The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – It’s Never Been a Level Playing Field: Overcoming 8 Racial Myths to Even the Field by Steve Brigham

Episode Date: October 6, 2024

It's Never Been a Level Playing Field: Overcoming 8 Racial Myths to Even the Field by Steve Brigham https://www.amazon.com/Never-Been-Level-Playing-Field/dp/B0D785ZDC9/ In It's Never Been a Level Playing Field, the author embarks on a journey to dissect and challenge the deeply ingrained myths that continue to perpetuate racial inequality in America. Each chapter delves into a specific myth, from the fallacy of equal opportunity to the enduring inequalities in housing, education, and justice systems. In this book, you will: Uncover the pervasive influence of White-oriented systems and beliefs that have shaped American society for centuries. Understand the historical structures, both legal and cultural, that have upheld White advantage and supremacy. Dismantle the illusion of a level playing field and expose systemic biases that disadvantage African Americans in housing, education, and justice systems. Learn how these myths intersect and perpetuate racial inequity and injustice in modern America. Discover a roadmap for systemic change and transformative policies to build a more equitable future. It's Never Been a Level Playing Field is a call to action for all Americans to understand race issues in America and contribute to the fight for equality. Read this book and join the movement toward a more just and inclusive America. It's Never Been a Level Playing Field offers a profound exploration of the deeply entrenched issues of race, privilege, and systemic inequality that have shaped the fabric of our nation. With keen insight, Brigham dissects the myths that perpetuate racial disparities and presents bold ideas for dismantling these longstanding injustices. To those in pursuit of John Lewis' good trouble, this book stands as a vital roadmap for understanding the roots of racial injustice and a compelling call to action for all of us to take part in building a more just and equitable society. A beloved community." State Delegate Jazz Lewis, Maryland House of Delegates, 24th District (Prince George's County) Comprehensive and bold, It's Never Been a Level Playing Field challenges readers to rethink racial inequality in America. Critiquing the fallacy of individual meritocracy, the book exposes the dirty underbelly of White supremacy and domination at the heart of the American project and its consequences for Black Americans. From urban renewal and redlining to the dumping of toxic waste in Black communities, Brigham shows how White Americans and institutions have upheld an unjust system through their action and inaction. In tracing how violent practices have endured and shape-shifted from slavery to our pretense politics, he shows why racial disparities and disadvantage persist in everything from education, health care, and criminal justice to housing and entrepreneurship—and what we can do about it. It's Never Been a Level Playing Field is sure to spark needed debate in classrooms and boardrooms, and around kitchen tables across the country. Willow S. Lung-Amam, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Urban Studies and Planning at the University of Maryland, College Park About the author Steve Brigham is a leader in the public engagement field who, for the past 24 years, has known great success as a facilitator, consultant, and designer of complex public meetings and community-building processes on critical public policy issues. He has facilitated numerous national and international forums. Since 2010, his bread-and-butter consulting has focused primarily on local and metro D.C. issues, such as land use policy, affordable housing, transportation, support for BIPOC business owners in jeopardy of displacement, economic development, and public school redistricting. In the past decade, Steve’s work and volunteer time have increasingly tackled racial equity and equitable development issues. Steve is the proud father of two bi-racial children and lives in Prince George's County, MD.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Why am I punching that so hard? I've just gotten over two weeks of COVID and just trying to keep the voice reckoning there. So if I blew out your eardrums and your stereo, you know, the FM CB 8-track you got there in the car.

If I blew out your stereo, then I'm sorry, eh? But you probably need an upgrade if you're using 8-track. Hey, guys, welcome to the big show. We appreciate you guys being here. As always, go to Goodreads.com, Fortress foss linkedin.com fortress chris foss chris foss one of the tiktokity all those crazy places on the internet where you find all sorts of weird stuff actually i'm not on the weird stuff sites those are kind of banned i think but anyway we have an amazing young man on the show with us today steve brigham is on the show with us today

did i get that pronounced right steve you did get it right not everyone does i forgot to check before we go you know i am in utah that's right this is true you're? You did get it right. Not everyone does. I forgot to check before we go. You know, I am in Utah. Right. This is true. You're more likely to get it right. Yeah. There was a prophet named Brigham Young here. Speaking of racism, he was incredibly racist to the point

that he can't even release his journal. And we'll be, I guess, getting into a little bit of that. Your book came out June 14th, 2024. It's called It's Never been a level playing field overcoming eight racial myths to even the field that sounds like a good idea steve is a leader in public engagement field who for the past 24 years has known a great success as a facilitator consultant and designer of complex public meetings and community building processes on critical public policy issues he's facilitated numerous national and international forums

it says 2010 is bread and butter consulting has focused primarily on local and metro dc issues such as land use affordable housing transportation support forIPOP business owners in Black, Indigenous, and people of color. Business owners in jeopardy of displacement, economic development, and public school redistricting. Welcome to the show, Steve. How are you? I'm great, Chris. Thanks for having me.

I love the whole introduction at the beginning of the show. It's all about the energy, baby. Exactly. It's all about the energy. Yeah, that's what sells. So give us your dot coms. Where can people find you on the interwebs or socials? All right.

So people can find me on LinkedIn, just Steve Brigham. They can find me on Substack, which is a newsletter platform. I have a newsletter called Leveling the Playing Field Finally. If they want the book, they can find it on Amazon at It's Never Been a Level Playing Field. I also have a website that's a little complicated, but it's never-a-levelfield.pubsitepro.com. Say that five times fast. So give us a 30,000 overview. What's in your new book? So I guess I'll start by just saying this is a set of issues that I've been struggling with as a white

man for 30 plus years. I was married to an African-American woman for 19 years. I got two biracial kids. I lived in Washington, D.C. When I first came, it was considered Chocolate City. I live in a majority black county in Maryland, Prince George's County. But I always kind of wrestled with why are we still so unbalanced racially in America? Why are whites still kind of so dominant in so many spheres? And why have African Americans, although they've made, you know, important progress in different places, why is it so still unfair, inequitable for them? So when COVID started, I spent four years writing and researching and came up with a book where honestly I learned 75% of it is totally new to me. Put it together as eight myths that we need to overcome around a level playing field, around continued segregation,

around where people live that leads to inequitable health outcomes, myths around economic opportunity, educational opportunity. And then I spend the last part of the book really saying, given that we now understand how the level, unlevel playing field has continued, what do we need to do about it? And I propose about two and a half dozen transformative solutions in a number of different arenas. What was your upbringing like? How were you raised? What were some of your influences? What got you down this road and kind of picking this career path? Yeah, so I grew up in Simsbury, Connecticut, suburb outside of Hartford. The town when I was

born and through my entire childhood was 99 point something percent white. It was a kind of a middle, upper middle class suburb. My parents though, during the 60s, got very interested and involved in supporting Martin Luther King and his movement, trying to make some changes in their white Protestant church, which they eventually left. My dad started a program in the early 70s bringing African American and Latino teenagers to our town to live for three years so they could attend a better high school. So I made black friends for the first time. And then when I left for college and throughout the 80s, my world was almost completely lily white where I went to college, the kind of jobs I got, the neighborhoods I lived in. But when I moved to Washington, D.C., I wanted to make an intentional

effort at really getting to know African-Americans as friends, as colleagues, and really getting to understand the issues. But it took the pandemic to get me to the point where I was ready to write a book. Yeah, the pandemic was great for book writing. It was. We kept some of the great authors on the show. It was great for writing books. It's a good time out to, you know, I remember sitting there going, what are you going to do? Write a book.

That book you've always been saying you're going to write. Exactly. Yeah, and it was a good penchant time to consider, you know, get penchant about who are we, what are we doing? What, why are we here? You know, what was it about? It really realigned a lot of my values and what I was focusing on, what my goals were. You know, it became a time where, you know, chasing money, cars, women, and, and not in

that order, but, you know, chasing success and always worried about buying the new thing, you know, it, and, and it kind of just crashed right into COVID where you're like, hey, I think I'm more worried about my family and friends because they can be taken from me in a moment. You know, even my guy friends, we started saying I love you and we'd hang up the phone because, you know. It was too uncomfortable for the aftermath. Yeah. I mean, we were just like, I mean, that's kind of where we were. We're at a bottom where it's like. Yeah, you don't know what's going to happen.

You don't know how long people are going to be there. I had several cousins who ended up in the ICU. I'm sorry. It was an ugly. And then I just got COVID for the first time two weeks ago. That's amazing. Still lingering around. Yeah, it's still lingering too.

I had such a good run. Anyway, this is why I avoid people in general. Right, you just stand behind the microphone, don't have to worry about it. So in your book, help us understand what some of these racial myths are. Can you tease out maybe one that you'd like to talk about that people can kind of understand what these myths are and how to either fix them or overcome them or re-approach them in a different way so that you're not being biased by them? Yeah. So, I mean, the overarching myth, which is the first chapter of the book, is that we now have a level playing field. And then as I really dug into it and you look at, in terms of the wealthiest Americans, members of Congress, cabinet members, who produces TV shows, who runs the media,

all the different sectors, the judiciary. It's like whites are dominant still in 2024, not dissimilarly to the way they were in the 60s and 70s when supposedly we really began to change things. So to me, that was an eye opener, realizing, you know, who produces radio shows, TV shows, who publishes books, you know, and name the sector, and it's white people, often white men, but not always. And so how much has really changed, you know, over the last 60 years, if that's still true. So that's one myth I look to dispel right out of the gate. And as I began to really understand the history better, so this is a nation designed by whites for whites, always has been from the very beginning. We changed kind of the definition

of who whites were throughout the centuries, throughout the decades. And when, you know, this was kind of an eye opener for me too. It's like when you think about affirmative action, you think about the laws and rules and regulations we put in place in the early 60s to try and help advance African Americans economically and educationally. The biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action that from then till now have been white women but if you look at what you know the true sense of what affirmative action means it's affirmative action for whites whether it was the homestead act giving out land in the from the 1860s to the 1960s the way we wrote the jim crow laws to help advance white people and hold back black people,

the way we did the New Deal, the way we did the GI Act, the way we ran highways through black neighborhoods in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. So all those things kind of came to the fore. And so I explore things like the where we live myth that blacks can pretty much live wherever they want. It's difficult if the majority of blacks are making lower wages, they're kind of low to middle income, there's not a lot of housing available in predominantly white neighborhoods. So you still see a nation that's very residentially segregated. You still see 70 years after Brown versus Board of Education that the schools, although differently, are almost as segregated as they were 50, 60 years ago. So I look to explore

that in depth to kind of really allow us to understand where we are right now and why and how we got there before I start really looking at, well, what do we need to do to make some transformative change? James Baldwin had a lot of discussions about, you know, when are things going to change? How long do I have to wait? Yeah, in the 60s, being on television. Yeah.

He's like, how long do I have to wait? How long do you want me to be patient? How long do you want me to wait for your little magic pill to take place? You know, that things are going to change. It's interesting. You know, we had Eddie Glaude Jr. on the show a couple years ago and i've done one twice now he wrote a great book on james baldwin and it was very moving for me to read it and it was the first time i've been exposed to buzz i was exposed a few months early to baldwin for the first time powerful writer yeah powerful thinker

and it was someone who wrote a book about the that mind-blowing debate that he had with the i would call him a racist the guy from the nation national the nation forget his name but it's a famous argument between the two of them and baldwin clearly just smacks out of the park wins and it just tears your heart out but you know it's it's something that's living with it is your book geared more to white people and understanding you know that we haven't really come as far as we think we have you know a lot of people including me you know we saw a black president president obama be put in the office we're like okay maybe we fix racism now we're a post-racial society was the

the term back in 2009 no i mean so i actually had a discussion early on as I was writing this with a friend of mine out in L.A. about whether I should be explicit about who I'm learning, the history that we don't know. We're not taught any of this stuff in high school, college, unless you take an African American studies course, which is not offered in most places. And in general, I don't think, I think white people are kind of blind to how unlevel things still are and why they're still unlevel. It's not victim blaming it's that we haven't changed systems policies laws practices in a bunch of arenas enough in order to really make a difference yeah we tried so much between you know going going after redlining which separated you know communities and stuff did a lot of damage that way did a lot of damage and really wasn't undone for a long time after the Fair Housing Act of 68. Yeah.

And we've had people that have come on the show and talked about, you know, the housing issues like kind of you alluded to. Yeah. Where it's, you know, most times black people can afford to move into a white neighborhood after it's, what's the word, gentrified? Yeah. Where, you know, it's been there for 30 years and white people are moving out and you know it's going through a re-recycling effect or re-convigoration re-gentrification you know they people come in and they improve the you know the homes usually pretty beat up by the go up and yeah and they go up way in value yeah improvements they they come in and they do the they do put the nice stuff on them and just kind

of make them a new home again technically but yeah it's really tough what are some other things that we need to be wary of is you know in our white privilege as it were that we think maybe is resolved but it's not yeah i mean so there there's a myth that a lot of the health challenges that african-americans have are just due to bad choices that they're making. But we don't understand that intentionally we cited a lot of polluting facilities, hazardous waste facilities in black neighborhoods, black and brown neighborhoods from the 20s after a decision made by the U.S. Supreme Court. Really, I mean, it continues today. And it's also done in lower income white neighborhoods, but historically, it's been mainly around black neighborhoods. And so you see higher levels of lead in children's blood, you see higher rates of asthma, you see a lot of African Americans in cities live in health deserts

or what I call health apartheid or medical apartheid. They don't have good access to quality health care. They don't have real access to quality supermarkets. Right. So it makes it that much more difficult to make positive health choices if you don't have good medical professionals nearby or if you don't have healthy food options nearby yeah i mean that's and that's a problem or jobs nearby you know jobs not not every not everyone has a car is our public transit systems and some cities are better than others is it geared towards the people who really need it to bring them to where they need to go either to do their shopping or more importantly to access

the jobs yeah and of course to give young men and women of course men will usually build families if they have money income and success but you know you you see a lot of strife in any community that doesn't have jobs available to it you can go into palestine or not palestine you can go into over and over in the middle East where a lot of these young men can't get jobs, so they decide the best job is being suicide bomber. In urban environments as well, there's people that, you know, decide to turn to drugs and crime and other issues because they don't have the support.

They don't have jobs available, readily available. They don't have good, maybe role models sometimes close by. You know, I mean, James Baldwin used to steal out of his area, his zone, and it was kind of largely determined as being, this is where the black people go in New York City, I think it was. And he would steal out to go to a library that he couldn't access. It was like a whites-only library to check out books. And that was, you know, he got busted by the cops. And, you know, I mean, he couldn't even check out a book to educate himself and thankfully he stuck with it and i think he got some favors and you know he look at what a great writer and contribution he made

to society but you know we need to look at all these things yeah i mean if you think about who who were the suburbs created for yeah Yeah. White families, right? And as they built the suburbs, white families moved out, black families were not allowed to. And all the manufacturing and kind of blue collar work that was based in downtowns followed the white people out to the suburbs. blacks who had access to decent or decent enough working class jobs in the cities all of a sudden couldn't either couldn't get out or, or didn't have, you know, the transportation to get out to.

And, and so you saw black unemployment go way up in the sixties and seventies during that whole, that whole phase. Yeah. And then it created a lot of dysfunction. Yeah. You know,

that you were just talking about. That's what's great about edgy, getting educated about all this stuff is, you know, you can understand what's really going on. And I think a lot of people, you know, we're busy doing our own little private Idaho crap that we're always up to. But, you know, a lot of people, you know, you need to realize the world's bigger than you. And that's kind of what 9-11 delivered to me. They delivered to me that, hey, the world's things that are going on in the world. I woke up one day, I'm like, why do people hate us so much? And why do I have bombs dropping on us?

And maybe I should learn about the world and what's going on and how they perceive us and interact with us. And maybe it's me. So I did that and you know you I think you know you have to kind of reach that point with your stuff where you where you try and understand your world better and see how it's working and stuff so yeah I mean you know we don't learn enough about American foreign policy and all the engagements we had in you know Asia Africa Central America South America where you know you know orchest Asia, Africa, Central America, South America, where, you know, you know, orchestrating coups and, and the whole nine yards, right? And then it's why,

why do people hate us? And it's not that they don't hate the Russians or whatever. But, you know, when you when you travel overseas, there's kind of a bifurcated attitude you get people love meeting Americans. And at the the same time they tend to look down on the American government. Because of past history. Oh yeah, we've done so many stupid things to put our thumb on the scale and shit. I remember growing up reading

1000 Days by Schlesinger on John F. Kennedy's administration and all the shit we were up to with the CIA. The stuff that we've done to Southern America, we almost should just, and we owe them. We have fucked that continent so fucking hard with all of our bad decisions and Ronald Reagan,

you name it, it's just been a, it's just, it's sad that we look at immigration with such hate and disregard. We created immigration from the South. We we did we've been wrecking stuff there since the 60s it's true so the reason why governments are shit everyone wants to come here is because we made it that way you know some of the ecuadorian shit that went on with reagan yeah it's important that we realize what do you hope people come away with the book what do you hope today walk away from going, I've learned something

new today. What is it? Yeah. I think just like I was able to do, take the time to learn the history, like you said, so that you have a more sophisticated and complex understanding of why things are the way they are. But one of the great things that I've seen in dozens of the reviews of my book online on Amazon is people really appreciate the thoughtful ideas for what we can do. You know, I organized the solutions into four different chapters. One was around transforming the education landscape for African-American youth. And some of the things I propose can be done. It can be done for all youthAmerican youth. And some of the things I propose can be done, it can be done for all youth, right? But with a strong emphasis in order to repair the past

with African-Americans. So funding universal birth to three and pre-K three and pre-K four. When that's done, people have studied the outcomes during childhood, adolescence, and adulthood is much higher than those who didn't get those kind of programs. Significantly increased federal Title I funding. Federal Title I funding goes to schools in higher poverty neighborhoods, but it's never enough, doesn't make enough difference if we're really serious about transforming our K-12 schools. And especially,

I think, in the first six to eight years, we need to think about funding differently. I say provide a Black New Deal for African American high school graduates. The New Deal that escaped intentionally, we didn't include African Americans, for the most part, in all the New Deal programs. They weren't involved with Social Security. They weren't involved. You know, the Fair Labor Relations Act didn't apply to them, so on and so forth. And even the GI Bill, for the most part, African-Americans were not able to access it like white Americans, like my father, who fought in the Korean War? What about a Black New Deal for

African American high school graduates to give them free access to post-secondary education, whether that's certificate programs, community college, or four-year college, so that they are better prepared to compete in the economic landscape? So there's kind of transformative ideas. All of them would be really hard to pull off, especially in our current political landscape, how divided we all are. But if we're really serious about tackling and making right all the wrongs of the last 200 years, and even in the last 60 years, those are the kind of transformative solutions that we need to think about transforming our housing and zoning laws. You know, most white communities still only allow for single detached houses, right? And sometimes it dictates like it's got to be at least a quarter acre,

half acre, which makes it more expensive, which makes it more exclusive. So we need to be looking at, you know, where we cite polluting facilities, no longer in black and brown neighborhoods, right? New Jersey passed a law during the pandemic that there would be a whole different process for figuring out where to cite polluting facilities, hazardous waste facilities, and that with a special attention to not doing it in black and brown neighborhoods and low income neighborhoods. So, you know, I try to address the territory that I talk about in the history. And now what do we do?

And now what do we do? You know, it's really important. And I think we need to, this country used to be about a rising tide lifts all boats. And we didn't think in scarcity. We thought in abundance. And we thought, you know, if we bring all these people, create this melting pot of a country and they, you know, we have all these

people from all these different walks of life, from all these different backgrounds, all these different cultures, they will build something amazing. And we did that for a large part of, I think, of our history. I mean, we're not perfect. There are dark parts of our history as well. You know, what we did to for a large part of, I think, of our history. I mean, we're not perfect. There are dark parts of our history as well.

You know, what we did to American Indians, American natives. You know, we haven't been the best of people. But we're hopefully, as the Constitution says, and I remember President Obama saying one time, we zig and we zag, and we're always on course to building that perfect union. But we're never going to achieve it i mean it's just being on that road hopefully makes you better and you get better but you know identifying that helping communities that have been racially blighted or ignored or discriminated against or created in a way to subjugate or handicap them. And we need to recognize that exists.

And that a rising tide lifts all boats and that we need to work from a mindset of abundance. Because there's no corner on who has the best ideas to who's going to contribute stuff to society. You know, you look at Steve Jobs, his father was an immigrant. If he hadn't been allowed to come to this country, boy, it'd be a really different time right now.

Yeah. You look at the impact of the iPhone and what he did with Apple. I mean, he literally changed the world in so many ways. Maybe not for the better when it comes to social media and people's dopamine addiction, too. That's for another segment. As we go out, final thoughts to people. Now, is there any upcoming, do you do any coaching?

Do you do any future events maybe upcoming that you want to plug? Anything we need to plug before we go? That's a good question. I mean, I wrote this book while also having my own consulting practice. A lot of the consulting I do is around community-based issues, some of which I cover in the book, and I do it in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area. But I can be reached to do any kind of facilitation around public policy issues, wherever that might take place. My email address is steve at publicengagementassociates.com. With regard to my book, I have a book launch party that I'm doing in a couple weeks in Prince George's County, my home county. It's mainly targeted toward audiences in the DC area. I also, I write a

sub stack newsletter that I talked about earlier called leveling the field. Finally, I've got, I write one or two newsletters a week. Would love to have more people join that. Would love to have people go to amazon.com and buy the book. It's never been a level playing field. So got a lot going on, trying to learn the ins and outs of marketing and promoting a book while working full time. But it's been a great journey. I guess one thing that I'd be remiss because I haven't not mentioned it yet is just that one of the issues, one of the nuts to crack is how do we create a single racial justice system rather than a bifurcated one, one for whites and one for non-whites and especially African-Americans? Because, you know, I just have a statistic here and I want to read it real

quickly. First of all, in schools, black students are suspended four times more than white students. Oh, wow. Blacks make up 15% of the country's drug users, but 30% of those arrested for drug violations, 59% of those convicted, 74% of those sent to prison for a drug offense. And even with cannabis, they're arrested at four times the rate of whites, even though they're equal in terms of use. You know, that's another thing that we really, and you tackle that primarily at the local level. So I would encourage your listeners to really think about, you know, what can be done, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, LA, because there are so many kind of mini racial justice

or criminal justice systems throughout every jurisdiction in America. And that's where the change needs to happen. It all begins with us. We are the stewards of our democracy, people. We're the stewards of the American ideal, the dream. And we need to start getting back to where we think in an abundance mindset. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Immigrants and different people made this country great. There is no one smart people on this planet. I'm a white person, and i know a lot of damn ass stupid white people in fact i might know more of them than than anyone else so i've seen jerry springer damn it anyway right and mort downey and yeah all that you know it's no one is above reproach and i think it is and I think it's important that we lift all boats. We make sure everyone gets a hand up. The people, you know, the ability, the greatest thing about the American ideal

and the dream is it says to people, you can become something if you work hard enough and you give back. Now, it's not a guarantee, but it is an option. You know, in a communist country, they go, I don't care what your ideas are or what you do or how hard you work.

You get the same pay as everybody else. So shut up, sit down, and just die with no passion, I guess. I don't know. And enjoy bread lines. And everybody needs to live off that ideal and have that opportunity because the things that they'll create, the things they'll innovate, the businesses they'll make can change the world. You know, solve cancer, innovate technology. There's no one person who has all the good ideas in it, regardless of color. And it's really important we start, you know, this is a constant fight.

We're going to be fighting this for, we've been fighting, you know, since white people have been on America's soil, what, 400 years or something like that? We've been fighting racism. And we probably got a few hundred more years we're going to have to be fighting. I hope not. I hope not. I hope not. I hope for my kids' sake. Yeah, you and me and Baldwin and God Jr.

But, you know, for the most part, you know, we've got some ugly things coming down the pike. You know, we see, I was just reading yesterday about how white nationalists are attacking, which are basically kka racists are attacking some of the republican people who are speaking out against some of the racist stuff that's going on in our politics and blatant dog whistling and things of that nature and until we as a people say we're not going to tolerate that from our politicians anymore we're not going to tolerate that sort of language and instead people, people are supporting for voting and giving money to it. It just shows you how far we are from.

Yeah. I mean, there's been a real comeback of white nationalists and that ilk over the last 15, 20 years. Kind of scary. Yeah, it really, it even surprised me. I mean, I remember the day after Donald Trump won and they're like, yeah, white nationalists put him in the thing. I'm like, who are these white nationalists? Just rebranded KKK is all it is. Anyway, rising tide lifts all boats, people.

Thank you very much for coming to the show. Give us your dot coms as we go out so people can find you on the interwebs. So my website is never-a-levelfield.pubsitepro.com and my newsletter is levelthefield.substack.com. Thank you very much for coming on the show.

Chris, thank you. This has been great. Really appreciate the conversation. You got it. Thanks for tuning in. Go to Goodreads.com, Fortuness, Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, Fortuness, Chris Foss, Chris Foss1, TikTok. All those crazy places on the internet.

Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time. That should have us out. Great show.