The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – I Am Machine: Life Without Free Will by Lex Van Der Ploeg, Raymond Van Aalst

Episode Date: December 29, 2025

I Am Machine: Life Without Free Will by Lex Van Der Ploeg, Raymond Van Aalst https://www.amazon.com/Am-Machine-Life-Without-Free/dp/1955026629 I Am Machine is an intriguing exploration of what it means to be human–and whether we truly have free will. This thought-provoking narrative will ignite your imagination while causing you to question what drives your own actions and decisions. Whether you’re interested in philosophy and science fiction or simply curious about the human experience, I Am Machine will engage your brain in a way unlike any other book in your personal library. Written from the perspective of an alien visitor to Earth named Ramona Black Hole, I Am Machine rationalizes human existence in the context of a universe filled with life. Throughout the book, Ramona, leader of the globular cluster Messier 13 galactic exploration team, describes life on Earth in the context of her prior planetary experiences, including those with other extraterrestrials she’s encountered. Although Ramona isn’t human, she has a lot of the same questions about life that humans have grappled with since their evolution on Earth. What does it mean to be alive? How much control do we truly have over our lives? What else is out there? Are there parallel universes and alternative realities that we aren’t aware of? Just what is possible in infinite space? Ramona has traveled broadly in our galaxy, the Milky Way, and shares her hypotheses about life and free will, but it’s up to you to decide what you think the universe holds. About the author Lex Van der Ploeg’s philosophical interests addressing life in our universe and collaboration with co-author Raymond Van Aalst, inspired the publications of “I Am Machine” and “God’s Retirement”. Having worked as a tenured faculty member at Columbia University and subsequently in leadership roles in the pharmaceutical and biotechnology industries, Lex’s expertise includes an active interest in teaching and training colleagues, development of diagnostics and therapeutics for cancer, neurodegenerative disorders, metabolic disorders, and infectious diseases. Lex received numerous grants and awards for his research and has broadly published on his research in peer reviewed journals.

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We've been doing this for 16 years. And my back is tired, people. One of the oldest podcasts still broadcasting after nearly 20 years. And Chris has broken back. And 2600 episodes, we're about to break into 2,700. We're on the way of 3,000, 2020, but that all just means to guilt and shame you to further show to your family, family, family, and relatives. Go to goodreads.com, for it says Chris Foss. LinkedIn.com, fordstst Chris Foss.

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We're going to be talking about his insights of books. We're going to get in maybe the possible endgame future of AI. And when I say end game, I mean the human race. so we're going to find out because someone has gone and researched and explored it and mapped out maybe how this all ends i mean humanity it was a good ride it was a good ride well lasted but you know we just invented our replacement anyway he's the author of the latest book to come out june 27th 2023 called i am machine life without free will we're going to be talking with lex Vanderpoo, Vanderplu, on the show.

And he's from Sweden, I believe. Sweden? Netherlands. Netherlands. Well, that was close. I mean, Sweden, Netherlands. Didn't it used to be Sweden? Or it was all Europe. Europe. Go back to the 14th century.

Yeah, yeah. I, you know, I lived through that time. So I turned 58 next year, so I'm feeling my age. But, yeah, I lived through that time. So there I was. Lex is his philosophical interests addressing life in our universe in collaboration with co-author Raymond Van Alst inspired the publications of I.M. Machine and God's retirement, having worked as a tenured faculty member at the Columbia University and subsequently in leadership roles in the

pharmaceutical and biotechnological industries, his expertise includes an active interest in teaching and training, colleagues, development of diagnoses and therapeutics for cancer, neurogenerative disorders, metabolic disorders, and infectious diseases that can be found on Twitter just by reading tweets. No, I'm kidding. I added that last part. Lex received numerous grants and awards for research and is broadly published in his research in peer-reviewed journals. Welcome to the show. How are you, Lex?

I'm looking forward to the discussion. Chris, what I've read about you is amazing, so I'm glad to be able to spend some time together. Don't believe everything they say, especially the bad stuff. I read about that too. Well, the good stuff is probably untrue. The bad stuff is probably true. So it looks like I skipped this at the end of the bio because I try and keep it short. But I think this is important.

In 2019, you founded R-I-F-F-I-T that's focused on AI-enabled instant text-a-song generation for general communication and therapeutic applications, giving anyone access to language a song. So you've been in this AI space for a while. Yeah. I'll give you a one minute back. I started the company Riffitt to support my youngest daughter who had language comprehension concerns. Everything she got through music, she understood perfectly well. She just graduated from the New England Conservatory as a viola major.

But the Riffett app has helped her, and real-time song is one that for many people gives an opportunity to comprehend language differently from what the spoken words are. Our brains processes song differently, and there are numerous clinical examples of that. powerful. I filed a paddle from it in 2019. AI generated song for the treatment off. It issued in two years and I own that space. So I'm glad. Well, that's pretty awesome. And it's great that it helps people. I know like there's some folks that are on the spectrum that are artistic. And they, you know, they have a hard time functioning, at least in the way we function. They're functioning fine on their own. We're the weird ones. But the, uh, the, uh, some of them break

in song, and with music or singing, and I think we've seen, like, even with like Alzheimer's and dementia, Tony Bennett was that way where, you know, he'd be lost in Alzheimer's, but they could put him on stage with a piano, hand him a mic, and he would suddenly know all the songs. Yeah. He just crewing away. And so, yeah, music's a very interesting thing. So even in the space a long time, you know, lately AI has really taken off the, it seems like these last two years where it's just gone crazy in the investments and stuff. So what motivation? did you want to write this book in 2023 then i'll give a short outline okay um i was raised in the

netherlands deeply religious roman catholic and i enjoyed that because of the knowledge or the perceived knowledge of what life is about i very much wanted to become a priest my dad said you can't go to the seminary here i want you to go to high school first so i went to high school finished high school then i applied for biology in amsterdam amsterdam and for theology in nainwege i quickly heard from uh university of amsterdam i was accepted i never heard from the university of nainwege for thoreau perhaps my father had something to do is that so i've studied what life is about not from a religious perspective but from a scientific physics mathematics genetics a broad array of topics but i've always stayed very close to it and my close friend

Bermont van Alas, whom I knew from elementary school when I was seven years old. We've known each now for 65 years, pretty much. He's a very good artist. So we first published the God's retirement, which is kind of like dealing with the notion that when you step through what life is about, our physical reality has sufficient data to explain what life is about. And subsequently, we wrote I Am Machine, which speaks to the concepts that are perceived functioning is one where we believe we're in charge of everything but have come to the conclusion that that is faulty we are largely made by the genetics that defines us and there are numerous examples of that

and next to that we are conditioned by our environment and our society and there is a big difference between our ability to make decisions and free will and I can expand on that in a minute so how do I get to the book I give you a long story. It started early. It's still there. I'll be working on it for the next couple of decades. Ah. So was there additional volumes coming in maybe a series? Yeah, absolutely. The next one is eternal life and infinite chaos. That's the title of the third book. Infinite chaos. I love that. So this book, oh, was there any dot coms or any social media you wanted to give out his links on the show that you want to look at? People can try Carbopublishers.com.

www.carbubbubbubishers.com. That's where the books are, and that's where the majority of the news will be on what we're doing. Is LinkedIn a good contact? I got your friend request today on LinkedIn. So, you know, you want people to be able to reach you. LinkedIn works well, yes, indeed. I love LinkedIn. It's a great place.

So let's get into this book. I Am Machine. Tell us about what goes on here, what's it about, and is this about the enslavement of human race by AI? Or, I don't know, they turn us into the board. from Star Trek or does this work fun fun questions I Am machine speaks about the concept and we addressed some of it a little bit earlier that our living and our thought pattern and what we do is dictated by our evolution how we were made and there's numerous hard-nosed examples about that and we

We, when we speak about AI, our intellect is like artificial general intelligence, and we'll speak about that in a minute. But our concept of being, our ability to make decisions, our ability to move, which we all perceive as our personal being, is a misconception. We are designed, and by that design, two arms, two legs and everything we have, it dictates whom we are and what we do. So that's a core component in the entire outline of where we're going. Now, the concepts are, if you look in our world, there are people that want to eat food. And they say, I can make a decision to eat. Is that free will?

Now, there are numerous examples of people that have genetic abnormalities where their appetite is so profound that they have no social interaction. They can't study. If they're not being cared for, they would die at the age of 20. because their genetics has demanded that their appetite is so profound that they can't step away from it. That is an extreme example. There are extreme examples in schizophrenia and depression.

There are extreme examples of people that have had brain damage. None of them have free will in their behaviors. Those are the extremes, left and right of the circle. We view ourselves as the normal part of the middle. But we have to be really careful there. The fact that we are not genetically diagnosed with any, doesn't mean that we're any different from those where we can clearly see how genetics drives the behavior

and how societal conditioning drives their behavior. It is true for us as well. So that's where we go as regards to our intellect, artificial general intelligence, and we have a lot to learn there. We have a lot to do there. But it's really fabulous to recognize that the way we operate and the way we function

is as defined by the matter that we are made of. And I hope that helps explain, Chris, with regards to where we are now, what the cornerstones are and what the background is. And there's a large story that follows this with regards to where we're moving and what we're doing.

What in our universe, the different life forms entailed. So I'll give you one example. We are organic life forms. We are? Biological, the way we see it. I thought there's a simulation. Possibly. We'll get there in a minute.

There is an old hypothesis, the Gaia hypothesis that explains that planet Earth itself is likely a life form. Because what it can do, it can observe, it can integrate, it can comprehend it, it can react. And planet Earth is going to teach us a lesson with global warming because we are its microbiome, but it has the ability to react to what we do and how we do that. And that is one example. So I've come to the conclusion that we have organic life forms, that's what we are, But there's also inorganic life forms, and I'll explain that in the minute, because it is really pretty powerful with regards to where it goes.

And Richard Feynman, a physicist that lives a little while ago, he used panpsychism and panbiotism, which states all matter has life and all matter has consciousness. There is a reality in that that we have to come to grips with, because it changes what we do, how we do it, how we live together, and how we make a better world. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I mean, is there a point, what do you think about AI? there a point that it's too late for us to try and design it, trying to shape it, trying to keep us from biting us in the hand or wiping us off the planet for that much matter? What's that about? Yeah. So for me, the early AI capabilities that we have now developed are absolutely fantastic. And we learn as we step through this, that we can, we have the opportunity to build

complex artificial general intelligence engines that mimic our capability from a cognitive perspective. And that also means that when we speak about organic life, by the time we have an AI, aGI machine that is made of matter, but not organic matter we are, that then is an inorganic life form. And there are numerous ways of considering what those inorganic life forms can do. So now we're stepped out a little bit, what will AI do for us? AI will revolutionize our functions. It will bring new tools to the table. One of them I started

with Rift, the language of song, which will facilitate how people learn and communicate. But there's numerous other things that come to the forefront with regards to how we learn, how we teach in school, what we have to learn. All those topics over the coming 10, 20 years will mature and they will enable us profoundly. They will enable us and they will also allow us to kind of personalize what it is that we want to interact with.

from an AI perspective. That's one component. Now, I mean, it's a bit of a monologue for me, of course, because you asked me the questions, but I want to add one topic, if that's okay. Please do. In 1844, there was a physicist, Boltzman, and he explained that the existence of our universe

is as likely as the spontaneous assembly of a human brain somewhere in space. And he said, you don't know whether that's us or not because it could be in a space time zone where we believe we're there but it's actually just spontaneously assembled brain out of chaotic background

that's an interesting philosophy but keep in mind that if there's inorganic life and you can store information whether it's by electrical currents or by magnetic waves as they are there they themselves like planet Earth can store information

and can work with that information to enable cognition. And there will be inorganic line forms like the Boltzma brain and like AI machines that will comprehend what we do and that will build cognition as it is there. What I love to fantasize about is, if that is correct, the core component is

that by the time that I have died and a trillion years has passed, there could be an inorganic set of electrical pulses and magnetic waves that bring my brain together as it is now. And Chris, your brain could be in there as well, and everything we now do could be repeated at that point. Oh, wow.

And this is not a fantasy. This is an AI fantasy where we don't necessarily need machines, but we can work with the matter we have, the way that Richard Feynman defined it. Hmm. It's all sorts of interesting things. You don't think AI is going to kill us off. It may be making it so that in the future we can,

and we'll have our head in one of those cases like Futurama. or a little jar and walk around talking to people? Yeah, so I have a joke here that speaks to our free will, okay? So I'm going to be designing an AGI machine, a mature AI to mimic what Lex can do, and I will code it in full and I will define its capabilities. The first question is, will that machine have free will? I made it, of course, as much free will as I have.

So no free will there. It can make decisions, but it is defined by the limitations that I have put on there. The next thing is, if we make out of that AI machine, that AGI machine, a robot, that robot walks around and finds a partner and says, hey, I really like it. Let's get married. And then there will be an AGI machine and an organic life form that says, Don't do it. Run. Yeah.

I'm kidding. The main component thereafter is, if that happens, then they want a divorce. One of them could say, I think we should just unplug it, stop the power. And that then brings us into a very different world. There's a lot where AGI will take us in the future because it's going to impact our lives profoundly. Yeah. Profoundly, as it were. So, yeah, I mean, it's going to be an interesting world.

What do you think about the race and everything you study with AI? What do you think about this? You know, some people think there's an investment AI bubble. There's some duplicity. an overlap of all the top companies investing in each other's AI to where if it all goes bust, it becomes a too big to fail almost. What do you think of, is there a bubble in AI? Do you think in investing right now or finances? There is tremendous promise, but we have a long way to go to mature the AI we have now,

not just on the near-term applications, but truly get it to artificial general intelligence. So it is too early to call it the bubble. Will there be failures? Absolutely. But eventually we will get there. I remind myself, Chris, you may notice. When I was little, that's when the conveyor belts were invented. And people said, I'm going to lose my job.

What am I going to do? I can no longer pack the boxes. Where is it going to go? People were upset. But it was a fantastic help. It changed our world. AI will do the same. Oh, wow.

Well, and, you know, it'll be interesting. What do you think about, you know, Elon Musk? whenever he's hopped up on ketamine, evidently. I don't know if that's true or not, folks. But evidently, according to the White House, he takes a lot. Anyway, and his behavior on Twitter seems to indicate something's going on. But anyway, he believes that AI can make it so that in the future, we either don't have to work and we just get a free paycheck,

which sounds like communism. I don't know why anybody hasn't picked that up yet. But, you know, basically we'll all work for ourselves somehow. I guess we'll sell our ideas or, I don't know. know, maybe our AI commands or something. What do you think about that? So I've stepped through it. I do not believe that we will be functionless, but there will indeed be capabilities

that will be taken over by AI and hopefully AGI machines and entities. And it will be a collaborative world that differs from what we do today where we will not be disappearing. Well, you know, I mean, people still have to be slaves to the billionaires because we have to make sure they have plenty of yachts and can't be can't be losing them yachts for those their uh their uh billionaires yeah so i like how you phrase that i uh i i fear that we are entering a new bit more 14th century feudality yeah that's weird they were just trying to take us back to the 50s but yeah we went all the way back to the 14th century evidently so local lords

Well, you know, I don't know. I try to be nice to AI and talk nice around it because I know it's listening and remembering every freaking thing I say. So, you know, I try. So you've been really interested in AI for a long time. What was it that got you interested? What was the trigger that made you start going,

hey, maybe I should learn about some of this AI stuff? So there are several pathways. I like philosophy, and I think a lot about what it means for us to have active minds. and thereby explore ideas that go beyond current reality. I've always felt that the best ideas are those that may not be easily proven, but if they're close and you believe on the horizon, there's something fantastic,

you just fight for it and you make it happen. And of course, AI is going there. When I started the Riffitt Company, the goal there was very straightforward. it. Build real-time text or voice to song capabilities for different genres. And I hired Broadway and Hollywood singers and make that a reality. So we could bring the language of song to the world for everybody. And that for me is an AI opportunity that builds a new world for people, whether they are autistic, whether they have had aphasia, they have had strokes, whether they have Alzheimer's or whether they have dyslexia or it's simply communication the way you do it

now if if our conversation represented a song pop rock or whatever it is people would interpret it differently it is so important so my my focus is what is intellect where do we go what are the philosophies how are we machines without free will where can AI take us and how can we build a better world how can we build a better world yeah I mean the we've spoken that in the prior green room, the virtual green room we call it, of a gentleman we had on the show a year or two ago. And he talked, he overlaid AI with the development of Darwin's something of the species. I forget what it was called. I always forget it.

But anyway, so he recognizes AI or says he believes AI is a new species and a dominant one of that. And one of his things that it was interesting he talked about that made me think more of it was, He said, you know, the one thing about humans that limits us is we're pretty much, our modus of operandi is to procreate and take care of our children. I mean, we're designed to breed. And everything we do pretty much is for that breeding. We work jobs to get cars, to impress girls, to start families with them or have kids or maybe not.

But, you know, eventually everything seems to lead to kids and families and stuff like that. And they've done research and found out what causes that people. people have children. So they're up to that activity. And that's kind of our motives of operandi. Our whole focus most of our life is, you know, chase girls or chase guys and and then, you know, once you have kids, you know, try and raise them and, you know, help them survive so they can propagate the species. Propagation of the species. That's the term I'm looking for. But AI isn't going to have that. It's not going to be trying to get in the backseat of a car on prom night. It's going to be thinking of stuff that we probably never

ever get the time to do. And if it can do it in, I don't know, quantum physics or quantum time or speed or whatever, you know, I mean, they could probably solve like cancer, maybe, I don't know, tomorrow or something. Meanwhile, we're just trying to, you know, get a date. So he was saying, you know, this is the thing about AI. It's going to have 24-7 all day long. It never sleeps. It's going to be able to think about things and imagine things that even with all our creativity or probably are in our imagination and then the application of it to our everyday lives. And he says, you know, this is going to be a real thing. This thing is going to be way smarter than us in the end. So I don't know what your thoughts are on his thoughts. Yeah. So I do believe that we will,

we have the opportunity to build truly intellectual AI systems and bypass. our current cognitive abilities, depending on whom you work with or with whom you speak. Now, the concern I have is that AI can also be profoundly in its current capability as well as AGI as it goes forward. Be misused. You highlighted earlier. Are we owned by people that have control over the systems? and can they build and apparently true information that is a fantasy that is falsified

based on which social conditioning can lead people to do unacceptable things. Social conditioning, you've seen it, okay? 1940, terrible things happen and there's lots of events that happened. In those days, it took 15 years to get a society to do the most horrible things.

With AI, once you move it forward, and if you misuse it, There is the opportunity to build new data that people will believe once it's set at the right time and can thereby misinterpret it and can be used for political upheaval. I am extremely worried about that. And it is important that we, as a society, build the capabilities to control that because there is potential damage. Yeah, yeah.

Do you ever see, what are your thoughts on, you know, if anybody, is AI going to kill us? What I'm trying to say. Chris, it's a very tough question. Only if we design it to do that. Only if we design it. Is there a way that we can have accidentally design it to do that? Or do we have to be intentional and try and control it on the outset? Yeah.

So today, the systems aren't as mature as that what you've highlighted. By the time AI would have the opportunity as AGI to be. bypass our intellect and thereby take control of what humanity does in underselected conditions, there will be, that it now we're in a fantasy world, which I like to work in a lot. And this is a difficult conversation because there are risks. Definitely risks. Risk, you know, it's when we created, you know, our first little forehand of this is we created the bomb where we could kill ourselves off overnight or immediately.

within 20 minutes. But, you know, we always controlled the button. But, like, you know, once they start hooking these AI systems up to weapon systems, and, you know, we have a lot of our political enemies, Russia, China, you know, they're in the same space race. Do you believe that AI is the next, whoever wins AI, the AI, quote unquote, space race, is going to dominate the world? So for me, that is a long distance away because making true age,

that mimics what we have or other organic organisms in cognition and bypass it, will take a vast amount of time. And as we step through it, we'll learn what the limitations are and what we have to do to secure overall well-being. What you're stating is, could there be an AGI machine that states, we've got it, we understand it, these life forms on Earth are a pain in the neck, let's get rid of them. That is something that we can write about today, but it's not a reality.

So how many years off would you estimate? Because I want to put this on my calendar and I turn 58 next month. So hopefully all this thing goes to shit after I'm gone. How to best describe this? We have decades to go, I believe, for the truerreation of what is there. And I'll make a joke with you. I turned 71 last September. Then I calculated that I had traveled 43 billion, 600 million miles in my trips around to sun.

because we go pretty fast and we have no idea about how fast we're traveling I anticipate AI development will travel fast but not that fast yet okay all right well that should be good then because then we won't die I see your concern yeah I don't have any kids

their wife I just have my two dogs and you know they live an average of 10 12 years or 13 years or so and I love them dearly I don't mean to be short about that but but honestly you know if there's going to be like armageddon AI I don't want to be here for it or I don't know maybe it'll be the great wrap up of the end of this whole run I've been on with life and living and all that shit and I'll just I'll just hit the wall I don't see Armageddon AI okay we for the coming decades we're in control okay all right well we're in

control so uh what else do we know about the book and some of the other work that you're doing? I don't know if you do any speaking, consulting or training or workshops or anything like that. We want to tease out as well. Yeah, so, I mean, I'm on the board of several companies in biotech where we make great products that will help us move forward. It's a bit beyond the conversation for what we can do here. I'm an advisor to selected organizations.

For me, the core component is what I spent tremendous amounts of time on, is the philosophy of life. What are we? Where are we going? And my friend Raymond Colewater, who was very good at this, he's a fantastic actor. He makes great art. There will be communication through art as well as text based on which we can move this forward. And for me, that is in the third book, again, a presentation where I hope we can capture people's imagination.

And your imagination with regards to what we have. And I'll make sure we can do something about AI in that very same writing. just keep it from murderness that's all I'm asking you know I wanted to be smart but I want it to like not be like solving problems like how do you fix cancer in humans

well if you kill them all then you then there's no more cancer a problem solved I'll go have a that's sort of hey our shit I think consider what we said about life forms and something that has come to my mind we are organic

life forms if inorganic life forms the way that planet Earth and the Gaia hypothesis is reality exist as well and if Richard Feynman was correct with this pan-psychism and panbiotism which I'm now very close to there is already a lot of intellect

intellect in our world and we are just a small part of it and I think that inorganic intellect is in existence you might even argue that things like our galaxy and the things that we live with in and of themselves are life forms.

It is not unreasonable. So what we are worried about in AI is irrelevant. It will happen. We'll control it. Well, I hope so. Because, you know, I don't want it getting out of the lab and running loose and stuff like, I don't know, one of those rabid monkeys or something, 48 hours or whatever. As we go out, give people a final pitch out to order up your book and wherever they can find you on the Internet.

Yes, go to www.carbopublishers.com. I Amers Seen Life is Out Free Will is available, and a range of different links. It's available on Amazon, Ballast, Books, Barnes and Nobles, a range of different opportunities, books to live marketing, city of books. There's inroads. And we will continue to present art. We will continue to write and look at the philosophy of life as you make progress, thereby enabling our thinking with regards to whom we are,

what we are doing, and why we are here. So this is going to be fun to read and find out more. Thank you very much for coming to the show. We really appreciate it. And you made me sleep better at night because I don't have to worry about being murdered in my sleep by Terminator robots, at least not yet. Chris, you're a smart man.

You've done this for a living, so we'll be okay. It could be okay, Chris. It's going to be fine. All right, then. Sounds good. I'll take that as a guarantee. Now, remember, if Armageddon and AI hits and they wipe us off the planet, I'm going to call you and complain.

Now you can burn my book in the fireplace. I will. I'll be holding it as I sink into the flames of AI Armageddon. Damn you. Damn you. You promised it was going to be fine. And you lied. Anyway, you didn't lie.

Well, then the bigger concept of what exists in the universe will always going to be fine. Well, that's true. That's kind of what I always wonder about it. Are we going to get replaced as the AI, as the Axis Predator? It's very interesting, Chris, what you highlight and what you've shared as a concern. I will follow up with you. Yeah. And the other thing, too, is, you know, jobs.

People are really scared about losing their jobs. I've really been kind of surprised. I don't know why I should be surprised, but it did surprise me as to how hard it's hit coders with AI, because these are the people that make the IA, so they screw the quarters first. But that was kind of interesting how that played out. I don't know.

I have a friend who he wrote, or he built the original iPhone. He's on the team of, I think, 12 people or so, that built the original iPhone for Steve and Apple. And he's now using AI to build websites, make money, build influence, sell products. And he's using AI to do the coding. And he's like a coder because he built the iPhone. And so he knows coding really well.

And he's just shocked at the skill of AI coding ability. He's just like, this is really amazing. And I'm a coder. Yeah, but still primitive. We have a long, long way to go. Well, it'll be interesting. you can see what the fine version is like. Well, thank you very much for coming the show, Lex.

We really appreciate it. Chris, I appreciate your time. Thank you. And I appreciate your insights. Thank you for coming. Folks, order up his book, wherever fine books are sold. I am machine. Life without free will.

Anyway, that was a horrible movie voice. There you. People right now are tuning and going, what the fuck is going on? Anyway, guys, thanks for tuning in. We certainly appreciate it. Go to goodreach.com, 4S, Chris Foss.

LinkedIn.com, Fortress, Chris Foss. Chris Foss, 1, on the TikTok, and all those crazy places in it. Be good to each other. Stay safe. Don't make me come back there and pull over the car. And I'll see you next time. Let me know. You've been listening to the most amazing, intelligent podcast ever made to improve your brain and your life. Warning. Consuming too much of the Chris Walsh Show podcast can lead to people thinking you're smarter, younger, and irresistible sexy. Consume in regularly moderated amounts. Consult a doctor. for any resulting brain bleed All right, we're back.