The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Latina Madrina: Stories, Lessons, and Hard Truths From A Brown Latina In Tech by Julissa S. Germosén

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

Latina Madrina: Stories, Lessons, and Hard Truths From A Brown Latina In Tech by Julissa S. Germosén Amazon.com Latinamadrina.com In Latina Madrina: Stories, Lessons and Hard Truths from a Brown Latina in Tech, Julissa S. Germosén offers an empowering guide for Latinas, BIPOC, and other marginalized leaders navigating the challenging world of the technology industry and their personal identity. Drawing on her twenty-five years of experience, Julissa presents a road map to success that blends professional strategies with personal stories and reflections for you to consider. The book covers a wide range of topics, from overcoming generational trauma to redefining what it means to be a successful Latina, from mastering the top leadership skills to investing in yourself and making money moves, all while emphasizing the importance of embracing your authentic Latinidad. Julissa shares her journey from an immigrant family to achieving global leadership roles at Microsoft, Salesforce, and tech start-ups and building generational wealth in the tech industry. She provides readers with practical advice on topics like tackling microaggressions, the complexities and push-pull of Latinidad, and creating financial and emotional well-being. Through her unique perspective as a Dominicana and café-con-leche Latina in tech, Julissa acts as your Latina Madrina—godmother—offering guidance, wisdom, hard truths, and insider knowledge that can only come from someone who has walked the path.About the author Julissa S. Germosén, CEO of Mariposa Blanca, is an award-winning technology leader, highly sought-after speaker, best-selling author, and career coach with over two decades of experience leading teams in global enterprise sales, consulting, strategic alliances, product development, go-to-market strategy, and partner operations. Julissa’s book, *Latina Madrina: Stories, Lessons and Hard Truths from a Brown Latina in Tech,* and TEDx Talk, reflects her journey from immigrant roots in the Dominican Republic to her rise in the technology industry. Throughout her career, Julissa has driven growth and competitive advantage for Fortune 500 companies at Microsoft, Salesforce, and tech startups. Her expertise lies in people leadership, business strategy, transformation, and continuous improvement. As Director of Partner Ecosystem Development, notable achievements include optimizing Salesforce's partner operations and growing iCIMS' strategic alliances function by building product partnerships with Microsoft, Google, and Meta. At Microsoft, she held leadership positions in Microsoft Partnerships, Learning Experiences, and Consulting Services. Julissa has been honored to speak at TED x MSJC and various tech conferences, including Microsoft, Salesforce, HITEC, and LTX Connect. Additionally, she's been a Keynote Speaker at the National Hispanic Media Coalition and has spoken at Rutgers University and the New Jersey Statewide Latina Conference, among others. As a proud immigrant from the Dominican Republic, Julissa is passionate about education and the Latinx community. She has created the Latina Leadership Potential Award scholarship at Rutgers University, the first for a woman of Hispanic/Latine descent. She holds a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science & Criminology from Rutgers University and a Diversity Management Graduate Certificate from Cornell University.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the big show with your brain.

We certainly appreciate having you guys. As always, for 16 years and over 2,000 episodes, we've been bringing you the Chris Voss Show. We're going to announce that we're going to quit in another 16 years and probably, I don't know, four or five more thousand episodes. So watch for that. No, we're not. We're not quitting. Stop it. Don't go anywhere.

No flipping. Anyway, guys, I prefer the show to your family, friends, and relatives. go to goodreads.com i all i have is lame jokes people it's a it's a free show what more do you want it's not it's not i don't know you didn't pay for it anyway go to goodreads.com force has chris foss linkedin.com force has chris foss youtube.com force has chris foss chris foss one tiktok we have an amazing young lady on the show if i can figure how to do this bloody show that might be that may be a nice thing to do so i can know what's going on julissa haramosen is on the show with us today she's going to be talking to us about her latest hottest book that's just off the presses september 15th 2024 called latina madrina stories lessons

and hard truths from a Brown Latina in Tech. We're going to be talking about her insights and her exciting book. She's got a wonderful cover, too. She looks really excited in the front. She's the CEO of Mariposa Blanca. She says it better than I do, though. She gives it that nice Latin accent. She is an award-winning technology leader, highly sought-after speaker, best-selling author, and career coach

with over two decades of experience leading teams in global enterprise sales, consulting, strategic alliances, product development, go-to market strategy, and partner operations. Her newest book is, and TED Talk from TEDx, reflects her journey from immigrant roots in the Dominican Republic to her rise in the technology industry. Welcome to the show, Jalissa. How are you? I am great, Chris. I'm having a blast already, and we haven't even gotten started.

Yeah, let's just wrap it up now. We'll just stop at the top. We'll just stop at the top. It might not get better than this. No, it will get better than this. I think it will. We're going to hear more from you. Jalissa, give us your dot coms.

Where can people find you on the interwebs? Yeah, so latinamadrina.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn slash slash Julissa S. Hermosen. I'm also on Instagram at latina underscore madrina. Ah, I love the way you say latina. I like that accent that you do. Sometimes I'll sit and I watch Telemundo,

and I have no idea what anyone's talking about. I just love the juiciness of the language. Yeah, yeah, the language is so great. Yeah, it's so funny because we were like saying my company name, Mariposa Blanca, my name, Latina, Latina. I was like, Chris, this is a Spanish lesson for you. I know. We're just going to turn this into a Spanish show.

Yeah. We're just going to start. I told you I could count to 40 in Spanish. Should I just slowly do that and that'll be the show? No, I'm just kidding. We're not going to do that. All right. So give us a 30,000 overview of what's inside your new book.

Yeah. So I wrote a book. I've been in the tech industry for 25 years. I've had a longstanding career and there's so few Latina leaders in tech and in corporate that I just wanted to write a book to help the next generation, you know, give some insight into what's going on in corporate culture, how they can succeed. Some of the things that I've learned, you know, I just, I feel like I've learned so much and many times I've had to do it on my own.

And so I wanted to write a book to just document some of the things that I've learned, what's worked for me so that other Latinas, other leaders, other marginalized groups can have, you know, a blueprint, you know, and just let them know, you know, they're not alone in their journey. Yeah. Give validation to what, you know, a blueprint, you know, and just let them know, you know, they're, they're not alone in their journey. Yeah.

Give validation to what, you know, what they're going through and what they're feeling, but to also to compete to win. Compete to, to win. Cause competing to lose really sucks people. I tried it. It's really bad. It didn't work out. No.

And the ribbons, ceremonies, the medals they give you are awful. I got like a, I think I got tin can is the medal I got. Okay. It wasn't the gold or silver. It was the tin can. I've never heard of giving a tin can to anybody. I don't understand what that means. It was a really low budget Olympics that year.

Got it. I don't know. That's hilarious. So tell us a little bit about your upbringing as you do in the book, your journey coming from an immigrant family, et cetera, et cetera. How were you raised? Who are you? Well, we're going to need more than an hour, Chris, for that question, for sure.

But no, I, you know, I was born in my country in the Dominican Republic and to the U.S. with, you know, my parents. We emigrated to the U., you know, my, my parents, I, we emigrated to the US to New York. And, you know, my family, honestly, like hardworking immigrants, you know, and really lived the American dream, you know, you know, we lived in New York and then moved to the suburbs, they owned a home, two cars and raised a family of five. I'm really proud of my immigrant, you know, hardworking parents and our roots. And, you know, I really learned a lot about just working hard and, you know, wanting to achieve

things and wanting to make an impact. And I was always so self-motivated and driven. And so that led me to, you know, college and university and then to a career in tech. So I'm just really, really, really thankful for that. And like 25 years goes really quickly, which is crazy. I can't believe it. I know, doesn't it? It was last week when I was 25 years younger. Yeah.

It's true though. Me too, Chris. It feels like yesterday. It does, doesn't it? You know, people are like, I can't believe, you know, it's been 25 years. I feel the same way. Yeah, it's, and I'm only 25 now, so that's the problem. Anyway, I don't know what that means.

I don't think that's the problem. I don't think that's the problem at all. I think that's great. I think time is the problem, damn it. We need to fix that. We need to pass laws against time. Can you work on that, though? I will.

I'm going to call my lobbyists and see what they can do right away. You come from, what was it like coming here as an immigrant? And did you run into any sort of issues? You know, sometimes, you know, on any given playground as a kid, you know, the kids are mean to everybody, no matter who you are, it seems. You know, it's interesting because I grew up in Latin communities. So I felt very much at home with family, with extended family. And speaking Spanish was my first language. I know you can't tell, there's no accent, but Spanish was my first language. And I learned English through watching shows on television.

So I didn't really experience anything like discrimination within my community, but it was always a little bit when you go outside, you know, the community and how we as a family were treated differently. I mean, I remember, you know, when, you know, the home that our family home that we grew up in, you know, my dad was cutting down an apple tree, like some of the branches, because the wires were touching some of the phone wire. And he made a mistake, he, you know, cut it down and cut down the wire. And our neighbor really just spoke to him really harshly. And I just remember the look on my dad's face, gosh, I was trying to do something to help

my family and kind of protect you know the property and really respect you know talk to in a disrespectful way so things like you know kind of like small things like that you know going to the doctors and them not understanding our racial makeup and our culture and presuming that we're puerto rican versus dominican right and so things like that make you feel like, oh, you don't really get me. You don't really see me. But yeah, those are just kinds of experiences

that I just remember growing up. But I do love, I loved growing up in a Latin American, you know, town and speaking Spanish and, you know, kind of embracing our culture. That was really, really important to me. So I'm glad for that. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of embracing our culture. That was really, really important to me. So I'm glad for that. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of an interesting journey.

A lot of people have, a lot of immigrants get a really bad rap and they bring some of the most hardest working people to our country. Yes. They really buy into the American dream more than most Americans. Right. The American dream, the American scream, whatever. We don't get it. Whatever.

We don't care. We're born with a silver spoon in our mouth. But, you know, people come here putting their life on the line, expecting, you know, they want to take part of the American dream. And you've got to respect that sort of work that someone puts in for that because it can really you know it's a hard life they're usually moving from stuff that they have one thing that's always been interesting to me is sometimes they people who come here as immigrants will have what they call the closed-door policy slam the door behind them and so they they come here sometimes as as immigrants but then

they're like yeah I don't want more immigrants to come here. You ever seen that? Wow, that's, I have seen that, not necessarily in my family or in my circle, which is kind of ridiculous, right? Because we're all, you know, I mean, we all just want to make an impact in our lives and have, you know, great lives and better lives. But I'm really, I love what you said, because I think we need to change the script, right? We've got to flip the script on immigrants and really see how immigrants have made such an impact in this,

in this country, right? All the things. And it's not always easy, right? It's not always easy when you are American and a native English speaker. It's not easy if you don't, right? So there's things that you must overcome. Are you hearing that? Yeah, it sounds like a lawnmower or something. Yeah. So give me one second.

Sorry about that. I was going to say go throw something at him, but that's probably not a good idea. All right. So hopefully that will stop soon. This is what you call suburban life, Chris. Suburban life. Some things we can't control.

It's true. It's true. It's true. So you were saying about your life and immigrants and stuff. You know, it's funny. People complain about immigration. But actually, immigration is one of the most important things that contributed to our economy doing really well the past year. I agree. I agree.

I mean, that's what the Fed made that statement. They're like, they're a big part of the deal. You know, and it's really important. I mean, the future of our country, a lot of people don't realize a lot of countries are on the cusp of disappearing. Greece, Germany. Yeah. A lot of European countries are in decline. I was just looking about how, I think it was Italy, is in complete crash.

Like, they can't keep enough people on board and all that good stuff. It's the heartbeat of countries, right? I mean, look at Italy. They're giving tens of thousands of dollars to people to come and live in their beautiful small towns and villages because there are no young people, because there are no economic opportunities. So I agree. And then from a from a Latin perspective, you know, we are the largest ethnic minority group in the United States with almost 70 million Latinos. So we're you know, we're a really important demographic to look at.

Companies are creating products for Latinos. Organizations are marketing to Latinos. We've got an election. So the electoral vote is going to be, you know, really dependent on the Latino vote. And it's not in the hands of, you know, so politicians and policymakers need to really court this demographic. It's really important in many ways. You know, John Leguizamo, and I'm learning myself, I think, you know, we all need to learn about the contributions that Latinos have made in this country. I mean, Latinas are the demographic that are creating startups and small businesses at an incredible rate. I mean, outpacing Latino owned businesses and all kinds of, you know, own businesses. So, you know, we're contributing to the GDP, the Latino GDP is

the fifth largest compared to even higher than countries like France and, you know, the UK. So it's some of these things we just don't know. And honestly, even the Latino community doesn't know. So like, we need to flip the script and really have a good pride, a good pride in the achievements and, you know, the accomplishment is accomplishments of Latinos in this country and really flip that that narrative. And so I'm learning, too. I'm I'm I'm encouraged by the data and the stories. So, you know, with this book, I want to share my successes, you know, and some of my lessons. It's not always easy, right? And so I want to share that to encourage others because sometimes when you are from an ethnic group that has not really been accepted wholeheartedly and fully, you sort of feel like, gosh, I don't belong. No, we do belong. You know,

we're Americans. We belong in this belong. You know, we're Americans. We belong in this country. We're contributing to this nation. Yeah. That was a little bit of a diatribe, but I'm going to. It's funny. It's funny. We're tired of the high prices, but we don't want immigrants.

Well, the immigrants are doing the work that you don't want to do as Americans. And they're, you know, they're doing the hard labor and work and working in the fields and making everything cheaper. They're doing that. But also, you know, Chris, they are also going to colleges. Latinos are going to colleges at the highest rate and getting undergraduate degrees and graduate degrees. Like we don't talk about that. You know, we think about immigrants as just doing the jobs that nobody else will do, which I'll be honest, my parents did the jobs that nobody else would do. My mom was a seamstress in New York City when she first came here. And then she worked in a warehouse, you know, and my dad was, you know, a, what do you call those, those lift fork, you know, those truck, you know, the lift fork was, you know, a, what do you call those, those lift fork,

you know, those truck, you know, the lift fork drivers, I can't remember, in warehouses. So my, my parents did jobs that nobody else wanted. But in those days, they paid so that you can, you know, raise a family. So thank goodness for that. But we don't talk about, you know, Latinos who are achieving educational levels. We don't talk about Latinos creating businesses and jobs. We don't talk about the consumer, how we're spending a lot of money. Latinos are CEOs of the household. So I think we've got to have a balanced view. It's not just the jobs that people don't want. It's all the other things that are it's across the board like we're not a monolith yeah and and I like you inspire this what what are some of the stories that you talk about in your book maybe experiences working with Microsoft or other places where you know maybe overcome some adversity or some other different stories maybe you could tease out to us yeah I think you know

one of one of the things that I know like what I've grown up with in, you know, work hard, keep your head down and be humble that in a corporate job and like business career doesn't really work. You know, it doesn't really like when you're, when you're working with others who are touting their achievements. So I had to learn, I just was that mentality, but I had to learn, no, I've got to advocate for myself. I've got to speak up when I'm doing a great job. I've got to share that broadly. And that doesn't mean that I'm not humble. It means that I'm, I'm advocating for myself. I'm proud of my achievements and there's nothing wrong with, you know, talking about that in a way that is sharing the impact, you know, to the business. So that's one thing that I had to really overcome over time and be able to do that in a way that's, you know,

that really serves not just me, but the organization. So things like that, you know, I mean, there's so many, I just, yeah, I think, you know, that's something I definitely want to. What do you hope people come away with as they read the book? You've said a little bit of that, but what do you hope people come away with as they put the book down and they reflect on it? Yeah, I think for me, Chris, even though I had people in my life who cared about me as a human being and mentors and sponsors, I didn't really have a madrina,

somebody that looked like me, someone that I respected in a leadership position, that someone that understood my journey. And so I never had that. So I wanted to, I wrote this, and the feeling that I want people to leave with is that they're not alone in their journey because you know I worked in a predominantly male white industry and so I never really thought of myself as I'm a woman doing this job I'm a Latina and I'm I'm the only in the room I always felt like any space I entered I belong there I just never felt like I did it until someone points it out, the difference, until someone kind of makes a comment like that I am different. And so I was like, gosh,

I thought it belonged, you know what I mean? And so I want people to take away from this book that I understand their experiences. I've been through some hard things, just like they may be experiencing too, but I want to give you what I've learned. So I just want, I want whoever's reading this book to feel less alone, you know, marginalized groups, Latinas, people of color, people who have disabilities, right? People who are, you know, marginalized. So I just want, want everyone to, to feel like they're, they're seen and heard.

Yeah. You know, that's the one element we talk about in the chris voss show about stories stories of the owners of annual life they're they're we are the sum total of the stories that are alive really i mean if you took away all my stories and i don't know i'd just be sitting around going duh but you know knowing that we're not alone knowing there's other people that have taken the journey and figured it out and they've got a roadmap, the blueprint, maybe they can help the rest of us out, can make all the difference. Talk to us about some of the stuff you, services and products you provide on your website. Yeah, yeah, happy to. My company, Mariposa Blanca, I do business strategy consulting. So I help organizations with their partner ecosystem strategy,

software companies think about, you know, how do they go to market with their products with with a partner ecosystem and build that out. So that's been super fun and super cool. And it's, you know, something I did at Microsoft and Salesforce. So I bring that expertise to my consulting practice. I've, you know, I'm on a book tour now. That's why I'm on your show. So this is, you're so much fun. And so, yeah, so I'm on this book tour. And yeah, so I've been doing speaking engagements,

keynotes, author, fireside chats, and doing that. So I'm a speaker. And then I do career coaching. And so I'm looking into doing, you know, courses, but I've been doing career coaching, you know, essentially all of my all of my career. So that's another another element. And then we'll see. We'll see where this journey takes us.

Right. So I'm open to all the possibilities that are presented, which has been really a lot of fun. Where this journey takes us. Yeah. So you offer keynote speaking courses courses in coaching, business consulting. People can reach out to you, work with you, and find out how things work. And then they've got the book. So they've got that as well.

What do you, do you normally work with people? On Amazon, the book. On Amazon or wherever fine books are sold. And please, if you buy it, please put a review. My goal is 100 reviews, Chris. 100 reviews in 100 days. So that's my goal. Do it to it.

Get those reviews out there. So that'll do it. Those are always good for moving to book. Who is your prospective client out there that might be listening? Are they people that are Latina? Or is it anybody? Is there any sort of target market that you're after? So this book, really, like the audience for this book in particular was written for Latina leaders in tech.

And also I wanted to, so that's the audience. But the secondary audience was, is anyone in the C-suite in corporations that want to understand the experiences of Latinas. So those are the two people like when I was writing, I was writing to Latina leaders, but I like broadly want them to be like, you know, kind of, I don't want to say a fly on the wall, but a little bit like a fly on the wall so that they can, you know, kind of see the experiences, right. And because there's so, there's a few Latinas in the C-suite, less than one percent. So that's the audience. But what's been interesting is that this message in this book has resonated across all genders and all ethnicities and so many allies, you know, so many, you know, white males males so many people that look like you chris have reached out and and has yeah you are you are you are here

profile me like that you don't even you don't even know my pronouns i'm just teasing that's true that's right i guess i should have asked. I should have asked first. No, you're fine. We're fine. It's so true. But, yeah. A little love around here. Thank you. And it's resonated. Yeah. So, yeah.

It's resonated. For sure. Yeah, there you go. Work is to inspire people, make life a better place, all that sort of good stuff. And what do you see the future of what you're doing? Is there any other books maybe you're working on or maybe some courses or something with your working i mean you're like you said you're focused right now on promoting the book but anything else in the future coming up yeah i think you know the book just came out i spent a year writing it and so just

launched september 15th the first day of hispanic. So yeah, it's all in on the book tour and promoting. I've been doing speaking engagements at different companies. So that's been really great. I've got the dreams, my TEDx, I recorded it. That's going to drop this fall, fall, you know, so that'll launch. But I have other things that I want to do. I definitely, you know, I've got a couple of books, I think in me, maybe, but that won't probably be till, you know, start writing for a while. I'm going to let this, this one breathe. And, but yeah, there's other things that I want to do and grow my business, grow my consulting practice, grow my speaking, you know, speaking engagements and keynote speaking. And then, yeah, we could look at courses. I really want to see what the demand looks like first,

right? I wrote this book because it was a demand. People were coming to me for input advice and, you know, it's, oh, you're the first Latina leader I've ever met. I want to talk to you. There's so few. So I was like, let me document some of the things. But I think the future is bright and I'm going. Let's see where the journey leads. I'm excited about it. It's been so much fun. It's exciting. Yeah.

People need to see leaders that people identify with and, hey, if they can make it, I can make it too. It's really important. And I think you're going to inspire a lot of people with it. As we go out, give people a final pitch to pick up your book and all that good stuff and reach out to you, of course, on your website. Pick up the book. Pick up the book or else. Buy the book on Amazon. You won't regret it.

No, I'm kidding. No, but seriously. If you don't, you will. And if you do, thank you. You know, I think we all can learn from each other. I'm learning from people who look like and are different from me every single day. I follow people on social that are neurodivergent. I want to learn from that community because I have people that I care about that are neurodivergent.

And I'm certainly not an expert. So we can all learn from each other, pick up the book, learn about the Latino community, Latina leaders, some of the things that we go through. And if you enjoy it, give a five star review on Amazon. And if you have an organization where you want me to speak at, I'm happy to have conversations around that. And we can do book signing and add you to the book tour because I've got some openings in november december and 2025 so that's my pitch how was that how did i do i like that pitch i love it you're set up for 2025 isn't it amazing yes did you know that next year on january 1st 25 years from Y2K 2020? Or 2000? I have COVID.

Yes, gosh. 25 years from that Y2K thing. I kind of want to cry a little bit. That's insane. You know what I mean? Like, my stomach just turned, Chris. Like, what in the world? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to scar you.

We try to do that on the show. Trying to scar our guests. We've triggered a guest call. Call 911 or whatever number you're supposed to call. That's so funny. Yeah. Read the book, folks. You'll feel better.

So thank you very much for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. I love your first name, Julissa. Thank you so much. It's just like a whole juicy mouthful of juicy fruit gum sort of. I always tell people it's Julie and Melissa. Like they're not sure how to pronounce it. But yeah, I love my name too.

And coming in from LinkedIn, Mark Wen. Thanks, Mark. Ultimately, we're all immigrants in North America. That's the ironic thing about the whole stupid thing about immigrants. Like my great-grand grandfather came here from Germany. It was like two generations or something like that. Three generations. I flunked second grade, so I can't count.

But I can count second. I'll be in Germany in a couple of weeks, by the way. Okay. Just stay away from swastikas and Hitlers and stuff like that. But we left before the 1800s. I should make that note so no one writes me. We left before all that war crap started. That's probably why it started

or something. I don't know. But yes, thanks Mark for pointing that out. Ultimately, we're all immigrants and they are what made this country great. I mean, it really did. There is no, and I talk about this ad nauseum on the show. The audience is going to do it again. But, you know,

there is no one person who has their thumb on all the good ideas no matter how much elon musk likes to think he does he he does not and no one does and so being able to have a wide base of people that are bright smart can learn love this country for the the the the freedom that it gives and the power that it gives and having people live there live their fullest and you know they're not limited to you know like communism it's like you get your paycheck whether you do the work or not you know you know you're you're paid using direct proportion to the contribution you give to other people

and helping other people prove the quality of their lives. And, you know, you look at, you look at the iPhone, the iPhone, Steve Jobs, dad was an immigrant from Syria.

Yeah. I mean, what if they never let him in the country? Exactly. We'd still be on Blackberry. No. Oh gosh. That's yeah.

We'd have micro, we'd have Microsoft Windows phones. Sorry, I like to... I had a Windows phone. I had several Windows phones, but yeah. We reviewed Windows phones. I just like to pick on... Who was the CEO after Bill?

Oh, Balmer. Balmer. These iPhones are never going anywhere. These are stupid. Yeah. I love that bit of him. We reviewed several Windows phones. We actually liked them.

They were really good phones. I loved my phone when I had them years ago. I wish they hadn't given up on them. I thought they were pretty good phones. They had, like, Sony cameras and stuff. It was all about the app store at the time. It was, yeah. And, I mean, it was such a great thing.

But, you know, Windows has got computers. They got that. They're hurting for money. I think Microsoft is doing well. Anyway, thanks for tuning in, everyone. We certainly appreciate it. Thanks for Julissa to come with us on the show. Go to goodreads.com, 4chesschrisfast, linkedin.com, 4chesschrisfast, chrisfast1,

the TikTokity, and all this crazy place on the internet. Be good to each other or else I'll come over there. Don't make me stop the car. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time. Thank you, Chris.