The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – JJ Brun, “The Retired Spy” on Mastering the Art of Interpersonal Relationships

Episode Date: September 30, 2023

JJ Brun, "The Retired Spy" on Mastering the Art of Interpersonal Relationships Theretiredspy.com As a seasoned veteran of the Intelligence Branch of the Canadian Armed Forces, I served with distinction as an contact handler on the ground in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Years in the discrete world of human intelligence and counter human intelligence have driven my desire to understand human behavior’s intricacies and pass on the complex notion of interpersonal communication. Although retired from active duty, I realized much of what I learned could be utilized in the civilian world. Based on the Four Temperament (DISC) Model of Human Behaviour to better understand any maximize human dynamics, my exclusive training programs provide a comprehensive analysis of communication techniques, empowering individuals to enhance authentic relationships that promote trust, innovation, and productivity.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the Chris Voss Show, folks. My family and friends, the great family of the Chris Voss Show podcast,

the podcast that loves you but doesn't judge you, at least not as harshly as your mother-in-law, because you didn't get your wife the, you forgot her anniversary, and she'll never let you live it down. That's a good one. Just came up with. So, guys, as always, we certainly appreciate the five-star review. You should give us over there on iTunes.

I just love you guys so much. One of the recent posts was what I love about this podcast is the host. Chris is able to bring out the best out of the guest to provide optimal benefit to the listener. This is the reason his podcast is rated so highly. It is. And there's no better than chris voss and nothing screams my egotistical narcissism to be set off than writing uh reviews like that so thank

you very much for whoever wrote that and i'll just put that up on my wall and frame it in fact maybe we should just put reviews behind us and frame them so anyway uh if you guys haven't gotten a chance please support the show please support the show. Please support the show. Go to goodreads.com, 4chesschrisfoss, youtube.com, 4chesschrisfoss, linkedin.com, 4chesschrisfoss. Make sure you subscribe to that LinkedIn newsletter. That thing grows by like

50 to 100 people a day, and we've been doing it for a couple years now, I think. It's crazy. It's insane the way it grows, and I'm just like, holy crap, who keeps subscribing this thing i didn't know there's many users on linkedin but i guess there are uh anyway guys uh also uh was it tiktok chris foss one we're gonna be talking spycraft today and spycraft on how you can use the tech tools and techniques of spies or spooks sometimes as they're called in the business uh and how you can learn that to

analyze people to understand people better to evaluate people and uh also uh use that for business and how you can do business deals negotiations uh how to get maybe more out of your teammates because if they don't do what you want you have the black helicarters uh pick them up and ship them off to Poland in some dungeon thing, and then you strap on the battery packs and the jumper cables. Anyway, because we've all want to do that to Bob in the office because he

can't work the paper copy right, but that's another story. We'll see if we can get our current guests to do that. Today, we have an amazing gentleman on the show, J.J. Brune. I'm going to try and make a stab at that he is known and basically trademarked as the retired spy and you're going to learn a lot about his stuff he's operative 130 or 431 we'll find out what that means as a seasoned veteran

of the intelligence branch of the canadian Forces, he served with distinction as a contract handler on the ground in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He spent years in the discrete world of the human intelligence and counter-human intelligence, having driven his desire to understand humans' behavior, intricacies, and pass on the complex notion of interpersonal communication. He's retired from active duty now, and he realized that much of what he learned could be utilized in the civilian world based on the four temperament disc model of human behavior to better understand any maximize human dynamics and his exclusive training programs provide a comprehensive analyst of communication techniques, empowering individuals to enhance authentic relationships, promote trust, innovation, and productivity, or sends

them to the shadow realm. Welcome to the show, JJ. How are you? Excellent. Thank you. There you go. It's excellent to have you. I'm losing my voice.

Go ahead and give me your full name. I think we set up in your.coms, wherever people can find you on the interwebs. So full name is it's French. So the full name is Jean-Jacques-Joseph Brun. And I go by JJ. When I was working overseas, they couldn't pronounce my name. So then became John Jack.

Hey, John Jack. And they would, I don't think they were bilingual. I was working at the safe house one day and then there was a British colleague that came into the ops room and he needed something on my desk. And he just said, hi, JJ.

And I connected the dots. John Jacques. Okay. JJ in turn. And I got branded. There you go. The story is if you don't brand yourself, somebody else will.

So for me, it worked out because it it made it easier for everybody to remember my name. Also, when I messed up overseas, Canada did not know who this JJ was because that was not my official name

on paper. It worked out. I'm assuming that's your real name. Did we get your.com? I think we did. Did we? Yeah, it's as simple as theretiredspy.com. Everything is there, and it's in, hey, both official Canadian language,

French and in English. There you go. So give me a $30,000 overview. Give us a summation of what you do and how you do it for your clients and the work that you're doing now. Bottom line for us is equipping people for works of service. So 20 years in the military, I specialize in the field of human intelligence. And I had to go to a war zone to learn how to build relationships. But I was going to be evaluated by my ability to

build relationships. And from there, I just saw the value of having a model of reference that quite often, whether it's in your business or in your personal life, if you do not have a model of reference, you will often find yourself at a disadvantage. So I got interested in temperaments, personalities, people's character, people's preferences. And from there, I was able to discover mine so that I can see others and then how to flex and adapt and then how to apply it with everybody else within an organization. So in the civilian side of things, as in, I said, you know what,

after 20 years, it was time for me to pull the pin. But now I do more work for Canadian government, whether it's the federal, provincial or the municipalities outside than when I was in uniform. And it's all about providing them the resources for them to utilize a model of reference when interacting with people. So at the level that I'm at, I train their trainers. So as opposed to having me on site, I will go and train their cadre so that they start doing their own internal training inside their organization. So from law enforcement to the Canadian revenue agency, to the Canada school of public service,

I train their trainers and then for them to apply the four temperament model often referred to as just a disc model into their specific areas of expertise or requirements that they have. There you go. Canadian. Is Justin Trudeau as good looking, as ridiculously good looking as he seems in person as he seems on TV? He is definitely taller.

I've, one time I had, I bidded on a lunch at the parliament. So we're going to meet a senator. We're going to have lunch. And as he was not the prime minister at the time, so as we were waiting to go and meet the senator, Justin Trudeau just passed by. And he is one tall gentleman. Really?

Yeah, he doesn't look it on TV, but I think he's like 6'2", very thin. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely like't look it on TV, but I think he's like 6'2", very thin. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely like a double look. Whoa. I didn't think he was that tall. Yeah. He's taller than me, so I'm 6. So he got a double look from me.

I said, what? Yeah. He's much bigger in person than he looks on TV. There you go. So give us a story of yourself. How did you grow up? What was your hero's journey? What got you into the spy business or wanting to get into the spy business, et cetera, et

cetera? Well, for me, the military was an exit strategy. So I was born and raised in a small village, entrepreneurial background so my father you know managed a gas station a sawmill and a chip harvester where you know you would cut the trees down and turn it into wood chips and then sell it at the sawmill so the whole village lived off lumber lumber was sort of like the industry and at a very young age we just that's what we learned as in the entrepreneurial. But dad always professed, get yourself a good, safe federal job. And so he always planted that seed because he would leave at 6 or 7 o'clock in the morning and come back at 7 o'clock, 8 o'clock at night.

Wow. I mean, he didn't want that because my dad said, son, you've never been in business until you had a payroll. You have to pay somebody else first before you pay yourself. That's true. And he was struggling. And then he had big dreams. He wanted to accomplish a lot of things because he came out of college to help his dad run the business. And he never got an opportunity to finish his college and his university so um so he got stuck in that area and um i started at a very young age working

at the gas station my brother at a very young age working at the sawmill um and at one point he wanted us to go to university and I was wired to go to university. And, but I only had $5 a day for meals back then. It was like, it was in the eighties, mid eighties. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, the ramen days. And just, it was just tough. And my dad didn't have the money to pay for the tuition and everything.

But one day I arrived at home and I had a nice Laurentian University brodered sweatshirt because I was a shot putter for the university. And so the pride, you know, it wasn't the leather jacket, but a nice embroidered university sweatshirt. And my dad looked at that and said, where did you get that? He says, well, I bought it. Where did you buy that? At the university.

Who paid for that? And I knew well, I bought it. Where did you buy that? At the university. Who paid for that? I knew where we were going. I said, well, I did. Where did you get your money? I worked a summer. Where did you work this summer? At the garage. Who owns the garage?

You do. So who paid for that? And it's just that he was on, there's so much financial pressure. Like my dad had visited the hospital on two or three occasions with ulcers because when the sawmill went on strike, the bank was still calling for the payments. You're too young. You don't know this.

But for me, it's okay, check mark. And two weeks after that, I found myself in basic training and joined the military. So the military for me was an exit strategy. I was tired of being told what to do, so I joined the military. And that did not make any sense. And then after three days, you know, people yelling at you and then you get shaved. And it's just a different culture because I had no formal training in any type of the cadets or the reserves or anything like that.

And I just thought those people are crazy. And I called back home and I was talking to my mom and say, you know, mom, I'll make peace with that. I'll get a mentor, a tutor. I'm not going to lose my first year. I want to come back. My dad was listening on the second line oh and he said you've made your bed son and he hung up the phone whoa yeah so at the age of 19 best best thing ever now back then it was like crap. There's no guarantee you're going to pass bootcamp.

You know, they were 40 and they only need 20 of us. So look on the left, look on your right. One of you is not going to be here at the end. wow. And for me, it's like a failing was not an option.

I absolutely had to pass that training. So fast forward, a very successful uh career because my first uh session was uh with the combat arms so that's the french regiment would be the royal 22nd regiment so the royal 22nd regiment the vandu's often it would be referred to as the vandu's and uh what takes you eight years to accomplish, I did it in less than four years. Blessing and a curse because you're the new type of soldier. You're bilingual.

You're computer literate. You've got a good physique. So you're the new generation. But the old guard doesn't like you because you haven't suffered like they've suffered. So after a while, I'm tired of this internal fighting and i decided you know what i'm going to switch career switch lane and that's what got me interested in the intelligence branch uh applied got recommended and then moved and again a rapid progression within that industry. So I was able to do two things. I started within the non-commissioned officer, and then I finished as a staff officer.

So I've done the blue collar and the white collar. So a total of 20 years in the military, 15. Yeah, 15 years was really in uniform and then, or the non-commissioned, and then the last five as a staff officer specializing in the field of human intelligence. And that's how I got interested in that whole area. And back then in the military, my claim to fame is being the first one selected for the role of a contact handler, contact handler back then, uh,

was sent into a hostile environment. So for me, my timeline was Bosnia, the war in Bosnia, where a contact handler is sent to a hostile environment where he or she has to cultivate sources, build relationships by design, determine their intentions and modify their behaviors without the use of any

Jedi mind tricks. Uh, basically get them to be an informant bait on, determine their intentions and modify their behaviors without the use of any Jedi mind tricks. Basically get them to be an informant, get them to share what they've seen and what they've observed on the field. And at the end, I had a hundred eyeballs working on our behalf all across so that then we could advise our commanding officer what was happening on the terrain so that they can inform and make an informed decision as to where to put the resources uh in bosnia at that time so being the first

canadian in a multi-national uh we had anywhere from five to seven different nationalities wow english was the working language now i speak three languages in europe quite often they'll speak five if not more english will be their fifth or their sixth language uh so it was quite interesting in regards to did you understand what i meant for you to understand even a commanding officer uh i'm not going to mention his name but he had one of these thick British accent. And he had this town hall meeting where he got all the contact handlers. Like this talk about a very good target of all the operatives were all in one area. We could have gotten taken out right there.

And he does his presentation, cast out his vision for the tour, what's going to happen. But at the end, he finishes with his big British accent. I know you think you understand what I just said, but I'm not really sure. But what you understand is what I meant for you to understand, Lotties. Do you understand? And I was looking at the left

and then the right, and I'm like, wow, that's going to be a long six months. Was that Sean Connery? It was. Well, anyone from the uk they're just going to crucify me because it was a bad imitation of it but at the end did you understand what i meant for you to understand and communication is so simple it's just not easy yeah that you have to realize that when communication breaks down blame the process not the person they may not have understood what you're trying to communicate to them and that's the whole area of learning to say the same thing in a different way of decoding one's preferred communication style uh so that you're able to be able to receive your offer versus resist your offer in building

those relationships and getting them to share their secrets. And being a handler is a dangerous business, right? I mean, right? You can be exposed or, you know, you're not in their gulag. Chris, it's different today. Like I have two operational tours. I have a peacekeeping in Cyprus underneath my belt, and I have peacemaking in Bosnia.

From that transition, we left Bosnia to go to Afghanistan. So the role of a contact handler in Afghanistan is completely different because you need even more resources. You need cover teams to go with you when you're moving. So it's quite different because of the environment's change. And as the environment changes, you also have to adapt the role of a contact handler. So I had it pretty easy or safe compared to the teams in in afghanistan because that terrain was more aggressive uh more labor intensive uh it's just rugged terrain uh the danger was much much higher

in afghanistan that it was was manageable in bosnia where we lived. We had a safe house, but then again, it wasn't that safe. Because it's a villa and it's not even fenced in. And you've got all these military vehicles, green targets, and all these people dressed in green telling people, here are the targets. So we were not allowed to be out of uniform. So it was part of the Dayton Agreement. Like your weapon has to be, you can't have a concealed weapon on you. You have to show your weapon. So your pistol or your long rifle, you're dressed in green, you have a role. And it was different.

I could go out two-man team. Sometimes we needed two vehicles. So a four-man team to go out when it was different. I could go out two-man team. Sometimes we needed two vehicles, so a four-man team to go out when it was hostile. But you were able to get around with a two-man team to the meets, to the location that you needed to, like when we had to connect with that, the self-declared, well, we branded him as a self-declared mayor uh of most are so most are why where i played so if you know where sarajevo is just have to go south and there's a place called mostar translated that means bridges bridge and that river then the red river had like four or five bridges uh across it uh very strategic town uh because you get access to the ocean if you if you can control that city you can then have access to dubrovnik all the way down there on the coast so it's uh

we're working with the the serbs the croats and the muslims the main three ethnicities that were there and you have to build relationships with the serbs the croats and the muslims and. And it's different culturally. Definitely. However, everybody wants to talk all the time. You just have to find their hot button. Ah. Yeah. How do you get them to talk?

It's the art of listening. For me, what really saved me is that I learned the 10 most effective feel-good ice-breaking questions. I was sold on the process. Yeah, that if you were to, if you could memorize these 10 most effective feel-good ice-breaking questions, you will always, always be able to carry a conversation with anyone, anywhere, anytime.

As soon as I heard about that, I was like, give me the questions. I'm not a people person. I'm very task-oriented. I've got that. I'm more dominant, direct, demanding in everything that I do, cautious, calculating, conscientious. Yes. But I'm going to be evaluated by my ability to build relationships with people. I'm like, that would be a great business if it wasn't for the people.

Well, there you go. So let's talk about how this translates into what you do now and utilize it to teach others some of the tradecraft or spycraft sort of techniques and tools. You do different things. There's something you have called the DISC, and I guess you're speaking now and you're teaching now and you've got some different materials people can sign up for on your website. Talk about what the DISC thing is. You have some stuff on here for DISC assessments, certification, training events, things you do about DISC. So it's a model. I'm a big advocate. I don't give a rip which one you choose to use.

Just use one. Because they will make a difference in business or in your personal life because you have a model of reference. I chose that one because it was the easiest one to understand, easiest one to learn, easiest one to teach others. So it's based on Marsden. It's the four temperament model of human behavior. One model is not better than the other. They're just different models.

Just find one that works for you. There's over 100 different models out there to better understand the tendencies or better understand people enneagram strength finder the neo the mmpi bank code there's just so many out there myers briggs a lot of people understand myers briggs 360 degrees pick one master it put in the time and the effort and all. So I've accumulated over 30,000 hours in the four temperament model of human behavior, studying, teaching, and certifying people within that tool. So everything that I do has a behavioral-based approach. So if I'm working with a coach, I'm going to get them accredited and certified in utilizing that tool, and now they can do coaching as a behavioral-based coaching approach. Or you're going to do some

onboarding within your staff you want to hire. Okay, well, let's do role assessments to find the temperament styles that you're looking for so that you can market based to the temperament style that you're looking for. So then when you hire, now you can have a behavioral-based onboarding training program so that you retain them longer because you know 90 days i think 30 of you hires after 90 days are looking for an exit strategy so by having a behavioral based approach to onboarding to marketing to presenting your products quite often people put a lot of information in the written format great that's one-third general population two-thirds of your audience are more people oriented

based on the research therefore you need both the written format and you need the video of you reading the written format it's a different type of industry it's a different type of error so uh for me when i learned about the 10 most effective feel-good ice-breaking question, guess what? Now I have it on my website. You know, off you go. You can use it. And it's amazing how it actually works. The first question is, how did you ever get interested in the widget business?

So you really have to be curious when you're asking that question. So when I was handed my first case in Bosnia, the gentleman was branded as a self-declared mayor of Mostar. So he had that persona. And like, how am I going to get that persona to like me so well I know the mechanics as in I went to spy school in the UK to be a contact handler spent a month there and then I deployed uh I'm like okay so uh we're supposed to say uh good morning and so as then they appreciate the effort of being able to communicate in their language

and then from there you have to work with an interpreter but the interpreter is not here the interpreter is on the sides but you still have to keep your eye on the contact on the person of interest and the interpreter at the end will disappear because

you're just keeping your eye with them and then so we're doing the exchange uh so my first question to him was i'm just curious see those three words by the way chris i'm just curious as soon as you say that to someone their subconscious mind stays open all the distraction of maybe people on the phone or whatnot goes away i'm just curious oh what are you curious about there you go first question how did you ever get interested in politics i just replaced the word widget how did you ever i'm just curious how did you ever get interested in politics now the research says that if you ask that question in the right time the right moment or the right person they'll talk for 10 to 15 minutes non-stop wow he did not follow that course

because he talked for 30 to 40 minutes non-stop he kept on going and going and going and i'm just and he's providing me a lot of clues and cues for me to read to read his preferred communication style so the model comes in play here here's the two p's to decoding one's preferred communication style i like simplifying things for application so when i'm interacting with someone regardless of their culture regardless of where they're coming from they all have a preference we all have a preference And science shows that a child's preference is already set at the age of four to five. Are you more outgoing or are you more reserved?

As in, do you prefer more a fast pace or a slower pace? We have a preference. We can be 51% one side, 49% the other. It doesn't matter, but we do have a preference. So as he's communicating, I'm looking at the pace perspective. Is he talking to me rapidly, fast, or slowly, conservatively? Is he loud, or is he soft-spoken? Where is he on that scale? That's the pace perspective. And then from the pace perspective, then you start looking at the priority perspective. Is he using more task-oriented words or is he using more feeling-oriented words?

An example would be if I was to ask you, Chris, so what do you feel we should do after this presentation? Well, you know, if you're from that people side, you would respond, well, I feel, but if you're not, it's hard to respond to that. I was just saying, well, what do you think we should do? Well, if you're not from that quadrant, it's like, well, I don't know. Now, if you say, well, so what do you think or feel we should do? What do you feel or think we should do? Thinking things through, feeling things through. They will respond, well, I think, ding, ding, ding, ding.

I need to go more task with this individual i feel ding ding ding ding they would prefer more feeling so it gives you aware the other they're giving you all the clues and cues of their preferred communication style you cannot not communicate and by having a model of reference in your repertoire there's a French word of the day you activate this little piece of the brain and on before and behind your left ear you know your RAS your reticular activating system whatever you're looking for is looking for you so if you're looking to decode discern their preferred communication style just sort of observing the pace

perspective and then the priority perspective. And then from there, you'll find that they'll fit into four main area for four personas. So if they're a little bit more outgoing, right, in their ways and very task oriented, well, that persona will prefer you to communicate in a firm matter. So I'm going to give you the four legal F words. The legal F words. In a firm matter. Just speak it out. That's very refreshing when you speak your mind.

They speak in a firm matter. Others, they may be outgoing, but they're the life of the party. Guess what? They will want you to communicate in a fun matter. You know, smile a little bit. Tell yourself. Others, and when they're more reserved, and let's say reserved on the people side, well, that quadrant, you know smile a little bit right tell yourself others and when they're more reserved and let's say reserved on the people side well that quadrant you know they would prefer for you

to communicate in a friendly matter so check your tone and be friendly and it's absolutely and stick out and then if you're still reserved yet you have a lot of questions right you're just curious you got a lot of questions well they will want you to communicate in a factual matter when connecting with people matters so by discerning one's preferred communication style know before you show for key four words know before you show before you show that product that service that opportunity to your client you need to know before you show what's their preferred communication style you know how to start point can you say the same thing in a firm fun friendly or factual matter so learning to say the same thing in four ways i come from that persona that that tends to be a little bit more direct and when i was studying with dr rome in in atlanta

oh my god the funny moment september of 1999 still remember it he said to me jj got my attention yeah let me show you how you can annoy 90 of the general population just by being yourself what the fuck how did you know that because i happen that persona tends to be the smallest group of the general population i really my homies yeah the military attracts the special forces attract a lot of those personas. But they're the smallest group of the general population, 10% to 15%, plus or minus, give or take. And what was fascinating is I understood this. And what I heard is I'm leaving a lot of the money on the table.

In business, I'm leaving a lot of money on the table because I'm doing pretty good, but I'm doing pretty good with my personas. What about the other? Then he said to me, JJ, would you be willing? I'm just curious. Would you be willing to learn to say the same thing in a different way? What do you mean the same thing? There's a different way?

So I was ready, way so i was ready right i was ready we we hear that famous uh saying i've heard it before but i really it resonated me at that time when the student is ready the teacher will appear well guess what teacher appeared in september of 1999 in atlanta, I love this data because, you know, I've kind of tuned into when people use language where they say think or emotion. It helps me identify masculine and feminine. It helps me identify if they're in that emotional sort of brainwave or brain sphere, hemisphere, if you will, or if they're in that logic thing. But I love these four keys and how people have those personalities and how you can identify them. And all of it's really, a lot of it's about gaining rapport, right? And developing a relationship, right? You've, that's the first thing that they kept on harping, hammering in over and over and over in the UK.

Rapport, rapport, rapport. And then I'm like, rapport, is that two P's or one P in rapport? I'm like, what's rapport? Is it French? Rapport, rapport. So it's very similar. And you, they kept on advocating that a contact handler has to establish and maintain rapport with people.

I'm like, okay, how do you do that? Well, you know, you just have to establish rapport. I got it. How do you do that?

How do you do that? Well, you just do it. What's the model of reference? How do you do that? So, because over there, it's an instructor teaching the lesson plan of the past instructor

because you're right they do a year or two years and then they move and they come back take the lesson span and um a few years before i was uh back and in the uk and i was on an interrogator course so prison handling and tactical questioning i was on my interrogator course. And that was something because we didn't train that way in Canada. First of all, all I heard is who wants to go to the UK? And I'm like, well, I want to go to the UK. And then they sent me to the UK for a seven-day course. I'm like, seven days? As in do we have weekend off?

No, there's no weekend off it's it's it starts on a on a sunday and it finishes on a sunday i'm like seven days really oh you don't i don't that's amazing really anyways and in the first hour chris i was taken stripped naked thrown into a cell and and interrogated. That's Friday. That was not on the curriculum. What does that say that I was going? Yeah. And the warrant officer, that was like just, he did what we call a harsh interrogation. Nine minutes nonstop of yelling.

Wow. Was he ever going to breathe? like he was ticked off or something I mean because I'm Canadian I don't know but when you don't have anything on you everything is on play everything is vulnerable so if you have any weird things going tattoos or whatnot guess what it's coming out and I never knew you could put so many swear words in sentences uh so he goes up and down and and i'm and i'm just standing there because i know i'm supposed to say i cannot answer that question even when i said not oh i cannot answer that question he go and he already knew that i was going to say that and he just chastised me even more okay well i'm not going

to say that again uh anyways i was flaring and my fists were i'm like and and then it's like okay get dressed get back in the classroom i'm like what am i doing here i'm like i'm in over my head some people pay for that treatment you know shock and shock and awe but as i was leaving because we had four interrogations going at the same time. So all the doors open, four of us, the four of the partners, we're coming out and no one's looking at each other. We're just looking at the floor because we just got, you know, violated. And we're sitting in, I was student number three. And then when everyone was finished, all the instructors lined up and started like debriefing us.

And it's okay, number three. And he started like debriefing us and it's okay number three and he started going everything that he was able to capture flabbergasted how many really do you know because i didn't answer any of his questions not one question i haven't didn't answer one of them but he was he knew exactly my triggers he knew exactly what was going through my mind and he attributed this something called bsa behavioral symptom analysis i became a student tell me more about that but they couldn't tell me more about that because where did you take those uh that resource that information where does it come from and when i was you know looking doing research uh later on in my career i went down to get certified in nlp neurolinguistic programming, 125 hours.

And in that program, that's where I saw, ah, behavioral symptom analysis. You cannot not communicate. It's being able to read people's physiology. I'm better at reading people's physiology because I have a model of reference. That D persona will project a certain way, but the S persona will also project a different way. But if they're lying, it shows and it manifests itself differently. And if they're telling the truth, it manifests differently, as in you could misread people because you don't have a model of reference. Someone that's shy

could also look like someone is holding back on information so the persona itself as in having the model of reference makes me better at utilizing uh nlp as a neurolinguistic programming makes me better at using all the other tools because i have that foundation that model of reference then i can put everything on top and understand that, okay, how does that apply from a D persona, an I persona, an S persona? There are four main personas, but combined together, you will have 41 different style blends. So when you're good at reading the one persona, now you can start blending because 80% general population will have at least two to three traits together. So I'm a DC style blend, so more dominant and cautious. My wife, Julie, my business partner, she's an SCI style blend,

and that's a supportive, cautious, inspiring style blend. I really have to listen. What's the issue? Is it an S issue? Is it a C issue? Is it an I issue? Oh, crap. Am I the issue? What an s issue is it a c issue is it an i issue oh crap am i the issue what's the issue so you're always the issue so yeah that's how it works for all husbands i actually documented it i put it on the website as a talk um i wanted to get back uh speaking after covid uh and and come up

with a new subject so i wrote the, how to successfully navigate hostile environments using the F word. Ah, so how does that work? When is the work? When the wife says to you or the girlfriend says, yeah, like I get where we need to talk. Does that,

this is the F word. Well, the story that I shared on the stage was that I had just finished three days of training with the senior attachés. You're putting in 14, 16 hour days. And the last day I specialized in a field of, or I've been training them on, elicitation and how to counter elicit as in how to avoid being elicited for information uh so um it's it was a fall evening i'm at the house i've used all my words i don't know the research will show that men will use anywhere from five to eight thousand words in their day and women can use anywhere from 20 to 35 000 words in their day so I used all mine twice that day.

I'm tapped out. But Julie hasn't had her opportunity to use all her words. So after supper, we're sitting down in the living room. We're having a cup of tea. And then she's just, you know, she's going at it. But she's not asking questions, Chris. She's making a statement with a pitch, which is a form of elicitation.

Huh. I was like, oh, it's raining? It's raining. It's raining? Just by that pitch, you're supposed to add your say. I can't believe she sat down on the phone, right? And I'm just not buying in i'm

just there and then she says to me looks at me and says why aren't you answering any of my questions and without thinking i looked at her and i said i don't feel obligated in answering all your questions oh wow now you know as a recognized global authority in communication and relationship development i read the change in her physiology yeah and i thought by adding these three words it would save my glutamus maximus i looked at her and i said at this time i'm happy to talk about it a little bit later but not right now i'm tired all right so i don't feel obligated to answer any of your questions at this time. Then she goes, obligated?

Then she stood up and she did the, you know, when you put your... You got a frying pan coming at you soon there, buddy. Something like that. Obligated? You don't feel obligated? Then she left the room. Then she went outside.

Then I'm like, what do I do now? I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to put it on there. So on the website, if you go to the speaking, it's a 20-minute presentation. And then at the end, the audience gets a chance to vote. So from there, I'm now a three-time award-winning speaker, as in that's the presentation that I did. And then I use that story as in I don't feel obligated. So I give guys hope because then the guys can look at their wives,

hey, I'm not as bad as JJ. Yeah, there you go. There you go. You know, you should teach courses for people in dating. I knew that for dating and relationships and stuff because it's rough now at 55 and a lot of the stuff out there has got a lot of

emotional damage. It just so happens we do. Oh, do you? Okay. I'm looking at your website. You help coaches and consultants, law enforcement, direct selling and sales. I love what you talked about with rapport. Jesus, it seems like that is such a lost art in sales nowadays.

People just go right for the close. They just want to skip the first, second, third base and go right to home base with you on closing you for a deal. I get that all the time on email and LinkedIn. It's like, hey, we're a manufacturing reseller. And, uh, do you want to buy from us? And I'm like, did you even check my LinkedIn? Like, what made you think that I'm interested in the manufacturing? Like, what the fuck you are so off the mark of qualifying me and gaining rapport. And they're just shotgunning it. Uh,

you train corporations and government. Enhanced investigative interviewing, which I love for jobs. Because if you spend the time and money to hire right, it saves you so much brain damage on the back end. And then you get some advantage as well. As in the first book that I co-authored, inside that book is my methodology in regards to how do you establish and maintain rapport so i created the report and um in every interaction that we will have with people we will either complete or compete with that interaction like two you know two d's competing who's going to be in charge two i's who's competing who's going to be the life of the party?

So we either complete or compete. Now, being French, I was writing the words, and I'm like, did I spell this properly? Because it's the same letters, except one has the letter L in it. And then my brain went as in L. What's the L factor of completing an interaction? Until you can find a common link, like common love no connection you need to find a common link that common like that common love is so when you're looking at a ladder you have to connect it to the ground right in a solid foundation and leaning on solid foundation and it will require energy to go up that ladder

well guess what and when it comes to establishing and maintaining rapport it will require energy to go up that ladder well guess what and when it comes to establishing and maintaining rapport it will require effort there's also insights as the ability to see things others overlook in regards to connecting it to a solid foundation leaning in on the solid foundation and moving up but there's four rungs on there now if you are more on the task oriented side of life before i can do business with you i must first trust you now if you're more on the people side of life before i can do business with you you must i must first like you so one that needs trust first based on proof trust is earned but on the other side relationship comes comes first. Once I like you,

I will trust you with my personal information. On the trust side, once I trust you, I will see that you have value and I will want to build a relationship with you. It's more of a professional relationship. So trust and relationship comes in in so it just comes in at a different different time but at the end rapport is the highest state of relatability that's when that's when they sign the contract that's when they put on the on the team usa jersey as an operative so there's four rungs on that ladder for you to be able to move to that state and took me two years just uh because i was there and i was just trying testing things out so i can teach the other about how do you establish

or maintain rapport so it's listening observing and discerning and speaking listening observing discerning and speaking as then you got to be listening to the other person first listening for the clues and cues. Outgoing reserve. Task or people. Discerning. Which quadrant. Because you listened, and now you're able to observe the mannerisms, their physiology, and the words that they choose to use. Discerning, I'm sensing D, I, S, or C.

And then speaking, provide your pitch or provide the information that you want to provide what's interesting here is I turn that into a behavioral based model because listening is an S attribute they're the other they're other professional listeners the observing is a C attribute they They are the professional observers. And starting, that's the D attribute. They don't have a problem making decisions. And it's like, oh. And then, of course, the I speaking, yeah, they're all about speaking.

So you need all four. That's sort of like the sequence in order for you to connect by design and not by chance in order to establish and maintain rapport. So that's how you do the rapport ladder. So in that book is that chapter. in order to establish and maintain rapport. So that's how you do the rapport ladder. So in that book is that chapter. And then I wrote another book, another chapter for another book that never did get published, but how to master rapport in the workplace. So rapport is so key. But you see how your message is your message.

I did not know how to build rapport because spy school didn't teach me. They just said, you need to build rapport. How do you build rapport? You didn't have a model of reference. So from there, got it. Created my own, and now I'm able to teach it with others because like law enforcement, witness protection, they use the four temperament model of human behavior in their witness protection. Because they want to change your persona so you're not easy to be found ah fantastic so they have to introduce a model of

reference so that they understand so they don't resist it and then receive it like hey there you go i'm gonna do that at the office try and make it so don't be found note to self buy some camouflage suits for the office um well jj it's been wonderful to have you on very insightful and we could probably talk for hours but uh you know for the most part uh the data you have is just amazing as i've been going through your website uh give us your final pitch on the show how people can get a hold of you reach out to you see if they're simpatico gain rapport with you as well etc etc well definitely the number one place to go is to the retire spy.com landing page i would scroll all the way down um last week we just put a

complimentary uh program on mastering the art of interpersonal relationships both in french and in english so you can choose your language it's already there it's four easy lessons uh and then the fifth lesson there is something special that was going to come out if you finish the race so but you know what for me um look at a model as a model reference because raising your kids it will greatly help it helped me raise my son and my daughter uh and then uh celebrate 34 years of marriage with my lovely wife. So it makes a big difference because it's a force multiplied, multiplies your capabilities both in business and in your personal life.

So start with theretirespy.com. And if you want to, there's a place where you can actually book a call with me. Complimentary 30-minute call anywhere around the world. So that's your point of contact. There you go. Well, thank you very much, JJ,

for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. Deeply insightful and fun. And, uh, of course, you know, a lot of the stuff you use is great for building relationships,

uh, for, you know, I, you know, we, we have this on the show where people come on the show and I have to usually try and hopefully get some Mr. Rapport with them and get to know them. You know, we, we have this on the show where people come on the show and I have to usually try and hopefully get some instant rapport with them and get to know them.

You know, people I've never met. I do that when I go on planes, when I travel or just about anywhere I go, I'll do that in the elevator just to be a shithead. Uh, because you know, everyone's like, we have to stand and be quiet. No, fuck that. I'm going to mess with people. Um, you know, I, I'm a rebel that way, but I'm, I'm deeply interested in people. And that's why we do the show. I'm, I'm, I'm sick'm a rebel that way, but I'm, I'm deeply interested in people. And that's why we do the show.

I'm, I'm, I'm sick of me. I'm over me. I've, I've been dealing with me for 15 years or the audience has been dealing with me for 15 years. I've been dealing with me for 55, but, uh, I'm, I'm interested in people. I'm, I'm interested in their, you know, why they choose their pathways, why they go down through life. There's no one perfect way to do life.

Um, I don't know, unless you're born into, I don't know, a billionaire family, but even their pathways, why they go down through life. There's no one perfect way to do life. I don't know, unless you're born into, I don't know, a billionaire family, but even then you're probably going to have some issues. There you go. So thank you very much, JJ, for coming to the show. We really appreciate it. My pleasure. There you go. And thanks to my audience for tuning in. We couldn't do it without you either as

well. Go to goodreads.com, FortressCruzFoss, YouTube.com, FortressCruzFoss. All the billionaires, PulressCruzFoss, YouTube.com, FortressCruzFoss, all billionaires, Pulitzer Prize winners, newsmakers, authors, CEOs we have on the show, just some of the

brilliantest minds and you're just going to learn so much. Two to three shows every weekday, 10 to, not every, yeah,

every weekday and 10 to 15 a week. I can't feel my legs anymore. There's so much content, people. Go listen to it all. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other.

Stay safe and we'll see you guys next time. And that should do it. Thanks, JJ.