The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – I’d Rather Do It Myself: From Micromanagement to Leadership by Valerie Delforge

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

I'd Rather Do It Myself: From Micromanagement to Leadership by Valerie Delforge thedelforgegroup.co.uk The rise of micromanagers has never been so real! With her 30 years of experience in the Spa, beauty and hair industry, Valerie Delforge takes you on a journey to becoming the leader you deserve to be and release you from your fears of letting go by structuring you and your business. Whether you are a micromanager or want to learn more about leadership, this book will give you the tools necessary to thrive in your business. "This book has given me the tools to work on my structure and leadership, fun, and full of stories, I could recognise myself at every page!" - Lina, Hair salon owner and self-confessed micromanager Valerie Delforge is an International Business Strategy Consultant, supporting business owners, to achieve their well-deserved work-life balance in a profitable business.

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and the big 130,000 LinkedIn group and all the other places on the internet you can find the Chris Voss Show. We have an amazing young lady on the show today. She's going to be imparting to us how to be smerter. As always, we have the most smerter people on the show. Smerter? It's not like murder. It's's like smart murdering i don't know what that means i'm just making up stuff as i go along as we do valerie del forge joins us on the show today her newest book comes out i believe in a

week or two december 26 2023 it's called i'd rather Myself, From Micromanagement to Leadership. And we're going to be talking to her about some of her insights, her business, and what she does. Valerie Delforge is an international business strategist, consultant, author, and public speaker, assisting international leaders in the spa and beauty industry, I clearly need both of those things, to create a sustainable and profitable business. She's been in the beauty industry for 30 years and not only managed to successfully achieve all set targets

and inspire teams to deliver high standards expected in high-end spas, but also developed an easy-to-fall strategy to create a year-over-year strategic growth. She's had commercial success experience from Clarence, Urban Retreat, and her last role as the head of spa operations of Steiner UK, as well as her own beauty salon. She recognizes the various challenges owners and managers are facing and can focus their work on key strategies that are easy to implement in their business.

Welcome to the show, Valerie. How are you? I'm very well. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me, obviously, on the Best Post podcast. There you go. We're just here for the very first time, really. So give us your links, your dot coms. Where can people find you on the interweb, which is in the sky? You can find me on LinkedIn under Valerie Del Poche, or you can find our website on the delpochegroup.co.uk. And you've got all of our contact details on there if you wanted to have a little chat with us

and discuss how we can help you. There you go. So your new book, I'd rather do it myself. Tell us a 30,000 overview. What's inside this? So I kind of been consulting for about 10 years now, and we know three years ago was the big pandemic, which obviously being a consultant, I was a lot on the road. I was traveling a lot to my clients, suddenly put everything online, suddenly became kind of a much more focused on an international level. I've always worked with Ireland, UK and France, but the online world, obviously, just like yourself, just kind of opens you up to so much more. I'm focusing mainly on coaching one-to-one for managers, owners of beauty salons and spas and hair salons.

But we've been also coaching a lot of different industries. We just haven't really talked about it. But we coach people in the service industry, let's say. They could be a coffee shop owner or a restaurant or a clothes shop at some point. So we kind of look into the structure, the operation of the business. And what I have noticed since the pandemic is the rise of the micromanagers. You know, we just want to hold on to everything because we're so scared. We can't recruit, which is an international problem. The recruitment is just very difficult in a very, very skilled industry.

But also, even if you look at other service industry, it can be very difficult. And, you know, we do a lot of mystery shops. We do a lot of things where we see the customer service being compromised and what happens is the owner kind of want to take everything on board and just not share anything they can't recruit so they may as well do it themselves you know i'm not sure but what that does it just ultimately stops the growth of the business and the owners themselves yeah it's hard

to scale if you're trying to do all the work. Yes, yes. Well, this is a problem of the smaller entity. You know, we're working a lot. We're working with big groups, big spas, corporates, et cetera, but we also have a huge amount of smaller salon owners and smaller owners. So I guess what's difficult when you have got a big company, when you've got a corporate,

you've got kind of the structure there to help you. And you've got an IT man that comes and helps you with your computer. And you've got an electrician. And you've got someone that can come and do maintenance. When you are working in a smaller company and your own company, you tend to be all these things. You're the electrician. You're the plumber.

You're the one who, you're the plumber, you're the one, you know, the go-to person to do everything because, you know, no one else is there to support you. Yeah, I was the janitor too. Yeah, I mean, totally. And I think that, you know, every single role is very important, but we tend to kind of grab onto everything we can because we can't recruit because it's a difficult market at the moment so I felt that I've always had always had

a book in me I've always wanted to write and do a lot of blogs and articles and everything else but I felt this was a lot of people kind of thought I'm going to write about how to to run a successful business but I think me, the structure and the systems that I've put in this book are the success of your business. It's really about you, how you're going to manage. It comes from the top. You know, we've all heard that, isn't it? It comes from the top.

And it has to be a system and structure to kind of follow. So I wanted to share that. I guess my last role was spa operations, head of spa operation. So I was very operational, you know, all about the details. And especially when it comes to spas and beauty salons, it's about the detail. The client doesn't want to know that you're running around because the cleaner hasn't cleaned and someone's going to be sick and you have to cover reception and the client's complaining so the client that comes in they just want to come in and relax so it's very very important that we really not get stuck in the day-to-day operation

and that's a lot of owners that we meet they're stuck in the day-to-day. They're stuck being the electrician changing that light bulb, etc. So we kind of love what we do. We do one-to-one coaching because every business, as far as I'm concerned, is different. It's got different inspiration and different structure.

So we help to put the system in place according to how you work and how you function. There you go. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your upbringing. What got you into the entrepreneur bug place according to how you work and how you function. There you go. Yeah. So, tell us a little bit about your upbringing. What got you into the entrepreneur bargain in this spa business?

Yeah, I mean, I'm French originally. I'm sure you've heard, but I've got a bit of an accent where everyone's thinking, where is she from exactly? So, I'm French. I was born in France. I lived there until I was 21. And at 21, I had enough money to kind of come to the UK. I had a friend who told me, just go over there, learn English. And, you know, 31 years later, I'm still here.

I have my children here and, you know, my life is here. So I absolutely love the way kind of it functions here, the way it was a lot more, perhaps less academic than France. France is very academic. You know, you have to have all these studies in order to do something. So I kind of felt I could grow a lot more. So I started as a waitress. You know, I had enough money for months and I actually ended up having a job. And then after about a year went traveling came

back and so now I still want to stay in the UK and started working for an agency that placed placed me in different parts of big department stores with big brands like Blancorne or Dior whatever and then after a while I started quite liking this and I started applying for different companies and started my role at Wiz Clinic, which is a big skincare company. Learned everything about, I guess, Wiz Clinic, it was all about sales. Wiz Clarence, it was all about time management, organization, managing big teams. I was up to 230 staff members at one point that I had to, you know, was a manager for. After that, I had my own

little business my own little salon then I became director not director it was a direct manager for Occitan which is a French brand and from that I worked with Open Retreat I mean you know just kind of every role brought something to the table basically and 10 years ago after being head of spa operation, I was getting a lot of people asking me for help. So I was starting to kind of coach on the side, really, really enjoying this and thought, you know what, I'm going to set up my own kind of coaching group.

And I did that 10 years ago and absolutely never turned back. I think it's just, I think you learn, isn't it? Any role that you have, you learn from it and you take turned back. I think it's just, I think you learn, isn't it? Any role that you have, you learn from it, and you take that experience. No one can take that away from you. And I think having all the structure and the systems in place, I thought, right, I've got something to give back, and that was the time to do so. There you go. So what made you finally decide that it was time to write a book on this? I guess I was starting to write a book in 2019. And then it was about leadership. But it was kind

of no frame to it as such. I was just starting to put things together. And then we know what happened in 2020. And we had a lot of lockdown here in the UK my business suddenly right I need to go online that was already online but not to that extent and you know kind of decided okay I'm gonna go back into it and only went back into writing in 2022 last year and managed to finally finish the book which to me was kind of a passion project if i'm honest it wasn't necessarily i must write a book it was more of a passion project what do i want and i've learned a lot from this process as well you just never stop learning i don't think oh yeah from all those things that you do that's that's one of the key things so in your coaching practice and stuff can you tell us

what's one of the worst examples of micromanaging that you've maybe ever seen or a story maybe you've heard yeah i mean perhaps one of the worst has been a manager who sorry owner who started coaching with me and you know it was clear that she needed support she had a team of seven therapists and two receptionists it's fairly big team but had no management around her to her spending the money on a manager was just kind of not necessarily because necessary because you know it's fine i can handle it i can handle it but on the side of it when you hear I do my VAT on a Sunday, you know, when the salon is closed, or I take my phone when I go away on holiday, or I don't really have time, I'll do it when the children are in bed. You know, that kind of thing. After a while, you kind of need to think to yourself, if you've created your business and you really want this business to work for you, then you've got to make it work for you differently.

And that's going back to the structure. So if we hire a manager, the manager can offload a lot. You can offload a lot of things to the manager. And from that, you then can become the owner you should become, which is working on the marketing strategy, working on the networking, working on really developing each staff member, and actually have a day off when you don't have a phone ringing or when you don't have to go and change that light bulb.

So it's about understanding why you need someone to support you. So anyway, we took on this lovely person, this lovely manager, and what was happening after a while, it appeared that this owner wanted the manager to email her every morning and every evening to tell her what she was doing. I know. And it's just like all the manager was doing was just absolutely focused on these emails and not really focusing on the day-to-day because she was just too scared about what the owner was going to do. That's it. You're just busy documenting everything. Sorry? You're just busy documenting everything. Sorry?

You're just busy documenting everything. Yeah, basically it's document for document's sakes. And actually, if you're not trusting the person you're employing, what is the point? You have to eventually trust the system that you put in place. Otherwise, but there are ways we can check and double check things. And it appears as well that she was doing a lot of things that were just a little bit you know a lot of whatsapp messages i mean i love to hate whatsapp as well you know i love whatsapp but i also don't like it

especially when you're managing i think it becomes a tool that is constantly used so the owner was like you know having a shower in the morning and just decided yeah i've got about 5 000 things i want to get the manager to do and whatsapping her like crazy at six o'clock in the morning and the manager wakes up to normally having to do an email and on top of that all these things that were in the owner's head and it's all valid and it's lovely but in another hand when i discussed that with the owner she turned around and said oh yeah but you know it's just in my head i just need to offload it but all it did was stressing the manager out it really just made her feel inadequate and

actually that she had too much to do that wasn't focused on her day-to-day. So, yeah, needless to say, she did leave after about a couple of months. It didn't work out. You know, that really is the thing. You know, looking at the workload that you're throwing at your people, I mean, they don't really need to experience all of you. You know, you can wait on some things. I mean, especially when you're waking up in the morning,

you're waking up in the morning going, hey, I'm going to go work today and I got a lot to do. And then you're waking up in the morning seeing some sort of manic the morning going hey i'm gonna go work today and i got a lot to do and then you're waking up in the morning seeing some sort of manic crap from your boss in your life i know exactly what the hell this this and then i just woke up can you wait till after coffee please especially coffee for sure what do you think what what what are what do you think are the reasons people do the micromanaging? Is it insecurity? What is the underlying facets of that? I mean, the main aspect of micromanagement, I believe, is control.

You know, you want to control every single aspect of your business. It's your baby. You've built it. You've done it yourself. So you know the system. You know what works. And if you make a mistake it's down to you it's not having to train someone and a lot of the barriers I get when it's about structure is you know it's it's that oh well by the time I train her I may as well do it or she's

gonna make mistakes so I may as well do it or it's no point because so it ends up being a bit of a vicious circle because you're not trusting that so there's a definite control and a trust that's really difficult it's very ingrained into the owner that you know I can't I don't know if I can trust this person what if she leaves what if she goes what, you know, or he goes, what happens then? Or, you know, so we're not trusting the systems in place, and we're certainly not trusting the people in a way, you know. So we love people. We need to work with them, but we don't really trust fully. So it's a bit of control and trust for sure.

Control and trust, your baby, you know. And sometimes you're just like, oh oh it's easier and faster if you just do this to them but you know it's one of those things where if you don't teach a person how to fish you know they can't fish and if you keep robbing them of the ability to learn the thing and the other thing is too i think correct me if i'm wrong but you you have to allow that your your staff is going to make mistakes yes irregardless how good your training is and sometimes it might be you and your training communication is not good but uh you know that's something you have to address too but for the most part it's it's they're going to make mistakes i

mean that's just it you're going to make mistakes if you do it to yourself for too long and if you stretch yourself too thin you're going to make mistakes because you're not on top of it. I've been guilty of that where I was micromanaging something for someone or doing their tasks for them. And I mucked it up because I was jumping in and just trying to, I'll just do it really quick or whatever. And someone will show you how to fix that later. And then I go and screw it up. And I'm like, geez, I should just let them do it. They might have known more about what's going on than I did at this point. Exactly. And I always believe, like I've never

been a beauty therapist. I've always been a manager. You know, I don't want to be a beauty therapist. Do your job well. You know, hire people that do their job well because if you do your job well, that's better for me. I can focus on other things. So things so you know you've kind of hit it a little bit as well on communication i think the heart of everything and this is i talk a lot about soft skills in the book where soft skills of leadership and to me the key key soft skills that the owner needs to adopt is number one time management if time management in an operational business so I'm really talking about service client service business you know if the time if your time management is not on point then you will feel very very overwhelmed from the tiniest little things

or you will feel that you're not growing necessarily so time management for me has always been a big big big impact in my life you life. You know, I've had some harsh lessons, so I've had to really focus on my time management. And I believe that's the number one thing that we do with the owners when we work on a one-to-one basis because it allows us to really get that kind of everything in your head on paper and we can deal with that now. We can dilute it and we can deal and we can delegate,

which is also another sort of skill of leadership. But the main one to me, and obviously being French in the UK, I've had to learn the hard way. You know, in many ways, it's a bit too direct, a bit too straightforward. So you don't have to put what we call gloves on, you know, to kind of be a bit softer and say please and thank you and be much, you know, much more relaxed

into the way I was communicating. But communication is the number one priority as a soft skill. If you don't, if your communication is too much off, then it's overwhelming. If your communication is too little, then it's actually worrying for the team because they don't know where they stand. If your communication is too little, then it's actually worrying for the team because they don't know where they stand.

If your communication is sporadic or we know everything in our head, but we're not communicating. And a lot of time when we work with the owners, they know where they're going. They know the direction. I can bet you that the team doesn't because they've not been communicated it properly. I mean, my manager used to say to me, but Valerie, I've said it so many times. You know, why should I? You know, I've said it. I've said it.

Well, if you've said it and it's not heard, that means you've not said it properly. So you go back and listen to and go back and see what you've done that you could do differently. And a lot of time is one-to-one meetings are important. The team meetings are important people on holiday to go back to them and focus on them when they come back to get them to know the business but you know chris we have got this issue as well nowadays isn't it where we always feel the generation that's coming is never as good or is never listening or they don't care yeah absolutely i don't know i'm don't first. Yeah, absolutely.

I don't know. I'm just teasing the Gen Zs. So how do you see that changing? Do you see leadership changing under this new generation? I think it does change. Sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Well, I think, yes, it is going to change in the way we communicate,

for example, because you can't communicate with a gen z i guess the way you're going to communicate with someone who's a little bit more established but i do also think that if you are sure of your values and who you are as a business owner and you are sure about your systems and your processes and you know what you're delivering then you are going to attract the right people to you and i think sometimes what I'm seeing a lot of is that we're complaining a lot in particular with recruitment oh there's no recruitment but we don't say when there's a really good gem out there you know when I talk to some clients and I've recruited this young girl she's amazing they shout about that you know we only hear the negatives. What about the James

out there that are doing well, that actually have got growth to go? We should be shouting about that. You know, I feel a lot more. To me, that's leadership. And I think that, yes, it's always going to be a generation issue. But when I go back to my dad and his dad, you know, they had generation clashes in a big way in the 60s. That's true. That's true. In a big ways. You know, when I look back at my mom in the 19, you know, 1968, 69, they were burning bras in Paris, weren't they?

We're burning bras right now over here. Yeah, to be fair. Makes for some nice marshmallows and I don't know what that means. There you go. What was the other question I had for you here? How do you think leadership has changed over the last few years and how can business owners, what can they do to become better leaders? I think it's really being very centered into your own path.

I think a lot of things, Chris, is that there's so much information out there. There's too much information out there. There's too much information out there. And a lot of time we get owners coming to us and say, look, I know what I'm doing. And a lot of owners know what they're doing. It's not like they don't know. They know what they're doing, but they don't know where to start. They don't know what they need to do in order to grow. They don't know how to kind of manage this new generation or even how to talk to their staff members.

So it's going back to basics. And when they start with us, when the member staff start with us, we tend to say to them, look, don't listen to anything for at least six months. Just stay in the path of the structure we want to build with you, of the operation that we want to do with you. And then once you really set, you're grounded, you know where you are, and you're aligned with your vision, because a lot of time we might not have a vision anymore. We might be a little bit lost in where we are, a bit of burnt out. I've seen a lot of burnt out lately, where we just, on that wheel and that motion, where we don't really know where we're going there's a lack of direction but I think if you're aligning yourself with your business and

you're aligning yourself with your structure and your systems in place there's no reason for you not to be successful in the business that you want and you drive the business rather than the business driving you. So to me, leadership has changed because there's a lot of things that we do. We compare ourselves so much more because of the lovely social media out there. I was talking to a client not long ago. This person's got it all much more sorted than I have. How do you know that? This is the Instagram life. And I'm in the generation where, you know, when I tell my daughters,

we didn't have Google and Facebook and all of that jazz. They're like, oh, my God, you're like a dinosaur. I said, yeah, I'm a dinosaur. We didn't have any of this. Wow. Wow, that's cool. So, you know, we kind of had to learn. I remember my marketing director from one of the brands I was working with

turned around and said, oh, there's this new thing called Facebook. It's coming out. I need content. I said, oh, what is that about? You know, we used to network. We used to go to colleges to try and find stuff. We used to network a lot more on the face-to-face. So with everything now accessible and so much information,

if as an owner you're not grounded or you're not sure about your system or you're feeling overwhelmed or you're on that burnout mode, then there's something that you need to do. And coaching for me is the best aspect of the support that you can get. Because if you find the right coach, you need to make sure that you're aligning with that coach as well. There's a lot of coaches out there. So you've got to make sure you're choosing the person that you're happy with, you feel that connection, and they're going to help you to sort an aspect of your business out or sort the time management or sort the way you're thinking and your mindset.

So I think leadership has changed in a sense that there's just so much out there. So it's difficult to know what's best sometimes. There you go. And I mean, if you're burning out, that's usually a point that maybe you need to delegate and quit trying to do everything yourself, right? You need to, you definitely need to delegate probably. Yeah, but I think that's when you're scared to delegate. Like you just said, you know, earlier, you delegated something, so I may as well just do it because, you know, it's quicker, it's faster.

I'm going to get the results I hopefully want. So, you tend to kind of delegate without delegating. You know, you delegate, but maybe if I do that, then I'll be okay. So really you're not growing anyone else. I think the recruitment is not helping. I think we're so scared of the recruitment that, you know, we tend to either not recruit or we don't believe in a new recruit straight away. So there's a lack of training and recruitment around what's going on at the moment.

Yeah. You do hear short horror stories of people, yes, I'm coming on Sunday, I'm starting on Sunday, and they never turn up. Or coming to the interviews with big hoop earrings and jeans and T-shirts and thinking. Wait, that's how I show up in interviews, big hoop earrings and jeans and t-shirts and thinking wait that's how i show up in interviews big hoop earrings i don't know what's interview that is for but you know i mean i i hope it gets me a job but i don't know but you know in in where what in the industry we're in i think that's the thing is that if you're if you're kind of burnt burnt by all the interviews you've had or

people not turning up or whatever then you tend to just go back to your old way and you stick to what you know and i think that's that's been a big issue lately it's definitely since the pandemic is highlighted it even more that and that and you know hiring right and doing the process right of hiring and vetting is i mean that's a whole skill setting of its own you know we we did a thing with our companies where we just you know people show up we interview them you're like hey you want a job you sound great and then you know we bring them on and find out that you know it was kind of those things where you know dr jekyll mr hyde and then all of a sudden they show up on the job and you're like, you know, head spinning around like the exorcist and the pea soup spewing everywhere. And so we found, you know, we had to tighten up the whole ship on how we interviewed and have three or four different interviews and have a really cool process.

And that made, like, all the difference in the world. But, yeah, it's just about any part of your business is a process. And some people don't want to do that work and make that commitment, but you kind of have to. That or hire people to do it. Yeah, yeah, exactly that. Or you upload through, you know know a different outsource you know maybe it could be a pa maybe it's a recruitment agency maybe it's a marketing agency but even

that chris is an element of even let's say i'm seeing a lot of marketing agencies lately that have come out of the woodwork in woodwork is that how we say it yeah yeah it's coming to the woodwork from now on then i have sayings the king am i doing it right Yeah. It's coming out of the woodwork. And then I have sayings, am I doing it right? So, you know, that come out and then just, you know, suddenly I'm the expert in marketing or whatever. And you're thinking, okay, you as an owner, you still need to manage an aspect of the marketing. You still need to manage that agency.

You still need to give them content. You still need to check. So your role becomes different. And that's why you need the time. You can't be going to change the light bulb because you need that time to kind of make sure the growth and the strategy and the systems and the processes are in place. And our success has been and is in very much, you know, the fact that we have owners are not in the business necessarily, or if they are, it's because they want to one or two days a week in terms of treating clients. Otherwise, they are working on the business and they're doing better, better,

better than ever. Some of them have doubled their sales because, you know, they're focusing on the growth of the business, not on the nitty-gritty day-to-day. And you get to a stage after a while where you really want to do certain aspects of your recruitment. For example, with recruitment, you know, it is a process. I never used to do the first interview. We have these things called trade tests, which is a testing the you know the the hairdresser

or the therapist or whatever so we used to to trade test I didn't get involved in any of that as a GM or head of spa I got involved at the last hurdle which was okay we like this person pass the trade test pass the two interviews now is your third and final interview with you. And I would then see if they fit in the team. So my time wasn't set into that system because someone else can do that. You know, my head therapist can do that. My head, my manager can do that. So when we have the system in place, it's so much easier because a lot of time we recruit thinking, oh my God, it's great.

I'm going to get the best person in this role. She's going to be all he or they. It's going to be amazing, and it's going to be incredible, and they're going to come with a magic wand, and they're going to make everything much better. Wow, that sounds great. It does not work like that because no one has a magic wand. You have to have your system, your process,

the way you want to run things. Someone can come in and follow what you want and bring in something extra that maybe you never thought of, but it's implemented in the correct way. And a lot of time what we find is, you know, in a bigger structure, in a way you can delegate, you can do all of that. When you're a small structure, so it's yourself, two other people,

it's a lot harder to do any of that. So then you've got to outsource, and then you have to think, should I spend my money on a receptionist? Should I spend my money on a manager? And that is a budget, budget, budget, budget. We do everything around budgets and figures and numbers. There you go. So give us your pitch out as we go out.

How can people onboard with you, get familiar with your services, reach out to you, see if you're a fit, et cetera, et cetera? So you go onto my website or you can email or send me a little message on LinkedIn. We will come back to you. You'll have a consultation with one of the coaches, which is mainly Amy, who is my lovely business partner, who's also a coach. She's an ex-salon owner. She will assess what is it that you need. Do you need a business audit?

Do you need more of the management leadership program? So we've got audits. We've got program. We've got training for the teams, et cetera. So Amy will do the consultation. And from that, we then see what's really good for you because I've always run my business through what you need rather than this is what we do and it's all square and that's it. It's important that you know we have the programs, but we also have the audits that allows us to understand then once we've done the audit,

what is it that you need? What is it that we need to focus on? Is it more recruitment? Is it more structured? Maybe you have it. So it's very tailor-made is what I want to say. So have that consultation with Amy and simply book it on the website. And then from that, we'll take it from there and have the journey with us.

Ideally, we like to work with someone for six months, but sometimes it's shorter depending on the needs. And then the key for me as a consultant has always been to give you the reins and the systems so you don't have to constantly be needing someone by your side. But, you know, we have members that have been with us for a long time, four or five years, one is six years, because they like that accountability. Every month there's an accountability.

Every month, you know, we really discuss the ins and outs and that growth that we are so needing in the business. There you go. Well, it's been wonderful to have you on, Valerie, and so insightful. Thank you for coming. Thank you so much for having me there you go and thanks to our audience for tuning in order of the book wherever fine books are sold coming out december 26 2023 christmas area there i'd rather do it myself by valerie del forge thanks to our audience for tuning in go to goodreads.com fortress chris foss linkedin.com

fortress chris foss chris foss one of the tickety-tockety the big linkedin newsletter and on it for tuning in. Go to Goodreads.com, Fortress, Chris Voss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress, Chris Voss, Chris Voss 1, the Tickety-Tockety, the big LinkedIn newsletter and the 130,000 LinkedIn group. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe and we'll see you guys next time.