The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Jake Stahl, Fractional Chief Learning Officer, Conversational Learning Dynamics Pioneer

Episode Date: November 25, 2023

Jake Stahl, Fractional Chief Learning Officer, Conversational Learning Dynamics Pioneer Jakestahlconsulting.com Show Notes About The Guest(s): ​ Jake Stahl is a fractional Chief Learning Officer and a pioneer in conversational dynamics. With over 30 years of experience in training and development, Jake has impacted over 10,000 individuals across six countries. He helps companies develop onboarding programs for sales representatives and teaches them how to have better conversations with customers. ​ Summary: ​ Jake Stahl, a fractional Chief Learning Officer, joins Chris Voss on The Chris Voss Show to discuss the importance of meaningful conversations in the sales process. Jake emphasizes the significance of establishing a cadence and rhythm in conversations, rather than focusing solely on content. He introduces the "2-10 rule," which suggests that for every two minutes of conversation, there should be an interaction or check for understanding. Jake also highlights the power of using the word "because" in communication to increase compliance. ​ Key Takeaways: ​ - Establishing a cadence and rhythm in conversations is crucial for building rapport and trust. - The "2-10 rule" suggests that for every two minutes of conversation, there should be an interaction or check for understanding. - Using the word "because" in communication can significantly increase compliance. ​ Quotes: ​ - "The cadence is far more important than content." - "The word 'because' can dramatically change the compliance of the person on the other end of the phone." - "We're just trying to be human again."

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When the Iron Lady sings it, that's when you know the know the Christmas show has finally officially launched in all its glory. I should have someone sing that as well. The glory of the Christmas show or something of that nature. I don't know, man. We might be getting a little too patriotic or, I don't know, declaring our own narcissistic sort of self-effacing podcast. I don't know what any of that means i just said but i just made it up hey guys welcome to chris fosh show the family loves you but doesn't judge you at least on this harshly it's your mother-in-law as always for 15 years

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There's a private messenger for it. So I don't know. But there's no Snapchat. So there's that. We have an amazing gentleman on the show. We're going to be talking to him about what he does. Jake Stahl is going to be joining us on the show. He's a Fractionals Chief Learning Officer.

So that would be an F-C-L-O. I can't even keep up with all these topics. I can barely. All I know is what co stands for i don't even know what uh coo stands for i think that just stands for coo coo coo i don't know what it means uh conversational learning dynamics pioneer is what jake stahl does and he's going to enlighten his uh our knowledge or our wannabe knowledge that we're going to get from with all the stuff that he does. Jake is a pioneer in conversational dynamics and highly regarded fractional chief learning officer. He is revolutionizing sales through his adaptive conversational blueprint, turning sales professionals into relational architects capable of forging profound

connections with prospects. Integral to his approach is the 2-10 rule, which challenges traditional perspectives on conversation and emphasizes the importance of rhythm and cadence. Boy, we could all use that here at the show. With a rich background spanning 30 years, Jake has shared his expertise in training and development across six countries, impacting over 10,000 individuals. A master mason and father of four, Jake seamlessly blends practical experience and insightful wisdom in the pursuit of the perfect conversation, empowers businesses through masterful conversations. I was just getting ready to say, that's a beautifully worded and well-put biography, Jake, but I suppose that's what we should expect from you.

Welcome to the show, Jake. How are you? Great, Chris. Thank you for having me. It's exciting to be here. Thank you for coming as well. Give us your dot coms. Where do you want people to find out about you on the interwebs?

You can find me on LinkedIn under Jake Stahl, and you can certainly go to my website, which is jakestahlconsulting.com. There you go. So give us a 30,000 overview of what you do in your words. Sure. As a fractional chief learning officer, I go into companies and I help them develop onboardings for their sales representatives. So a lot of times a company will have kind of random acts of training that they do, but there's nothing organized and there's nothing pulled together and coagulated into a cohesive unit. So I go in, I develop the onboarding, and then I help the sales representatives

have far better conversations with their customers than they're having right now. There you go. And conversations translate to sales evidently, correct? Absolutely right. Yeah. And it's, you know, I remember growing up in the nineties, we, I worked at a car dealership for a time and, and they were, they were trying to get us all to quit say doing the gonna help you that's exactly right yeah and they're like just stop doing that you know and and i think somewhere out of that i developed our process that i talked about um called uh uh what was the question we always made our sales people do what are you trying to accomplish we'd ask the

client what are you trying to accomplish and if they didn't ask that as the first question, you know, other than just the meet and greet rapport builders, I would choke them. Um, which, uh, I guess the judge says I can't do anymore. So tell me what this fractional thing is. Let's lay a foundation for that for people that don't know, because we get a lot of fractional, uh, CEOs and, and I think C CMOs and I think we have everybody on who's been fractional. Tell us what that means. So fractional means that you go into a company and you fill in for a C-level spot. So you're actually among the group that steers the company and you're there for a fractional period of time. So it's not like a contract where you're there for six months. It's

more where you are there for several hours a week. So you may give four hours a week, five hours a week, and then be available for texts or phone calls. But it's not the same as contract work or consulting work because you're at a different level and you're functioning as one of the drivers of the company. I need to add this to my Tinder dating profile because I'm a fractional dating person. I don't do the full-time position of ownership in marriage. I think some people call it, but I'm a fractional husband. That's why I think I'm going to start calling myself a fractional husband. Yeah, just add an F to the front of your title and I think you're ready to go.

Most people I date use the F word, describe me anyway, as in like, F that guy. So there you go. So how long have you been doing this and you've really developed your craft in building conversations. And let's delve into this. Why are conversations so important in the sales process? Well, it's not just a conversation, Chris. It's almost the cadence of it. And what is cadence? So explain that for people like me who flunk second grade and people who need the Gen Zers. Sure. Think about it this way.

If you watch two young kids communicate five six years old it's a very fluid communication that's my mom which one is yours i like trucks what do you like i'm five how old are you it's a distinct back and forth but what happens chris is somewhere along the line sales people cross over into a zone where conversation is no longer apparent. It's falling back on a script. It's answering objections. It's segmented out into portions. And we don't do that in real life with anybody. We don't segment out our conversation.

We let it flow by creating a steady back and forth. We establish a cadence. And the problem is with some of the sales teams that I work with is they put a big emphasis on content. So I'm going to tell you this and you're going to listen to that, but they never established the back and forth that's conversational. So I have, as you read my bio, what I call the two 10 rule. It's a basic rule for establishing a cadence, but even though it's a basic rule, it's super hard to follow through on. And it takes a lot of work by people. Somehow that shift from

personal conversation to business just causes a complete change in the way we communicate. Really? And then so give us a description of what the 210 rule is. Sure. So pardon me, the 210 rule basically says that for every two minutes you're conversing in a long conversation, perhaps a sales pitch or you're training people or in a boardroom, for every two minutes you're pitching, you look for an interaction or you create an interaction with a person. You check for understanding, you get them involved in the conversation. Then once you hit that 10

minute mark, you regroup. Hey, I've covered a lot in the last 10 minutes. Is there anything you didn't understand? Is there anything you need me to repeat? But the 210 rule isn't just 210. You could interact more often. For all intents and purposes, it could be a 30 second, five minute rule. But all you're doing is you're establishing cadence of back and forth, checking for understanding and making sure that your message is getting across. And Chris, when you talk to other people during the day, most people will do this with you in a direct conversation. But as soon as you get on the phone call with a salesperson, it's like that dynamic just dies. It goes out the window and companies that I've worked with to do this have, some of them have three X sales and increase

their customer service ratings by as much as one and a half stars. It's amazing the difference cadence makes because without cadence, the content doesn't mean a thing. And would you say that this falls in, same sort of, I love the fact where you make sure everyone's on the same page. You're kind of flushing out, what, you know, from my training of sales in the background and Zig Ziglar stuff is you're kind of flushing out, making sure there aren't any objections, but you're also building rapport. And then you're also getting, you know, the test close where, do you understand what I said?

I used to read a lot of Zig Ziglar. Yep. So is that, is that in the same frame of what you're discussing and building rapport and stuff like that? It is. And I think Chris, it takes it a step farther. I think a lot of sales companies or companies that are looking to increase revenue with a direct sales force, look at it as though, if I can push as much information as possible, it's going to be great.

But they don't bother to establish that rapport. Nobody wants to listen to it. So it actually goes beyond just the checking for understanding. It goes into relationship building. It goes into trust building because something really cool happens when somebody feels good about a conversation. They attribute that good feeling to speaking to you. And what that leads to is another conversation. So you're not just setting the tone for a conversation. You're setting the precedent for conversations to come. There you go. I can use this dating too. Uh, you know, if you're, if you have a great conversation and make people feel good and feel important, um, you know, you might get a second date. Uh, you know, this is a, to me, gaining, building rapport is a lost art in business.

And I mean, I get hit, I get this, you know, we're pretty big on LinkedIn. I, you know, we can't even, I don't think we can take new people anymore and connect or I think, I think we have to keep going in and unfollowing people to connect. Uh, and, um, and I, I get flooded with, uh, all sorts of advertisements and sales and pitches and man, they don't build any rapport with you, man. They just go right for it. They do not take me to dinner and wine and dime me they just they're just like sales pitch boom yeah i got one like that today yeah you're like i don't know you're from adam man you gotta wine and dime me before you

you you put the old big kisser on me uh at least that's what we say on Fridays, right? But dating callback jokes this show. It's a theme. But gaining rapport and what you said, building trust and a relationship with people. People buy from, and correct me if I'm wrong, but this used to be the case, people buy from people that they like, people they trust,

people that they feel have their best interests at heart. That's why we always used to be the case. People buy from people that they like, people they trust, people that they feel have their best interests at heart. That's why we always used to ask people, what are you trying to accomplish? Because people would be like, wait, you care about what I'm trying to accomplish? You want to help me achieve my goals? And I like your 210 rule because, you know, I've always been told that, hey, you know, talk and gain rapport. And you're like, well, at what point do I do the thing?

So you actually give a timing format for people to check in and make sure they're not running the client's ear off. Well, and on top of that, Chris, think about the preconditioning people have now of salespeople. If you look back to the teachings of B.F. Skinner, who was a big psychologist, his whole theory was there is no such thing as free will. We're all just one big set of preconditioned responses, responses we've given that have yielded good results in the past. So anything we do once we get to a certain place in life reflects back on the decision we made before and we're just recycling. So if you think about where we are as salespeople right now, people are so preconditioned to automatically dislike us as a group of people that breaking through that conditioning should literally be your first step. As soon as a salesperson comes on and says, Hey, how are you? Bing, the preconditioning buzzer goes off. They start to shut down and you have to fight to

just get back to normal again. A lot of the things I talk about with companies is how to break that. Because until you do, you're fighting an uphill battle. Definitely. And it's all about sales, but the relationships you build can go a lot of places. I mean, sometimes I've built great relationships with people, and they're like, I'm just not in the market to buy what you do. But you get referrals and loyalty, customer loyalty as well. You talk about the rhythm and rapport. How does that play into what we've been talking about here?

Well, when it comes to the rhythm and the rapport, I truly believe, and after 30 years of doing this in multiple countries and in multiple different industries, I think rhythm leads to the rapport. Because let's face it, if you meet somebody for the first time and they talk your ear off and it's all about them and very little about you, there's no rhythm there. It's a one side megaphone in your face of what they did. And that can really destroy rapport. Think about when somebody calls you on the phone and you look at the caller ID and you're like, oh, good Lord, not them. I just don't have the time. I'm not going to pick up. I'm going to bet money that that person never established that rhythm of, hey, how are you after they've told me about them. So in my opinion, Chris, rhythm is everything when it comes to rapport. And again, the cadence is far, far more important than content. There you go. So what are some other ways people can develop

the right rhythms and cadence? Do we need to have like a drum beat metronome in the background going on? I get asked that all the time. Do I have to look at my watch? My answer is simple. If you need to, to get back into this, maybe it's not the worst thing in the world. This is something we have to think about again. We have to think about, oh my God, have I been talking that whole time? When I network with people, I can't tell you how many times I hear people say, oh my God, I've dominated the conversation. Well, that's because I want to hear what you have to say. So I think one of the biggest things we can do is not talk with the thought of talking again and not listening with a thought of talking.

We need to take a breath. And after somebody's done talking, you even pause one second. It says a lot about who you are, about what they've said, and about what their conversation means to you. It's never anything huge that makes a difference in a sales conversation. It's the basics. I taught the martial arts for 20 years. And if I ever got into an altercation, I'd probably break it down into two moves that I just know well. It doesn't have to be fancy. It just has to work.

There you go. That's also what my Tinder profile says. I don't know what that means. Just a callback. It's funny, but I don't even know what the hell that means. So you bring up a good point. And then of course, what I don't even know what the hell that means. Uh, so yeah, you, you bring up, you bring up a good point. And then of course, what I'm doing with you right now, reflecting what you said back to you, uh, let's the, let's your prospect know that you care and you listen to what they said and, and what matters, you know, and you're just not pushing, you know, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell myself. Uh, and it seems like that listening and like i mentioned before rapport building is just a real lost art that a lot of sales people don't get i would agree

and i think chris that's the danger we're coming into with ai is we're going to be so focused on just generating messages that listening is going to become an even more lost art. One of my favorite sayings is a lion never has to tell you it's a lion. You just know. And so if a sales rep has to go in and constantly tell you they're a lion, you're not one. So I know I'm going to bruise the ego of a lot of salespeople, but I've been there, I've sold, and it's about you, and then it's about your product. And when you say it's about you, do you mean as in how you sell the client or the client wants to buy from you first and then your client? Is that what you mean? Yeah. And just as a step beyond that, the client really does need to like you. They need to have bought into who you are and what you are. I can tell you that when I was growing up, my dad owned a pharmacy, privately held pharmacy. And people used to come to our

pharmacy, even though we were higher priced than the chains, because my dad knew everybody by name. Hundreds of customers, and he'd call them by name when they came in, had nothing to do with price. It had to do with him. And they were willing to pay more to get that satisfaction of being recognized. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I, I, uh, I'm a big believer in that. They, they, people buy you.

I mean, that sales is everything. I used to have people that would come on the car a lot when I was a kid and I bring this up because it was when I was first learning sales and, you know, they'd be like, Hey, we're, we're going to go around all the different dealerships, kick the tires. You know, we're not sure if we want a Chevy or a Ford, you know, or whatever the hell it was. And you'd go ahead and do your sales shtick and gain rapport. And I really like people, and so I talked to them about what their lives were and what they were trying to accomplish and stuff.

And then if they liked you, they'd usually end up buying from you. And I'd sit and think after the sale, and I'm like, you know, they ended up buying me, and they really liked me, and they shook know, they, they just had such a good time and thank me. And they were telling me when they first met me, they were going to go drive all over town. You know, maybe they had some friend they knew at Ford dealership and we were at the Chevy and, and, uh, I'm like, you know, it's kind of funny how that works where I hear so many people, you know, they say they're going to go drive around town. Sometimes they would, you know, be like, hey, we're going to go, Chris. And I'm like, well, sit down and work at a deal and, you know, see what's going on. Or maybe, you know, you don't like, you know, I discovered maybe they didn't like that particular model or car. You know, we learned to, you know, go, well, let's, you know, find something you would do want.

I didn't realize you didn't like that. But yeah, it was always funny to me because I'd be be like it's kind of weird when they first met me they they were gonna go i i used to sit and wonder like why do people you know they just walked onto a car lot and they bought the first car that i sold them yeah and they bought you and and now it's gotten to the stage where i just bought a car not long ago and the person was far more interested in me giving them five stars afterward. It's like, if you're going to give me anything less than five stars, let me know beforehand. Really? Well, it's going to be about what you earned, not about me calling you to tell you you could have been a star better.

Yeah. I hate that stuff that companies are making people do that too. Yep. It's the, it's the guilt thing. And you're like, you know, like you get that from the cable company and the poor agent goes,

Hey, can you make sure and give me the stars? And you're like, well, I hate your cable company. You were, you gave me great service for this one call, but I,

I mostly just hate your cable company and I can't do anything about it. Cause you're a monopoly. But I know that if I give Bob, you know, less than five stars, Bob's getting fired tomorrow. So I got to deal with that sort of guilt. It's funny you mentioned that, Chris. I don't have cable anymore. I stream everything. But when I had a cable company not long ago, they called me one day to check in.

And when the end of the call came, I said, so do you have two minutes for a survey? And they said, what do you mean? I said, how would you rate me as a customer? Was I good to you on this phone call? And I started doing that. And I could tell that I had gone completely off script for them. And there was a dead silence on the other end of the phone. But again, there's another thing with sales. You get so far on script, you can't go off. But yeah, it was a stunning. I'd love to hear what she told her family that night about the conversation.

That's hilarious. I did get a five stars as a customer, though. Did you, though? Yeah, absolutely. Good job. You're a good customer. More people should use you. You talk about something called, and I think we've alluded this a little bit in our conversation we've been having, but you talk about beyond the script, revolutioning sales with the adaptive conversational blueprint.

That probably plays into what we're talking about a little bit. It does. The adaptive conversational blueprint was something I came up with after looking at a value-based selling model and looking at experience I've had over the past 30 years. And it talks about the perception that the customer has of you and several key points you need to cover in your conversation before the sale is going to hit. So the blueprint basically says, if you cover these specific points in your value message, the chances of you getting to the next step with that customer are going to be pretty significant. If you don't cover those, I can promise you it's going to be more difficult. And it's gotten to

the point where when I listened to a call from a salesperson, I can tell what part of the value prop they didn't have. And I can help them pinpoint where they went astray. So the blueprint is nothing more than a way to say, are you doing the 210 rule? Do you understand what their perception of you is and how your perception of them is guiding the conversation? And then some basic pieces of information people need to know to make a decision. How quickly am I going to get value from this? How much effort do I have to put into it? How close is it to my dream outcome? The thing that I expected.

So if you cover those different pieces, it just makes the conversation a lot better. So I guess what I'm saying is the method that I teach has a very simple process to get through. It's nothing difficult, but the 210 rule is a big part of that blueprint. There you go. Uh, you talk about, um, a lot about meaningful conversations. How do I know when I'm in, you also talk about flawless communications. How do I know when I'm having a meaningful conversation as opposed to, Hmm, it's pretty meaningless maybe. And I'm just blabbering. Whether we do it consciously or unconsciously, we all go into a conversation with expectations. So am I going to be happy when I get off this?

And again, going back to the caller ID, is this person going to depress me? And I know they're going to, is this person going to support me? And I know I'm going to. So the subconscious basically says, what do you expect to get out of this conversation? And specific to a salesperson, every customer has their goal in mind of what they

want to get out of it. The real question is, how likely do they feel they are to get that from the conversation? So Chris, if you and I talk today, and I went to this podcast thinking, you know, boy, this is going to be just the best thing I've ever done. What are the chances of that happening? And did I contribute to it? And how did I contribute to it? And was it meaningful? So how close was it to reaching what my outcome was that I had in my head while I'm there? And Chris, I would argue that you never got out of a conversation

where you didn't do a debrief in your head afterwards that, oh my God, I'm never going to get that time back. Or, hey, you know what? Actually, I felt pretty good about that. And I think we got somewhere. So consciously or unconsciously, we all do that debrief as to whether there was meaning or not. The question is, are you aware of it?

Wow. You just gave me an incredible epiphany. And as I mentioned, the lead in the show, this is why we do the show because I learned so much from every guest. I never thought of that. I mean, I do it. I'm, you know, now that you mentioned, I'm conscious that I do it where I'm like, yeah, that guy sold the, you know, suck the soul out of my life. Talking my ear off, you know, how can I get that hour back? Uh, but you're right. And when we do that evaluation, are we determining, are we terminating? What the hell is with the words today? Uh, are we determining, uh, I need more of your strategic, whatever thing you got going

on there when you write your bios. Um, is that an AI editor you're using? I need more of your strategic whatever thing you got going on there when you write your bios. Is that an AI editor you're using? But can we get an AI to write my goddamn script for me? When we do these meaningful conversations, I've segued and lost the total track of where I was. Oh, when we do that reflection, are we trying to determine if we're going to do future business? What do we do with that evaluation, I guess is what I'm trying to ask. Yeah, and it's an excellent question. My thought is you're setting a precedent for the next conversation.

In a couple of ways, not only for your next conversation in life, like if you talk with somebody and you get furious or you get depressed, you're setting the precedent for the next person that you talk to because chances are you're going to carry at least a little bit of that mood into the next conversation. And you're also setting a precedent for the next conversation with that person. So if you and I have a great conversation, you go, man, that Jake's a great guy to talk to. I'm looking forward to us talking again at some point. Or to your point from earlier, Jake sucked my soul out and I honestly don't ever want to talk to him again. Yeah. Unless you're into that sort of thing. Yeah. The soul sucking, I'm sure. I think there's an only chance for that. I don't know. So you're really, you're setting the precedent. And again, whether that's conscious or unconscious, it's happening.

And let's look at your dating theme that we seem to be on here. It's the callback. You're setting a precedent for the callback. There you go. Do they want to call you back or are they looking forward to it? That's true. And they think about you. And I imagine we put things in a place.

Like I have places I like to buy from, but it's the people that make it fun for me and and make it more valuable because you know you can buy from anywhere you know some things uh but it's the people that make it the the thing uh for me that matters you know i was reading recently that uh the companies that started doing this huge rollout across the world where they started doing these automated tellers, you know, the automated swiping that you have to do at the grocery store. You don't speak to a cashier hardly anymore.

Um, and they try to force everybody to do the work. I've heard they're starting to roll those back for a lot of different reasons. And they're finding that customers don't like it. They're very unhappy with it. Evidently, the amount of theft and fraud because people cheat the systems has gone through the roof.

So there's a loss leader there that's making them wake up. But I think what people miss the most is that interaction with being treated as a customer, number one, and that interaction with someone who's you know being treated as a customer number one and that interaction with someone who's an agent of your company you know yeah and it's funny i don't know if you ever listened to bill burr but he had a great comedy special one time that talked about that he said

yeah i go in he goes i don't see anybody i check myself out i didn't realize it was my night to work he goes i would address differently yeah yeah i mean i've joked about how what what's next i gotta stock the damn shelves around here yeah exactly where's the peanut butter uh you're gonna have to pull it off the truck in the back oh damn it i mean i have to do that at walmart half the time i refuse to use a self-checkout just on principle you and me i'm glad to know there's more of us in the world we need to form a union tonight i'm an asshole about it uh i'm and so i i go i go find whoever's running around i go hey i want to check out like you you know a few things that you can check out the thing you know they give me that sort of attitude like no i want a cashier i want a bag i know the same way I'm paying for the things. I want the experience.

But, you know, in reality, you like dealing with a person, an agent. And I think that's really dumb when companies want to reach a point. You saw Amazon do that too, where they used to have that walk-in grocery and they closed them all, I guess. And I think people want to have experience where there isn't some human interaction anymore. Well, and people, I think think are looking for quality interactions. I just read the other day, I forget which one it was, but one of the big four started to require every one of their people to take a public speaking course so that they were more fluid, they were more conscious of the other people. It gives me hope that we're in a world where we can start to converse again but

not only just converse but make it a quality conversation where everybody takes something away from it not just uh one-sided you almost have to because so many people don't really have conversation anymore and they're just walking around their phone in their hand going hey what's going on uh jake you doing fine there well they're looking at their phone and and uh you know everybody knows how to text like it's going out of style but a lot of people i i'm i'm here's another place where i'm an asshole um i'll use uh facebook messengers to talk to my friends with a voice message and so i'll hey, how's it going? Because, you know, you and I come from probably the same world

where, you know, we used to call people up on the phone. Right, I remember that. Yeah, and so I miss that. I miss the human interaction. It's gotten to be so out of hand. And some people react to it really well. They're like, oh, hey, Chris, and they'll send me a message back. And I'm like, hey, I get to hear their voice.

There's some intimacy in my relationship. And while we might be on our side of the nation, it kind of feels like maybe we could be sitting having a coffee or something real. And then I've had some people, they get really buggered about it. They really feel violated. Yeah, you're aggressive for calling me. Yeah, what an asshole. How dare you make me listen to your one minute message?

I had somebody flip the fuck out and I had to unfriend them and they were a podcaster, which is really weird too. Aren't you just talking your trade? And, but they were so, and what was weird is they were my age. I like, I had to ask him, I'm like, how old are you? Are you a Gen Z person? Like generations make a difference. Yeah, you come from the age of where we used to call people and have answering machines and shit.

Yeah. I mean, you're the last person I would have thought that had a thing. And the attitude seems to come from, oh, my God, you're going to make me listen to your message. Oh, my God. Wow. You know, I mean, I'm your Facebook friend. to come from oh my god you're gonna make me listen to your message oh my god wow you know i mean i've i'm your facebook friend i see the thing you're jerking around on all day watching i don't know the bachelor or whatever the hell else show you're doing there and you know you probably spend like five hours a night on facebook but god forbid you should have one minute of an intimate conversation with somebody. I think it's a lost art, Chris.

It is. But you know what's funny about it? And what's funny about what you're doing, not really funny, but, you know, it's interesting and funny. It is actually funny. It used to be, because I used to be, I used to work for a company called car products. And when you do sales, you would, you would sell to these industrial factory, uh, mechanic shops and stuff. And so there, you always have to go to the buyer and the buyers hidden behind a team of, uh, you know, militant fricking secretaries who, who you, you know, you, you go in there with flowers, roses, uh, chocolates, you know, you, you, you're, you, you go in there with flowers, roses, uh, chocolates, you know, you,

you, you, you're, you're kissing everyone's butt. You're trying to do everything you can to get her to give you an appointment with that guy. Whose book is always full of appointments. And, uh, there's a whole, you know, room full of salesmen and, you know, and that one time you can finally get him on the phone with you. And, you know and he's got like three minutes and you're just trying to sail it, whatever you can do. Now it's different. Now you can easily get through to people and talk to them. They're just like, wait, you want to talk to me? You want to have a conversation?

Like, this is all the difference. And think about how our attitudes change about those conversations too, Chris. In an average sales organization, they say, I can close one in 100 people. So in order to get the business, I need to call 200 people to get two closes. If you think about it, that's nothing like reality. I read a study the other day that said your odds of finding, and here back to your dating thing, your odds of finding your perfect mate on any given day is one in 562. That explains my 35 years of being single. There you go. But we never think, oh, in order to find my soulmate, I need to date 562 people today. Actually, I do.

But in sales, we boiled sales down to odds. We boiled it down to a math equation. And it doesn't have to be that way. The art of conversation can up those odds. I think we just need to step back and take a look at how valuable that really is. Most definitely. So you have some different ways of unlocking the mind, decoding instant rapport, psychological tactics for flawless communication. I imagine we've covered some. Do you want to tease out any other ones?

Yeah. Let me just cover one that's really cool. And hats off to the social psychologists who did this experiment. But they didn't experiment in a New York City library, not the friendliest group of people. And they did it in a line to a photocopier, which makes them even less friendly. And what they did was they threw some people in the line as experiments saying, can I cut in and make a copy? Well, that just wasn't happening. But when they use the word, because I need to catch a bus or because I'm running late, they found that compliance went up at a staggering percentage. But here's the weird thing, Chris,

what they found was it didn't matter what came after the word because. They could say, I need to cut in front of you because I need to make copies. It was the word because that meant everything. So when a company is trying to sell a product or when somebody is trying to sell themselves, give the because. Our brains have been so programmed to find cause and effect that the word because can dramatically change the compliance of the person on the other end of the phone. So that's just one of a lot of different things you can use. But I find that fascinating as all get out that one word can make that big of a difference regardless of what comes after it. I'm going to use that on my

Tinder profile so I can get those numbers that you cited for dating to come down. I'm going to use that on my Tinder profile so I can get those numbers that you cited for dating to come down. I'm going to say, I need to find a relationship because I don't want to die alone. Well, this study shows you can just say, I want to find a relationship because I want to find a relationship and it would work just as well. Oh yeah. Yeah. I can just make up whatever I want.

Absolutely. I don't know. It's a hard thing. Do you want to be single and happy or married and miserable? I don't know. I don't know. It's a hard thing. Do you want to be single and happy or married and miserable? I don't know. It's a tough, it's a tough call. Uh,

that's a marriage show people. Uh, so, um, let me ask you this, uh, just, just being,

uh, comedic and interesting and engaging and, uh, I don't know, kind of having a personality help with any of this sort of blueprint that you have? Absolutely. And this was something we alluded to earlier, Chris, was when you make somebody feel good

by being friendly, by throwing in a compliment, by showing them they're making the right decisions, the brain goes through an interesting process. It goes into feel good mode. Well, the person that you're talking to, feeling good, they start to attribute that to you. It's a cause and effect and it's almost universal.

You never find yourself thinking, oh my God, I really need somebody to bring me up. So I'm going to go the lousiest person I know who never listens to me. We go to the person who we know is going to respond and is going to be nice and that we feel good just because we're in their presence talking to them so there's a lot more than just getting a sale there there's a matter of human chemistry that takes place that can have staggering potential yeah we're still we're still humans, man.

We're still, we still operate from a caveman sort of level, um, and interpersonal level and societal level where, uh, we're a social species. And I think, I think more now in this, you know, where we have these barriers between us with the phones and, you know, all this stuff where we can't talk to each other directly or call each other up directly. I think people are even more starved for that sort of interaction, like I mentioned the buyers earlier. And it's just so important.

I don't know, man. I spend a lot of time enjoying talking to people. I enjoy going to coffee with people and shooting shit with them. I really like it. Half the reason I do my podcast is, I guess, because I can't hang out with people and shooting shit with them. I really, I really like it. I have to reason to my podcast, I guess, because I can't hang out with people so much anymore, especially after COVID and,

and like, and like, and I smell bad too. So the nice thing about Zoom is it's, it doesn't have a smell of vision yet, but I suppose they're working on it. So let's, but let's unpack something you just said.

It's amazing to me that as a race, we didn't learn a lesson from COVID. You know, when we were all in our own houses and we weren't able to get that human interaction, things like that, everybody said, oh my God, I just want to get out. I want to interact. And yet here we are getting out and interacting again. And we haven't learned anything. We haven't tried to deepen our interactions.

We haven't tried to make them any more quality. And listen, I'm not trying to get all touchy feely about this. But there is, I read, I used to read a lot of comic books, I've got about 15,000 in my personal collection. And one of my favorite things that sticks out is the Joker says, you're just one bad day away from being me. We're just human. You never know what's going to tip you to the good or to the bad on any given day. And we all revert back to what's primal. And during COVID, I think we saw that. And our primal need is human connection.

There you go. It really is. I mean, we really are. There's so much bullshit that we pile on today about how advanced we are as a human species. And if you've seen us lately, we really are. But it all goes back to caveman stuff, you know, a very simple, simple operational standard we have. But falling back on what you were saying, too, there's that old axiom. And I forget the first part of it they will they they may not remember what you say but they will remember how you made them feel it's absolutely

true and part of that communication chris of making somebody feel good is the ability to tell a good story and get them to relate and i that's arguably one of our oldest talents. You look back at the caveman days, you look at the stories they told on walls and hieroglyphics where they told stories that we're still trying to decipher and it's just humans have had a need to storytell and relate as far back as we know and the irony to me is now we do calling scripts

where it couldn't be farther from a conversation or relating to someone because everything we're going to say is pre-programmed. Yeah, and it comes across pre-programmed too. Oh, no question. Because the person's looking at the script going, thank you, Bob, for your answer. I care about what you think.

Objection, response. Oh, I'm not supposed to read that part. Yeah, it's very true. You can hear it as soon as it happens. I was on with a large company. I won't say who they were, but I was buying a product from them and I was buying it from online and I was on chat and I could tell when they shifted me to an AI chatbot. It was a distinct difference in conversation. So I said to the chatbot, I said, where'd my sales guy go? And I used their name. And it's like, oh, he had to step away. It's like, he had to step away from a sale?

From revenue? Yeah, what? Oh, if that's what we're coming to, we're in trouble. Yeah, I hate those sales bots, especially on websites. It's like, I just want to talk to whom freaking being man, you know,

and it's worse when you don't, you haven't built a relationship with that company. You don't have any trust with them. And right away, they're just kicking you at a bot. My other favorite pet peeve is the people who use, what is it? Zen desk or whatever to do their customer service

i hate that the fact that you actually have the balls to write me a letter saying um thank you for your question about our services we'll get back to you in three to five days which means seven yeah um and it's not gonna be a good answer it's gonna be a form yeah it's gonna be some bullshit answer like did you check our forums to see if we give a shit? Because we don't. And then you're like, you know, I'm not going to do business. I'll go someplace else. I'll go someplace else to talk to me.

People just don't get it. So there you go. I ask my CEOs when I work with a company, I say, do me a favor. Call your customer service line. Tell me how it goes. Yeah. Ask for a call from your sales rep. Let them call you and you converse with them. Tell me how it goes. The number of people that come back to me and go, I had no idea is extremely large. And it's right. You don't. You don't. It's something I used to do in my business as a quality control thing. We had a huge telemarketing arm for a mortgage company,

other companies, but, um, we would, I would call in to the front desk and try and change my voice so that no one knew I was the boss. And, uh,

and then I would go through the sales process of like, you know, the transfers and stuff. Yep. And, um, there's this, I think there's one time we almost fired her,

fired the secretary cause she kept picking up and then I could hear her talking to somebody in the background. And I'm like, what are you doing? And then she would get on the line like two minutes later. Hi, can I help you? I'm just like, are you freaking kidding me? Yeah. And then, you know, sales processes and all sorts of BS. So let's talk about what you do on your website, your

consulting services and flush all that out. So you not only do the fractional thing with companies, but it looks like you might do individual coaching as well or group coaching. How does that work? I do. A lot of times a head of a company will come to me and say, you know, we're just, we're not having good town hall meetings. I'm not getting through as a company. Our culture isn't great. So I will coach leaders of companies, whether it's a CEO, CEO, COO, or I will coach salespeople who just feel as though they've hit a wall. And we will talk about how to break through, how to start things again at a point where it's an actual conversation where you're addressing concerns. And again, Chris, this is not rocket science. This isn't anything heavy.

As a matter of fact, I'm always amazed at how I'll listen to a salesperson get off a call and they'll be so rigid and so script focused. And then they'll turn and talk to me as a coach. And it's completely different. It's not even the same type of conversation dynamic. So that's a lot of the personal coaching that I do. I get fractional people or business owners that come on and say, I really, I can't sell myself, love my product, but I can't sell me. So I work with those people as well, just on how to sell yourself.

And the reality, Chris, is you don't need to sell yourself at all. You make yourself a person that can hold up a conversation and can legitimately address people concerned with your product. And you'll be amazed at how you convert to a salesperson yeah it's more about probably what you say or do than what you say you know people get a feel for but you know i i can tell jokes about people and i can and crack people and they know that i care and it comes through you know there's the famous insult comic i forget his name all the time uh but i was a huge fan and don rickles don rickles and don rickles could be you know he could seem a little mean if you didn't know who don rickles was yep um but you know he used to

always say people get a sense that i still care they get a sense that i i love them and try to make them laugh uh you know and he'll do self-effacing jokes as well and you know he he lets everybody know that uh you know he's just not picking on people. And people sense that, I think. They sense that you care, that you have their interests at heart. And if they don't, I think they sense that as well. I agree. I think we have a lot of instincts built in, whether you call it the reptilian brain or a hunch or a gut reaction. I think a lot of people have those

nowadays, but we don't have to interpret them the same way as we did 20 or 100 years ago. So a lot of times we don't know where to go with them and what to do with them. And a lot of it is just getting back in touch with who you are. And listen, I'm not saying I'm a life coach or that I'm holistic or I'm a psychologist. I'm more of a person that just helps you get your conversational dynamics back. I've helped some people who were couples who were just on the opposite end of the sofa start to get back together. But again, it's just changing the conversational dynamic. There is nothing complicated here. It's just a matter of doing it with consistency and with sincerity. And I teach a lot of methods on how to do that.

It's crazy to me sometimes at how simple a solution is when we're not the ones with a problem. I have a friend of mine who says sometimes when you're dropped into the jar, you can't read the label. And I think that's where a lot of us fall. You know, and, and really when it comes down to it,

we're just trying to be human again. Yeah. So you've got one hour consultations, 1.5 hour consultations. People can book a consultation or website. They can also hire you to come speak at their engagements and stuff like that. Flesh that out for us a little bit. Sure. So the consults, I always do a one hour free consult because

honestly, Chris, I'm not the best answer for everybody and I'm not the right fit for everybody. So I like to stay in my lane and I like to find out if we're a good fit first. So I'll do a one hour free consult. Obviously anybody in your show who can connect with me on LinkedIn or doing on my website. But the other thing I do is speaking engagements. And there's two things I do. The first is if they have content they've already developed and they just need somebody to deliver it in an effective way. I have a couple of clients right now. That's all I do for them. They develop content internally and then I go deliver it. And then there are other companies where they'll say, listen, we'd like you to develop the content too, and then come deliver it. Here's a topic we want to talk about. So I facilitate in two different

ways. I am often surprised at how many companies will call me and say, we've got the content and we've got a training team, but we need interaction. We need people to get involved. We want this to be something special. So they call me to deliver it. There you go. Teaching people to be human again. Who thought we had to do that? But in today's world, we do. It's funny. It's funny when you think how far we're, and the AI is just going to make it worse.

I said, I look forward to the day where somebody AIs me and then I don't know what to say. So I get AI to create a response. And before you know it, you've got chat GPT talking to Claude and back to chat GPT. It's going to be an interesting. Yeah. They're just going to have a little conversation there. Exactly.

You two talk. I'll be back. Let me know what. Missiles to kill the human race. I see what's going on. Exactly. That was in that movie. So there you go.

I love this content you have and you brilliantly put it forth and put it together so that it makes so much sense. And, you know, sales, it's kind of become a lost art. But the thing is, if you can do it and if you can do the things that you've talked about and you teach about, you're going to be like a unicorn in this world. And that's, you're going to make a lot of sales. I mean, that's what I think. I agree 100%. Yeah. You're going to stand out like a sore thumb.

When was the last time you said, I loved my salesperson? It's just not said very often. It depends on whether the escort agency called me or I called them. That was the best joke I could come up with. It's a dating callback show. We've had to mix Tinder and the thing all the time as well, but there you go. So I have no idea what any of that means.

Thank you very much for coming to the show, Jake. Give us your final pitch out to people. Tell us the dot coms. Where can people find you on the interwebs? Sure. I'm LinkedIn. I'm Jake Stahl, J-A-K-E-S-T-A-H-L. And my website is jakestahlconsulting.com. And I have a book coming out on the 210 rule coming out in May of next year. It's going to be the 210 rule, why cadence trumps content.

And it's going to talk about a lot of different ways to gain interactions everything from empathetic questions and statements to the use of silence uh to the use of flattery um all of it genuine mind you nothing synthetic or contrived uh but there's going to be a lot of techniques on how to interact with people if you're at a loss and how to elicit information uh without really asking a question so there you go i'm hoping it'll be a good book i'm sure it will i mean i i i read your bio that's probably one of the best well-written bios with uh chewy big words and and uh intelligentsia as they say they don't say that it stays crunchy in milk too it's crunchy in milk there you go maybe that should be the title don't say that. It stays crunchy in milk, too. It's crunchy in milk. There you go.

Maybe that should be the title of your new book, How to Be Crunchy in Milk. That would be catchy. That sounds like an onlyfans. Anyway, thanks for coming on the show, Jake. Thanks for having me, Chris. Thank you. And thanks so much for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com, 4ChestChristmas, LinkedIn.com, 4ChestChristmas.

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We're just old and whatever. So there you go. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe, and we'll see you guys next time.