The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – How to Walk into a Room: The Art of Knowing When to Stay and When to Walk Away by Emily P. Freeman

Episode Date: March 1, 2024

How to Walk into a Room: The Art of Knowing When to Stay and When to Walk Away by Emily P. Freeman https://amzn.to/3P1EiuU If life were a house, then every room holds a story. What do we do when a room we’re in is no longer a room where we belong? What do you do when you start to feel a shift and must decide if it’s time to make a change? When it comes to navigating big decisions about when to stay and go, how can we know for sure when the time is right? Though we enter and exit many rooms over the course of our life—jobs, relationships, communities, life stages—knowing how and when it’s time to leave is a decision that rarely has a clear answer. Podcast host, spiritual director, and bestselling author of The Next Right Thing, Emily P. Freeman offers guidance to help us recognize when it’s time to move on from situations that no longer fit, allowing us to find new spaces where we can flourish and grow. How to Walk Into a Room helps us begin to uncover the silent, nuanced, and hidden arrows for anyone asking questions like: How do I know if it’s time to move on? What if I stay and nothing changes? What if I leave and everything falls apart? Through thought-provoking questions, spiritual practices, and personal stories, How to Walk into a Room will help you to know and name the caution flags in your current spaces, discern the difference between true peace and discomfort avoidance, navigate endings even when there is no closure, find peace for when you feel ready but it isn’t time, and courage for when it’s time but you don’t feel ready. For anyone standing in a threshold, here’s a book to help discern the how, when, and what now of walking out of rooms and into new ones with peace, confidence, and a whole heart. About the author Emily P. Freeman is the Wall Street Journal bestselling author of five books, including The Next Right Thing: A Simple, Soulful Practice for Making Life Decisions. As a spiritual director, workshop leader, and host of The Next Right Thing podcast, her most important work is to help create soul space and offer spiritual companionship and discernment for anyone struggling with decision fatigue. Emily holds a master’s degree in spiritual formation and leadership from Friends University. She lives in North Carolina with her family.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from the chrisvossshow.com. There you go, ladies and gentlemen. The Iron Lady sings, and that makes it official. Welcome to the big show.

We certainly appreciate you guys coming by today. As always, the Chris Voss Show, we bring you some of the smartest and brightest minds in the world. The CEOs, the billionaires. We've got another billionaire, evidently, we're scheduling for the show coming up. The Pulitzer Prize winners, the White House presidential advisors, the people who write amazing stories and books and thought leaders that can change your life, motivate you to do better, give you the tools that you need to overcome adversities and all that good stuff. And you just leave with what we call the Chris Foss Show Glow. I haven't done that bit in a while, have I? The Chris Foss Show Glow.

It's a beautiful thing that can come to you in not only coffee. natural aphrodisiac that comes from coffee, the Chris Voss Show Glow, or listening to the show and just getting imparted all the brilliant mind knowledge nuggets that come from our amazing authors on the show. That all came together that I just made up, right? Yeah, there you go. So we have an amazing author on the show, but in the meantime, we demand one thing and one thing only. You must have five people in your downline of the Chris Voss Show. So refer your family to friends and relatives. Go to goodreads.com, chris voss linkedin.com fortress chris voss chris voss one on the tiktokity and chris voss facebook.com she is the author of the newest book that has just come out we're going to be talking to her about that book and everything that is inside of it it's called how to walk into a Room, The Art of Knowing When to Stay

and When to Walk Away. Emily P. Freeman joins us on the show. She's a Wall Street journal bestselling author, and we're going to get into it with her. She is the bestselling author of six books, in fact, including The Next Right Thing, How to Walk into a Room, of course, and as a spiritual director and workshop leader, her most important work is to help create soul space and offer spiritual companionship and discernment for anyone struggling with decision fatigue. With over 25 million downloads, her short-form narrative podcast, The Next Right Thing, offers clarity and direction for anyone who wants to move forward beyond the pro-con list in decision-making.

She holds a master's degree in Christian spiritual formation and leadership from Friends University, where she also serves as a residency lecturer. She lives in North Carolina with her family and all that good stuff. Welcome to the show, Emily. How are'm so good chris thanks for having me thanks for coming we really appreciate having you give us your dot coms where can people find you on the interwebs it's everywhere it's emily p freeman don't forget the p there is another emily freeman who does similar work so she's b and p so emilypfreeman.com instagram is at emilypfreeman.com. Instagram is at emilypfreeman. There you go. And your book just came out. So congratulations on that. Actually, it comes out March 12th, 2024.

That's right. There you go. A little late in pulling up on the Amazon there. So you can pre-order it now wherever fine books are sold, folks. So give us, Emily, 30,000 overview of your new book and what's inside. You know, this is one of those books that I have kind of had in the back of my mind for a while. Five years ago, I released a book called The Next Right Thing, same title as my podcast. And that is really all about decision making,

kind of like simple tools for practices, for making decisions in everyday life. But what I found the last five years talking with people who listened to the podcast, who read that book, is that the decisions that tend to give us the most trouble are the ones where we're deciding to either stay where we are in a job, a vocation, a community, or move on to something else. And so I thought, you know what, I think we could use a whole book to talk about this. There you go. And helping people make those decisions, square those in their minds and figure out the best way to make those travails. remember when i was young there was a there was a line from billy joel song and i think it was from um it'll come to me but it was it was a line that said life is a series of hellos and goodbyes i'm

afraid it's time for goodbye again i won't sing it because i'm not going to butcher billy joel jesus on the show no one wants to see that folks but it was a great line because it it said something home to me that you know you it was a great line because it said something home to me that, you know, you can't, you know, I was, I think it was in high school all the time or a little post high school and you know how your friends kind of fall away in high school and you're like, geez, I thought, you know, we were going to be ride and die friends for life, all those people. And it may, it kind of prepared me for life where, you know, life is a series of hellos and goodbyes. I'm afraid it's time for goodbye again. I think the song was Goodbye to Hollywood.

And so tell us more on how you came to write the book. There's three different chapters you have in it. You have the How to Walk into a Room, of course, is the part three. On Leaving, How to Walk Out of a Room. And then on Pausing, Discernment in Hallways. Talk to us about some of the different formats you decide on, how to decide to walk out of a room. It's a great question. The book is How to Walk Into a Room, but people have pointed out to me, two-thirds of the book is about walking out.

That's actually true. And that's on purpose is because I think sometimes we're mistaken when we think the beginning starts at the beginning. Like when we walk into a room, we've just walked out of a lot of rooms. And so how we walk into our next room is always going to be informed by how we walked out of the last one. And as I observed my own life and talk to people around me, I think, man, some of us are walking out way too soon or we're staying way too long or we're

burning bridges on our way out that really didn't need to be burned. And so, but it's so much fun though. It is, but sometimes there are consequences that we could have avoided. Jail time, maybe, but other than that, it's... For one, for one. I'm sorry. So, what are these rooms in your book? What decisions are we making and what are these rooms that we're leaving and entering?

You know, if life were a house, then every room holds a story. If we imagine our life as a house, I write in metaphors sometimes. Forgive me. I'm sorry. And you're welcome. Write some mobile home. Well, you know, they still have rooms. And I think that we all kind of understand the idea that, you know, every room is like our commitments, our relationships,

our vocation. These are all sort of types of rooms. And we all know there are rooms that are like, this is my room. You host this podcast. This is a room you're in. This is where you fit. You're good at it. You might also know the rooms that you're like, I stuck my foot in that room and it was not for me. And you know it immediately. But then there are those other rooms, maybe rooms we were born into, maybe rooms we've been in for a really long time, maybe rooms that we went to college to get into, or we fought really hard for, we prayed really hard for, and we got there. And then something happens, something shifts in us or in people around us, or just time passes and we start to wonder, I wonder if it's maybe time for me to move on.

And sometimes we don't know how to evaluate if it's time or not. And so my hope is to be able to offer people some questions, some rhythms, some ideas to begin to give you a framework and maybe not a formula, but a framework to start to figure that out for yourself. Yeah. And it gives you some self-reflection as to whether it's the right time or not. So some of these rooms could be relationships,

maybe a marriage, maybe a job. And I'm glad you wrote this book because normally the way I just deal with things when I think it's time to leave is I just fake my death and move to another state. So give us a little bit of background on you. You've written a lot of books. You've got a successful podcast. Tell us how you grew up and what kind of shaped you into talking about and writing about some of the things you've done. my forever home. This is the only home that ever will be. And then when I was around 11, my dad started to change his vocation and he went into radio, actually radio broadcasting. And so that took him from our little small town in Columbus, Indiana to Iowa, another small town in Iowa. But that started a series of moves for us, you know, Iowa, South Carolina, Michigan, my parents moved to Texas. So we moved all around. And that, like many people who've

moved around when they were kids, really formed my narratives about what it means to stay and go. I just thought, that's normal to move. People move all the time. When I got married to my husband, John, 22 years ago, we live in the same town right now where he was born, went to middle school, elementary school, middle school, high school. He went away for college, but now he's back. And so he's got a really different narrative about staying and going. And so do our kids who now were born here and they grew all the way up here. And so that's something that, you know, when I think about this decision about different rooms of our lives, you know, John and I, we share a life. But we have very different ideas about what it means to decide to leave or to stay because we have different life experiences.

Yeah. I had the same experience. My parents moved around when we were younger. You go to different schools. I think a lot of people I talk to in the show, if you're a military brat, you get moved around a lot. I think it builds some pretty interesting character and resilience in people. Sometimes it's really hard. You're just like, why do I have to move? I just made all these friends and now I got to be the new kid again, which is annoying. But I think it builds a resilience in you. It kind of teaches you maybe that life is transitory.

I don't know if that's the right word. It sounds like a bus station, but maybe it is. I like it though. I feel like if you made it up, I think it's excellent. There you go. Thanks for flattering and getting you everywhere. And so having, understanding how to deal with these things are important. So how to walk into, let's take a divorce or relationship. I think maybe a lot of people that is something you decide when to leave a relationship, maybe that's gone toxic or bad or making decisions or maybe a job. people that that is something you decide when to leave a relationship maybe that's gone toxic or bad or making decisions or maybe a job what are some of the factors that

you suggest in the book and how to analyze maybe if it's really time to go is is there any self accountability reflection where you go maybe you're the problem sometimes that's a fact i think it has to start with a practice of awareness. I'm glad you used that word self-reflection. I think that a lot of times, some of us, when we see a red flag, we like hightail it out of there. Like we leave it the first sign of trouble. Others of us see a red flag and we immediately like, it's nothing. It'll get better.

But I had a friend tell me years ago when I was questioning a particular job and I had the tiniest red flag about it. I was like, I don't know. I think it's fine. But I just had this little question. And she said, Emily, tiny red flags rarely shrink. They only grow. And I have found that to be true in relationships, in jobs, in almost everything. But one thing that I've learned since then is that not every hesitation is a tiny red flag.

And so that's where I would say if you're in a, let's say, a job that you're starting to get uncomfortable in, I think the first thing to do is not to make your decision, should I stay or go? It's too soon. First, you have to look around the room, let's just use the metaphor, of that job and begin to name and list, what do I see? What's good and beautiful here? Did I choose this place? Did it choose me? How long have I been here? And since list, what do I see? What's good and beautiful here? Did I choose this place? Did it choose me? How long have I been here? And since then, who has the power? How has the power dynamic changed? If I leave, who will it impact? If I stay, who will be impacted? There's lots of questions we can begin to ask as a first step to determine, is this hesitation truly a red

flag? And if so, it's probably going to grow. Or is it maybe just a yellow flag to slow me down and help me maybe name, oh, I thought I had to quit. But in fact, I just had to like change my hours. Like that sometimes is a fact if you slow yourself down and evaluate your surroundings. Yeah. There was a story I heard one time. I think it was Anthony Romney told a story about a neighbor who moved into a new neighborhood. And after a few months, the wife wanted to move.

And the neighbor said, why? You just moved in here. And the guy says, you know, my wife, she's unhappy. People don't like her here. She doesn't feel wanted, et cetera, et cetera. And he asked her, has she done anything to reach out to the community? No, no one's approached her. No one's brought anything to the house.

No one's offered friendship. And so if she'd gone out and tried to make friends, she got to meet with local communities or, you know, release societies or whatever. No, she just stays at home and no one reached out to her. And so it was, it was kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I think it's good to have those analyzations where, you know, sometimes you're just not asking the right questions in life or maybe sometimes you're not communicating effectively. I've been in, you know, I've had relationships or jobs where sometimes I'm not communicating effectively and it helps if maybe, you know, I just grab somebody that throw it at the office and communicate effectively with them. And then things seem to change. Don't do that. Right. Imagine that. It's fun being the CEO of

your own company. Yeah. Yeah. HR calls and you just fire them. Don't do that. Right. Imagine that. It's fun being the CEO of your own company. Yeah. Yeah. HR calls and you just fire them. Don't do that people. But so, so you help people analyze, you know,

what, what's good, what's bad, the downsides, the good, the bad, and the ugly, what, what can happen to them if they,

if they do these things, because there are people who will make a lot of bad decisions. You know, I've talked to people recently that, you know, they, they regret the decisions they made. And I'm like, did you know i've talked to people recently that you know they they regret the decisions they made and i'm like did you really didn't think this through did you because it's pretty obvious the rest of us yeah and it's it's interesting because there are a lot

of us who you know i have a podcast called the next right thing and and i really talk mainly to the chronically hesitant among us but then there's a whole nother group of people who are very decisive people and and they don't some of them listen but not all of them do i probably have more chronically hesitant among us. But then there's a whole nother group of people who are very decisive people. And, and they don't, some of them listen, but not all of them do. I probably have more of the chronically hesitant, those who are struggling with decision fatigue. But it's funny, because the people who say they are decisive when it comes to just regular decisions in life, there's something they all have in common, because I've surveyed the audience. And, and what they say is, I've just learned that most

decisions, not all, but most decisions are not permanent. And I know that I, these decisive people say, I would rather make the decision to be done with it than live with that tension of an unmade decision. Whereas those who are chronically hesitant tend to say, I would rather live with the tension of an unmade decision because once I make it, it feels so final and I'm worried that it might be a mistake. So it's just sort of a different mindset. Really? So there's technically two groups of people that are like that, where some people can make that decision really quick and some people are more hesitant. Is that what I understand?

I think so. I think so. And I would encourage if you're one who is more chronically hesitant, I think that allowing yourself the time it takes, it takes you to make the decision, but maybe borrowing a friend or a family member or someone you trust, someone I call a co-listener,

someone who can listen to you and understand, you know, they kind of know you, they know your core values, they know what matters to you, but maybe they're more of a decisive person and maybe borrow some of their courage to make your decision. And then for those who are more decisive, I think sometimes they can get a little decision happy and maybe

move a little too quick. And I think those people could maybe borrow a co-listener and practice patience and allow themselves. There's some people who like, they don't even take till the deadline to make their decision. They just make it that day. But maybe give yourself to the deadline to make the decision because sometimes we do have a little bit of time. And I think that can be helpful for people who are more quick to make decisions. Definitely.

Think through your decisions a bit more and flush them out and weigh them. And thought provoking questions are a great way to do that. I think in the book, you talk about spiritual practices and things. Do you talk about any of that? I do, absolutely. I think we all have a unique spiritual personality. And really by that, I just mean a way that we connect with spirit, the way we connect with God, the way that we come most alive in the world. And sometimes I think we can get ourselves into trouble when we look at the way other people connect, and we think that's the only one right way to do it. And that's going to hinder our ability to hear our own heart, to consider what

we most deeply want, and to discern our next right thing. And so, I think one spiritual practice that I engage, and by the way, when I say spiritual practice, really I just mean anything that helps you become more fully yourself, that helps you kind of put yourself in the path of God. And sometimes we think of prayer and journaling and things that are very formal, and of course those count. But I would also say taking a walk in the woods can be a spiritual practice. Having a beautiful conversation with someone you love can be a spiritual practice. Anything can be a spiritual practice if you a beautiful conversation with someone you love can be a spiritual practice. Anything can be a spiritual practice if you do it in the presence of God. And so those are things that as we engage those things,

they help us get to know ourselves and they help us trust ourselves and show up at the table as a person whose voice counts when it comes to decision-making. I like to walk in the woods because that's usually where I bury most of my bodies from the decisions that I made when I walked out of a room.

Oh, and most of the spiritual contact I do is usually with bourbon or vodka. So lots of spirits there. Sure. Different kind of spirits, but spirit nonetheless. It's hard being an atheist. So there you go. But, you know, connecting to all these different things, you know, the worst thing you can do is make a decision and say, I'm going to leave.

Hell with all this. And, you know, you just throw up your hands one day and you jump to conclusions. I've seen that with relationships. In fact, everyone leaves me that way. But in jobs, you know, I'll see people, they'll explode and they'll just, you know, whatever they've, you know, it's been boiling inside them. They'll just explode one day and then they cause a scene. And then later they're like, Hey, I really didn't mean to have that blow up and cause

that scene at work. And you're like, it's too late, buddy. That shit was stale, man. Yeah. You know? And, and a lot of stuff is really about, I don't know, would you say perspective, trying to get the right perspective on where you're at in the room. And, you know, because there's some times like in business where, you know, I'm like, this sucks what I'm doing.

I don't like this. Or this isn't working very well. And, you know, recently I was looking at one of our business models and thinking, you know, this is really annoying me. I don't know what to do with this thing. And then an epiphany came to me about an idea of it. And I'm like, holy shit, there's a whole profit. There's a whole profit mine right underneath this thing that I wasn't even paying attention to because I wasn't asking the right questions.

And, you know, there's, there's a whole different thing I can do with this. And here it is been staring me in the face the whole time. Right. And so sometimes maybe you need to have mirrors in all these rooms. So you can. Absolutely. I mean, that's actually, I actually love that because I think about in our room, sometimes there's, we need a mirror to self-reflect. Sometimes we need a window to kind of see what's possible, but we're not quite ready to walk out yet.

Other times it's a door. It's okay. Yeah. I'm ready to leave. And sometimes you're just staring at the wall. Like you don't even know what's ahead and you feel a little bit lost. But I do think that practice of self-reflection, two questions I like to ask myself when I'm thinking about making a decision, you know, like you mentioned a job or vocation or even have the

company be the person, you know, who's making the decision and let the company kind of self-reflect, if you will. And you look at like for this project that I'm working on, if it were to reflect on the last three to six months, what would it say was most life-giving to itself? And what was most life draining? What drained the life out of this business? And what gave life to this business? And when you really start to get specific and I'm saying like, write it down, like we can, sometimes we do stuff in our head and we're like, Oh, I can think it in my head. No, write it down. Cause that there's something embodied about being able to write these things down and see when we did this thing, it worked really well. And people really

responded well to this and write those things down and then write down this flopped this financially, you know, was we were in the hole afterwards. And really taking regular time. I'm talking either monthly or 90-day quarterly. And of course, annually. We tend to do annually, but sometimes it's too late if you wait till the end of the year. But those things can help you know when it's time to go. It's not like a surprise you show up to. It's like it dawns on you over time.

And it just becomes your next right thing because you're so aware. It's like it dawns on you over time and it just becomes your next right thing because you're so aware of what's happening in the company or in your life, whatever it is you're reflecting on, that it's not a big surprise. And I think that's sometimes we get ourselves into trouble. I feel like in the United States or maybe globally, we have this idea that we wait till December to reflect on the year and we're like, what worked this year and what didn't? If I wait till December to reflect on February, man, I could have had a whole different spring and summer and fall.

Like, so I love, you know, speaking of spiritual practice, I think that's a spiritual practice, even if you're doing it for business or whatever it is you're working on, because it helps you become more aware. It helps you become more integrated with who you are and what you really want for this job relationship or community. There you go. So you need quarterly reports on your relationships. I think so. In your personal life, just like you do in business.

Absolutely. You need to meet with investors and be like, hey, here's what we're doing. I love it. I love it. I always keep, I was going to say, you mentioned having windows in rooms. That's usually how I go out of a room. I just go right out the window. Fly out the window. Yeah. I just run and fake my death. The part two, on pausing, discernment in hallways.

Talk to us a little bit about what that means and how that applies to what we've been chatting about. I think we all know what it's like to be in between spaces. Maybe you're between jobs or you've made the decision to leave a space. It was very clear, but you're not quite sure what's next. The hallway can be a really interesting tool. It can be a, it's a liminal space for many of us. It can be a frustrating space, but it can also be like a waiting room and waiting rooms aren't all bad. It can buy us time. It can help us learn more about ourselves and our surroundings. It can give us time to plan. And we don't all have the luxury of having the gift of a hallway, but I do think a hallway, there's burdens there too, but it can be a gift. But I would also

say that the goal in life is not to get out of every hallway that we're in and find the right rooms and lock the doors and paint the rooms the right color. We're going to die in some hallways. We just are. We're always in a hallway, in a new room and leaving an old room. That's just a fact. But I think the more we can make friends with that reality of this healthy human rhythm of life, I think the better off we're going to be. There you go. I love that analogy and learning to be comfortable in it. You know, I've been single, I've dated all my life. So you meet people that are, they get divorced. And like immediately they're trying to get back into another marriage.

And you're like, no, you have to go in from using your analogy. You have to go into the hallway for a while. That's right. And you've got to clean up. You've got to, you know, there's a grief process that goes on with marriages and longterm relationships. And so you've got to do the process of grief. You got to unpack all that crap. And then you got to,

and then you got to start figuring out who you are again. And, you know, you're, you've left behind this identity of, of what you were in your marriage with another person. And now you have to form a new identity of who you are as this new single person.

Yeah. And then you kind of have something that you can start, you know, looking to find a way to get into maybe another room of marriage or relationship is a good example. And so being in that hallway is a healthy space to be. And a lot of people, you know, you'll see people are panicking. And I'm just like. They're running through the hallways.

I love that. They're running in the hallway with their hair on fire screaming, I got to get into a room. And you're just like, no one wants you right now because your hair is on fire. You just got out of a room and you need to stay here in the hallway for a while. But I like how you make it okay that it's technically still a safe space. Same thing with the job, as you mentioned. You know, maybe you need to learn some new skills, maybe read some books, maybe reanalyze.

Do I really want to be a engineer? Maybe I want to, you know, go and pursue another career. A lot of people do that, you know, between jobs. That's right. They go, you know, maybe, why do I want to do this? We just had somebody on the show the other day. I think it was the guy, he was, I think it was the gentleman, he bought a, he bought a mine, a Silvertown mine, and and he went he'd gone to school for something i

don't remember what it was but it was just something that he spent all this money on acquired all this debt and then he went and did it and he goes i really hate this i think it was like banking or stock market or something and he's like i just hate this i don't want to do this and here he spent all this money and and all this stuff and so he was kind of i guess in his own sort of hallway where he was like what i want to do and he started playing with different things and then he opened a hostel which in austin and and then eventually it led to this weird opportunity of buying a silver mine town in california and you know he's it you know it became a viral thing back during COVID.

And now he's found his purpose in his life, and he's found what he needed. But he needed to leave that room that he'd entered and stay in the hallway for a while to figure out where he wanted to go, and now he's found the room that he wants to be in. Isn't that something? You know, I went to school to become a sign language interpreter,

and I learned American Sign Language. I did my internship. I graduated with that degree. I even spent a lot of money and a lot of time becoming nationally certified as a sign language interpreter. So I spent my time interpreting at graduations and different things. And it looked like that was my whole world. I learned this whole other language. And then I was doing it. I was doing it full time. And then I got pregnant with twins. And it was great. And having two babies at one time, keeping two humans alive. That was a whole journey. That's a room. That's a room, Chris. I had a friend who had twins, so I feel-

You know. Yeah, yeah. But over time, I realized this work of sign language interpreting, it just wasn't fitting my life anymore, but I had a really hard time letting go of it because I was a really good sign language interpreter. And I really loved it. But in order to remain, much like teachers, in order to continue doing it, I had to get these continuing education units. And I just didn't have the time or space. So I had to let it go. And I kind of came up with this mantra to help myself through it, which was the reality is just because you're good at something doesn't mean you

have to do it forever. And that's really helped me because I realized, you know, I think sometimes we think if you go to school for it, like, even though a lot of us, we know the world these days, like people go to school for one thing, and they end up doing something totally different. That's pretty normal. But I think that doesn't stop the narrative that's going on in our heads. I wasted my time, I wasted my money. No, you didn't. You did it. You learned something. You became a person. You changed. And now you might do something different. And that's okay. And I think it's good to normalize that. There you go. The biggest problem with the sign language business is most people just don't listen over there. Had to do that joke. There you go. You did it. You feel good about it?

I do. I do. I'll get hate mail later steve jobs did a thing where he he did he hated college and he didn't like any of it but the one thing is she quit and then he started slumming in college just just like going to classes that he wanted to do and one of them was a type a type what was called a type fitting class where you you learn calligraphy and different, different topographies, I guess, or designs of, of font and, and,

and stuff. And he really loved it. And, and he didn't really know what he was going to do with it, but it was what he was kind of learning in the hallway. And it, you know, that ability to write with word processors,

use different fonts and, and, and all those different things was the key to his success with the Mac. And so, like you mentioned, you go through these journeys of learning things and you never know how that's going to apply. And there's been so many things. To me, I tell people the most important thing I learned in school, typing. When I started my first company at 18, I would sit and be able to type the invoices and my business partner, I would take turns and he never learned typing. So he'd spend half the weekend

henpecking out invoices. We'd take turns each weekend and I'd just be like, wow, that was the most powerful class I ever learned was typing. I still remember. They don't teach it anymore. I still remember taking time. I loved that class. It was my senior year of high school, I think we took that. It was an excellent class. Yeah. So you can take stock of what you learn in the hallway and take it into the new rooms to do much better. And so, yeah, the last part of the book, you get into walking into the room. How to walk into the room.

Walk in as a leader. Walk in as a listener. Walk in as your own friend. Talk to us about some of these different things. We talk about leadership a lot on the show. Walking in as a leader, walk in as a listener, walk in as your own friend. Talk to us about some of these different things. We talk about leadership a lot on the show, walking in as a leader, maybe. Yeah. One thing that happened for me in the last four years is, so I, seven years ago or eight years ago now, I co-started a company for writers. It was an online membership community where we helped writers balance the art of writing with the business of publishing.

And it started out as a hobby, but as things go, it grew. It became successful. And what was kind of a side gig turned into a full-time job. And I'm a writer. I'm a creative. And so I was sort of the creative voice in the company. But over time, when something becomes successful, sort of your role, rather than being the frontline person of the more creative one, you kind of come back and you become more managerial. And that's kind of how it was for me. And I realized like my days were probably numbered in that business. So a year ago,

I sold my shares to one of my business partners, and I've been out of it for a year or so. But what I learned in that is that, you know, there's a way to be a leader when you're in charge. And then there's also a way you can be a leader even when you're not in charge. And so some of the rooms that I've been in since then, I'm not necessarily the co-owner of business, but there are rooms where I can learn and I can learn from my past mistakes as a leader who was in charge, but I can also show up as a leader leading myself in rooms where I may not be in charge, but I still have agency. And that's something that I think when every room we walk into, there's one person we always bring,

and it's ourselves. And it's so important to remember, to learn, what does it look like to lead myself first? I usually am trying to get away from me. So I slam the door real quick, leaving behind me, hoping that I left them in the hallway, but usually it's just my shadow. But I have issues and I'm probably schizophrenic. No, I'm just kidding. I'm not schizophrenic. Just sounded good for the joke folks. So yeah. And you're right. I, you know, I talked about this in my book, Beacons of Leadership. We can all be leaders, whether you're a parent, you don't have to have the title of leader. You don't have to be named CEO. You know, I see people in companies are like, I'm not the CEO, so I just don't care. And we all have those, like you said, agency. That was such a great word to be leaders,

to be leaders in our own space or what we're good at thinking. When you go into the meeting, you can be a leader in the format that you know, and you could bring that knowledge to the table and stuff. So lots of great things there. Tell us about some of the offerings you have on your website. I see some things here. There's your Substack newsletter. There's actually an app, your podcast, et cetera. Tell us about some things people can find there. Absolutely.

So I have a Substack called The Soul Minimalist where we kind of take what we talk about that week on the Next Right Thing podcast. And it's really for anyone who wants to move beyond the pro-con list. So we go a little bit deeper on sub stack weekly. So that's what that is the sole minimalist. And then I also have an app, it's called the quiet collection. And there's some free offerings inside the quiet collection. It's available on iTunes or for Apple products, or also for Android. And there's some free things, there's some, you know,

reflections and different offerings there. And then there's also some things. There's some, you know, reflections and different offerings there. And then there's also some, we do some things during Christmas time for people. It's sort of reflective, meditative, some prayers, things like that. And then the website, we have some courses available for decision making, as well as, you know, of course, the book, How to Walk into a Room, that's almost out into the world. There you go. I see one of the articles here on being okay when the lonely moment comes so how to find your way in the hallway the soul minimalist what happens if you don't have a soul i sold mine for this podcast and five dollars so then you're very minimal chris the most minimal

you can be yeah part of it was i listened to that minimalist so those two minimalist guys you know oh yeah i got you yeah and i'm like i don't need the soul man it's just weighing me down it's i have to get a u-haul every time i gotta move and stuff and i'm like yeah five bucks came up and they're like you can have a podcast i was like that sounds like a deal so there you go so wonderful things that they have there give us your final thoughts and tease on how people can pick up the book reach out to you etc etc so great to be here with you chris and i just you know for anyone who's standing in a threshold, I think in any part of our lives, we are standing in a threshold considering is it time for me to make a move?

And I think my one encouragement would be, I hope you're not afraid to ask the hard questions. I hope to offer a framework for people who are wanting to do that. So how to walk into a room, the art of knowing when to stay and when to walk away. There you go. What if I sneak out of a room and come back later when no one's looking? Is that healthy?

I'm still going with the fake my death part. So thank you very much, Emily, for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. And I think we got your dot com on the thing, didn't we, there at the final plug? EmilyPFreeman.com. There you go. Always about the plugs. Order the book, folks.

Wherever fine books are sold, it comes out March 12th, 2024. How to Walk Into a Room. The Art of Knowing When to Stay and When to Walk Away. I could probably use this on half the relationships where I broke up with people. Thank you, Emily, for coming on the show. Thanks a lot for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com for just Christmas. LinkedIn.com for just Christmas.

Christmas one on the TikTokity. All those Christmas, please. We're on the internet. Thanks for tuning in. Be good be good to each other stay safe and we'll see you guys next time