The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Invisible Storm: A Soldier’s Memoir of Politics and PTSD by Jason Kander

Episode Date: July 26, 2022

Invisible Storm: A Soldier's Memoir of Politics and PTSD by Jason Kander NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER “A truly special book. This combination of honesty, thoughtfulness, urgency, and vulnerability is not common in leaders, and Jason demonstrates boundless occupancy of all of these traits.” – Wes Moore, New York Times bestselling author of The Other Wes Moore From political wunderkind and former army intelligence officer Jason Kander comes a haunting, powerful memoir about impossible choices—and how sometimes walking away from the chance of a lifetime can be the greatest decision of all. In 2017, President Obama, in his final Oval Office interview, was asked who gave him hope for the future of the country, and Jason Kander was the first name he mentioned. Suddenly, Jason was a national figure. As observers assumed he was preparing a run for the presidency, Jason announced a bid for mayor of Kansas City instead and was headed for a landslide victory. But after eleven years battling PTSD from his service in Afghanistan, Jason was seized by depression and suicidal thoughts. He dropped out of the mayor’s race and out of public life. And finally, he sought help. In this brutally honest second memoir, following his New York Times best-selling debut Outside the Wire, Jason Kander has written the book he himself needed in the most painful moments of his PTSD. In candid, in-the-moment detail, we see him struggle with undiagnosed illness during a presidential bid; witness his family buoy him through challenging treatment; and, giving hope to so many of us, see him heal.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain now here's your host chris voss hi folks this is voss here from the chris voss show.com the chris voss show.com hey we certainly appreciate you guys tuning in who knew we'd always have another great author and guest on the show today? And I think this gentleman is going to amaze you and blow your mind.

He's going to blow your mind. Jason, I'm really putting some onus on you to putting the pressure on you. So we'll be talking to you in one second here. But first, refer the show to your family, friends, relatives. Remember, the Chris Foss Show is the family that loves you but doesn't judge you, like all those other families that judge you really harshly, especially those family outings. We don't do that, which is really nice. Anyway, guys, be sure to go to iTunes. Give the show a good reference, five stars if you would, or give it

six stars if you can find the six-star button. There you go. Go to all my groups on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all those TikTok, all those crazy places the kids are playing. Today we have an amazing author on the show. He's a multi-book author, Jason Kander. And he's on the show to talk to us about his new book, Invisible Storm, a soldier's memoir of politics and PTSD. Just came out July 5th, 2022. It is hot off the presses. You definitely want to get a chance to read it,

find out more about it and everything that he is doing. He's kind of had an amazing career. He's a former army captain who served in Afghanistan, was the first millennial ever elected to a statewide office. He is the president of a national expansion at Veterans Community Project, a nonprofit organization, and host of Majority 54 podcast, a popular political podcast that they do. Jason's first book, Outside the Wire, was a New York Times bestseller. He lives in Kansas City with his family

and all that good stuff. Welcome to the show, Jason. How are you? I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to have you. And give us your dot-coms or places where people can go find out more about you on those interwebs. Oh, sure. Thanks. So jasonkander.com is my website, K-A-N-D-E-R, that's how you spell Kander. And then on Instagram and Twitter, I'm at Jason Kander. So nothing particularly terribly creative. But also the organization where I'm the president of National Expansion is Veterans Community Project,

and we can be found at vcp.org. That's awesome. So what motivated you to want to write this book? Well, this is the book that I needed 14 years ago when I came home from Afghanistan, but it didn't exist, so I finally decided to write it. pretty well running for president while I had a secret undiagnosed untreated psychological disorder, PTSD, that I just refused to acknowledge for a really long time. And then finally in 2018, I made a pretty major news by dropping out of public life and deciding to go to the VA to get help for PTSD. And then I went to therapy for several months and now I'm in a phase of my life that I think of as post-traumatic growth. So I wanted people to know, people who are, whether they're veterans or not, who've experienced trauma, to know what I didn't know for a long time, which is that PTSD is not a terminal diagnosis.

That if you treat it and you commit to the treatment, you can move forward with your life, and you can manage manage it and it won't slow you down, won't limit you and you don't have to live that way. And I thought the best way to do that was to just tell my story. That's awesome. How many returning soldiers suffer from PTSD from the tours of duty? I think the official statistic they have is something like 8%, but I think it's like way low. And I think that actually in the population at large, it's like, I think that the rest of the population, I think it's actually above 8%, you know, in my own non-clinical

estimation, because, you know, we live in a traumatic time and you don't even have to, I mean, just like you can get stuck in trauma in so many different ways. It could be a bad divorce or a car accident or losing a loved one. You know, there's a lot of different ways to have that happen. And that's really what I wanted to get across to people is that there, there is another way that you can, you can go through treatment and you can get better. And the truth is, is that a lot of people do every single year that we are surrounded by people who we just don't know it, but they've gone to trauma therapy and they're living their phase of post-traumatic growth. But that's not what we see portrayed when it comes to PTSD. Like most movies or shows about PTSD, they just show you a combat veteran who is robbing a bank

after they do drugs and beat their spouse. And that's what I refer to as PTSD porn. Like Rambo or something that, you know, from Vietnam, you know, and I think you're right. A lot of people probably suffer from PTSD. You know, you did for 11 years and they just try and can you hear me? I think it sounds pretty good. I think we're, I think we're pretty good. So let's see here. I was mentioning that. I think you're right on PTSD. A lot of, a lot of people, you know, they just kind of suck it up. As men were told, just suck it up, man up, deal with your issue, whatever. And so I think there are a lot more people misdiagnosed. Like you say, you suffered for 11 years before you finally took action.

Hey, folks, this is a quick break in from the show. Hey, be sure to check out my new courses at chrisvossleadershipinstitute.com. That's chrisvossleadershipinstitute.com forward slash courses, or you can just click the courses tab. You can see we've got new courses up for how to start a podcast and video training that can get you up to date on everything we're doing. Of course, my speaking, my coaching and everything else, but be sure to check out the new course that we have up for starting your own podcast after 13 years, kind of sharing some of the secrets of what I know. So be sure to check that out at chrisfossleadership.com forward slash courses. And so tell us a bit more about the story that you tell in there and the journey that you go on to diagnose your PTSD.

Yeah. So I got back from Afghanistan in 2007 and my job over there, I was an army intelligence officer, which is to say my job was to go out and figure out which bad guys were pretending to be good guys in the Afghan government. And then I needed to often go out, just meet a translator, meet with people who were unsavory characters of questionable allegiance. And there was a reasonable chance of walking into a trap and getting kidnapped and killed. But, and so, you know, in that way, my job was dangerous and I was aware of the threat, but I never fired my weapon, the whole deployment. And so when I came home, I was like, well, I'm not a combat veteran. That was the story I told myself, right? Because yeah, I'd been outside the wire most days. I had

been in very dangerous situations, but to me, you know, combat was what I had seen on TV. And if it wasn't Blackhawk down, it didn't count. And, and, you know, that was the story I told myself. And it's combined with the fact that the military teaches you that what you're doing is no big deal because that's the way they make it so that you can go and do these hard jobs, right? And these dangerous jobs. Cause if you believe that what you're doing is a big deal, it's a lot harder to do. But when I came home, nobody had flipped that switch off. So I was very interested in public service. So while I was running for office, I was also telling myself, look, what I did was no big deal. So these symptoms I'm having, night terrors, hypervigilance,

which is to say feeling like I'm in danger and my family's in danger all the time. Wow. Eventually like self-loathing and shame and guilt, those things were mushing me forward in my career as a politician, but I was not acknowledging that they were connected to my service at all because I just didn't feel my service was worthy of that. And so I got elected to the state house from here in Kansas City. I got elected as a Missouri State House of Representatives, served a couple of terms, and I got elected as the Secretary of State of Missouri, became, as you mentioned, the first millennial in the

country ever elected to a statewide office. And then I ran for the U.S. Senate in Missouri, which I'm a Democrat. Missouri is a very red state. And so I ran against an incumbent Republican who had actually been in elected office longer than I'd been alive. And on that day, Hillary Clinton, the Democratic candidate candidate lost Missouri by more than she lost Mississippi. But I came within three points of actually winning on the same day. So, so it was like a loss, but people seem to look at it and go like, Oh, this guy seems to know something about, you know, winning over these voters we need to win over. And, and so then I was sort of, you know, catapulted into the, into that stratosphere of political celebrity on the Democratic side.

And I started a national organization at that time, and I started to think about running for president. And who wasn't at that point? Everybody was when Trump was president. And then I sat down with President Obama, and he did not discourage me from the idea. He was pretty encouraging. And so I started moving forward with that. And the whole time, my symptoms of PTSD are getting worse, but I'm ignoring them.

I'm just trying to outrun them. Frankly, I felt like if I can keep moving, if I can keep, you know, giving these performances, they give me endorphin eyes, then I'll be okay. And I, it was isolating me and separating me from my wife and from my son, who at that time was about four years old. And it just, you know, it was exhausting. And so in about the summer of 2018, I decided that instead of going through with running for president, I had at that point been, I'd spent a lot of time in New Hampshire and Iowa. I'd been to 47 states to give speeches. But I was like, you know what? I can't do it. I don't have it in me right now. And I thought, 47 states to give speeches. But I was like, you know what? I can't do it.

I don't have it in me right now. And I thought I need to go home. And I was like, I'm going to go home and get help at the VA and I'm going to run for mayor and become mayor of my hometown. Well, I was doing half of that. I didn't go to the VA. I didn't keep my promise to myself. But what I did do is I started running for mayor.

And like, if you go from running for president to running for mayor, generally you're the front runner. And I was, it was the first time I was ever in a campaign that I was expected to win and it was going well, but I was getting progressively worse and worse and worse over that period of time until I started to have pretty persistent suicidal thoughts. Wow. And it came to a point where I found myself in the suicide hold, like suicide watch room at the Kansas City Emergency VA. And it was time to pull the plug and get help.

So that's what I did. I announced that I was dropping out of public life to go get help at the VA. And I went for weekly therapy at the VA for several months. And it saved my life. I'm glad you reached that point and didn't, of course, go the other way. You know, there reaches a point with the trauma where your mind turns literally against you and you just feel whipped.

Like it's just, like you're like, I don't know, a servant animal. You're just constantly whipped. And people don't understand it, I think, a lot of times when people feel suicidal because they don't understand what hell it is to live in your own mind in that experience and, and to feel driven, just driven, beaten, your mind is, it's just relentless. And the only way you reach a point where the only way that you can get away from it is to end it because then

it will leave you alone. And you, you feel so, I don't know, you feel just attacked relentlessly 24 seven. It's, it's an, it's a nightmare. So I'm glad you, you,

you were able to survive that and not end up on the other side. What is, what is, do you want to shed some more light on what PTSD feels like so that maybe people in the audience that might be suffering, I can have a better understanding and maybe we'll turn on some light bulbs and people go, you know, I should probably go get help. Yeah.

I think it feels a little different to everybody. I, one of the things I try to do in Invisible Storm, which, you know, I'm grateful that it's done very well. People have really, I mean, it's on, it's, it's an airtime bestseller right now and all the royalties go to my work at Veterans Community Project. But all my royalties, publisher likes to keep their portion. But, you know, so I try really hard to describe it in the book. And what I tried to do in the book is I didn't avail myself in the parts of the book where it's leaning up to me going to therapy, which is most of the book.

I didn't avail myself of the language I gained in therapy. I tried to use the language I would have only had at the time that, you know, the moment in the story. So, you know, I described it as things like the world was a very dangerous place and that the people around me didn't understand how much danger there was. And it was important to be thwarting and preventing that danger all the time. And that was very tiring. And that my night terrors were such that I ended up also developing this sleep paralysis, which is like I would have this bad dream that I was in Afghanistan or somewhere else

and I was about to be kidnapped and I'd wake up, but my body wouldn't wake up, my mind would. And I would be in sort of a hallucinative state where I felt like the thing that was threatening me in the dream was now in the room, but I couldn't move. And my wife actually would sleep really light so she could rock my body just to wake me up. And then, you know, so these are some of the symptoms I had, right? But what it felt like on a day-to-day basis was, you know, that feeling where like something happens in the other room, like your kid is

playing in the other room and you hear a crash. And as you're running in there to see what happens, your mind is playing all the possible terrible scenarios. And it turns out your kid's fine. Whatever fell, missed your kid, it's fine. But then your brain goes to this place of what could have happened. And you imagine it for a moment. And it's like uncontrollable dread. Well,d is like having that feeling a lot of the time and and for me it was

like feeling like when you know when something didn't happen it wasn't that it didn't happen it was that it barely didn't happen and i must have just barely prevented it and i have to be vigilantly on guard all the time to prevent this bad thing from happening. I learned in therapy that that was because my mind learned in Afghanistan, given the job that I did, that if you didn't control the situation at all times, you might be killed. And so I was desperate for a sense of control all the time in my life after Afghanistan for therapy. The other way I sometimes describe it is it's like that feeling of anxiety that you have when you know there's like four tasks that you need to do and you haven't had a chance to write them down.

And so you're trying to go about your day and not have the four tasks all out of your head. Well, it's like that if you have this sinking, vague feeling that if you don't remember all four, you might get killed. That's how it felt to me. Yeah. Did you go through survivor's guilt at all? Yeah.

I had a lot of survivor's guilt and just a real feeling of unworthiness and a feeling that I was pretty irredeemable because I had friends who I felt had done more. And here I was, you know, living this life where I was flying high and, you know, becoming famous and being afforded all these great opportunities and experiences. But I had, you know, friends who had been hurt, friends who were still serving, you know, and I just felt completely unworthy of the life that I was living. Kind of maybe some imposter's guilt. Yeah. It made me dislike myself as a result.

Yeah. So how does it affect families? You talk in the book, your wife, Diana, I believe, you talk about how she worked with you and what's the impact to the families? And that's probably an important way for some people that might have it that they haven't dealt with it, you know, might identify it. Yeah. It has a profound impact on families. One of the things that I did in the book is every chapter, there's a passage written in first person by my wife about her experience. And it's there for a couple of reasons. One is because I'm describing everything without the benefit of the vocabulary I learned in therapy, you're getting

the viewpoint of somebody who had PTSD rather than me now. I mean, I still have it, but rather than me now where I've been through therapy and I understand, you're getting it. I kind of reentered my previous mindset to write it so that it could be more relatable for people who hadn't been through treatment. Well, the shortcoming of that is that, you know, you want people to be able to get a full picture too. And so it was helpful to have a second narrator come in occasionally and say what they were observing and what was actually happening. You know, my wife jokingly refers to some of her sections as rebuttals.

But the other thing is, is that it does affect families profoundly. And my wife ended up developing secondary PTSD, which is a thing we didn't even know existed before I went to therapy. Wow. And that is to say that even without the underlying trauma, even without going with me to Afghanistan, just by being around me all the time, you know, laying next to me when I had these violent nightmares and then hearing about them from me and, you know, while you're barely awake and having it seep in or, you know, having me constantly reinforcing all these security measures that we were taking, you can end up developing a lot of the symptoms and behaviors of somebody with PTSD without the underlying trauma. It was really important to us for her journey to get out there and the other reason a couple reasons why is my wife's also a new york times best-selling author so she's pretty good at this

so let's involve her and then also you know when you're when you have a subject like this and you really want people to read it you need some levity it needs to be funny too and there's a lot of jokes in the book there's a lot of you know a lot of people have said that they cried but they also laughed and several of those do come from my wife's perspective so it makes the book a lot of jokes in the book. There's a lot of, you know, a lot of people have said that they cried, but they also laughed. And several of those do come from my wife's perspective. So it makes the book, like, actually fun to read. That's good. I mean, I think it will help people, you know, understand that this is, you know, sometimes you're not alone in the journey. That's, I think, what a lot of people who turn to suicide and other things, they feel so alone in their mind and in their place and what they're experiencing.

And they, you know, some of the most important things I've ever learned in storytelling and stuff is, is us being able to identify either through our own stories or other people's stories that, Hey, we're not alone. There's other people experiencing this and, and, Oh, they found a path through the darkness and how did they do it? Oh, okay. There, there's a path through the darkness and how did they do it? Oh, okay. There, there's a path there. And, uh, you know, we all help lead each other in and out of, um, some of these different things that we go through and experience in life.

Let's touch on the vital work of your veterans community project. Why don't we talk a little bit about that if you would? Yeah, no, I appreciate you bringing it up. So I actually, veterans community project, it started with my involvement with, it started with when I was running for mayor. I got a tour of the place because it's based here in Kansas City. And I remember feeling like it just knocked me out. It was like a cross between a Ford operating base in Afghanistan and a startup in Silicon Valley, just like they had a baby or something.

And I just loved it. And I went on that night to my wife and I was like, well, I wish I could quit everything I'm doing and just go work there. But it was like not a realistic notion at the time. But what they did that blew me away was there's a couple of things. One, they go after the suicide epidemic because they operate walk-in centers for any to walk in and basically get access to any service without the, you know, the bureaucratic road that you got to go down, uh, VA or any other service providers. Just, Hey, did you serve?

Yes. Okay. You get 100% of our services. And we'll connect you to whatever you need. The second thing, and what they're much better known for, is the residential side, which is to say, going after veterans' homelessness. And that is through a village of tiny houses with wraparound case management services to transition veterans

out of homelessness and then into permanent housing out in the community. And they do that with an enormous success rate that's unheard of in the industry. And so for me, when I decided to go to the VA, I was initially told that it was going to take some time for me to get enrolled in the system. I didn't feel like I had a lot of time. So I, like a lot of KC vets, I went to Veterans Community Project and I went to the of time. So I, like a lot of KC vets, I went to Veterans Community Project and I went to the outreach center, walked in, they handled my paperwork for me. And a week later I had my first therapy appointment at the VA. Wow. Yeah. And so I was a big believer already, but now I was really a believer. And as I was going through therapy, I just started hanging

around Veterans Community Project and they'd been so successful in Kansas City that they were getting invited to replicate their model in other communities around the country. And they'd been so successful in Kansas City that they were getting invited to replicate their model in other communities around the country. And they were trying to figure out how to do that. And I had built a national organization before. So I was giving them some advice. And then I was doing really well in therapy and starting to think about what I might do with the rest of my life. And one of the co-founders was like, hey, man, you're not working and you're here. Why don't you just come on full time? So for the last three years, I've been the president of national expansion at BCP. And during that time, we have expanded our operations from Kansas City to also now in the Denver area, St. Louis area, Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

We just bought land in Oklahoma City. We're going to start building there. And then we have some other communities coming on soon after that. Yeah, that is awesome. That is really important. You know, when we were young, when we started our first company, it was a career company and we used to do blood, urine and body stuff samples, I guess you can call it. I don't know what the correct scientific term is. We used to deliver to different places. So we'd pick up at hospitals and take them to a blood lab, AARP. Maybe I went to AARP

stage. I'm 54. I'm finally losing it. AARP. And they were a blood testing lab or a body testing lab, I guess. And so we would pick up at the VA. It was always despondent when we go in there in the 90s. You just felt like you were in a morgue sometimes and you know most of the times the the doctors would just be like we're just waiting to get our degrees so we can get out of here and go to our own practice and but you know one of my friends who's in the military he had a friend who was having a psychological breakdown and he was going in and they were telling him we we can't find your records you know he's got like his dog tags and all this yeah yeah yeah and they're telling him we can't we can't help you we got to figure out where your records are and you're like the guy's like starting to lose it

and so i'm glad there's stuff like this because we we read about the epidemic of the of you know the homelessness of of vets and and it just seems like, you know, these people, these folks go to war to defend America, they defend our country. And as far as I'm concerned, they should have better health plans than our people in Congress. You know, they should be better taken care of.

Well, yeah, a lot of the problem is that Congress has been so concerned with making sure that nobody who, quote unquote, doesn't deserve the benefits would get them. But what that means is they're trying to figure out which veterans deserve this and which don't. And I mean, most Americans agree that anybody who served in the military deserves these benefits. And that's not how they see it. They try and narrow it down to say, well, you have to serve for a certain period of time. You have to have gone to certain places. You have, you know, you have to serve for a certain period of time. You have to have gone to certain places. You have to have the right discharge status and all this.

And it's like, no, you served in the military. You should have access to the VA. That's my opinion. I mean, when you choose to serve, number one, you're serving. And number two, you know, you're putting your life on your line. You know that if you get called up, you're going to go to a place and you're putting your life on the line. In some cases, just being a member of the military, you know, what was that terrorist

base attack years ago where the guy went in and shot it up? I mean, you know, you can be targeted because you're in the military and bad stuff can happen to you. So I think it's really important. And I'm glad you're doing this sort of work. You talk in the book about modern masculinity and vulnerability. And, you know, I mentioned earlier, a lot of of men we have that sort of man up sort of thing we suck down our emotions and swallow them we just keep on trucking talk to me a little about what you

touched on there in the book if you would yeah you know i what i tried to talk a lot about is that i just feel like i'm a far better father and husband and everything else I do because I went to get help. And I think at the end of the day, what it's about is it's about recognizing that PTSD is an injury. It's not like, you know, if, if you broke your arm, you wouldn't be like, well, I'm not going to do anything about it. Cause I know somebody who lost their arm, right? But what happens is, is that, you know, if we get an injury to our brain, like, you know, in terms of a memory that is traumatic and experience that is traumatic, we have a tendency to go, well, and I did this for a long time. Well, you know, I know somebody who had it worse. I know somebody who went through something worse. So who am I to go get this treated? And that's sort of that, you know, that somewhat manliness sort of conversation comes in, I think.

And, and I think this is true for women too. I think our culture pushes this a lot regardless, but it's, it's actually just a useless ranking because you can't rank your trauma out of existence. All you do, you don't diminish your trauma. You just diminish your power to heal, and you delay your opportunity to heal. So I'm somebody who in my prior work was a politician, and maybe one day I'll do that again. And I recognize that people will probably take what I've written in this book, and some rivals would say, well, this guy's not fit. And my attitude about that, just like my attitude about whether you're being a real man by going to get help is I would much rather be led by people who have dealt with their stuff because everybody's got stuff.

You know, there's two types of people. There's people who got stuff and, and there's people who are pretending they don't got stuff. So I just rather, you know, work with the people who have dealt with it. Yeah. Cause you, you know, it's, it have dealt with it yeah because you you know it's it's about being clear having clarity and being honest with yourself and you know sometimes it's kind of like alcoholism the hardest step to do is admit you have a problem yeah and you know a lot

of men you know they bury this sort of stuff you know our feelings usually aren't welcome anywhere and and so you know we just go man up suck it up whatever you know it's not a big deal and and sometimes just going hey maybe i should have this looked at is a good thing right yeah yeah so what any future political aspirations anything you've got on the horizon that you're planning to do i mean i don't have any plans which is the thing politicians always say when they have plans but i actually you know for me it's like i'm I'm enjoying my life and I wasn't before. And so that was one of the reasons I was really motivated to be constantly thinking about what I can do. And I feel like I'm still in public service. I, you know, I had the opportunity to make a big difference in people's lives through Veterans

Community Project. That's really important to me. And at the same time, you know, I'm really enjoying my family. So if, you know, in the future, my kids are eight and two, they're about to be nine and eight and one, they're about to be nine and two. They both have September birthdays. And, you know, when they get older, it might be an adventure my wife and I want to undertake, but it might not. I don't know. I still feel like I'm in politics. You know, I serve on the board of Giffords and the board of let America vote. And, and I, I'm an activist. I just, it's not what I get paid to do anymore. Yeah.

Well, you have the podcast, too, there as well. You guys talk about politics over there. I have a pretty popular political podcast, so I have an opportunity to participate in the debate and to move the conversation. So, yeah, I'm pretty happy with how things are. That's awesome, man. Well, I'm glad you're contributing, and I'm glad you found your peace, man.

Finding your peace and being able to live within the confines of your own mind. And if that's a peaceful place, then everyone around you is happy and peaceful. And I'm sure your kids will love it and I'm sure your wife enjoys it. And you meet a whole different person. And so hopefully more people, if they hear this or read your book, will reach out and get some help. And, you know, it doesn't hurt. Like people have asked me, what would you do if you could go back and talk to your 16 or teenage self again?

I'd be like, go to therapy. Yeah, yeah, right on. My great uncle told me that therapy is just about getting a master's degree in yourself. I like that. Yeah, it's right on. That should be a meme or something. That should, that's brilliant.

You know, it's, it's, it's sad that sometimes we go through life and I, I, maybe this is just part of the journey we have to go on, but you, you don't learn about yourself as much until you've, you've left enough trauma behind you, you know, and you look back and you go, Hey, everything has been on fire for the last two years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe it was me. Yeah. You know.

Yeah. That's the big twist. That's the big in-line show on twist that it was actually you. Yeah. It's actually you. I see. I see. And the destruction.

Anyway, it's been wonderful having you on the show. Thank you for coming on. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. And give us your dot coms, if you would, one more time before we go on. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. And give us your dot coms, if you would, one more time before we go. So you can find me at Jason Kander dot com. And then I'm on Instagram and Twitter at Jason Kander. The book, you can you can buy the book in a way that supports independent bookstores by going to Invisible Storm book dot com or,

you know, you can get the book wherever you get books. There you go, guys. Order up the book if you would, please. Invisible Storm, A Soldier's Memoir of Politics and PTSD, available July 5th, 2022. Get it wherever fine books are sold. Remember, stay out of those alleyway bookstores. They're dangerous. You might get a nail or tetanus shot or something. Anyway, guys, thanks for tuning in. Be sure to go to YouTube.com, 4ChessChrisFossoss. See all of our groups on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, all those crazy kids are playing.

Goodreads.com for Chess Chris Voss as well. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe, and we'll see you guys next time.