The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Julie Holunga, Amplifying Trust in Leaders, Teams, and Organizations

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

Julie Holunga, Amplifying Trust in Leaders, Teams, and Organizations Julieholunga.com Show Notes About The Guest(s): ​ Julie Halunga is a trainer and coach who helps professionals amplify their influence and impact. She specializes in developing leaders, teams, and organizations to communicate clearly, build trust, and achieve their goals. Julie has a background in international business and has worked with a variety of industries, including professional services, law, accounting, and investment firms. She is also a master trainer with Emergenetics, a global assessment tool that helps individuals and teams understand their thinking and behavioral preferences. ​ Summary: ​ Julie Holunga joins Chris Voss on The Chris Voss Show to discuss the importance of trust in leadership and how to communicate effectively to build trust. Julie shares her mission to rid the world of lazy leaders and emphasizes the need for clear and direct communication. She explains the four pillars of trust: care, sincerity, reliability, and competency. Julie also highlights the importance of being present and adapting communication styles to meet the needs of different individuals. She provides insights on making conflict constructive and offers strategies for overcoming challenges in communication. ​ Key Takeaways: ​ - Trust is the root of everything in leadership and is essential for innovation and problem-solving. - Direct and clear communication builds trust and helps avoid misunderstandings. - Effective communication requires understanding the needs and preferences of the audience. - Conflict can be constructive and lead to better ideas and solutions. - Apologizing unnecessarily can undermine confidence and trust. ​ Quotes: ​ - "Trust is the root of everything. Without trust, people won't go above and beyond or deliver quality goods and services." - Julie Holunga - "Direct communication doesn't mean being mean or dismissive. It's about being clear and speaking with conviction." - Julie Holunga - "Conflict is necessary for innovation and problem-solving. It's where the best ideas come from." - Julie Holunga

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Wow, that's great. We're going to be talking with an amazing young lady today. She is going to enlighten us in amplifying trust in leaders, teams, and organizations. Julie Halunga joins us on the show today. She's going to be talking to us about leadership. She's a trainer and she's a coach and everything that she does. She develops professionals to amplify their influence and impact. The most sustainable and motivating program she offers is a multi-month program, including professional development programs to build skills and individual coaching to problem solve. Following the skill building phase, she works with teams to instill the trusted voice paradigm to develop collaborative patterns that deliver value.

Through these programs, leaders get out of their own way, developing trusting relationships with key stakeholders and have a positive impact on the organization's bottom line. Her expertise lies with professional services, law, accounting, and investment firms with specialization in the careers of female leaders. She also has a wonderful TED Talk as well on the power of leadership language. Welcome to the show, Julie. How are you? Thank you, Chris. It's great to be here with you.

Thank you. It's wonderful to have you as well. Give us your dot coms. Where can people find you on the interwebs? Sure. It's pretty easy. It's JulieHalunga.com and that's H-O-L-U-N-G-A. There you go.

So Julie, give us a 30,000 overview of what you do and how you do it in your words. Sure. So I'm on a mission to rid the world of lazy leaders because I know that the world really needs leaders who communicate clearly and directly, don't sugarcoat things, that they see conflict as a necessity. I love this already. I can tell. And that they use strong leadership language. So I grew up overseas in Paris and New Delhi and Hong Kong. And I really

developed a curiosity in people during those seven years. And so I have a lot of friends who ridicule me because I'm always asking them about the day-to-day of their jobs that I just, I want to picture what they do on any given day. So- Are you for that? Yeah. Because they say, why do you ask so many questions? Because I don't understand. I want to know what the surgeon does when he shows up in the morning. I want to know what the CIA agent

does when she shows up to work in the morning or the evening. Maybe they don't want to tell you because they're just on OnlyFans all day or watching YouTube videos or something. I don't know what OnlyFans are. I don't think these tell you because they're just on like OnlyFans all day or, you know, watching YouTube videos or something. I don't know what OnlyFans is. I don't think these two. Maybe others are.

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. That's funny they don't want to tell you. Maybe they just don't think about what they do. They're just in kind of a mode of subconscious thing. They haven't really given much thought to them. But that's probably what you do is you help them start thinking consciously about what they're doing and maybe more present and more strategic, maybe. Yeah.

Lead better. Right. So stop being lazy and flip it to that. Yeah. Deliberate. You just go right to the point. Stop being lazy. I'm trying to dress it up and be nice and just be like, maybe they're not lazy.

And you're just like, they're lazy. Yeah. be nice and just be like maybe they're not lazy and you're just like they're lazy yeah and and most of the time chris all all comic aside most of the time it's not intentional oh okay right we're all so busy we don't think about it we don't really think it matters or it's a difference and then they meet me and they realize oh oh, it does matter. It does matter. Making a difference matters. So give us a little bit about your personal history, your hero's journey. How did you grow up and how did you get into the field that you're in?

Sure. So as I mentioned, I grew up overseas. My dad was a banker with Citibank at the time. It was called Citibank and moved back to New York in eighth grade. This was the mid-80s, so big hair, which at the time, I guess, was a good thing. But to me, it was always a struggle. I grew up in that era. I mean, all the chicks, in fact, I saw a meme the other day that had pictures of all the girls in my high school who had that big hair.

Yeah. And the joke was they contributed to about 30% of the loss of the ozone layer. You were going to say that. Absolutely. Yeah. Mine was just naturally big, so I would like to say I did not contribute. I didn't need any hairspray. So I grew up just outside of New York City, but always had this in me of wanting to do things differently

and not wanting to, as I said before, my friends laugh at me like, why do you ask so many questions about my work? That I knew in high school that I was different, that I didn't want to stay in New York, that I didn't see New York as the center of the universe. And went to college, met my now husband, who's Canadian, from a tiny town, very far up north in Canada. And we have moved around from Boston to Calgary, and we're now outside of Denver, because I knew that just the life that I had grown up, it was constantly changing. That's very much part of my bones. And I find myself liking change a lot. And I know that that's where it comes from. Let me ask you this, because you grew up with more of an international flair than I did. My parents moved around a lot when we were

kids, but yours was more international. Paris, New Delhi,ong kong then new york which is the weirdest country of all just kidding and do you think that that kind of taught you to embrace change to you know you had to be you had to kind of learn you were asking probably a lot of questions because you know you're going to different environments different languages you know it seems like people that move around when they're young, if it doesn't totally traumatize them, military brats and stuff, they kind of learn to be adaptive to change, be more diverse. They seem like they're a little more pliable as human beings to change maybe. I would say for me personally, absolutely. Change will throw me, change will throw me just like change can throw other people.

But I tend to get on board with that change pretty quickly. And I did. I had to be adaptable because most of the time we moved at the start of the school year, but sometimes we didn't. So coming in in January, hey, here's the new girl. And, you know, even moving back to New York in eighth grade, right, which middle school is awful no matter where you live, that people, I remember distinctly people talking to me really loudly. And then when I responded, they would say, oh, you speak English really well. And then I would remind them, you know, we went to kindergarten together. I was born here.

You know, I spent the first five years of my life here with you. But they thought, well, the question was always, do you speak Japanese? And I was like, no, I lived in Hong Kong. Okay, nevermind. No, I don't speak Japanese. And I won't further that answer. But it was that five years moving back to New York before moving to college was probably some of the hardest in my life. Just never fully adapting back into that culture. And because I was so used to every six months, you know, new people coming into the school. So there was no such thing. Like I remember my mom coming home from school and complaining about something in eighth grade.

And my mom teaching me the word click. I'd never heard that word before because we didn't have it because things were constantly changing. And, you know, I, I lived in India when Indira Gandhi was assassinated. So talk about massive change.

Yeah. Right. And, and I, and I remember my mom always saying you know you'll never forget this day you'll never forget where you were you'll never forget the conversations you had because that's how she remembered you know where she was when jfk was was assassinated so having gone through that experience it's very hard to then come back to a community that has been with itself for, you know, 13 years at that point.

There you go. And so that made it so you ask questions. You know, it's one of the ways you learn, especially in your new environment. And questions, you know, I think it was Anthony Robbins' book, his second book that came out that talked about the importance of questions that I really tuned in. And questions help you identify so much things. They help you learn. They help you question paradigms, challenge paradigms. And I think that's a little bit of what you help people do, take a look at their paradigms and how they're operating and how they can improve it.

Is that correct? And especially I find, you know, I talk to a lot of teams and individuals about trust, right? That seems to be from my perspective, my experience in doing this work for two decades is that I think of trust as roots, right? They're underneath the ground. You don't see them, but it is the root. Trust is the root of everything.

So if you don't have trust, then people aren't going to go above and beyond to produce and to be innovative and to problem solve and to deliver quality goods or services. And from my experience, asking those questions, it's such a great way to build trust. One, like people don't do it. And so when you ask someone a question and you're really listening for the answer, you're building trust. And if you're asking questions that you don't know the answer to already, even better, you're making people feel heard and you're building trust.

You're showing a genuine interest in them. Exactly. Exactly. I still fake it though when i ask questions i don't really care what the answer is uh for my employees so i just i just i just ask them questions they go no shut up and go do your work so you ask questions for a living so well this is different this is the part i enjoy my employees i abuse holy so this is what you know I need someone like you to give me good advice. So how do we, how do we, people right now in the audience are like, how mean is he to his employees? What's going on over there at the Chris Fong show? I'm guessing your employees are laughing and rolling their eyes.

I'm getting messages from HR right now. So there you go. So how does a leader convey trust, exemplify trust, encourage trust, and seem like he's trustworthy? Does this mean I have to stop stealing people's lunches out of the fridge and stuff? You probably start there. Yeah, that's a good step one. All right. Yeah. So I look at trust.

Yeah. I look at trust in four pillars, and this is some work. I highly recommend the book called The Thin Book of Trust. I mean, you can read it in a day, less, a couple hours. Should I be able to trust something that thin? Yes. Okay. Because from my perspective, like we were talking before we came on about all these great books out there,

but I don't know about our listeners, but I'm inundated by information all the time. Read this book, listen to this. So I really enjoy this, but they talk about, and this is my perspective as well in all of my work in my own primary research is that there are four pillars of trust. There's care, meaning, Chris, I really care about your success. There's sincerity, meaning I mean what I say and I do as I say, right? So it's, I'm not going to talk out of one side of my mouth and say, yeah, Chris, you're going to be promoted and then go to the next person down the hall and tell them they're up for promotion for the same role. Yeah. Stop doing that. It's a sense of reliability.

So if I say, hey, Chris, I'll send you that report by the end of the day, I do it. And if I'm not going to, if for whatever reason something gets in the way or I don't have all the information I need, that I let you know when I realize this isn't going to get done by the end of the day. That builds trust. And then the final pillar and piece is around competency. And competency really, this is a piece that most people don't think about. That's the one we fail all the time. Yes. And most of the time, most of the time, it's not the individual's fault.

So it's most of the time, it's, hey, Chris, you're really successful over here in this project A. So I'm going to give you project Z because you're successful here. Therefore, I'm making the assumptions you're going to be successful over here. And then, Chris, you're excited about the opportunity. You try something out. You do something new. And you realize, I have no idea what I'm doing.

I don't have the skills. I don't have the competencies. I don't have the resources. But I'm not going to let anyone know about that because I don't want to ask for help, which a lot of people feel if they ask for help, they're showing a sign of weakness. And so what happens is then people, whether it's one or two of those pillars where trust has been broken, all of a sudden, I don't trust Chris because I gave him this project Z and he's completely failing. And instead, when I work with teams or individuals and I facilitate the conversation around trust, all of a sudden what comes out when we peel back that onion is that I really do think that Chris cares about me. He's reliable.

He does what he says he's going to do. But the piece where it's missing is he's not sincere. He says one thing to one person, and then he says something else to someone else. And once we identify, oh, here's the pillar, or maybe two pillars, where trust has been broken, it's a much easier conversation to have than just, I don't trust you and I don't know what to do about it.

We used to have the rule in my office that we never talk shit behind each other's backs. We just talk about it openly in the office and pretty much haze and shame each other in the office. And then that way, you know, I used to have people come up to me and say, you know, I like you, Chris, more than most anybody I know. And I go, why?

Isn't my incredible, charming, don't just stop with the joke. And I would say, why? And they, because you talk straight to everybody and, and you, you're, you, you know, you give some tough love, but you talk straight to everybody. You tell everyone what you think. And if you like someone, you tell them that you like them or it gets communicated. If you don't like someone, it gets communicated very effectively to them in person because you don't have a problem dressing them down. And so it's funny that way. I've heard that from usually a lot of women because women, you know, there's a lot of cattiness that goes on between women to women and so usually they really like that with me because i i say what i think and

do what i say and and all the difference although i probably have hurt some feelings but i don't really care well you're sincere but isn't that i'm sincerely an asshole sometimes yeah sometimes and that i get that question all the time. So you just broke the seal there. What do I do if I'm working with someone who's an asshole and digging their heels in and doesn't want to change? Yeah. And I mean, there's, that's a whole nother two hour conversation. There you go.

Yeah. There you go. So let me ask you this is because we're in this topic. You talk about having people use more direct language and be more honest and straightforward and not do sort of fluffy language where they're like, you know, you know, that sort of thing. How, how do you encourage that?

What sort of strong language do you encourage? Is it tough love? Is it being direct? Is it insulting the hell out of people? No, I don't recommend that, Chris. Which part? The insulting part. Damn it.

I know. Sorry. Sorry to break your bubble there. But I look at, so there's strong leadership language, right? You're speaking with conviction. And it tends to be direct. Direct doesn't, sometimes people are like, oh, you know, they hear direct and it's, I can't do that. And in fact, I'm not talking about, when I'm talking about the language, it's the vocabulary, it's the choice of words you're using.

Being direct actually can be really helpful for people, right? If there's any, you said fluffiness or grayness around something, they don't know what to do. So when, as opposed to weak leadership language, it's conditional. It's, I think that maybe I could suggest that we do this, or I believe that this is a good idea. As opposed to, I recommend we take this course of action. Or I suggest, given my experience, that we go down this road. And the big difference that I talk about when people are like, I can't speak directly. Or that it seems harsh. The balance is not so much in the word choice, but in the tone.

Oh, really? Yeah. So the tone at one end can be super aggressive. And I know you were joking, but you're going to do as I say, and I don't want to discuss it. That's super aggressive, right? That's not a conversation. Yeah. My favorite direct is shut up and go do your work and get the hell out of my office.

Right. Is that too direct? Yeah. Yeah. Just slightly. And also the tone, right? The tone of the tone.

Yeah. So if I smile and I say, is this like a game that I play with my dogs where I'll cuss out my dogs, but I'll say, you're a cutie. Right. And I swear. And when people like you're swearing at your dog,

what kind of, and I'm like, it's about the tone I use. It is totally the tone. Now I still would not recommend shut up and go do your work how about four letter expletives no although it feels really good to say that you're taking away everything i love i know and i'm just making you a better leader so you're welcome right we have the tone at that one end but the other end is like being too meek oh right? And saying, well, I don't know.

And I find I'm doing this, like we get small into ourselves. Leaders become smaller. They move away from the table. They cross their arms. Then it goes into a lot of body language, right? So it's, I think that maybe this is a good idea. No, that's way too meek. And it's finding this balance, depending on the situation, depending on the circumstances, depending on the people involved. And I know what's going through

your listeners' minds is like, oh my gosh, I have to figure this out for every person I talk to. I'm going to have to change the way I talk. Yes, you do. And it's not something that you necessarily need to memorize like a recipe. When I talk to Chris, I do this. When I talk to Jane, I do this. When I talk to Madeline, I do this. It's not necessarily that, but it's being very conscious and deliberate in how you are engaging with people that all of a sudden it will become natural, and you won't have to think about the recipe.

I'm at the point in cooking dinner, I don't want a recipe. It takes too much thought and effort. I just want to be able to make chili and I know what things I'm going to pour in and about how much chili seasoning I need, right? So it's just, you get familiar with this and you practice it. It's not easy. I'm not going to say that it's easy, but instead of being that lazy leader, you're being a deliberate leader. You're being thoughtful. Who's my audience? What's the message they need to hear?

What's the impact I want to have? What's the goal for me in this conversation? How am I trying to influence them? There you go. So, you know, there's an old saying. What was it I learned in sales a long time ago? You could say Tony Alva taught it to me. He said, you can say almost anything to anyone if you smile.

So, I don't know, maybe does that play into the tonality thing? A bit, but I'm going to push back. I don't think you can say just about anything. You knew where I was going with that, didn't you? Yeah, I do. Yeah, all right so you know the other thing i find really important when dealing with people on a one-on-one basis or directly is being present you know looking them in the eyes reading their facial expressions being

present with them and trying to kind of have like mind meld sort of thing with them you know not that full star trek weirdo shit but just like just like letting them know that hey i'm here i'm listening i'm present with you what the fuck do you want right that sort of thing not not the last part so let me ask you this talking directly people we live in an environment now that's gone complete emotionalism and we live in a society that's gone complete emotionalism a wheel of society's gone complete emotionalism and everybody's got a fragile tragic sort of sort of thing going on we live in this environment of of corporate environments where there's now microaggressions which makes me want

to punch people in the face when i hear microaggressions you know and people are just you know slighted because i don't know you didn't look at them when you were talking to them or something and now they're offended so how does what you're talking about being direct with people and language fit into this whole micro aggression you know my feelings got hurt because chris's color of shirt was too bright and it's clearly offends my religion or something you know how do we how do we balance yeah so you know the thing like all joking aside i do and have been the receiver of micro aggressions you know 20 years ago oh you're pregnant so you're probably not coming back to work and that was never my plan that was not i mean so many that happened so many times

and i at this when i was pregnant with my first my colleague who was a little bit older than i am a man his wife was pregnant at the same time and we would be in the kitchen you know chit-chatting and we were good friends and i would get these asinine comments and he wouldn't and so there was a different i was completely diminished by in terms of of what i could do and what i was that another woman doing it to you both oh so both the men and the woman yeah yeah yeah so i have been a receiver of microaggressions i see what you're saying now that again you know i go back to i think there is a laziness factor going on in this world. And I've been, I've gotten pushback on that, but I have. Hey, you want to make a lot of money?

Work hard. Like my son comes home, he's 20 and he's, you know, talking about this person making all this money and this person having a boat and second house. And I was like, then work really hard. You want to, you know, you're an engineer, stay in it and stay in your engineering classes, work really hard. You'll get any job you want. And I see this laziness of, I want to be promoted. I want to work on the best projects or engagements or clients. I want, I want, I want, okay, great. What are you going to get? What are you offering? What is the value that you bring to the organization? So to go back to your question of the directness, I see direct as give

me the information that I need to hear. It's not being mean or just do as I say and get out of here. But really be as clear as you can be when you're communicating to someone. And do it in a way that they can hear it. If you know that they're going to ask, anticipate, what are the questions they're going to ask? If you've noticed in the past, they always are asking for proof. Like, how do we know that this is the right idea? Show up with data. If they consistently ask you about, well, what is this going to do to our customers? And what's the impact it's going to have on our team? Bring that information. It's anecdotal, maybe, but bring them the stories that

you've heard. Or maybe they're the kind of person that ask about, well, how does this look when we lay it out? What's the actual process? How do we implement this? Then bring a thought. Doesn't mean it's the plan, but just think about, even if it's, I always tell people, even if it's like opening up the calendar invite to click the Zoom link, or you're walking down the hall, hopefully to meet with someone in person, that you're thinking about, okay, I'm going to meet with Chris. He tends to ask me these kind of questions. Okay, that's what I'm going to be prepared for. And I'm going to maybe ask him some questions around that.

And you highlight something that's really important that leaders need to understand. Your audience or technically your employees or whatever it is, it could be your vendors, your board, et cetera, et cetera. They're not a monolith of people. You just can't bark the same way. You know, you're a salesperson. I mean, that's really what leadership and being a CEO is. You're the, you know, people will be like, Chris, how did you become a CEO? And, and you love talking to people. It's like, I don't know. I was an introvert and then I had to become a CEO. And once I became a CEO, I realized that I had to sell to everybody. I had to sell to vendors.

I had to sell to employees. But the one thing you learn in sales is that people are different. And you've got to adapt to what their style of buying and selling. And you're trying to sell your ideas for the corporation your vision for the corporation what you want them to achieve or do or or how you can tap into them to help them achieve what they want to do so you can do it and serve our leadership but you know they're all different and so you've got to you've got to recognize that on your team that you you know you've got to approach each of them different motivate them differently they have different

things and and then you know some people you just have to throw out a second story window so that's a whole different level of motivation right it's very direct though so yeah it is direct it is but it is it's the it's the original influencer right like it's the throwing out the window the second no no ceos are influencers, right? And I don't mean they're selling a product online, but that's what they do all day. Whether it's their board, their employees, their C-suite team, they're influencing them to follow a vision or a mission that they've created or identified. I've thought about just throwing people out of the second story window all day long. That or adding more stories to my office building. So there you go. So instead of avoiding

it, you talk about making conflict constructive. How do we make conflict constructive? Do we have to put away the spears or something? Well, yes, first and foremost, put away the daggers. What I like to share with people is that conflict can be really good and in fact is pretty imperative. It's a necessity if you're trying to be innovative. If you're trying to come up with a solution to a problem that you haven't seen before, whether it's within your own company, whether it's with your customers or clients, we need that pushback. Nothing great happens when everyone sits in a room and agrees with each other. Right? That's a good point.

That should be on a shirt or a cup. It should be. Put it on the conference room. Yeah, exactly. But if we think of when people are pushing back and not just agreeing with us, better ideas come to the surface. So that's what I mean by constructive. I see.

So people are, you know, it's the challenge of ideas, the battle of ideas, the battle for the best idea, to find the best ideas. That's right. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And the way that I think most people avoid conflict, right? Even the people who say, oh, I love it. Like it totally energizes me.

They do it wrong. It's not productive. And when I think about conflict, going into that situation is to think about how do I want to feel afterwards? And what do I want to do afterwards, right? And if you can think of it that way, you can go into a hard conversation or if you're on a team and you're trying to figure out the next best thing or you're trying to be innovative to think, I want these relationships really matter to me. Or these relationships really matter to me. And these ones over here, not so much.

And that's being honest, right? You throw those people out in the second story. You might throw them out or you might just kind of push them aside. Just lay them up against the wall or something like that. Yeah, yeah, whatever it might be. And instead, when I talk about constructive conflict, it's really thinking about what's the problem at hand and focusing on that and not on the person. Because when conflict gets ugly and when we avoid it, it's when we're focusing on the person. But instead think about, okay, so this just happened

with a client of mine. We worked through it. She was writing a new job description for herself and she was about to position it to the leaders and they hired someone and she thought that they hired someone to do that job that she was writing a new description for so she was so focused on the individuals who made that decision the person that they hired the people all involved and And instead, what we ended up doing is stepping back and saying, okay, what's actually the challenge here? Well, I really want to play that role. And I know I can add value this way to the firm. Okay. So let's have the conversation from that standpoint. And it completely shifted her own mindset. But then the conversation she ended up having with her leader.

There you go. Yeah. You stay focused and a better solution comes out of it. Yeah. It's hard to do. A lot of it seems to be just good communication. Absolutely. You mentioned that you work with, you specialize in working in the careers of female leaders.

Women are more passive in femininity too than men are. We're, you know, men are very aggressive. We have very aggressive language. We throw people out of second story windows because we have that wonderful upper body strength. Yeah. So do you find that women, women in business and women leaders struggle with being that direct? I mean, sometimes, you know, women sometimes just don't want to say the truth to you because they don't want to hurt your feelings, you know, and they're very egalitarian. So, that's female nature. So, do you find that that's a challenge or hurdle a lot of women have to overcome? Yeah. So, I would say that I have women

who are on both sides of the spectrum, but women tend to be in this double bind situation. If they are to demonstrate too much empathy, they're seen as meek and they're not going to be considered for that higher position. If they are to, and these are not my words but words that people have come to me with if they're too cut throat then they're you know they don't have enough empathy they can't really lead a team so it's finding this it's a very small amplitude that they can play in where men can play in a much bigger amplitude before they're considered, well, you said the word first, but considered an asshole, right? Or considered too meek, where women have this very small amplitude to play in. And again, what I talk about is what's needed in this situation?

And how do you stay within that amplitude? And most of the time, to go back to the start of our conversation, it's asking a lot of questions, making people feel heard. And also saying, here's the direction we're going in. This is where we're, this is going to be hard. You know, maybe we're going to have to do some layoffs or maybe we're going to have to make some hard decisions. We're going to have to cut budgets, but this is what we're getting to. How does that sit with you? Asking questions and polling them and getting people on board and getting people involved, making you feel like they're engaged or you're engaged with them and that they belong to something that's important rather than just some barking orders at them all day, which I still enjoy.

I knew you were going to say that. It's a great callback joke of the show. You talk about in your first TED Talk, you talked about don't let your words sabotage your career. What are some ways that we let words sabotage our careers? Well, it's using that conditional language and saying something like, I think that this is a good idea. It puts you in this one down position. So all of a sudden you're not, you're planting these seeds of doubt in your audience. And again, we were just talking about influencing people,

right? If you're planting a seed of doubt, it's going to be that much harder to influence them. Oh, interesting. And so really helping them think, what are the words that really are key for me to use to help me influence in this situation? Another one that I really would love for people to stop doing is apologizing. Stop saying sorry if there's no reason to say sorry. If you're late,

yes, apologize. If someone, this happened to a client of mine, he was waiting for materials to deliver to his board and there was the CFO consistently, month after month, sent in materials too late, then those materials weren't included in the information sent to the board before the board meeting. And he did everything, you know, he involved everyone under the sun. He tried everything to get this material to come to him on time. And then the CFO finally came to him and said, you know, my stuff never gets included. Right. So in that moment, my client had a choice to say, I'm going to throw you out the second floor window.

Right. Or to say, let's figure this out together. And he did a third choice, which I don't recommend, is he took on the ownership of this guy's mistake and this guy. And he said, I'm so sorry it doesn't get included every month. Wow. And what he was doing on reflection was he was trying to soften the environment because it was high tension, high stakes, the CFO. And he admitted to me privately that there was a lot of fear involved. This guy was pretty cutthroat. He threw everyone and anyone under the bus to make himself

look better. Wow. Yeah. So it was not a healthy- I don't think this was the way the guy was doing it. Yeah. And by the way, had been doing it for 35 years and no one called him on it. Wow. So the culture of the organization was allowing it. This guy then apologizes and said, I'm sorry, it doesn't get included. But this was the fascinating thing is then the CFO got even angry at him and said, why did you apologize? I know that I'm making a mistake. I know that I'm getting the materials to you late. Why did you just apologize? And my client said he just got smaller and smaller and smaller. He felt so

tiny. And by the way, he's 6'2". There's nothing small about him. It's a real dick narcissistic type of move going on here. Absolutely. Very manipulative. And my client fed right into that unknowingly. I would have punched him back. He was trying to ease things, but fed right into that. i would have found a third

story throw that yeah yeah and so you know there's a lot going on there right the culture of the teams that allowed this behavior to go on for for a long long time right and that that's again a whole nother conversation but really thinking about what are you apologizing for? And what my client said to me was he was apologizing because this guy looked bad every single month in front of the board and he did feel bad. He had empathy for this guy. Right. And so, well, what could you have said differently? What could you have done differently in that moment to express the empathy? But also, this is your fault, buddy, CFO. Get your stuff to me on time.

Yeah. Well, he's another dude, so I wouldn't do empathy. I'd just smack him between the eyes, not physically, but I'd just be like, this is you fucking up. This is on you, man. Don't try and put this on me. But that's how other guys will talk to each other. But Chris, if you're talking about a power differential, right? This is a CFO and you're like a middle manager. You'd be surprised what I've been accused of. That's actually how I got successful in working for other people is because I there we had some balls out conversations in front of people and people went he's leadership material

we should advance him the I have some real asshole problems sometimes but they don't seem to be problems actually they seem to work out but no it's it's you're right there needs to be empathy you know I mean certain people might get fired I seem to have a little bit of a dark triad sort of issue but but by design actually it's survival mode but yeah i mean you just have to be direct with people you just got to be wait you you turn yourself in late every time so that's why it doesn't get in there that's it you don't have to really you know and then he's gonna he's gonna flop around you're just gonna go no look man here's the issue you're turning your stuff in late do you know you're turning stuff late there's your asking questions

that you espouse and then he's gonna go you know he's gonna admit to it like he admitted eventually with your client but yeah the the non-apolog thing, I was guilty of that for a lot of years where I would apologize a lot because I was trying to be, I felt it was being empathetic. I wasn't really sorry, sorry, but like I was trying to soften the blow as you've talked about it

and be like, oh, I'm sorry. Okay, here, let's re-communicate why you're a dumbass. Not you personally, but you know, the employee. Just want to make that clear on the people who aren't watching the video. And it would backfire, you know, and it's not a strong position. It's not a strong position of leadership.

Leaders usually don't apologize. There's ways of saying, you know, I must have not communicated effectively, which is the same as saying that person's a dumbass. But no, it's code. But it's also saying, like, in this situation, to be able to say, I hear your frustration. Ah, yeah, there you go. It's a different way of putting it. Yeah. And I like that way a lot better. I know you're frustrated.

Yeah. I know you're frustrated. It's a pain that your materials don't get included. So what can we do to get them included? I'd still tell them, this is on you, get included. So what can we do to get them included? I'd still tell them this is on you, man. Oh, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

But that's how, that's how I roll. And I don't think a lot of people have that sort of thing, you know, being, being an entrepreneur at 18 and, and stuff. I think I had a little bit more moxie when i worked for other people with with my whole attitude but you know i mean that's why i'm an entrepreneur i can't i don't work well with others so i don't know how far i would have ever made in corporate but i don't know i mean i made it really far i don't know it would be interesting i always seem to jump over three to four levels of management uh mainly because people are just like, this guy's really an asshole. Someone should make him a boss. Yeah, I don't recommend the asshole way of leadership. That's not usually the road

I go down. That's my next book coming out next year. So there you go. Yeah, and I would totally agree with you. We're throwing a lot of comedy here, folks. The attorneys say I have to make that a sclerosis now because I've been calling it back so hard on the show. So Julie, you're one of 30 global master trainers with Emergenetics. Tell us about that and what that is. Yeah. So it's a phenomenal assessment tool that people take online and there's so many good tools out there. But the reason that I became a master trainer with Emergenetics is it not only helps people understand themselves, but it really helps people interact and it simplifies that human interaction. So I understand where my teammates are coming from. So a few minutes ago, we were talking about give people the information that they need. So Emergenetics, it's a one page profile that once people are trained and they understand it, they can see, okay, this is who Chris is.

This is how I need to communicate with Chris. And it was through understanding and learning about emergent ethics, which I use with all of my clients, with teams, with individuals, with entire organizations. I've put our county's DA's office. I think there are about 200 people in the DA's office, put the whole teams through eMERGE Genetics so they can communicate with each other really effectively. And what I figured out as I was developing and learning my own skills and understanding how people communicate is I developed the titanium rule. So we all know about the golden rule and the titanium rule takes it to a new level of speak to others the way they want and need to be spoken to.

Oh, because yeah, most of the time when I see communications break down or there's miss miscommunication of some kind, it's because I'm talking to you the way and giving you the information that I need. I'm not thinking about you as my audience and I'm not speaking to you as my audience, basically speaking to myself. And again, that's not a conversation. It's not a dialogue. And that's where communication breaks down. And again, it is work, right? We talked about,

it's not easy that you have to think about who you're talking to, what the circumstances are, and the impact you're trying to have. In that titanium rule, there's the word need, that they need to have. And so you correct me if I'm wrong, but let me throw this out to you as my theory on that. Because sometimes that's how I do look at people, what they need to hear from me. And so at times where I'm going to deliver tough love or straight talk or very, you know, a raw conversation, I think, you know, it's important that they hear my voice that, you know, it comes from a place of caring and love is to have my hands around their throat.

But I think of the example of the guy we talked about earlier who was slumming it in for 35 years, sending in his stuff late. He knew he was being manipulative, very much likely being manipulative. And probably has, God knows what sort of reason he was doing that for. It's a passive aggressive sort of thing.

Maybe he was just being a dick like Steve Jobs used to, you know, never have a license plate and always parking handicapped. It might've been narcissistic behavior. Who knows? But in that case, what he needed to be told was not maybe what he thought he needed to be told what he needed to be told he needed to be straight talk he needed to be put in his place and let him know that you're not shoving that you're not sliding that bullshit over my desk i mean that's usually what happens with me a lot of people when they try and gaslight me or they try and shovel some something across my desk or they try and pitch something at me to see how see you know if i'm a sucker if something's going to

go so to me that word need doesn't necessarily always mean that you need to be talked to in some sort of you know way that you're going to be babied sometimes you just might need me to wake you up from your little sleep you know thing in your little participation trophy that your parents put you through and train you in and you need to have a man talk to you and lead you and tell you how it is. I don't know. Yep. And, yes, if you've built that foundation of trust, they can hear that hard message.

They can. Usually the answer on the throat starts with building the foundation of trust. I think that's what – isn't that the foundation position? No, I'm just kidding. No, not at all. Not at damn it yeah but i but when i think when i say what they need and want it's what they need and sometimes what they need is not what they want there you go i think you just said what i was trying to say in the long round you you win the direct course line there yeah yeah but it is really thinking about i need to give a tough message to Chris.

I need to tell him to stop throwing people out the second floor window. Damn it. Right? And I know that you're the kind of person that's, let's just say, as a data guy. So I'm going to come to you and say, hey, listen, Chris, 99% of people who get thrown out of second floor windows do not survive. Is that really what you're aiming for? Kind of. Oh, no, not really.

I just want to hurt them a little bit. It's fun to see if they bounce. I mean, that's kind of the thing. But you made me change my paradigm in it. I'm only going to do first stories now. Okay, okay. Well, that's good because most people don't. Well, you know, because I care.

Yeah, not really. Don't tell my secrets, Julie. So, Julie, as we go out, give us a pitch out on what you do. You've got an exemplary website with all your training and resources on here. Tell people what they do, how they can reach out to you, how they can request for consultations and on board with your services. Yeah. So definitely go to my website, juliehalanga.com. You can take a trust assessment. It takes about seven minutes to complete, if not less, and it'll show you where the gaps are, whether it's within your teams or within

your leadership. And then we can work on those kinds of things. Typically, when a leader comes to me for their teams, or maybe some challenging people within their teams or across teams or individuals, we'll talk about what they want to achieve. Like, what's the desired outcome? And then I'll offer them different services that may help them. So it's really a case by case. This is not like off the shelf, here you go kind of services. And I do team facilitation. I do retreats. I work with teams.

Usually it's not a one-stop thing. It usually starts at the retreat and then we meet monthly. I have seen too often those lunch and learns or one and done things don't work. As I said, I'm on this mission to rid the world of lazy leaders, and I'm not going to do that in a one hour lunch. So I typically develop a relationship within a firm, within an organization, and then I'm able to see the culture and get to know the leaders and then really make a change for everyone and a lasting change. That's what,

that's what I'm going for. That's what fuels me. Yes. I run a business, but if I don't have that fueling piece, then it's not worth it to me. There you go. And then you have a free gift on your website.

People can download a five game changing principles to empower leaders. Yes. Yes. And I would, I would suggest, you know, I always love to leave these conversations with action that people can take. And here are a couple of things that you can do that will change your communication and allow you to be more of that deliberate, engaging leader, not the lazy one. So stop apologizing. We talked about that eliminate any negative or weak language like i think or i believe and you know that that conditional language and and adopt words like

i recommend i suggest i'm confident and you can always watch my ted talk as well that goes into more detail about it i like that suggest because you're still not saying commands. You're still like saying, just go do it. Right. And if someone's going to push back, if you're dealing with a really difficult client, they're going to push back better that they push back where you're coming from like a confident stance. Sure. As opposed to a meek one. Yeah. I mean, conflict, you know, subtle conflict or I don't know, you know, stuff that doesn't involve hand-to-hand combat battle and weapons is sometimes good too for flushing out objectives, resistance, flushing out resistance. We're breaking people's resistance. Flushing out objections, flushing out understanding.

Maybe someone's being resistant because they don't understand the vision of what you're trying to achieve. Right. And all that good stuff. One other thing you have is Women's Catalyst Network, an incubator for mid-career women. Yes, yes. And that is something that organizations, companies bring me in to work with a small cohort of their leaders over a six-month, eight-month timeframe to help them through all the things that we've talked about today and more. There you go. There you go.

Julie, it's been wonderful to have you on the show. Very insightful. Give us your dot coms one more time as we go out. It's juliehalonga.com, and I can be found on LinkedIn at Julie Halonga as well. There you go. Thank you, Julie, for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. Thanks, ladies, for tuning in.

Go to goodreads.com, Fortress Crispus, LinkedIn.com, Fortress Crispus, the big LinkedIn newsletter, the 130,000 LinkedIn group over there. What else is there? Crispus, one of the tickety-tockety, and what is it? CrispusFacebook.com. Thanks everyone for tuning in. Be good to each other, stay safe, and we'll see you guys next time.