The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – JFK’s Ghost: Kennedy, Sorensen and the Making of Profiles in Courage by David R. Stokes

Episode Date: June 8, 2021

JFK's Ghost: Kennedy, Sorensen and the Making of Profiles in Courage by David R. Stokes "I'd rather win a Pulitzer Prize than be President of the United States," John F. Kennedy confided to author Margaret Coit shortly after his election to the Senate in 1953. Kennedy got his wish four years later, when his book Profiles in Courage was awarded the Pulitzer for biography--even though it wasn't among the finalists for the prize. The role of Kennedy's speechwriter Ted Sorensen in drafting and crafting the main chapters in the book was never acknowledged by Kennedy's inner circle. And Kennedy was hyper-sensitive until his dying day about rumors that cast doubt on his authorship of Profiles. Sorensen was in many ways Kennedy's "alter ego," a man described as Kennedy's "intellectual blood-bank." But Jackie Kennedy found the relationship between her husband and his speechwriter to be "creepy." Still, Jack Kennedy the writer is an often overlooked part of the Kennedy narrative that helped propel his political career. And when Kennedy's authorship of Profiles and the legitimacy of his Pulitzer Prize were challenged on Mike Wallace's national television show by the popular columnist Drew Pearson, JFK's political future was imperiled. If the rumors surrounding the authorship of Profiles in Courage had been confirmed as true prior to his ascendance to the Presidency, there might have been no brief and shining moment in America now remembered as Camelot. About David R. Stokes David R. Stokes is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author. His book, THE SHOOTING SALVATIONIST, appeared twice on the Wall Street Journal Bestseller list in 2011. This story has been republished (2019) titled, APPARENT DANGER. Screenplays based on two of his novels, CAMELOT'S COUSIN and JACK & DICK, are currently being represented for production in Hollywood. Retired FBI Agent and Bestselling author, Bob Hamer, says, "David Stokes combines his meticulous research with a writing style which makes you feel as though you are that fly-on-the-wall witnessing history as it unfolds." David grew up in the Detroit, Michigan area and has been an ordained minister for more than 40 years. Now retired from pastoral ministry, he writes full-time. David has been married to his wife, Karen, since 1976, and they have been blessed with three daughters--all now grown and with wonderful children of their own. There are, in fact, seven grandchildren, a fact verified by hundreds--maybe thousands--of pictures, as well as an ever-growing collection of toys and gadgets joyously cluttering their home. Visit David's website: http://www.davidrstokes.com

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Bye, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Hey, we're coming to you with another great podcast.

We certainly appreciate you guys tuning in. Be sure to see the video version of this. Go to youtube.com forward slash chrisoss, hit the bell notification button over there. Also, go see us on goodreads.com, Fortress Chris Voss. See everything we're reading and reviewing there as well. Go over to all our groups on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, all over the place. There's a million different places you can go to get access to the Chris Voss Show and the groups and everything that we're talking about as well. Today, we have an amazing author on the show, David R. Stokes.

He's the author of the newest book to come out, June 1st, 2021, John F. Kennedy's, or I'll just say it as it's titled, JFK's Ghost, Kennedy, Sorenson, and the Making of Profiles in Courage. This should be a pretty interesting book. And this episode is brought to you by our sponsor, ifi-audio.com. And their Micro-iDSD Signature is a top-of-the-range desktop transportable DAC and headphone app that will supercharge your headphones. It has two Brown-Burr DAC chips in it and will decode high-res audio and MQA files. We're using it in the studio right now. I've loved my experience with it so far. It just makes everything sound so much more richer and better and takes things to the next level.

IFI Audio is an award-winning audio tech company with one aim in mind, to improve your music enjoyment of quality sound eradicate noise distortion and hiss from your listening experience check out their new incredible lineup of dax and audio enhancement devices at ifi-audio.com he is a wall street journal best-selling author his book the shootingists, appeared twice on the Wall Street Journal bestseller list in 2011. The story has been republished entitled Apparent Anger, and he's also done screenplays based on two of his novels, Camelot's Cousins and Jack and Dick, and they're currently being represented for production in Hollywood.

David, welcome to the show. It's wonderful to have you on. I've been looking forward to it, Chris. Thanks. Thank you. And so are we. Let's talk about your great new book that's out. Congratulations for getting it out. Give us your plugs so that people can find you on the interwebs. Okay. So my website's davidrstokes.com. That's my handle at Twitter, David R. Stokes. Got to use that middle initial R, David R. Stokes. Got to use that middle initial R, David R. Stokes. And Facebook author, the same. And you mentioned Goodreads earlier. Right now, they're doing a giveaway for the book so they can enter this thing. I don't know how much

time is left on it, but it's a Goodreads giveaway. But davidrstokes.com is the main place to go. There you go, guys. Go check them out. Order the book up. We're fine. Books are sold. And David, tell us what motivation you want to write this book. Well, I retired from the ministry. I was a pastor for 40 years. And when I did that, I didn't want to just sit around. So I've been a writer for a number of years, published a number of books while I was a pastor. And so I fell into some ghostwriting jobs. People asked me to help them write books. And it made me really interested in ghostwriting. And so I began to research ghostwriting as I was doing it, and came up with the idea to write a book like

the old Seinfeld bit with Kramer writing a coffee table book about coffee tables. I decided to write a book about a ghostwriter. One of the most famous ghostwriting stories, certainly in the modern era, is the story of Profiles in Courage, John F. Kennedy's Pulitzer Prize winning book, that it's been rumored for years that he really didn't write the book himself. So I thought I would delve into that. I dove deep and got about 600 and some footnotes, endnotes in this book to document everything. And I think I've written, hopefully, the definitive account of this entire story. Wow, this is really interesting. It says here on Amazon, I'd rather win a Pulitzer Prize than be President of the United States, quoted by John F. Kennedy, which I think is some of your writing about. That's interesting. So give us an overarching view of the book. A lot of people don't know that John F. Kennedy wasn't really set up for politics when he was growing up.

He was pretty sickly. He was a voracious reader. And by all accounts, he wanted to become a writer. He wrote, in fact, his senior thesis at Harvard. He turned it into a best-selling book called While England Slept, with the help from a few friends. In fact, that story is a window into his later book, Profiles in Courage. He was a journalist after the war. He covered the United Nations founding for the Hearst Syndicate,

and he traveled wide and far and wide as a newspaper man. But, of course, it was the death of his older brother, who was really the heir apparent. He was the one who was going to follow in the father's footsteps, Joseph Kennedy's footsteps, and become the politician. He was the natural. John F. Kennedy wasn't a natural. He had personal charm, could light up any room, but not on the public stage. But he morphed into this. And in 1953, after he'd been elected to the Senate, one of his first hires as a senator was to hire a staffer, a young aide by the name of Theodore Sorensen, Ted Sorensen. And they became pretty close, alter egos in a sense. And when you think of John F. Kennedy now

and looking back at many opinions about him, but we think of his eloquence and his capacity to inspire some of his great speeches, that was Ted Sorensen, Theodore Sorensen, his speechwriter, who gave him his political voice and really matured him in that way. So I deal with that. And then, of course, they decided a book about courage came out. It was, I think, a part of a marketing strategy to paint Kennedy, who was very young, aspirant for the White House. Remember, he would be following the oldest man at that time, remember, to serve as president. So he had to do some things to give him some gravitas and some credibility and becoming a published author and getting that Pulitzer Prize. Boy, that was a really important part of the

puzzle. And so he did that, and the rest, as they say, is history. Wow. So in your studies and research, do you think he would have become president without the leaping board of this book? It's interesting. That was one piece of the puzzle. And I think it's been underrated as a piece of the puzzle. And winning the Pulitzer was extremely important. It made him a national figure more than anything else at the time in 1956 and 1957-58 in the build-up to the 1960 campaign. I think he probably would have captured the nomination. I remember it was a razor-thin victory over Nixon in 1960, 100,000 votes, popular votes. And so it's an open question as to whether he would, but I will tell you one of the things I deal with in the book is that if it ever came out or was

proven that he didn't really write the book, but yet took the Pulitzer Prize, in other words, as his own work, that scandal might have submarine everything, more than any other scandal. And he had health issues, and he had personal issues of philandering and so forth. That's pretty well documented. But the real, the third leg on that stool is this Pulitzer Prize. And if that would have been proven that he didn't really write the book, then that would have submarine him, I think. And that would have made all the difference in the world. Do you think with your writing, are people going to come away with the total proof that he didn't write the book or it was ghostwritten? Or is there still ambiguity?

I don't know that there's really any ambiguity. And I think that the issue had been pretty much resolved even before I picked up my pen to write this. But what I do is I really drill deep in the oral histories. I used a lot of the stuff at the Kennedy Library itself, correspondence files, going back with correspondence between Sorensen and Kennedy and other people, the editor of the book at the time. Yeah, I think it's the definitive account.

This is a story that's been in various – Chris Wallace, for instance, in one of his books about Kennedy, pretty much says that John F. Kennedy didn't really write Profiles in Courage. But they say that, and then they move on. It's never been treated as a one-book kind of treatment where you fill in all the blanks, and that's what I've tried to do. Unless a person is really just a person who is in complete denial reading my book or a propagandist that's reading my book. I think they come away with a pretty clear picture of it. John F. Kennedy, for all of his gifts and abilities, wasn't the person who actually wrote the entire book.

He was more of a line editor for the book. Wow. Editor in chief. Editor in chief. entire book. He was more of a line editor for the book. Wow. Editor-in-chief. Chief. This is really interesting. This is amazing. It just basically was written by Ted Sorensen then. Yeah. It's documented in the book that he wrote the entire first draft of the book and most of the second draft. And then Kennedy got involved at various times. And the same thing was true with Kennedy's thesis that became a book in 1940, in 1940s, at the outbreak of World War II, that became While England Slept, that Kennedy was never unwilling to take help from people.

This is a man who grew up having people do things for him. Now think about that. Obviously, he was privileged. He never knew the Kennedys, the kids never knew what the great depression was. They never experienced it because they were insulated from that while the rest of the world was suffering. And this is not a criticism. This is a statement of fact. And so he grew up privileged and always had an entourage of people doing things for him so he could delegate and be pretty hands-off, and yet things would, then he'd take the credit later on for it. Yeah, that's a given. So what are the similar surprises or different standout things that you think readers are going to find in the book that they're going to be like, oh my

gosh? One of the surprising things to me in research, and it's a subtext of the book, is dealing with Kennedy's health, particularly as a young man. I really go into that because that was part of what made him such a reader and a person who is much more involved with intellectual ideas than maybe his brothers were. He spent a lot of time in bed. He almost died several times, even when he was a senator and some surgeries during the actual writing or the creation of Profiles in Courage. So I think I learned a lot more about his health. I learned a lot more about the family dynamics and some of the ways that he tried to separate

himself from his very driven father, the rivalry between his brother, but also that whole capacity to have other people step up and do things for him that I think he just saw as the normal way to live. And that was somewhat surprising. Now, when you talk about the rivalry between his brother, was that Bobby? No, that was his older brother, Joe Kennedy Jr. When you study the dynamics of the Kennedy family, the oldest brother was Joe Kennedy Jr., who was killed on a mission during the Second World War, not long after John F. Kennedy had survived the PT-109 incident, which I tell the

story of that in the book, of course, which has been recounted various times. It all plays into the concept of courage that was a fascination of Kennedy's. So when his brother died, the brother was always going to be the guy. The dad wanted to be president. He had planned in the 30s to run in 1940, assuming that Roosevelt wasn't going to run for president himself. But he shot himself in the foot in a number of ways I deal with in the book. So the oldest son, he was going to be the guy. And he was an outgoing, charismatic, dynamic, natural politician. John F. Kennedy, or Jack as he was known to, dynamic, natural politician. John F. Kennedy, or Jack as he was known to his friends, was not.

But when the brother died, it was almost like, okay, now you're yet. He became the heir apparent, and the father was a very driven man, and in a lot of ways wanted to fulfill his own ambitions through his sons. Yeah. It's an interesting just whole dynamic that they had as a family and how they built everything and so should the can you retract a pulitzer prize oh yeah i don't think they can and i certainly i certainly would not i certainly would not i would be somewhat horrified if part and parcel of my book was that that was taken away i think that's water under the bridge it's a done deal maybe the rules were a bit different in the 1950s than they are now in the

day and age that we have now. People, how do I say it? They got away with a lot more back then. The fix was in. It was a manipulative process, and the Kennedy entourage was pretty good at that. That may sound like a catty thing to say, but it was politics as usual pretty much back then. They just played the game by the rules they knew. At the same time, it wouldn't fly today. It would probably be, if he were to get the Pulitzer Prize today

and it would come out six months later, but he hadn't written the book, they'd retract it. But I doubt 65 years, it was 65 years ago, the book came out 64 years ago, he got the Pulitzer, I doubt that's going to be counted. And as I said, I'd be somewhat horrified. And I want to apologize to the family didn't mean for that to happen. I wouldn't mind if I won a Pulitzer Prize, but I don't want the one taken away. There you go. So what do you hope readers going going to come away with, with the conclusions or one conclusion or conclusions? Or is it just really a good data point or experience or information to go, hey, here's kind of how this happened. Here's my agenda.

I wanted to tell the story. I like stories. I think that's basically what history is. Barbara Tuchman, the great late historian who wrote The Guns of August, March of Folly, other books. They asked her one time how to write history, and she said, write stories. And so I've written a story. It's a narrative nonfiction. It's short chapters.

They're not long chapters, 1,200, 1,500 words each. It's a page turner. That's what people have told me. And I tell the story of this from the very beginning when he was accused of not writing the book on national television, on Mike Wallace's television show on a Saturday night in December of 1957. And I hope the telling of the story is what grabbed people. And I lay the facts out. I research it. Everything that needs to be documented is documented. They can check it out. And I think you come away with a conclusion that, hey, it looks like Ted Sorensen really wrote this book, and he took all the credit. It'd be the kind of book today where

someone would say, John F. Kennedy with Ted Sorensen on the cover. But it wasn't that way. And I've done some ghostwriting, and I've signed NDAs. So there are books that are out there that my fingerprints are all over, but I can't really tell people that I was involved. But that was the understanding I went into, and then I was compensated for it. And by the way, so was Ted Sorensen. Well, he better have been, darn it. Yeah, he liberally and generously compensated. Did Ted Sorensen, forgive me for a misplacement of history, did he end up in the John F. Kennedy administration? Yeah, he sure did.

In fact, he was the person who wrote, that's not what your country can do for you, but you can do for your country. He was his primary speechwriter, but he was even larger than a speechwriter. All presidents have had them. He became an aide in many ways, a confidant to President Kennedy, part of that inner circle of the White House administration at the time.

Yes. And he wrote a massive biography of Kennedy after John F. Kennedy died. It was simply called Kennedy. And it was an award-winning book, but he was with Kennedy until the end and survived. He actually helped Lyndon Johnson write his first speech when he had to speak before a joint session of Congress just days after Kennedy was killed. So yeah, he was in the White House. Ask her or not what you can do for your country. Right, exactly.

Can you imagine anybody getting elected, anything with that kind of ethic? Hey, don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you're going to do. You could be an elected dog catcher in Des Moines, Iowa, with that kind of approach. It definitely was a different time in America. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Oh, man.

Now, you talk about in the book how he was hypersensitive about rumors and casting down on his authorship of it, or Jonathan Kennedy was. What was the take on that? Yeah, obviously, he had for so long said that he wrote the book and dug his heels in and doubled down. Everybody around him had verified that. Even Sorensen himself, he actually signed a legal affidavit to the effect, which when you look in hindsight, was certainly perjury.

So he was sensitive about it to the extent that a lot of people that will defend it say he was seen writing on yellow legal pageant when he had back surgery. He was writing upside down and people witnessed him do that. They don't realize that a lot of that was just staged. It was designed. And so there are enough papers at the Kennedy Library written in his hand, different fragments of this story that makes it look like he did. But anybody who really drills deep, and there have been many researchers that I'm indebted to who have done that spade

work long before I came along, that just it doesn't pass the smell test. Note to self, if you ever hire a ghostwriter, make sure you go back and rewrite the script on the yellow page. Right, exactly. Well, there's a great story, and I deal with the story in the book. There's a great story in 1961, just before Kennedy was inaugurated. He's on his little plane called the Caroline. This is before he had Air Force One. And there's a famous journalist who is there on the plane with him. Kennedy had a close relationship. And Kennedy took a yellow piece of paper, a pad out, and he already had his inaugural speech, the Ask Not

What Your Country, in front of him, typewritten, all done. This is just a couple days before the inauguration. And he starts actually recreating it in his own hand. And he makes the statement to somebody that copies of FDR as a first inaugural in his own hand went for $100,000. And he tucked it into a drawer. And so, yeah, there was some stagecraft there. Money- some stagecraft there. Money-making stagecraft. Yeah, and I don't know that he was in it for the money.

I don't think he needed the money. But he was making the point, and he showed this to a journalist, and this journalist was convinced that he was seeing an original draft. In fact, that draft is still at the Kennedy Library today. Oh, wow. And yet it was created. It was a handwritten copy of something he'd already had typewritten. So what does the Kennedy family or the Kennedy Library think about this book? I don't know, and I haven't had.

I did a lot of research there, and I'm indebted to them because there are tremendous files that are open to the public there. Even in a time of COVID, once it shut down, I was still able to get some of this stuff. And I deal with, in the back, there are numerous oral histories that were made possible by the Kennedy Library. And of course, correspondence files, Sorensen's files, Kennedy's files, his father's files, other authors, other historians, and so forth. So it's all there. It's all hiding in plain sight. But I think out of,

some people may think, what's the point? Here it is all these years after the guy died, let him rest in peace. And I think that's fine. But from the historical standpoint, it is important not just to bury things and cover things up. I don't, I'm an admirer of John. When I was a kid, he was my hero. I probably agree with a lot of his politics back then, wish some people would do the same things right now. But at the same time, you got to take this wherever it goes. He deceived the people about a number of things, all politicians do. He deceived them about his health, for instance, to dying that he had Addison disease when he did to his dying day.

So yeah, he pulled a fast one on the people and he got away with it. There is nothing but punitive that needs to happen, except people need to realize that he was a man with the capacity to expire. And he did. He went to the moon because he had that vision. But he was also a flawed man and not to put him on a pedestal, you know, that way. And I think that's true. It's important to understand how these, how men like these are made or created or with a cumulative effort of different people like Ted Sorensen and others are vaulted to these positions of power and understanding them and what they're about and how they got there.

And like you say, the whole history. And I think we'll be writing books about JFK until the end of time. Well, that's any man. And it was a brief, a brief period of time, but a lot of it was spun. The whole Camelot thing didn't even come along until about two weeks after he died. And it was contrived by Jackie Kennedy and Theodore White. And she really wanted that to be how her husband was remembered. Oh, wow.

He loved the Broadway play. They used to listen to the record of the soundtrack of it. But it never be forgot that once there was a spot that for one brief and shining moment was known as Camelot. And Ted, Theodore White, who had written the making of The President in 1960, he filed for Life magazine and told that story and the legend was born. Wow. And now it's synonymous with Kennedy's administration. Yeah. It's amazing, man. It's amazing how our history is manipulated and how things are done. This is early PR, really, marketing. They were experts in it and people are still today experts in it. You don't get experts in it you don't get anywhere

in in public life without a measure of it you've got to admire that capacity and they played the game by them by the rules they just played it better than most is that uh is that shot of you said mike wallace calling john out on on on the thing is that online is on the youtube i i give the transcript in the book it is is on Mike Wallace's show. Actually, the guy that did it was probably one of the most famous journalists of the day, long forgotten now. His name was Drew Pearson. And Drew Pearson was a guest on that show. And this is in 1957, December of 57.

Listen to this. This is after Eisenhower had a couple of heart attacks and a stroke. And so they were talking about the president's health. And you'd think what I'm about to tell you would be the thing that we remember from that show. Drew Pearson said that he predicted within one year, this is 57, Eisenhower was going to resign and Richard Nixon would become the president of the United States because he was the VP. You'd think that would be the Twitter, the tweeted moment, right? But then they went on to talk about 1960 and they began to talk about, you know, how Nixon was the front runner for the Republic. This senator from Massachusetts was already the front runner for the Democrats. And Drew Pearson at that point on national television said that he's had a

great PR buildup. And I'm paraphrasing now. He's the only guy I know who's gotten a Pulitzer Prize for a book that was ghostwritten for him. And Mike Wallace was taken back, said, you know this for sure? He says, I sure do. And by all accounts, Kennedy and his wife, Jackie, were watching. That was Saturday night, 10 o'clock show. We're watching. And by Monday morning, it was like circle the wagons. You talk about a crisis and they got their defense machine into full defensive mode. So I deal with that in the book. I don't want to give it all away, but that's how the book starts. Some more teasers. Any other teasers you want to tease out before we go? No, I think that you've pretty much covered it. I just think it's a fascinating story. And

the concept of courage, first of all, and historians will bear this out, even though Kennedy wrote about political courage, he wrote it right after he had failed to take a stand against Senator Joseph McCarthy. And he's the only Democrat that didn't go on the record voting for the censure of McCarthy in the Senate. And so he writes this book about courage to establish himself as a man of courage. You're hard pressed to find anything in the political career of John F. Kennedy, even as president, where he exhibited the kind of courage he writes about with the people in Profiles in Courage, which is designed. These are men who did what they thought was the right thing, even though it was politically unpopular with their own party. That was the thesis of the book.

And he may not have had political courage, but he had physical courage. He survived sickness and illness and surgeries. This was a tough guy. And then if you know the whole account of PT 109, when he basically, he literally dragged a man to shore for a couple of miles who couldn't swim by putting a rope around him and using his teeth to swim him to shore. This is a matter of tremendous courage. And so I think, I don't want people to think that I'm bashing the guy. I pretty much prove he took a Pulitzer Prize he shouldn't have taken. He'll have to live with that. We'll have to live with that.

Bill Clinton said this about Nixon when Nixon died. He spoke at Nixon's funeral. He says, let the time for judging Nixon on anything other than his full life be behind us. And I think with Kennedy, you have to take the flaws, but you take the good with the bad. And I think he did have the capacity to inspire us. And we can't help but see his life looking back through the prism of his assassination. And because of the violence of that moment, your heart, it tempers everything. Yeah, but look at how he died and the sacrifice he made. But I hope I've told the story in a compelling way that page after page turns, people will find this book to be interesting. It really would have. The thing I always thought

about, even being as a kid, we talked in the green room about how one of the first books I read was 1000 Days. My mom had it. And I think I still have it saved somewhere. It's like an original copy and or printing or whatever. But it was really an interesting book to read. And I always wondered what would it have been like if he hadn't been assassinated or survived the assassination attempt if that was possible. But what would the rest of the next years of his administration been like if he won again? Those are the what ifs. He was in somewhat But what would the rest of the next years of his administration have been like? Well, you know, if he won again. Those are the what ifs. He was in somewhat political trouble in the fall of 1963.

Part of his reason to go to Texas was to mend fences out there with the Texas party that was falling apart. But there were some potential scandals that were ready to confront him. It's not at all a foregone conclusion that he would have been able to win re-election in 1964. And the other question that overshadows it all is, would we have gotten into Vietnam as deep? Johnson kept taking us deeper and deeper. Kennedy, Eisenhower started it, but Kennedy had us there, and Johnson then doubled down and doubled down again and exponentially there. So those are the questions that we'll never know. I think they're fascinating what-ifs.

But Ted Kennedy, when Robert Kennedy died, I don't know if you remember the speech that he gave at the St. Patrick's Cathedral, the eulogy. And he talked about, let us not make him larger in death than he was in life. But it's impossible to do that when someone's martyred. And they did that with Bobby Kennedy and to a certain extent, Jack Kennedy. But I hope people enjoy the book. I hope I've told the story in a compelling way. I think you'll come away, I think, convinced whether you want to be or not. There you go. There you go. It's been wonderful to have you on, David. Give us your plugs so

that people can find you on the internet. Okay. My website's davidrstokes.com. On Twitter, I'm at David R. Stokes on Facebook. Of course, the book, JFK's Ghost, Kennedy, Sorenson and the Making of Profiles in Courage is available wherever books are sold, wherever you order books. And if you buy it and read it, give me a review wherever you buy it. Appreciate that very much. And Chris, thanks so much for having me on. And thank you for coming on, David. We certainly are honored. Appreciate it. No, great. Thank you.

There you go. All right. To my audience, take and check out the book, JFK's Ghost, Kennedy, Sorenson, and the Making of Profiles in Courage. Just barely came off the book of the printing press there. June 1st, 2021. You can order it. Be the first one on your block to say you read it or your book club. Go to youtube.com forward slash chrisfa.

See all the wonderful videos we have on there. Go to goodreads.com forward slash chrisfa. See everything we're reading and reviewing. You can go to all the groups we have on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter. There's just everything, Instagram, all that good stuff. And check us out. Thanks to everyone for being here. Stay safe, and we'll see you guys.