The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – HOW TO TELL IF SOMEONE IS LYING: GAVIN STONE REVEALS THE METHODS USED BY GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATIONS & INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES TO DETECT LIES! by GAVIN STONE

Episode Date: January 20, 2024

HOW TO TELL IF SOMEONE IS LYING: GAVIN STONE REVEALS THE METHODS USED BY GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATIONS & INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES TO DETECT LIES! by GAVIN STONE https://amzn.to/3U8cpF0 Would you like to learn the techniques to spot the lies and get to the truth? How to tell if someone is lying will teach you the methods used by the best in the world for deception detection. You will learn about the psychology behind why people lie or hide truth, and then how to spot it using Stone's technique of CCA or Combined Communication Analysis. This takes into account, body language, non-verbal cues, psychology, the analysis of statements and other factors that brings them all together, to allow you to spot a lie! The step by step methods will teach you simple techniques to master all of the various methods and bring you toward reaching expert level, making you confident in using them all simultaneously, with ease. In this powerful book you'll discover actionable skills that will deliver instant results, such as: The only two reasons people tell a lie! How to easily read the body language in other people. Speed-read people, decipher body language, detect deception, and get to the truth. Learn skills used by professional law enforcement, MI6, CIA, FBI and the US military. How to spot the verbal signs that prove someone is being dishonest. The questions to ask to instantly reveal guilt. Mastering CCA (Combined Communication Analysis - created by Gavin Stone) Techniques that will get you to a full confession and discover what the truth really is How to apply these techniques in various situations throughout your life, whether dealing with your partner, parents, colleagues, or friends And so much more! How To Tell If Someone is lying is a ground-breaking, honest, down-to-earth, and easy to apply must-read for anyone who wants to learn the art of deception detection. Like Stone, it’s the real deal.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com.

There you go. Ladies and gentlemen, she does that so elegantly. I just love how she delivers that line. Maybe I'll just have her sing the whole show. I'll just give her the questions, and she can operatically deliver the show, as it were. And then we'll force the guests to respond in an operatic voice fashion. They have to sing all their answers when they come on the show. Does that sound good, Gavin?

Should we force guests to do that? Definitely not me. Anybody else, feel free. There you go. So, guys, we have an amazing guest on the show, as always we do. The CEOs, the billionaires, the White House advisors, the Pulitzer Prize winners, the most amazing authors in the world that come to you and bring you the distilled version of their amazing stories that make you just go, I'm buying five of their books.

So, there you go. Go to goodreads.com, 4chesschrisfoss, linkedin.com, 4chesschrisfoss, chrisfoss1 on the tickety-tockety and chrisfossfacebook.com. I think I said them all. I don't know. I can't remember. Anyway, we have an amazing multi-book author on the show. Gavin Stone is going to be joining with us.

He wrote the books, How to Tell if Someone is Lying. Well, Chris Voss' show is on. No, I'm just kidding. He's talking. How to Tell if Someone. Cut it right, Chris. Jesus. How to Tell if Someone is Lying.

Gavin Stone reveals the methods used by government organizations and intelligent agencies to detect them their lies. It doesn't say them their lies. Stop it, Chris. It's to detect lies, folks. You'll find it. There's a link on the Chris Foss show. It comes out July 31st, 2022. And he's also written a novel.

It's called The Unforgiven Spy. Book one in the Spies for Hire series came out November 12th, 2022. Boy, he was really prolific in 2022. Were you writing during COVID? Was that what it was? Yeah, I'm a load of other things as well. There you go. Gavin Stone served as a security and intelligence covert specialist. He has over 20 years of applied experience globally deployed by government organizations such as the British Ministry of Defense, corporations, and ultra high net worth vips his specialty is human intelligence otherwise known as human i'm having some humans now they're really tasty a little bit of mint with some

hummus within it he was adept at the full required spectrum of tradecraft skills of particular note is stone's expertise in surveillance and anti-surveillance together with the time-sensitive human analysts in high-risk dynamic situations. Welcome to the show, Gavin. How are you? Thank you. I am blessed. Any day above ground is a good one.

There you go. The British Ministry of Defense. So what was it like hanging out with James Bond? Ah. Yeah, no. I'm just kidding. We can't talk about James Bond. He said otherwise he'd have to kill me. So Gavin, give us your dot coms. Where can

you find people on the intermix? I just basically stick to social media, LinkedIn, so I'm on Facebook, Gavin Stone author, Twitter, I think he's at author Gavin on YouTube. Have you ever hung out with that Q person or M? I've hung out with the real life version of Q, the quartermaster. He was a very good friend of mine introduced to me by a guy who was the chef.

Always get to know the chef. He's the man who has control of the food and who gets the good stuff and who doesn't. That's what I used to always say in prison. I don't know what that means, but it sounded good in my head. So you've written these two books. Let's launch into one here. How to tell if someone's lying. So I imagine you've incorporated a lot of the techniques you used working for the queen to do a lot of this.

Tell us if people are lying. Yeah. are lying yeah so it's it's something i've done called combined communication analysis where it's a mixture of psychology body language statement analysis all put together to be able to kind of get a grip and we've had some body language experts on the show body language is a is a really interesting sport where you can tell non-verbal cues you know and you can read what people are telling you sometimes it's not what people say it's what they're doing maybe is that true yeah definitely those can be some of the biggest tells you know you're looking for any kind of change the so tell us about your kind of career

what went into it how you got how why'd you get into that sort of trade it was it was accidental it was a friend of mine from knocking on the door and got me into a you get into that sort of trade it was it was accidental it was a friend of mine from knocking on the door and got me into a world of stuff that i didn't know anything about and um how it works on fridays yeah so i ended up doing a job for him just finding somebody found him pretty quick and and he was like you're pretty handy at this and it just literally grew legs from there there you go and you go to work for the queen mom and her intelligence agency or what used to be the queen mom, God rest her soul, or however you guys say it in England there. And now you're stuck with, I don't know what you're stuck with. There's an old horse in there somewhere.

Charlie. Sounds like you're going to have a problem. That's why we defected over here in us Yankees. So give us more of a 30,000 overview of what's inside the book and what you're serving up to folks. Okay, so with this book, it's different to your normal body language books where it's just going to kind of tell you what a particular movement or action means. This teaches you how to observe it, how to become a master of it,

and then how to kind of bit by bit learn it until you're proficient in it. There you go. That's what I want to do. I want to be good at when people lie to me so that I can immediately go, Aha! You're full of shit, as George Carlin used to say. And learning body language and nonverbal cues, I suppose eye movement probably has something to do with it. One of my problems is I don't like to look

at some people when I talk to them, but it's not because I'm trying to be deceptive. It's just because they're ugly. That's usually when I'm looking in the mirror practicing a speech. I can fully relate there, but my mother always said I've got to face the radio. When it comes to eye-accessing cues, I mean, yeah, it is something that you don't have to spend all the time staring at them. And in fact, there's this common misconception as well when it comes to eye contact that if somebody's staring at you and they can't maintain eye contact that they're lying but it's actually it's more the other way around a liar will maintain that constant eye contact during the the kind of telling of the lie and afterwards to see if you'll believe in them they're watching taking always making sure that

you are buying the buying the system see that's what i do i just lie and look off the thing and i just don't care if you believe my life's the best way to breathe yeah i'm just like i don't maybe they'll buy this i don't i don't care i'm just making up over here but yeah that's really interesting because i suppose someone who's trying to hit you as a mark you know they're they're trying to lie to you deceive you gaslight you they're looking to see if their little action's working then yeah all the time so now you mentioned there's two reasons people tell a lie only two only two two primary reasons everything will go back to those two primary reasons so what are they can you tease what they are i can so there's quite simply protect protection or gain everything that they do is either for protecting themselves or someone else

or gain one way or another, whether it's monetary gain, whether it's a psychological situation where they're just feeling good from the gain of telling the lie. It all comes down to those two. There you go. And I've met people, I've had two people that I've met in life

and I believe they were narcissists. I mean, like real narcissists. People quit accusing every one of your ex-boyfriends of being narcissists. There's a clinical thing, and there's only like, I think it's like 5% of people. So, I've met two people that were like profound liars. Like, who's that liar that recently got kicked out of Congress? And just everything. Probably on your end too of the, of the, of the pond, as they say in the house of Lords. Um, but we, we just had some guy get kicked out of Congress and like everything he says is a lie.

We had a president that way too recently. And, but I met two people in my life that they they they just it lied was lying was like a sport it seemed but then also they had built you could you could see after a while the stack of cards that they had built and it was their life really and what they would tell people about their life and it was a stack of cards were this little lie and that little lie and this build this stack of lies and this stack of lies and they would have to constantly maintain their lies and make sure everyone was a buy-in to their lies and of course i would just look and be like i just accept you as a mentally challenged idiot person and i'm just doing this

for i don't know the make-a-wish foundation or something it's just charitable for me to listen to whatever bullshit you're selling today and they would repeat them over and over again it was kind of interesting but their whole life was a lie everything was built and and it just was stacks and stacks and i used to sit and look at it just be like jesus if i could convince them that this one part right this one card right here was a lie that whole thing just comes crumbling down. It was like interesting to see the intricacy of how all molded together. You ever met people like that? I have.

And usually it comes down to some kind of a personality trait where sometimes it can be through some kind of trauma or any kind of thing where they just want to converse with somebody. They want to be popular. They want to connect. So, so they just can't help themselves from, from lying and it becomes habitual because they're just to get this dopamine

rush from from having the you know the conversation where somebody's paying attention so so they're getting into this kind of you know habit of lying about absolutely everything because it pays dividends for them with the the chemical rush that their brain gets from it you know yeah and one of them was the one who tried to date me and the the lies that she would tell were so insane like they were so illogically out there like you're just like you you you must be used to talking to really stupid people because no one of any sort of base knowledge of operation of the world would believe that, you know, like I'll just make up something here.

Cause some of our lives were about business and, you know, just like, it was like me telling you that the sun is the color purple at all times. And it doesn't really emit heat. The moon does, you know, stuff like that,

where any common lay person can be like,'s full of shit but you know those sort of spinsters lies yeah and of course we live in a world where it's kind of considered rude to call somebody out or just to be argumentative you do get you get some people who will just say don't believe you you know and that's it and they don't care about the consequences and then you get some people who will just say, don't believe you. And that's it. And they don't care about the consequences. And then you get other people who they will wait until that person walks away and they go, did you hear that? That was absolute crap. But, yeah, because of the social norms of society,

we tend to kind of let these people live their life and then just laugh at them afterwards. Yeah, I try and call people on the show. I mean, I don't call them a liar. I'm just like, what you just said is so full of shit,'s not even funny but i'll be like no hang on whoa we're not platforming that what no here's here's here's the correction to to what you just said this doesn't happen very often but it's interesting um because you know it's it's amazing you know you'll see you'll see that and you're just like where have are you at in your life? One of the things you talk about in your book is mastering the CCA,

and this has been created by you. Tell us what that is and what it means. So what we're looking at with CCA is a mixture of as much information as you can take in when you're observing somebody. So you're looking at their blink rate. You're looking at their eye accessing cues. You're looking at their breath location, whether they're chest breathing or belly breathing, the rate of their breathing if you can so you're looking at their body language and you're also listening to the spoken word

because that means a lot in the statement analysis side of things and the psychology area so you're taking in all this information and then you're trying to decide is there a cluster or pattern of red flags, if you want to call them that, to indicate deception. So it's a bit of a stacking that gives you the tip-off too, huh? Yeah. A stacking of different cues. Exactly. So if somebody, for example, they're asking questions,

and question number one, everything's normal, question number two, everything's normal, you get to question number three, and all of a sudden their voice tone changes their blink rate goes up they're talking you know the breath location changes they cross their legs and fold their arms and and then answer with a non-answer then all of a sudden you're like okay something's very different there that's a hell of a lot of red flags and non-denial than all as they say in politics so that's really interesting looking at the stacking the cues the now you talk about how to get people to techniques to get to a

full confession and discover what their what the truth really is so you you have ways to kind of dig people out and be like maybe help them realize well at least they're full of shit or at least you figure out what the truth is, like how to get to the bottom of it. Do you have to fly them with black helicopters into Poland in an underground bunker and waterboard them for that? Yeah, tow them some water, and you generally get anyone to say anything.

No, I'm just kidding. So what you want to do is kind of sit the person down calmly, and I can't go too deep into the intricacies cause it'll just take forever. Yeah. People you buy the book, right? Yeah. Yeah.

But the most important thing is not to let them give any kind of denial, you know, cut them off with any kind of denial and just say, look, we'll get, we'll get to it. Don't worry. Let them know,

you know, that it's, it's fine. Whatever's happened is it's fine. And we can, it's a fixable problem. And, and kind of don't be calling them out

on something you know like if you turn around and go ah you're full of shit they're just going to deny it so I'm sorry can I swear on here? Yeah you can Not the BBC Oh no there is that bonus I'm saying nothing

So yeah they'll go into kind of some mule mode if you, if you call them out and they'll kind of back up, you'll make it worse for yourself. Ah, so how do you, how do you, well, we'll have people buy the book that I think that's important because we

got it. We want to talk about your second book here. So we want to squeeze that in as well. The, so I love this idea. I need to get better at, cause I always felt like sometimes I just want to walk around with one of those lie detector tests. You know, like in the Fockers movie.

Yeah. Hook people up to it and be like, now tell me your story. Maybe we should do it on the show. Maybe we should have everyone, including me, hooked up to a lie detector test. And then we interview them on the show. That would be an interesting show maybe, huh? A lie detector podcast. In the back of the book, it tells you how to beat one oh it does wow all right i'm still digging that hole in the

backyard for my last enemy so i may want to buy the book today and get that shit over so i can deal with that but there you go so check out that book folks how to tell when someone is lying this is really important. Of course, if you're married, I think we all know what's going on there. Your other book, The Forgiven Spy, book one in the Spies for Hire series. Tell us about this book. So The Unforgiven Spy started off as something many, many years ago. It was kind of a drunken concept when it was a family Christmas. you know I heard from when I'd been doing

training you know you should write a book you should write a book and I was actually talking to my mother-in-law about it you know she said oh well you should you know she's actually a writer and so it was kind of you know she was prompting me to actually give it a go of course after Christmas I went home I thought yeah why not I sat there and I plonked out this kind of 50,000, 60,000 word, what I thought was a book. And I emailed it over to her. I said, there you go. There's nothing to this writing malarkey.

Have a look at that. And she said, no, that's not a book. That's a report. Oh! Yeah. So I got seriously insulted. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

She didn't hold back at all. Yeah. So she sent it back to me with a lot of tips without vaseline and said you know you really need to get better at this so i took writing courses and very very many attempts failed attempts and and uh kind of educational lessons later i finally got a manuscript together there you you go. You said tips without Vaseline. That's all I'm going to say about that. So give us a 30,000-hour review. What's inside the book and kind of a synopsis, if you will.

Okay. So it's about a contractor, which is mainly what I've done throughout my career, is contracted for different employers, whether it's been like the intelligence agencies, the British government, the American government, or private clients, that kind of thing. So it's about a contractor who works in intelligence, and when his daughter's born, he decides to take a back seat and not work in the field anymore. The problem is one of his former enemies comes

and kind of wants a bit of revenge and takes his wife and daughter. Oh. Yeah, so he has to deal with that, get them back, and then bring the whole thing to an end. So he wanted them back? No, I'm just kidding. I'm just being sure. I can't say.

Oh, you had to read the book to find out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It sounds like an old Rodney Dangerfield. Take my wife, please. Or wait, that was somebody before that, black and white era. God, I can't place the comedian. Anyway, here it sounds like you incorporated into the book a lot of your experience in the intelligence business

and used some of those, the tradecraft and stuff that you were aware of, and probably your experiences over 20 years maybe. Yeah, yeah. So I've taken different things from different experiences in my life and put them all together in one story so everything is written from first-hand experience um the tradecraft revelations in there are more there's more tradecraft revelations in that book than any other book i've ever known i've deliberately crammed it in to try and get it banned so we go straight to number one uh so and and everything in there like i I say, the continuity, 100%. If I say a website exists, it does. If I say this place exists, it does.

The only thing that's not kind of true, as it were, is the bit about the wife and daughter getting kidnapped. I've never paid anybody to make that happen yet. Not yet. There's still time. Yeah. The girlfriend once who would come home from work and she never had any interesting stories,

and I thought I should have you kidnapped just so you could go home someday and have a really cool story to tell me. Some people are really fucking boring. They just need to be kidnapped. I think there's a shirt I'm making that says that. Yeah, I think I bought my brother a shirt which says, fat people are harder to kidnap. That's why, Overy.

Yeah, you got to, if you're going to put me in the van, you got to make sure the shock absorbers are upgraded and that thing. And you're going to need a big bag to go over my head. And I need those double size handcuffs. Don't ask me how I know. Anyway, that sounded really weird. Like that meant to me, imply that I've been arrested a lot, but that actually sounded weird the other way. So backfiring on me on there.

Roll with it. Yeah. Yeah. That's what she said. That's what I mean. That's what my mistress made. Mr. Is a mistress that whatever my BDSM mistress said,

let's roll with it. I think roll with it as my safe word. All right. I'm just rolling on the jokes today. Sorry. I had to really enjoy that joke. Sometimes they just come right off and you're just like, wow, that was good. I should write that down.

Anything more we need to know about the Unforgiven? Why is this guy Unforgiven? Sounds like a Metallica song. That would actually probably give the whole story away. What I will say is it's written in a unique way that's different to a lot of your

usual spy stuff. So you've got these kind of tradecraft sections in it. So if, and I wrote it deliberately this way, so if you've got your seasoned kind of spy-fi readers, they can look past those little bits and just stick to the novel. Whereas if you've got somebody who kind of is new to this, and they go, well, what's a skiff?

What's this mean? And each and every way through it will explain what the tradecraft is, why it's done a particular way or not done another way, and that kind of thing. So it can be written as a field manual as well if you wanted to. There you go. Well, tell me how to beat a

lie test. The first book does. Buy the first book for that and give the tradecraft secrets to the other one. So very interesting and fun to have you on the show, Gavin. Anything more you want to pitch out on the show as we go out? Am I allowed to plug my YouTube channel?

Please, yeah. Anything you want. Fantastic, because what I do, I get a load of friends from the intelligence community where they come on to the YouTube channel, and it could be FBI, KGB, CIA, and we all come on and we all have a chat about what kind of stories from the field,

things we've done and kind of operations, things that have gone wrong, things that have gone right, and all the good laughs, all the good chuckles, because it never goes right. That's true. I mean, nothing ever flies perfectly, especially when you're doing something like that. The most people in timelines and people with guns,

I'm sure, you know, they're always not, they're always not a voluntary to like, yeah, we'll just roll over for this. So there you go. What's been fun.

Gavin, now you show, give us your.com. So we can find you on the interwebs, please. Certainly. So Twitter is Gavin Stone Author. I'm on LinkedIn.

I think if you just type in Gavin Stone, I should be pretty much close to the top. Facebook, again, is Gavin Stone Author. And YouTube is Gavin Stone Author. I've got a correction to make. Twitter is at Author Gavin, I believe. There you go. Thank you very much, Gavin, for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. No problem. Thank you for having believe. There you go. Thank you very much, Gavin, for coming on the show.

We really appreciate it. No problem. Thank you for having me. There you go. Order of the book, folks, wherever fine books are sold. How to tell if someone is lying. Gavin Stone reveals the methods used by governments, organizations, intelligence agencies to detect lies

and the unforgiving spy. Book one in the Spies for Hire series. Is there a second one in the works yet that you're working on? I'm working on parts two and three simultaneously. There you go. You're going to turn that into a whole Jack Ryan thing. We've had all those authors on.

They're great. Thanks for coming by the show. Thanks for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com, FortressCrisfoss, LinkedIn.com, FortressCrisfoss, Crisfoss1 on the TikTokity, and CrisfossFacebook.com. Be good to each other. Stay safe, Fortress Chris Voss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress Chris Voss, Chris Voss1 on the TikTokity, and chrisfossfacebook.com. Be good to each other, stay safe, and we'll see you guys next time.