The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Jason DeBono, VP of NuView Trust Company on Self-Directed IRA’s

Episode Date: July 8, 2020

Jason DeBono, VP of NuView Trust Company on Self-Directed IRA's Nuviewtrust.com

Hi folks, Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Hey, we're coming here with another great podcast. We certainly appreciate you guys tuning in. Be sure to give us a like, subscribe to us on YouTube. If you haven't gone to YouTube yet, they have these really cool things over there. Video. They have videos. Now, most of you who subscribe to Chris Voss Show on all the different channels on iTunes,

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Go to YouTube, go to thecvpn.com. The Chris Voss Podcast Network is subscribed to all nine podcasts. There's nine of them. Holy crap. They just make your brain so big that when you emerge from your COVID cocoon, you'll need a bigger cranium. Anyway, we always have the best guests here on the Chris Voss Show. And today I'm excited to have on Jason Debono. Jason is with NewView Trust. He's a vice president, so he's very smart, and as always, we have him. Jason graduated from the University of Central Florida. He's since acquired 15 years of business experience in the self-directed IRA industry. He's also served as both director of Business Development and Director of Operations for NewView Trust Company. It's a self-directed custodian of $1.4 billion of assets under

custody. Now in his role as Corporate Vice President, Jason oversees the day-to-day activities of the company. He's heavily recruited to speak on podcasts. He's on one now and at national events as a subject matter expert in tax advantage investing through retirement accounts. And he's provided continuing education to CPAs, attorneys, and real estate professionals, and I guess speaker hundreds of investment events and conferences throughout the United States. Welcome to the show. How are you doing? Hey, Chris. Good to be here. Thanks for having me. Good to have you on there, Jason. And give us some plugs for NuView. People will look that up on the interwebs. NuView is a unique company, but our basic business premise is to allow people to use

retirement money. And instead of buying stocks and bonds or investing into Wall Street, we give you the ability to invest into Main Street. So you can buy individual pieces of real estate, issue private loans, own private companies. Anything non-publicly traded can be done through us. And what dot com are you guys at? Newviewtrust.com. Newview with a U. N-U-V-I-U-W trust.com. Newviewtrust.com. So Jason, give us a origin story. How'd you get in this business? What got you excited about working in this area? Well, you know, it boils down, Chris, to dad told me you can't do it,

which as you can imagine, 15 years ago, I was wrapping up college at UCF and I was looking for a real job. I was working in retail. And I said, you know, I got to go out and find something that is more in the lines of business and finance. And so I went to an internship at UCF, went, you know, chatted with a bunch of companies, was fortunate to get a good handful of interviews. And I remember getting to NewView and looking on their website thinking,

what the heck does this company do? You know, IRAs and real estate. And keep in mind that I had interviewed with SeaWorld and Callaway Golf and, you know, companies that I was well aware of their business or product. And so I picked up the phone and called dad and said, you know, hey, dad, I know you know what an IRA is. I know you've owned some rental real estate. How does this work? And, you know, after a while of getting my dad on the internet, which was its own challenge, you know, he finally said, yeah, it looks like they deal with real estate and IRAs. But, you know, I asked my broker about this and you can't do it. So needless to say, dad says you can't do it. I went into the interview pretty pumped up.

And it was it was a lot more education. Glenn Mather, our founder and current CEO, he said, you know, do you know what we do as a company? And I, you know, here I was, you know, went behind the years, college kid, nervous as hell. And I just said, my dad said, you can't do this. So, you know, I somehow managed to turn my interview into an educational session. But truth be told, I left that interview. I called my dad and, you know, gave him some insight into why his broker was telling me he couldn't do it, the reality of how it worked. And it was my dad's reaction that caused me to ultimately take the job. And here we are 15 years later and nearly a billion and a half dollars of assets under management, uh, and still loving what I do and enjoying the message I get to spread

every day. There you go. You got the last laugh on that one. Yeah, for sure. It's always good when you can one up your old man. Cause, uh, you know, it's always that tit for tat with the dads. Oh yeah. But that's cool. I get to toss in. I'm sure he's proud of you. So now I'm seeing the picture behind you on the, on the placard self-directed IRAs. What is a self-directed IRA for those of us laymen in the consumer area? Sure. Self-directed IRA is really two things. Number one, it's the self and self direction means you get to pick your own investments, right? That's the basic premise of a self-directed account. Now you could go to Schwab or Fidelity or TD Ameritrade and they'll give you a self-directed IRA. You can open up your account, it's self-directed, you can log on and you can buy

whatever stocks, bonds, mutual funds they offer. And for us, that's only half the battle, right? So we give you the ability to not just self-direct, but we give you the ability to self-direct into investments beyond stocks and bonds. So our clients are picking their own investments, but more importantly, they're picking from Main Street investments. So they're not buying stocks and bonds through us. If they want to buy stocks and bonds, they don't need us. They can go to the Schwab's and Fidelity's of the world. People come to us because they want to buy a property. You know, they've got retirement money and they say, I don't want to own a stock. I mean, look at the market, you know, over the last eight weeks. I mean, who in their right mind can make sense out of it? You know, yet 90% of

retirement money sits in it. You know, which seems like quite a disservice to, especially to those that have the wherewithal to go find their own investments in the real estate or non-public space. That's awesome. So they can invest in real estate. Uh, real estate of course is always, uh, usually a great investment. It has its ups and downs, but largely it holds its investment over time. They're certainly not making more real estate. So there's a limited quality product. Even in times of recession, the real estate prices bounce back and then usually go up from there. I mean, San Francisco is seeing just crazy real estate stuff just goes up and down. So people can have more choice basically and more control over what they want to invest in. You got it. Yep.

That's pretty awesome. I mean, one of the problems with me, I spend most of my time investing in donuts like Daylight Donuts and Krispy Kreme. Most of my portfolio is Krispy Kreme donuts. I'm not talking the stock of Krispy Kreme company. I'm actually talking real donuts. No, I'm just kidding. You got to be careful with that. That's a dangerous way to literally eat up all your returns. Eat up your profits. There you go. But I never run out of donuts. So there's that. But so you guys manage this huge portfolio. What's the best? What's if I'm a consumer out there in the marketplace and I'm like, okay, so what would be some ways that I can work with new view? Uh, what are some, am I a client? Am I

someone that would be a good prospect for interacting and working with you guys? Uh, what sort of criteria would I be looking at for myself to be wanting to get on the phone with you guys? So for most of our clients, their investments that they make with us mirror in some capacity investments they've made outside their retirement money. So whatever money you, you know, individual money you have, non IRA, you have full control over. So most people own a lot of the investments they come to us for things like property or mortgage notes, private companies, they're already engaging in those types of investments to begin with so a typical customer of new view is someone that maybe owns and I'll use my dad as a

prime example you know my dad's probably owned eight or ten pieces of property over the years they've all been investments of various types some raw land some rentals right but you, he has since acquired three properties in his account with us. So he's taken his IRA and he said, well, why aren't I going to duplicate the efforts if I go out and buy a rental property and I know the numbers and it makes me 10 or 12% per year, right? Why wouldn't I do that instead of owning stocks and bonds? And so, you know, a typical client liquidates their stocks and bonds or a portion of them moves their IRA from Schwab to new view, and then directs us to go put that money back to work into something like a piece of property or,

or anything non-publicly traded. And I mean, we, we have, we have over 15,000 unique investments on our platform that our clients have bought and currently hold. So it's, we see a little bit of everything. This sounds like a really smart thing to do right now because, you know, I was trained to be a stockbroker and I've been a day trader and I see what's coming down the line, especially after October 1 when a lot of the PPE stuff expires. I mean, I think it was, I'm not going to get the airline right. It's not United. It might have been United, but it's United or America. It's one of the airlines just announced today and gave a federal warning. I forget what they term it. There's a federal warning they give within 60 days that there might be layoffs.

And it's about 26,000 or 36,000 people. They're anticipating a laying off of that one company. The stock market is going to definitely be having a hard time over the next year to two years. And I think this is brilliant because moving those investments into something that's more solid like real estate or other things is going to be a lot smarter than having the whims of, you know, what's going to go on with the crazies and stuff. You know, the election's coming up. Who knows who's going to win? Who knows it doesn't? That's going to have an effect on the stock market.

You know, you just never effect on the stock market. You know, you just never know with the stock market sometime in any given day, right? Well, and you're not kidding. I mean, I'll tell you how good of a stock investor I am. You know, people ask me, well, what do you do with your money? And I tell them, you know, the things I've done that are great are non-stocks, the things I've done that I've swung and missed embarrassingly bad. If you look at any chart over the last 90 days or 120 days, and you find the little dip somewhere around the middle of March, that's when I sold the three stocks that I owned. And those three stocks, honest to God, were Apple, Amazon, and Netflix. All three have since gone on to not just recover, but reach record highs. And,

you know, I tell that story again, a little bit embarrassed, but it goes back to, you know, I've been in the investment world 15 years. You know, I've done so many things and learned vicariously through so many customers. You would think that, man, I've got enough knowledge behind me to make good, smart choices. And at the end of the day, when it comes to stocks, who in the world would have thought, you know, when the world came crashing down, that somehow miraculously the stock market has recovered? You know, we're facing COVID head on, no different than we were in March. You know, businesses to some degree, with few exceptions. You know, you have some outliers that have become more successful and benefited from all this, but how does the average lay investor know that? And here I am as a, you know, moderately smart person. I've got education and

I've got 15 years experience and I've got thousands of clients that give me all this great insight. And at the end of the day, nobody has a clue. And if you think that people have a clue, it doesn't take but 30 seconds on the Yahoo Finance page to realize that nobody, they're like the people that are in financial reporting are like weathermen, right? They tell you what they think will happen. Then the next day, they get to tell you what actually happened and suggest that they knew it all along. And, you know, if they don't have a clue what's causing the market to go up and go down, how the heck does the average investor, right? Yep. And, and, and real estate, we've had a lot of real estate investment advisors on the Chris Foss show over the years. People that have, you know, they do their own real estate investing. They, they own different properties and stuff like that. And it's a, it's a safer place to be than sometimes the stock market, depending upon what's going on, because, you know, it's, it's, it might not, you know, it may not go up 100% a day, but you know, you're not going to lose a hundred percent a day. I mean, it's, it's a really solid investment with what you can do with real estate and some of the other

things is real estate. Primarily the most people the most type of product that people put into your guys' portfolios or is there other things? So it's nearly split a third, a third and a third. And then there's a little small sliver there. I think we're dating back to math class. I think you can only have three thirds, but there's about a small 10% or so sliver of kind of the miscellaneous, but the three big items are real estate, and that's all types of real estate, single family, multifamily, commercial, raw land. We have clients that own boat slips, clients that own burial plots. If it can be deeded, you can own it. Clients that own easement property, meaning you can't actually get a car to it, but you can erect billboards on it because it's along the highway and that can be an income for you to stream.

Citrus groves, you know, crop, farm, ag, hunting leases, again, you name it. If it's deeded, you can do it. So that's about a third. A third are private loans. There's a huge world of private lending out there. Some of it's real estate related. Some of it is consumer debt related, business loans, bridge financing. You know, again, and you know, and I personally wrote a loan to a friend of mine that had some credit card debt,

you know, made some bad choices, but had a good job and was trying to rebuild his credit and ended up with, you know, about $15,000 worth of high interest debt. And so I was able to step in, consolidate it all, write one loan for 15 grand, get a nice healthy return on my end, 8%, 10%. And it was about half of what he was paying to the credit card company. So I'm getting a nice steady return and he's getting a discount compared to what he was paying. It's a win-win. And so deals like that happen pretty frequently. So loans is the second third. And then the third third, if that is not a dumb statement, is private company investing. So every stock that's public, Uber, Lyft, to name a few of the most recent um you know ipo type stocks um but before they went public

they still raise money and there's hundreds and thousands and millions of private capital raises that happen every single day for private companies and our clients participate in a lot of those we have a lot of silicon valley people all right it's in tech because that's what the chris voss show was originally built on was tech. If they own stock as an employee in a company, but they can't action on it, it's still in that period where they can't buy or sell it really, but they're holding it. Is that something they can put in there?

It's possible. So you can't take something you already own personally and put it in your IRA. Because of the tax benefits of an IRA. The IRS doesn't want people dumping all the winners in their IRA and, and avoiding taxation. But, um, you know, to your question, if, yeah, if they work somewhere and the company is private and the company is going to offer private, you know, a sale of some shares of stock,

let's just say 10 bucks a share, uh, their IRA could step in and buy a thousand shares and they can put in 10 grand and throw the stock in their retirement account. And, you know, if that stock goes public and they make 20 times their money, it's all tax free in their IRA. That might be some brilliant ways for some companies to, you know, fund some incentive to employees, you know, have an offer and go through the IRA. So this is pretty cool. You guys, uh,

self-directed custodian with over $1.4 billion in assets. Um, that's pretty darn awesome. And so you guys, uh, uh, you guys are based in Florida. Is that correct? Well, we've got two offices. So our trust, our, our trust company and trust charter is in South Dakota. It's just a very good state for trust operations. It's the number one state for trust operations in the U.S. But, yeah, so we have a trust office in South Dakota. But our day-to-day client interaction and activity is done through our administrative office here in Florida. Let me ask a dumb question.

What if you have investments outside of the U S can those be put in one of your IRAs or. Yeah, in most cases they can. Again, if you own it personally today, um, you know, it probably can't. Um, but if it's something that, that, uh, that is an investment that you're going to be making, uh, then it most certainly is something that you can do inside an IRA. Cool. Real estate, mortgage and notes, cryptocurrency. I'm looking over your website here at nuvietrust.com. You can even get a free guide. It looks like you can download there. Can I put my cryptocurrency in there then? You sure can. You can own cryptocurrency and precious metals cryptocurrency

all inside the account as well so even gold and stuff yeah so you can do any uh any precious metal that's a purity level so uh anything numismatic you know a a coin from the titanic can't be held uh but a golden eagle certainly could okay what about a like aluminum i have a lot of mount ducans kick around here no i'm just kidding i don't know where you store we certainly don't take the empty ones chris the empty ones oh it's just the phones okay all right well uh i could i should there were you as a time in my life i probably could have invested in i own so much of it uh cryptocurrency um yeah a lot of our audience is into cryptocurrency we have the cryptocurrency podcast of course um and i know a lot of my friends are investors in cryptocurrency

and this might be a really brilliant way for them to uh do their investments uh because they're they're into everything like i've got friends that you know they're into like i i've just i i can barely keep track what bitcoin Bitcoin, Litecoin, and, you know, Dogecoin is and a few of the other ones. But they're, like, into everything. They're, like, deep into it, and they monitor every day, and they're buying and selling. So this might be a really brilliant way for them to get those. Now, the beauty of an IRA, for people that are the layman,

give me the rundown on why that's important, how that saves you money, tax purposes, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, you hit it, Chris. people that are the layman, give me the rundown on why that's important, how that saves you money, tax purposes, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, you hit it, Chris. I mean, IRAs are, you know, so powerful from a tax standpoint. And so, you know, one of the things that we talk about is, you know, building wealth is so many people think that building wealth is about making good investments. You know, that's why the wealthy get wealthy is they make good investments. And I'll tell you, having done this the last 15 years, it couldn't be farther from the truth. The wealthy get wealthy for two reasons. Number one, they have money to invest. And number two, they make sure that it's in the best vehicle before making the investment. And then the latter part, the least important part is the investments they make are good, right? They have access to a lot better stuff than we get to put our paws on. But what

they do is they make sure that the vehicles are right. And so what an IRA is very simple is it's a tool that you make, it's basically a tool that you put money away in, right? It's a vehicle, if you will, an account type. And the deal you make with the IRS is you will not take that money out until you're 59 and a half. So you're going to earmark it for retirement. And the IRS agrees if you do that to not tax you, right, year over year. And they'll even give you the chance to pay the tax up front in a Roth or pay the tax when you take it out. So the deal you're making is basically, I'll give it up for a longer period of time, but I don't have to pay tax. And if it's okay to, you know, take an extra minute on this

question, I can illustrate how powerful that is in dollars, because I think if people realized it, you know, so here's the difference between wealthy people and I'll say poor people, I don't mean any, you know, anything disrespectful by that, but rich people and not rich people. I don't mean anything disrespectful by that, but rich people and not rich people. So most people go out and they say, all right, I'm going to take a dollar, right? And let's assume you're going to double it every year for 20 years, right? So a dollar becomes $2, $2 becomes $4, $4 becomes $8. And you do that down the road 20 years. The average person that doesn't understand how tax benefits work will just do it in whatever vehicle it is, which is their personal money. And they'll just pay the tax bill along the way and

think they're doing great. And they'll turn that dollar at the end of 20 years, assuming they're at a 25% tax rate, they will turn that dollar into 78,000 bucks. Now at face value, it sounds like, damn, that's pretty darn good, Chris, right? You're a good investor. You're smart. You just took a buck and over 20 years, you made it worth 78 grand. You know, heck, that's pretty darn awesome. What they don't realize is that if they took the same dollar, made the same investments that doubled every year, but instead of putting it in their personal name, they put it into a tax advantage vehicle, like an IRA that didn't pay that 25% tax every year. At the end of 20 years, instead of having

78,000 bucks, they'll have $1,040,000. Wow. That's quite a bit of difference. Yeah. So when you let that sink in, right, same investor, same amount of money, same investment, but just by simply putting it into a tax advantage vehicle first, you end up with over a million bucks. And so, you know, when people wonder why the wealthy stay wealthy, it's because they've got tax advisors that study this stuff every day. And the average person, unless they're fortunate enough to be on a show and listening to your podcast and hear stuff like this, they'll go on through life thinking that turning a buck into $78,000 is fantastic. And it is in its own regard, but turning a buck into a million dollars for the same work and effort is where people really want

to be and should be. And that's just the difference between understanding the tax system and not. That's awesome. That's really important. And you've got to make your money work smart. I mean, you work hard for your money, make your money work smart. Did I just make a t-shirt? I noticed here you also work with financial professionals, brokers and dealers as giving them an opportunity to work with you guys at doing stuff with you guys? Yeah. So we, we work, we've got two divisions. So, you know, we talk a lot about what individuals can do and what a self-directed account is. But we also have a division that, that services financial advisor, broker dealer, RAA, registered investment advisory type firms. These are all licensed

financial advisors to some regard. And we give them a, really, we provide back office custody for alternative products they've vetted out. So a lot of times people go to kind of your wire house investment advisors. So they go to Merrill Lynch or they go to Edward Jones. And what people don't realize is those groups are really just packaging up stocks, bonds, and mutual funds and providing them to you. And I'm not suggesting they don't earn their value and aren't worthwhile. There's a lot of really good advisors that do. If I'd have had an advisor, I probably wouldn't have sold my stocks like an idiot, right? They would have been there to tell me not to do it. Well, hindsight's always 20-20. my stocks like an idiot, right? They would have been there to tell me not to do it. But there's a big area of independent financial advisors. So registered investment advisors or independent broker dealer firms that are not tied to a wire house. They're completely independent.

So they can offer you both a financial product that's publicly traded, right? Just like a clearing house type advisor could, but they also tend to have anywhere from three to 10 or 12 products that are really pre-packaged alternative products so that they can offer you. So they may say, Chris, here's a, you know, you're in Idaho, here's a real estate fund that owns, you know, 12 apartment complexes in Idaho, you know, and so you don't have to go find the deal. You don't have to vet it out, but you can look and say, yeah, I know those geographic areas. I know the towns that these properties exist in. I know the communities that they're in. I may even drive by

a few of them every day. And so you may opt to put your money into that deal so that you're exposed to real estate, but you're not exposed to it like a publicly traded REIT, right? Small exposure, a lot more control and understanding. And financial advisors provide those types of opportunities, some regional, some national to their clients. And so we serve as a backend custodial solution to offer that. So if your advisor put that in front of you and you said, yeah, I want to go invest into it with my IRA, you need someone like Nuvi to provide the custody for that. And that's the service we provide for advisors. That sounds awesome, Sauce. You definitely want to diversify. Now I noticed here on you guys' website, you guys are actually holding a two-day virtual

real estate investors conference on July 16th through the 17th? Yeah. So next Thursday and Friday, like everyone else, we're adjusting and adapting to the digital age. And we've always done a good amount of webinar and digitally produced content. But this is the second time that we're putting together an asset specific. I think we've got six different speakers that are coming in to talk about real estate in all different capacities and to help educate people from novices that are just trying to understand how it works to experts that may know a lot about real estate, but maybe want to hear some new and unique strategies. But yeah, that's coming up next Thursday and Friday and looking forward to that. We'll have six different speakers and then we'll have Q&A with each one of them

in a panel form so you can ask your questions directly to them. There you go, guys. You can go to nuvietrust.com. That's N-U-V-I-E-W trust.com. And geez, two-day virtual real estate conference. You can get to know these guys better, get to know what they do, get involved with them,

listen to their speakers, learn some better ways to diversify and new world investment options that you can take and do there. This is pretty darn awesome. You know, like I say, people work so hard for their money. You've got to make your money work smart and avoiding tax issues and, you know, being able to save some tax money and then use that money that you would normally spend in taxes to expand your investments and earn interest on them is super important. It'll make all the difference for you in the world. So anything more we should know about who you guys are and what you do? Well, you know, we could sit here and talk for hours and hours on the subject,

but for the sake and sanity of everybody listening, I don't know there's a whole lot of additional nuggets to drop unless you think there's some additional investments that your listeners may be interested in a tad bit more in. But otherwise, no, I think we've covered all the bases. All right. I like the cryptocurrency part of it i know real estate if i was in the market right now i'd probably move back into real estate or different safe safer investments um i was really you know i saw what happened in 2008 and that at least diversify and looks like you guys have sort of forms and financial calculators on your website where people can go there and get the information they're going to work call you guys up talk to

a representative and get to know you guys better and see how you guys can help them right of course yeah there you go diversity is key you're you're absolutely right there you go you can even call them toll free 1-877-259-3256. So there you go. And you can get a free e-guide. So that's always good. Free. I like free stuff. I'm going to download it just to get it.

So go to nuvietrust.com. That's N-U-V-I-E-W trust.com. And it sounds like you guys are doing some wonderful things over there. Yeah, we're working hard at it and continuing to educate people on what their real choice looks like. And, you know, we just want clients to make informed decisions. If you know that real estate's an option and you prefer stocks and bonds, then it's an informed decision. And if that's where you think your money is best spent, put it to work where you think. I just hate to see the masses that are out there stuck in stocks, bonds, mutual funds without a

clue. You know, they're just crossing their fingers and hoping and praying, you know, that the market miraculously goes up. And boy, that's a scary way to kind of think about getting to retirement. And it's a scary way to think about your retirement dollars, which are working, you know, really from a tax standpoint, the best for you. You want to make sure that the investments they're in are working equally as good for them. Definitely. I think a lot of my folks who are in cryptocurrency, this would be a brilliant thing. I'm going to refer to a bunch of them because I know they're just, I'm pretty sure they're all just trading. So they're not getting any tax benefits. Yeah, they're probably getting the opposite, right? I mean, they're trading short term and paying a premium in taxes that 25 i mean

the benefit to to having a good year is you make more money the drawback to having a good year is you put yourself in a higher tax bracket so you know when you do stuff in an ira it's the only place that you can win the investment game which is generate lots of return uh and not lose the tax game you know which is you don't drive your tax rate up as a result. So yeah, we got a lot of clients using IRAs for cryptocurrency and there's a lot of opportunity there. We don't get involved in the physical crypto or the storage. We help you kind of set up a structure that gives you the full trading control and you can kind of go out and set up your own accounts and wallets and manage that all yourself. So it's a pretty cool opportunity and certainly something that's been grown over

the years. That's for sure. I think that's, I think that would be brilliant for people in the cryptocurrency business, because I know there's, they're always, they're always gaming the system, you know, Bitcoin will go up and then it'll go down. They're always trying to buy on the different curves and do different things. And a lot of people don't realize when you take those gains that they're taxable. And you've got to think, well, okay, I made $10,000 in that stock. But then you're like, oh, wait, there's taxes got to come out of that. So it's definitely something that impacts it there. So thanks, Jason, for being on the show and sharing this data with us.

If everyone gets a chance, give them a call up. Check out that seminar webinar they're taking and having. And, of course, you can go to their website at newviewtrust.com. I'm getting old where the small print just doesn't work for me anymore. I have to blow everything up really huge. Newviewtrust.com. That's N-U-V-I-E-W-trust.com. Check them out.

Thanks to my audience for tuning in. We certainly appreciate you guys being here. Go to, of course, the CBPN or for the show to chrisvosspodcastnetwork.com. Tell them to go there. Sign up for all nine of the podcasts. Holy crap, there's so many. And those of you who've been listening to this on the audio version go to our video version at youtube.com or go to the

post on the chris voss show you can see it there thanks to my nuts for tuning in and we'll see you guys next time