The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Leading to Thrive: Mastering Strategies for Sustainable Success in Business and Life by Klaus Kleinfeld

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

Leading to Thrive: Mastering Strategies for Sustainable Success in Business and Life by Klaus Kleinfeld https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Thrive-Mastering-Strategies-Sustainable-ebook/dp/B0DKXTS8V9 1st Place Winner of the 2024 Digital Book Today Award in the Business category 1st Place Winner of the Literary Global Book Awards in the Business - Motivational category Finalist of the American Writing Awards in the Business - Management & Leadership category Gold Award Winner of the Literary Titan Award in Leadership category Runner-up of the New England Book Festival in Business category Good news for today’s business leaders. And tomorrow’s… Success in both your business and personal lives is possible. You don’t have to choose one over the other. Leading to Thrive shows you how. Klaus Kleinfeld draws on decades of global business experience from large scale to startups across a wide range of industries. He reveals how to win both the Outer Game of business success and the Inner Game of personal fulfillment. Leading to Thrive charts a transformative path of preserving and recovering your energy, achieving balance, and finding true purpose and meaning. It then goes into showing how to build an inspiring vision, create competitive advantages, and develop world-class teams. Filled with real-world advice from one of the world’s most experienced business practitioners, Leading to Thrive is a must-read for every business leader aiming for sustained success in business and in life.About the author Dr. Klaus Kleinfeld is the only leader to have successfully served as CEO of two Fortune 500 giants on different continents: Alcoa in the US and Siemens in Germany. With a nearly forty-year career spanning multiple industries, from established businesses to tech startups, he has advised US presidents and global leaders across Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. As the founder of K2Elevation, he invests in North American and European tech and biotech firms. Actively engaged in private sector, public affairs, and cultural boards, Dr. Kleinfeld, a dual US and European citizen, enjoys work, life, and family near New York.

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Because you're about to go on a moment. monster education roller coaster with your brain now here's your host chris voss i'm folks voss here from the chris voss show dot com well ladies and gentlemen welcome the big show as always when they are ladies seem to that makes it official because it wouldn't be official unless i sung it for the first i don't know 14 years or something like that welcome to 16 years of the chris voss show 2 500 episodes and boy am i tired or you think i would be talked out after 25 episodes you think my voice to be like, enough with this crap, but no, we're going to double it, triple it, quadruple it, and I'm getting tired now.

Go to goodreads.com, Forrestes, Chris Foss, and help sustain me, or for your family, friends, and relatives at Facebook.com, Fortress, Chris Voss. LinkedIn.com, Forrest S Chris Voss. Oh, those are the crazy places you can find the better-looking Chris Voss, as it were, the one there doesn't have as much of a resting pitch face. Anyway, guys, we have an amazing young man on the show. We're going to be talking to him about his wonderful book here. It is entitled, Leading to Thrive, Mastering Strategies for Sustainable Success in Business and Life.

Out November 12th, 2024, Clause Kleinfeld joins us on the show. We're going to be talking about his insights. Of course, my favorite topic, as you guys know, leadership and all that good stuff. Chris is going to talk about leadership again. What kind of podcast is this? I think we were like top 50 on Goodreads or good pods or something. I just saw that today. So we're like up there top 50 out of 100 of top business management to podcasts.

Anyway, before I segue any more, Dr. Claus Kleinfeld is an international manager, investor, and entrepreneur. He is a founder and CEO of K2 Elevation, a company then invests in and develops international enterprises in the technology and healthcare segment. He's a co-owner of, let me see if I can get this right, allergen, son. USA, chairman of Conucks and chairman of Fernride, a member of the supervisory boards of Brain Lab, gray orange, feral labs, as well as advisory partner at EMH partners from 2008 to 2017. He was the chairman, the CEO of Alcoa Arconic. Previously, he had a 20-year career with Siemens, where he ended up serving as CEO of Siemens AG until 2007. He's been an advisor to several U.S. presidents, as well as European, Asian, and Middle Eastern government leaders.

Welcome to the show. Claus, how are you? My pleasure, Chris. Love it to be with you. Our pleasure as well to have you. Welcome to the show. Give us to your dot coms. Any place you want people to find you on the interwebs, please, sir.

Yeah, LinkedIn is a good place to start, and then there's a website where you also find some more parts on my book leading to thrive.com. And you find a way how to connect with me directly. So give us a 30,000 overview. What's inside this book? Well, if you would have asked me three years ago, Klaus, will you ever write a book on leadership? I would have said the last thing I need is to sit more behind my desk, you know. But what then happened is a couple of things happened. I saw a number also of young leaders actually struggle big time and almost get killed in the process of leading companies, bringing companies up. And I said, I have to put down in writing my conclusion.

on 30 plus years of running something. So this is a very different book. I think you've read it, you know, Chris. And it has literally only two large chapters. One is called the inner game and the other one is called the outer game. The outer game is typically what people talk about when they talk about leadership. You know, how do you build your team? What's the strategy?

How do you build competitive advantage? You know, how do you manage for efficiency? What's the situation with your board? How do you find talent and all that stuff? That is in there and I think juiced up with a number of funny or not so funny stories of life that I share. But I start with the inner game because my experience, and what is the inner game? The inner game is, you know, how do you manage yourself? How do you get yourself energized every day in the game, show your best game, lead people, bring people together?

Because I've seen that many people, including myself at a younger age, you know, were not having the right frame of how to. do it. You know, there's a lot of changes that have happened in business management and business leadership. It seems like, you know, for a long time, we kind of have that Peter Drucker. Is it Peter Drucker? Yeah. The Peter Drucker sort of, you know, you do it my way or the highway sort of thing, you

know, do it my way or get fired. Now it seems like a lot more of leadership is kind of empathetic leadership. It's encouraging people to bring out the best in them, make them feel like they're involved in something that's bigger than them. And it seems like there's more, I'm not really sure what the word is right now, but there seems to be more of that going on, where it's more like just trying to bring out the best in people instead of holding a gun for them, going, do good or where else? Yeah, I think, look, I mean, I believe leadership will always be about performance, you know, And so I'm coming from the point of how do you get a better performance of yourself as well as then have the capabilities to get performance than others. I do think, however, that this dichotomy that people see and, hey, you know, take good care of yourself or work on the performance is the false dichotomy.

In truth, I think this is the same function. You can only perform very well as a leader. sync with yourself at least for sustainable time you know i mean yes you can you can push yourself until you hit the wall and i've seen that multiple times you know but if you want to sustainably perform you have to manage yourself well and also keep in mind you know you only have one life on this planet and it's not just about the business of business but it's also about what you do in your life i've never seen this other false dichotomy as hey you know uh work life balance balance I mean, if your work isn't part of your life, then there's something wrong with it.

So I think I think that was also one of the reasons why I wanted to write the book, because I felt that what you just said, I mean, people feel that sometimes it's more about these softer aspects, and I don't consider them the soft aspects. I consider them probably the hardest aspects if you want to get to top-notch performance. And unfortunately, they are very often coined as a soft one, but if you, if you boil down to it, I mean, to understand how do you gain energy? And people around, I've made mistakes like this. I've beaten my team, you know, to come to a solution well after midnight. We came to something.

I woke up the next morning, looked at what we came to, and I threw it away. And I said, what crap is that? We're not going to implement such crap. You know, we're going to, we've now all had slept, you know. We're going to get back into the room and come out with something better than that, you know. So, and then the question of what is energy? How does that work? And I wanted to provide this framework, happy to talk about that.

Let's get into it some more on the framework and laying that out, because I like how you've separated that into the inner game and the outer game. So many business books are like, you know, how to boss your employees around. And, you know, I talked to so many CEOs, and I always ask him, I go, what would you say, what would you say your style of management is? Or what style of leadership would you say you utilize? or what is your format to use? I believe in the end what's the definition of leadership is a great leader in spite of values is the one who makes people do what the individual wants them to do at the time that he or she wants them to do this.

That is what makes a great leader. Sometimes the stuff that the leader does is not really a great thing for a lot of other people. But we should not shy away from admitting that and seeing what, because we don't have to follow that path. We can choose whether we want to be part of it or do something else. That was my point before, make work and life coming closer together. So my leadership style has always believed that the only sustainable competitive advantage that companies have is the quality of the people and the way they work together. you know if you have great and the world has been changing and it's changing more drastically now if you think that you can form a detailed strategy that that captures what happens every day

yeah you know what wake up the reality is not like that you have a you have almost like you a flight on a flight to Tokyo I'm saying Tokyo because I've been there a number of times just in the last weeks you know a flight to Tokyo from New York 14 hours you know 14 hours I mean the plane is of course 90% of the time but The course is set, Tokyo, so the north star is clear, and it lands, actually, in this case, not only on time, but a little earlier. The Japanese, they are great on this, you know, so, but during this time, you have winds coming in, you have to change altitude because of weather conditions, and all of this happens, you know? Yes, but the true north never goes away, you know? So, and in the end, I do believe also that I have to look for talent, get the right people on board, you know, for and form a high performance team.

and hopefully have everybody understand what it takes to have sustainable performance, you know, and build your own energy level highly up. Yeah. And the energy level and the insight game that you talk about is, I think, really important. You know, when you're not straight with yourself, it's really hard to do what you do. And then you also mentioned, too, if you don't really love what you do, it's hard to deal with it and do well. you know for most of my you know we talked about this before on the show for most of my life i didn't do any work that i really was had a purpose for and enjoyed i was just an investor going uh you know whatever and people will come into me they'd be like oh it's so great that you do

what you love you know and and we had multiple companies and i'm like i would sometimes i i just feel like i got stabbed in the heart i'm like i don't love any of this i hate this i i'm just doing it for the money and I'm the CEO and, you know, and I'm doing it from the investment of it, but I really don't like doing any of this. Like, I hate this business. That must be where the vodka came from. And, you know, that probably speaks to your energy level and taking care of your body and your health.

I imagine you get in that in the book. So let's get to the energy frame, you know. So first of all, let's say it's not about time management. It's about energy management because in the end, you know, as I've been pushing for, for something and basically being burned out, it doesn't get to the right results. The energy, you know, you wake up in the morning, hopefully you're relatively refreshed,

you have decent energy. So what are the four sources? There are only four sources of energy that a human has, you know, so the first one you touched on is physical. What is physical? You have to work out, move your body, eat well, you know, to hydrate, you know, sleep, you know, and kind of keep yourself and eat well, you know.

So that's reasonably well on, You know, the second level of energy is basically, I split it into its body, mind, and soul. So that's on the mind side, I split it into emotional and mental. The emotional side, that's already where the problem starts. You know, many people don't understand. They basically think the emotional side they cannot control. And truth of the matter, all good leaders control their emotional energy by not letting other people drain them. You know, you can select your environment.

and what the fundamental understanding is, you know, the emotion is in you. It's created in you. Given that, you have control over the emotion. So you can train yourself that you do not allow certain people to trigger you. And there are a couple of tricks how you do that. Breathing is one, you know, just simply not paying attention is another, you know. Then the other thing, the other thing that's not understood on the biggest emotional energy level is love. The biggest at all of mankind is love. So many people tell me, yeah, but I mean, if I have a love

crisis, you know, I can't control it. But what people don't understand is that you can create a loving feeling for you if you show gratitude. If you show gratitude, it instantly gives you an emotional gratification. So there are a number of those tricks around. So that's emotional energy. Mental energy is even easier. Mental energy is this, what do you focus on? I mean, in today's media world, in the past we were used that as one news probably every week. Today we have five or ten, whatever, you know, and you can't even catch up with this and you kind of like, ah, you know. But the question is, what do you focus on? You know, and I always tell the story to make it here of this old shoemaker who has two sons, you know, and he wants to pass his business on.

He doesn't know which sons to give it to, and he sends the one son to the east coast of Africa, the other one to the west coast. The one on the East Coast sends a note bag and says, Father, I have very bad news. There's no market here. Everybody goes barefoot. The other one sends a notebag and says, Father, send me as many shoes as you can get your hands on. The market here is endless.

Everybody goes barefoot. But it's a classical case of focus. What do you, mental energy is all about focus. And literally every good leader has a way to purposefully change their focus and look at something where when normally people say this is good or bad, a great leader would immediately look at

what is the counterposition to that? What else do I see? Do I see an opportunity? Or do I see a challenge? And what do I do with it? That's on the mental energy side, you know? And there are also other things where I know, I mean, I can give you a guaranteed way

how to have an unhappy day. You know, one happy day goes like this. You use the element of stagging. Now, the sun is shining here in New York today. You know, I'm looking out my window here, beautiful late afternoon here. But the last days, it was gloomy, rainy, and cold. So you get out in the morning, it's dark. Oh, it's a dark day.

The next thing happens, your coffee doesn't taste as it's supposed to, oh, my coffee is bad. Next thing is your spouse is going to say something wrong. Or your dog is not going to whack the tail. And so you stack it up. By the time, it's 80. o'clock and you really start taking all the calls you know you are already in a very bad mood and you're very drained you know so and to fight this you can actually flip this around and do it in the

other do it in the other direction and also look at the good things that you have that you have a nice home that there's no war going on outside so turn it around so that's on the mental side and lastly the fourth level of energy or the fourth type of energy is spiritual energy and we don't talk about that at all in business. But in life, we need to talk about that because it is an unbelievably powerful level of energy. And I think a lot of people today shy away from at least trying it out, you know, and they feel like, oh, this is a life's decision and God knows, God knows, we don't know whether God knows, you know. So my take is, you know, try it out for yourself, you know, and I'm not agnostic to any, I would not recommend anything, but

try out to get some connection to your spiritual energy from own experience I can say in my darkest times this was what really helped me get through here you have me get through so and the last thing I would say you mentioned this on purpose you know purpose is this very odd concept interestingly purpose has been a debate of mankind as long as mankind has been around because it is about the question why are we here what are we for the ultimate question that every Everybody at certain points in time always, what am I doing? Why am I here for? And the most interesting thing is purpose does to energy what a laser does to light.

So it basically takes a laser takes light and condenses it and then, you know, makes it a very, very strong force. Purpose is this thing that does the same thing to energy. A diffuse energy comes together. You wake up in the morning, you know, you want to do these things, you want to achieve these things. and you say, my God, it's great. Another day, I don't mind whether it's dark outside. I get out, you know, and I get moving. I have another day to work in this direction to achieve this in my life, you know.

That's what purpose does. And by the way, in most cases, people are looking for the one purpose. And it's not, in my view, not the one purpose. You have multiple roads in life, you know. You might be your father, you know, you have a business or multiple businesses. And you have different things that different per piece, so to say, that you want to achieve, you know. But look for it, reflect on it, and find it because it is, it literally powers you through. So that's basically around the energy.

Well, I love that you delve into the, you know, it's almost like in talking to you about being a CEO or a leader, it's almost like being an Olympic coach. You know, you've got to have the outer game. You've got to have the muscles and the strength and whatever you've built to do whatever you're doing in Olympic sports. or something, but you also have to have the head game. Exactly. And if you don't have the head game, you can be about as strong as you want. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And you know, I remember finally finding, you know, the podcast is the one thing I found is my purpose and of my love. I love collecting stories. I love sharing stories. I love hearing people's stories. I'm a story collector. And so

it makes a whole difference in your life when you find your purpose. And then to also reiterate what you said, You talked about how gratitude is such an important point. You know, I've learned sometimes through my darkest moments, the hard way of this, is that gratitude is so important at re-grounding you at making you not get lost. And, you know, like we were talking about, all that minutia of crap that can go on in a day. And so I have something every Sunday called Gratitude Sunday.

And I started this during COVID because I lost. a lot of money during COVID. We used to do a lot of events with the podcast. We would go out and interview CEOs at big shows like CS and different things. And we just watched everything disappear overnight with COVID. And so, in fact, it's called Gratitude for Gratefulness Day. That's what my Sunday is every Sunday. And so I spend my Sundays focused on being grateful.

And, you know, and I did that during COVID. I did that during the 2008 Great Recession when I lost. all of our companies. And I just found that by sitting down and going, what do I have? What are my assets? What do I have? And what should I be grateful

for? And it really helps re-center you and give you a foundation to work from. And also to help you realize that, you know, your life isn't that bad off sometimes, you know? Totally. Totally. I mean, I have in my, I have a

long chapter on purpose, because I feel that many people have thought about it, very smart people have thought about it. And I think I want to give a little guidance to what do other people's things. But the one chapter that I always get chills of is the one there is a study on what do people say on their last breath, on their deathbed, right? And it is really shocking, you know. Nobody there says, I wish I had spent more time behind my desk or in the office. There's not one single person that says that.

That's important to note, even for CEOs, you know. So maybe even more for CEOs, you know. But what they do say is things like, I wish I had allowed myself to be happier. You know, and that sentence alone, you know, has a lot of wisdom in there because on their last breath, they suddenly realize that happiness and the emotion is in themselves, in themselves. not not from the outside it's in themselves you know you don't want to wait until last last day and the other one that also i get chills from is it goes something like this i wish i hadn't listened so much to what others want and had allowed myself to be more me

you know and but the implication of that is a little bit more complicated because a lot of people avoid this internal debate with what are the voices in my head who am i because Because a lot of times, I mean, we have these things that go on, the body, the mind gives you some stuff all the time and hopping around their gazillions of monkeys. Some of these monkeys are not yours. And I think it's a really worthwhile exercise to sort out, you know, oh, this thought, you know, that's an interesting thought, you know. Is this really a thought that I believe in or has somebody kind of viciously put that in my mind? It might be parents. It might have been a teacher.

It might have been a friend, you know. and you somehow, it crept in, and it wasn't helpful. It actually probably held you away, you know, or make you fearful of certain things. I think that's an exercise that what I would very, very much, very much recommend to everybody. Just establish this. I call it the pilot in the head, so to say. When you have these thoughts coming out and say, is this really me? Is this my thought?

Is this really me? Well, I have about six voices in my head. One says, kill, kill. The judge says I can't use that anymore, but it's a callback, Joe. in the show. But, you know, I get one of my six ankle bracelets off next week, so that's always good. I got a whole collection off the leg. I should do a picture of that on chat, GPT, and make me anything. I love that. I just like that joke. I don't know why.

Anyway, when you walk around, you clank, that would be funny as hell. I got to make a picture of that. Chris Voss was six ankle bracelets on. But no, I mean, you know, I like, I like how you're, it seems like A lot of the stuff you've talked about in the book and here today has an introspection value where you're advising leaders to be introspective. Like I say, I ask a lot of leaders, you know, what's your leadership style? What's your, what's your functions that you utilize on a daily basis in your toolbox? Like, I don't know. I just been, you know, and they do obviously have some sort of successful mechanisms that they're repeating.

You know, they're like a, they're like a great basketball player, but they don't really, it's become so well practiced, they don't really think about it anymore. And then the problem is sometimes when that system doesn't work anymore, they start to fail and they're repeating the same failure mechanisms. I'm like, why am I failing now when I used to, this used to work? Correct. Yeah. Yeah.

So having that introspect is really good. What else should we talk about that we can tease out to get people to pick up the book? Look, I mean, one of the things that people struggle with very often is how do I build a great team? How do I find talent? How do I build a great team? You know, and I mean, let's probably start with talent, you know. I mean, talent, I've always looked at talent from, I mean, what is, I looked at it from a perspective of, I call it the T-shaped leadership model. And basically what I mean with the T-shaped is the T-parts is the commonalities that are needed for

leaders, which is communication skills, analytic skills. you know and and and probably some some mental toughness you know so this is on the horizontal side on the on the on the vertical side it's what I call the legs to stand on you know next to stand on and and what I always look at in a profile I don't I mean here in the US it's so customary that you either are a lawyer or have an MBA and then that kind of qualifies you for leadership position but But it's also great that in some cases, this more general education, I saw a Besson this morning, and I didn't know that he studied history, you know, and then became an investor, you know,

so it's great, you know. But that caters to what I feel is I always look when I get a profile, I always look, how well is the T balance? Because the horizontal things, in most cases, you can teach a lot of the horizontals. You know, I can teach on the communication side, you know, analytics I probably can't teach so well because it's very highly related to intelligence, general intelligence, you know. But what I also look in, you know, how many legs does a person have to stand on? Are these just small legs or are these deep legs?

And I'd rather look at the depths because when I see someone, you know, I once hired somebody who told me that he spent years in Tibet looking at the practices of months and had no business degree, but he was actually an engineer, you know. and I hired him and he was a great success, you know, because he showed me after this, what he learned from this, how deep he went into something. And I'm sure, you know, that during this time, the three years, he had moments when he wished he would be somewhere else, you know. But I see somebody drills through a big, big, what's it called, big plank, you know,

drills through a big plank, you know, or rather shallow, you'd rather keep shallow. The shallow things everywhere, I would not be happy with, you know. I want to see a profile where somebody shows that they have the tenacity, the willpower to drill deep, you know, and commit to something and get going, you know. So, so that I always look for talent. And then the other thing is you will only be able to keep talent if you differentiate, you know, every talent, and you know this, Chris, you're the same, I'm the same, you know, if talent has options, talent basically says, if I'm not getting treated right, if I don't see that my talent is, valued here. If somebody tells me, and I had that multiple times in my career where they considered me too young

to be promoted and told me, I mean, literally at one time, they told me that, hey, Claus, you have to adopt the taste of the stable or the smell of the stable, the smell of the stable before we can promote you. You know what? That's the moment when I knew I can't

continue in this position. I got to move on. The smell of literally. Get that on you. Yeah, I get that on you. Roll around. you smell like shit you don't smell enough like shit you know so exactly but that's one thing then on the on the team side you know the question is how do you make people work together and in reality there is tons of research that has happened on this and and that shows there's really five things that are important and all right them what's that you threaten them is that how you get them to work together

you threaten them with violence I'm just doing a joke I'm just too yeah that's another way to do it that's not what i was so is it because that's not really that's not really sustainable in the world you know and also if they are not around and they and you are in a mission where everybody's splitting up then you you are not having a gun to their head somebody hostage but you're getting into details now so but in reality what i meant is you first have to build trust you know if you don't you don't have a top team where you where everybody trusts each other you will not you will not have the foundation to build the high performance team. The second thing is

you have to establish a capability that everybody brutally criticizes what has been done in the previous mission on the dry run because others see things that you have done or you could do better and you need to make sure that the

power of the team is utilized and we can't afford political games where people are holding back what they saw because they feel that they don't want to want to confront another person. That implies also that an individual understands that if somebody says something about how you perform in a situation, this is not meant as personal criticism or taking you down. It's meant to increase the literal survival chance of the team, you know, the success

rate of the team. So that's the second, being able to have conflict. The third thing is commit. You know, to basically say, I'm in it. I'm in it at the fullest. I'm in it with my whole thing. The fourth thing is accountable, you know, not only am I in it, but I know these are the things that I'm supposed to do here. I am accountable for that things getting done. No discussion, you know. And the fifth thing, it sounds easy, is aligned around results. Interestingly, I've heard many, many times from leaders that they complain, oh, my team is not really doing the things that I want them to do. And then when I ask them, so do you tell them what exactly?

exactly you want to achieve. And I get a gobbled answer of 15 KPIs. You know, if nobody can follow 15 KPIs, you have to basically be clear, how many others? Maximum three probably, you know,

so, but then when you ask gets worse, when you ask the team members, you know, they don't even know. I mean, what is the critical one in a situation where you have to decide?

You know, let's say, is it growth? Is it cash? Is it profitability? You know, what is it? What is it?

You know, you have to be critical. still clear, like in sports, where it's clear what scores the point. That's what we need to do. And so those five things, trust, conflict, commitment, accountability, and clear on results, that's the magic literally on all high-performance teams. Building good teams, getting your life balanced together, getting your health together and stuff. I mean, it's everything. If you're not performing on the inside well, you're not going to perform in the outside well, which is, yeah, That's very true.

So as we go out, Clause, give people a final pitch out to pick up your book and any dot coms where you want them to find you on the interwebs. And they will find the book on Amazon, leading to thrive. They'll find it also in various versions from Kindle to Audible, from hardcover to paperback, you know, and hopefully you will enjoy it. And actually, the holidays are coming up. It's a nice gift. Get that Christmas. I just realized we're almost at Christmas. We started usually saying that.

I'm thinking gratitude. Thanksgiving. Give it to your family at Thanksgiving and then anybody you missed, give it to them for Christmas. So, yeah, I just forgot. We usually about this year when we have authors on, then we go, hey, you know,

you should get that for Christmas and stuff. Exactly. But, you know, smarter books you can give, I always tell, I think we do this on the show every now and then we say, here, for the show, family, friends, and relatives. I think in November we start saying that because, you know, you're going to have to spend Thanksgiving dinner with them,

so you want them to be smarter. So I have them listen to the show. Well, thank you very much, Claus. It's been wonderful and insightful to have you on the show. Thank you for coming by. Thank you very much, Chris, for having me. Thank you for coming. And thanks for all right for tuning in.

Order up his book, wherever fine books are sold. Leading to Thrive, Mastering Strategies for Sustainable Success in Business and Life. out November 12th, 24. Thanks for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, for your family, friends, and relatives. You know, go and knock on some doors

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Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time. And that should have us out. Great show.