The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Little Treatments, Big Effects: How to Build Meaningful Moments that Can Transform Your Mental Health by Jessica Schleider

Episode Date: January 30, 2024

Little Treatments, Big Effects: How to Build Meaningful Moments that Can Transform Your Mental Health by Jessica Schleider https://amzn.to/3OnlfL8 If you've ever wanted mental health support but haven't been able to get it, you are not alone. In fact, you're part of the more than 50% of adults and more than 75% of young people worldwide with unmet psychological needs. Maybe you've faced months-long waiting lists, or you're not sure if your problems are 'bad enough' to merit treatment? Maybe you tried therapy but stopped due to costs or time constraints? Perhaps you just don't know where to start looking? The fact is, there are infinite reasons why mental health treatment is hard to get. There's an urgent need for new ideas and pathways to help people heal. Little Treatments, Big Effects integrates cutting-edge psychological science, lived experience narratives and practical self-help activities to introduce a new type of therapeutic experience to audiences worldwide: single-session interventions. Its chapters unpack why systemic change in mental healthcare is necessary; the science behind how single-session interventions make it possible; how others have created 'meaningful moments' in their recovery journeys (and how you can, too); and how single-session interventions could transform the mental healthcare system into one that's accessible to all.About the author Dr. Jessica Schleider is an award-winning researcher, clinical psychologist, and professor. She is the Founding Director of the Lab for Scalable Mental Health and an internationally-recognized leader in research on single-session interventions for youth mental health. Her professional mission is to build and disseminate scalable, evidence-based mental health solutions that bridge previously-unfillable gaps in mental health care ecosystems worldwide. Her work in this area has been featured in media outlets including The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and The Atlantic, and in 2020 she was chosen as one of Forbes' 30 Under 30 in Healthcare.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com.

The Great Old School of Ball. There you go, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the show. We certainly appreciate you guys being here. As always, we are the Chris Bosh Show. Families, the family loves you but doesn't judge you. At least not as harshly as your mother-in-law because she didn't like you anyway. We always have the most amazing authors, minds, billionaires, CEOs, you name it, White House presidential advisors.

The smartest people come on the planet, come on to this show. None of them are me, of course. That's why we have guests. And they tell us all about their amazing stories, their learnings, their education, their educating, all the educating they've been educating on. And they share it with you so you can improve the quality of your life and all that good stuff. Thanks to, I guess it's our New Year's resolutions, people. The show is up 300% in January.

So thanks to all the gym New Year's resolution people who are joining the show. If you get a chance to further show your family, friends, and relatives, go to goodreads.com. Forrest S. Chris Voss. Chris Voss won on the TikTokity. Chris Voss, facebook.com and all those crazy places. You know the drill with all the plugs. She is the author of the latest book to come out January 30th, 2024, which is today. The book is entitled Little Treatments, Big Effects, How to Build Meaningful Moments that

Can Transform Your Mental Health. And Jessica Slider is joining us on the show with us today to talk about her amazing book, her insights, and everything that went into it. She is a PhD and Associate Professor of Psychology at Northwestern University, where she directs the lab for scalable mental health. Assuming you have it in the first place. I have none of it. That bird flew a long time ago.

She completed her PhD in Clinical Psychology at Harvard University, her doctorate internship in Clinical and community psychology at Yale School of Medicine, and her BA in psychology at Swarthmore College. Swarthmore, yeah. Swarthmore. There you go. Say that three times really fast. Her research on brief, scalable interventions for youth depression and anxiety have been

recognized via numerous awards, including the National Institutes of Health Directors Early Independence Award, the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies, and the President's New Researcher Award, and Forbes 30 Under 30 in Healthcare. Welcome to the show, Jessica. How are you? Thanks so much for having me. I'm doing great. Excited for the book release today. you go congratulations lots of work and pain suffrage teeth biting of nails uh all that sort of stuff clawing against chalkboards uh but you're finally here you've finally made it to the published date so congratulations on the new book uh give us your dot coms where do you want people to find you on the interwebs yes uh My lab website is schleiderlab.com, S-C-H-L-E-I-D-E-R.com, but.org rather. Sorry about that. And there you can actually learn all about what our lab does in terms of building, testing, and sharing free mental health guides and tools, including several you can access on your own there. I'm also on LinkedIn, Twitter, or X, whatever you choose to call it. So those are the main places to find me. There you go. So do you think your book can help people? I'm

asking for a friend. Do you think people can help your book to have mental health problems like me? Wait, I said a friend, huh? That joke didn't play out right. Regardless of who the target is, yes, I do think so. There you go. It's probably more I should read it less and just be hit by it like a bad dog in a newspaper. Don't do that, folks. That's a joke. So give us a 30,000 overview of what your book is and what's inside of it. Yeah. So the rationale for writing this book for me was that our mental health care system is not working. It is not enough. Most people who need mental health support get nothing among those who do access support. This is not enough. Most people who need mental health support get nothing. Among those who do access support, this is actually surprising to most people, even in my own field, the most

common number of sessions or interactions with care that people get is just one. So most commonly, people are getting one session of something and then not being able to return because of financial problems or barriers, structural barriers, whole host of other things. So there's a real need to figure out how can we build supports that fit how people actually get care and that can actually get something to the many people who would otherwise get nothing. So that's where little treatments or single session interventions come in. And that's what I've been studying for the past,

however many years since my PhD times and what our lab is working to make more accessible to more people to fill in gaps in this system that really isn't serving everybody. There you go. So the little treatments, big effects, just opening a TikTok account, talk about mental health or how does that work?

Yeah, that's a great question, though. Like what is a little treatment? What counts? I think it's important to emphasize that I'm a scientist and something is not always better than nothing. And we can't take that for granted. There are a lot of unhelpful or even harmful somethings out there. So part of the book is helping the readers identify what are the components of a helpful single session intervention? How can I bring that about in my own life? And how can I seek out more of them so that I can receive help in small but meaningful doses at various points when needs arise. So I would argue that most things on TikTok are not evidence-based mental health interventions, but it's definitely possible, and our lab has worked on integrating single session digital tools into social media platforms.

So we can do that collaboratively, and I'm happy to talk more about how. But most of the content out there is not intentionally delivered for mental health treatment. There you go. I've seen so many coaches and not all coaches, but I've seen so many coaches and different people espousing mental health advice on TikTok that actually need it very much themselves. Well, we all at one point or another. I know. I try not to teach people about anything i don't really know about and certainly mental health isn't one of them my audience of 15 years is like he needs it it's over um my little treatments that my psychologist saw me after one visit was just

get a lobotomy and let's just get over with because this is too much work to do here. Let's give up. Monomies are not covered in my book. That's not what I'm recommending. Yeah, maybe the sequel, but probably not. Yeah. So give us a little bit of history on your background so people can get to know you better. How were you raised? What made you want to get into this field? Absolutely.

So I grew up in New York City. We're in a race in Manhattan, New York. And twofold are the reasons that I really got interested in this field and ended up writing this book. One was professional and one was super personal. The super personal one happened earlier in my life. And I talk about this in the book too. But when I was around 12 years old, I really got sick with an eating disorder. And it pretty much took over all aspects of my life really rapidly. Medical difficulties, mental health problems, you name it. My parents were, of course, super concerned. And they started looking for therapists for me. But therapist after therapist that they called, all of them had waiting lists that were months and months long. Not super helpful when you need treatment right now. They then looked and maybe

residential programs would be helpful. Maybe those are more accessible. They were, but they were also about $1,500 a day for treatment. And that's not reasonable for vast majority of the population. So I first encountered the inaccessibility of the mental health care system in middle school. And I dealt with that for years. About 15 years later, when I was in graduate school, I was still struggling with this because effective treatment was so hard to access. I signed myself up for intensive treatment again for my eating disorder. And it was in that treatment that like a chance encounter with another patient, they said something to me that just boom, hit me like a sack of bricks and helped me see things in a different way. Help me see

what I could do and my capabilities in a different way, which totally shifted the trajectory of how my recovery went after that. Was it Jack Nicholson as good as it gets where he walks in the room and he goes, what if this is only as good as it gets? And then he leaves. That kind of turning point is exactly what I experienced. Part of eating disorder treatment is you have these supervised meals where you challenge yourself to eat foods that are difficult for you. I did that. Somebody else who was also a fellow patient said, hey, what made you try that food today

that you said yesterday in group that you could never try? I said, I'm never going to be ready. So I decided, why not just do it? And she looked at me and she said, what if that's the whole thing? What if you just do that over and over again? Like you wake up, you do a thing that you think is impossible, but you're sure you can't. And then you just start again and try the next day doing the same thing.

And I thought she was ridiculous. Wouldn't have taken this long for me to get to this point. If that were true, that's over simplifying it. Then I thought about it more. And I was like, man, maybe she's right. Maybe I can do that. Just do a hard thing every day and see how that goes. And I started trying it and it completely worked. Wow. And not that was the sum of my entire recovery. Not that I did everything, not that I couldn't have also benefited from other treatment, but it meant something to me. That moment really mattered. And I got pretty fixated on how can we help people make more moments that matter earlier on in their treatment so they're not stuck for 15 years trying to find something that helps them. Sometimes you just need that little paradigm shift, maybe, or a little-

Exactly. Exactly. And in the book too, I talked to about a hundred people who've experienced these turning points in their mental health journeys, like moments that like shifted things for them in a really important way. This is a super common experience. And there are different themes that underlie why people have turning points and when they do. But long story short, if we can bottle what is most

common about those turning points within a single session structured intervention or treatment, we can help people heal faster, heal better, and maybe overcome some of the complexities of the system that don't allow people to get treatment in a timely manner. So you think that might be better than shock therapy? Because I know some people need some serious shock therapy. Shock therapy would not be my first line treatment suggestion, speaking as a clinical psychologist. But look, people are helped by all sorts of things. But the bottom line is most forms of treatment aren't accessible at all. So by creating things that can be broadly distributed, broadly disseminated, like a brief intervention, hopefully we can help more people and reach more folks who are having needs right now.

I was hoping to get you on board for shock therapy. I have a list that starts with members of my family, but I'll save that for later. So why do you think most current systems are built to fail? Is it cost? Is it lack of insurance or insurance support? Or is it people don't want to really deal with their problems? There are a billion and a half reasons, but I'll try to highlight some of the biggest ones that I've been able to identify. One is that we don't have enough therapists. We never will. If you look at a map of all of the healthcare provider shortage areas in the United States, there's data on this

on the Health Research and Services Administration website, but I'll summarize it. Most of the country is a mental health care shortage area, meaning that in most counties in the US, there aren't enough providers to serve everybody with mental health needs. In a lot of counties, there are enough providers, but they're all concentrated in cities. So folks in rural areas, out of luck in terms of finding a mental health care provider near them. If we magically doubled the number of trained professional mental health care specialists overnight, we would still fall absurdly short of meeting the need in the United States. So the current model of all treatment has to be delivered by trained professionals in clinics.

That's not going to work. Another big reason is that the insurance coverage is totally haphazard. There was the Mental Health Parity Act was passed in 2008 in the US, but even there are enough loopholes so that a lot of folks don't have good coverage of services that they would really want. Another thing compounding all of this is that psychologists like me, people developing the interventions that are supposed to help people, we've built these interventions that are on average 16 to 20 sessions long. They require people to come back again and again. But that doesn't match how people actually get treatment. Most of the time, just once, and on average, about three or four times before dropping out of treatment for a

variety of reasons. So our treatments don't fit how people engage with treatment. Our model of therapist delivered interventions isn't ever going to meet everybody's needs. And most people can't afford it anyway because of lack of insurance. So it's just a whole mess on top of another mess. And there's a real need for new ideas in how we can fill some of these gaps. People need to buy your book so they can get that local treatment. You explained it pretty well there. There's not enough help for people. I think you just, in the rural areas, I think you just explained red states and their crazy politics. America!

Do you think that, one thing we talked about during COVID with a lot of people on the show was, I think after COVID, this whole country needs to be assigned a psychologist. Everybody in it after surviving COVID. Cause I think that broke a lot of people's mental health. I'm not even sure I'm right after all of COVID. I wasn't right before. So I think we're pretty solid on that one. So do you think maybe we need,

we need, maybe we need a nationalized mental health thing for people where they can, didn't we used to. Didn't it. Wasn't it before Reagan or up until Reagan, we had a lot of sanitariums and local health things. I had teenage friends that I don't know if they were really going off the deep end or if it was drugs,

but they would get committed to the local asylum. Somehow I dodged all that. I saved my mental health problems till later in life. That's what I did. I'm saving. But I guess that all, there used to be a network of that and it all got taken apart by, I believe, the Reagan administration. Yeah. So that's actually something I go through in the first chapter of the book because the history of mental health care in the U.S. gives you a sense of how stigmatized it's been, how underfunded it's been, and how we never really gave it a chance to succeed because of how the

investments have gone with that. But you're absolutely right. There were asylums where people were committed. So kind of sight out of mind, that was the way of dealing. You're talking about Congress, right? Asylums that people are committed. That's a different category. They need to be assigned some psychiatrists, that's for sure, all of them. And the Reagan administration, you're right, went against those asylums and tried to push for community-based interventions. Problem is, they didn't fund those community-based interventions properly. So all the people who were in the asylums either weren't really getting the treatment they need in their communities or ended up in jail. And now jail is the largest mental health care system in the United States. And so we've ended up in this

situation where just because of chronic underfunding and stigmatizing people with mental illness and kind of putting it over there instead of integrating it with physical health care, it's gotten to a breaking point. And you're totally right about COVID. I think for a lot of people that made it a lot clearer what the gaps in the mental health care system were, because the needs were so much higher for so many folks. So it's definitely gotten more attention in recent years. But the problems are really old, decades, centuries old. Yeah, anxiety, depression, suicide rates are really high. I think still divorce rates are really high. I don't know if that's a issue of a mental breakdown or not, but I don't know. Maybe it is. So you talk about neuroplasticity and the single session mindset

for teens on how helping them work through anxiety and depression. And every time I put one, one of these teens up for adoption, so how does the, what is the neuroplasticity means? Yeah. So that's referring to how, like if you think about a single session intervention, I think the first question that comes to mind is what do you do in one session that could actually matter, that could actually make a difference. And our research in my lab has investigated this a lot. And we've figured out that there are certain common elements that single sessions tend to have when they're helpful. One of those common elements is teaching about how all of us, all humans are built scientifically, neurologically for change.

And neuroplasticity references the brain's ability. And in fact, the brain's constant desire to update itself, to shift and adapt to the environment that's around it. And that's how all of us are designed from an early age. We're absorbing tons of information and our brain is taking it in and adapting to the environment. That's how we learn to read. That's how we learn to socialize. All of it is based on the brain's constant ability to change. So in these single session interventions, a lot of them are online digital self-help tools. So they don't even require a therapist.

What we do first is we tell people about the brain and about its ability to change. A lot of the time, folks who are experiencing depression or anxiety or a different kind of mental health problem, they experience those symptoms, those difficulties as just part of who they are. I am depressed. That's just part of me. It's never going to change. That's just how I am. That pretty much cuts off all possibility of getting better. Because if you think this is just a permanent part of who you are and your personality, why even bother trying? So the first thing we do in these single sessions is teach people why changes a fact of life, including

the experience of depression or anxiety. Simply because of how the brain works, those symptoms, those difficulties you're experiencing are not permanent. They feel permanent because that's what depression does to you, but actually they're not. And that seed of hope that we can give people

by teaching them about a little bit of brain science is what we've seen be the most helpful component of these single session interventions, creating a possibility for change where before there wasn't one. So that's the crux of how we talk about neuroplasticity in our interventions. There you go. I use a whole roll of plasticity to cover my salad when I throw it in the fridge. That's always good. You're just rolling it up.

Maybe some of this can be help with the Neuralink thing from Elon Musk. What do you think about that? Maybe we can just download those updates you talked about. Just directly into your brain. So I'm a child and adolescent psychologist by training, and I would not suggest that as a youth-focused intervention. I would need to talk to some of my colleagues in computer science and engineering about that, but that's not what the book discusses. I'm just hoping he tests it on himself so I can get Twitter back and I can call it Twitter again.

Yeah, that would be fine. Go ahead and test it on yourself, buddy. Go ahead and take the bullet on that one. We know what happens with pioneers. They get the arrows. Now, you talk about SSIs allowing people to gain support. Tell us what those are. Sure.

So SSI stands for single session intervention. Okay. Single session intervention is too many syllables. So I made an abbreviation for the book because it's easier to digest and read. I had an SSI when it came back from Thailand, but we had some penicillin clearing it up, I think. Oh, good. I'm glad. It could stand for all sorts of things. But yeah, so we, in our lab, we've explored a bunch of different ways to help get people SSIs or single session interventions, moments of need

where otherwise they wouldn't be able to access anything. Like emergencies, maybe? Like emergencies, but outside of healthcare systems altogether. Normally to get mental health services of any kind, you'd have to go to a hospital or a clinic. And that isn't always possible if you're awake in your bed at 2am and you're just having a really rough time, you're nowhere near formal treatment at that point. So what we've done with our single session programs is actually embed them into online platforms like social media platforms. So that when people search for things like suicide or depression or therapy, our single session programs are offered to people on the spot. And this is called just in time intervention, a program that's offered exactly when people identify some kind of need for guidance or support. And through that, we've reached tens of thousands of people through social media platforms at their moments of crisis or moments of asking for help in some way for their mental health.

And that's what I mean by filling in the gaps of the system. Otherwise, those folks would be stuck with nothing. And they're kind of an emergency situation where they need help right away. And that's why you've on social media. Sometimes they're crying out for help. You know, you just ping them and go, hey, you okay there? You need a hug there, buddy?

What's going on? What do you think of telehealth? You talked earlier in the show about how a lot of stuff, rural areas don't have enough support and they're watching Fox News. What do you think about telehealth? Is that an effective way to get treatment?

Yeah, telehealth is fantastic. And I'm not glad, but relieved that the pandemic created an opportunity for it to become the norm. Because it was always an issue of difficulties with transportation, getting to the physical clinic where you could get treatment. So the fact that more therapists and more states are offering telehealth options for therapy is absolutely fantastic. At the same time, we have a shortage of therapists. So even with telehealth, there aren't going to be enough therapists to see everybody, even if 100% of folks decided to see a therapist over a Zoom session.

So it's a solution, but it's not going to fix the entire system on its own the good news is that data shows that telehealth uh based therapy versus in person just as effective so that's a great thing and i think we need to keep it it has to be here to stay and i think it is but we also need other things to fill in those gaps it sounds like we need something really big at like a macro level where we have a presidential ordainment or mandate or package deal, some sort of thing that says, hey, you try and make it so that everyone can get

maybe easier access to mental health or maybe have a national website where people can go to other than WebMD where you just go there and you just, every time I go to WebMD, I pull whatever my search is

and my conditions and like you were dead five days ago. And I'm like, that's not helpful at this point in time. WebMD causes a lot of problems. You're like, I have syphilis. Oh, wait, I just, I don't know. I had a headache. But maybe we need like a nationalized thing like that where. I think that's right. I don't have a public health system for mental health. And that's exactly what we need. When 50% of adults with mental health problems, and 80% of kids with mental health problems are accessing nothing for their difficulties. It's clear that we need to think more broadly than just traditional systems of care, we need to get more creative with how we're reaching people. And that's one of the ways I think single session approaches can be

helpful, both digital single sessions and single sessions that can be offered by non-professionals like peers, which I think is a really untapped and promising way of getting this support to reach more folks. It's an interesting thing because you can just go on social media and see a lot of people that need mental health. I think half the people listen to me know I think he needs some help. But that's why I do the show is so I can get free mental health. I get people like yourself on to give me ideas and great books to read and then I can try and fix myself.

So that's the whole reason we do the show is to fix. Some people grow up and become psychiatrists because they got to fix all their childhood trauma. I just do the show. And it actually does help. All jokes aside. What are some other things we haven't talked about you want to tease out to people in your book to pick it up? Yes. A lot of the single sessions that we talk about aren't just things that you have to go seeking out at a formal therapist's office, right? They're things you can do right now today. And at the end of the book, we include some, or I say we because I'm used to it, but I wrote the book. So I, in science, you always have like a million co-authors that you publish with because everything's a team effort.

So got to get into the author mindset, not the scientist mindset. Very true. Yes. But at the end of the book, I add some exercises and self-guided activities that are drawn from my lab's evidence-based single session programs that you can use over and over again. They're recyclable to take one small but meaningful step towards a direction that matters for you. Because ultimately, that's what single sessions are good at helping you do. They're good at helping you take the best next step for yourself, whatever that is, in whatever moment that you're in. And it doesn't matter what problems you're coming in with, what your baseline is, where you're starting off, you can always do something. And that's the main message of a

single session intervention. And these exercises guide you through different somethings that you can do that we've found in our studies and our research can actually be helpful. So far, the interventions that our lab has built have reached more than 50,000 people. Oh, wow. Our clinical trials, through social media dissemination, through community partnerships. And so these supports have been tested on lots of people. And the book is mainly another way to get them out to more folks who would otherwise not get anything, which is unfortunately a lot of people. There you go. 50,000 is a good start.

Now you just need to get the other, what's 350 million U. There you go. 50,000 is a good start. Now you just need to get the other, what's 350 million US Americans minus 50,000. I know, right? It's a big number for our academic group, but not in terms of population health, which is definitely the goal. So we're trying. I've got a little treatment, big effect.

I don't know if you put it in your book, but it falls in the category of self-accountability. And so you're listening to people. You think you need some mental health and your life's full of problems. I want you to go into your bathroom and take a marker right on the big, right in the corner of the mirror. It's me. I'm the problem. Just quote Taylor Swift.

That'll fix everything. Start with that. Start with that. Yeah, there you go and uh that it takes some self-accountability and uh you'll be surprised what kind of problems that fixes put a different spin on that though if it's you that's the problem it's you're the solution too right exactly yeah so we should do that as well see yeah that's why you're paid the big bucks and i get uh for this uh so yeah put that put that on the next category below the thing and uh fix yourself damn it it's that seems to be the biggest problem i see on everything

even though people have gone into therapists and run therapists around in circles for years that never get any help because they just go in there and they just run the gambit and lie to the therapist and blame everybody else. And you're just like, I know what you're doing in there. You're just putting on a show for the therapist and everybody else is crazy, but me, I'm just own it. Like I owned it a long time ago. I'm the crazy one, but that's what makes the show so great. So I just run with it. And the reality is a lot of the time, there are things in your environment that you totally can't control. It's not always all because of something that you did that you're experiencing distress.

And at the same time, even while all this stuff is going on around you, you can still take a step within your sphere of influence to do something that matters. So even if it is other people being terrible. Maybe that's true. But also you can do something for yourself to give yourself space from those people to help yourself engage in things that you care about. So both can be true. Just putting that out there. There you go. Yeah, there are some people. Just try and get those people in your life if you can. Don't keep those vampires, those emotional vampires around.

That always helps. And then friend some people on Facebook that need some unfriending. I find that helps my mental thing. In fact, you know what really helped my mental health recently? Because I hate those self-check-in things. I quit going to Walmart and now I have my groceries delivered. That thing improved my mental health like 25% never having to go to Walmart. Giving yourself so much more cognitive space.

Yeah. The lack of planning is huge, giving yourself time back. Exactly. And just not having to put up with everything at Walmart. So there you go. I hate self-checkout, can you tell? So give us your final pitch out, Jessica, as we go out for people to pick up your book and get to know what you're doing better. The mental health care system we have is not good enough.

And we need to get creative about figuring out how to make it better and how you can take steps in your own life to support your mental health in basically micro doses of therapy that are actually evidence-based. So I hope the book is helpful to folks. I hope it's thought-provoking and i hope it uh inches people closer to making the systemic change we need in the mental health care system there you go we need everybody take and pull their own boots up as you said there's not enough help out there and and so order up her book and then uh also do that mirror thing and put both parts like she said on them um because honestly a lot of it is your own thing i was

diagnosed with anxiety uh and uh the doc put me on the meds for the zoloft and stuff but i had to learn to figure out what was triggering me especially for my mental thing and then i learned that i was tightening a muscle in my stomach that would cause everything else to get really tense and i would go into kind of high anxiety state. And so I had to learn what was triggering me and then how to start cutting it off and dealing with it. And then slowly weaned myself off of Zoloft and the meds after nine months. I still take the crack cocaine, but I don't think that...

It's a small thing though. It's a small thing. Yeah, it helps. It helps. It doesn't help people. That's a joke. Don't do drugs. Anyway, thank you very much, Jessica, for's a small thing, yeah. It helps. It helps. It doesn't help people. That's a joke. Don't do drugs. Anyway, thank you very much, Jessica, for coming on the show.

We really appreciate you. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming. And thanks, Amonis, for tuning in. Go to Goodreads.com, Fortress, Chris Voss, YouTube.com, Fortress, Chris Voss, one of the TikTok-ity, Chris Voss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress, Chris Voss. I don't know if I did that one. And you can buy your markers from Amazon Amazon and the mirror in your bathroom is free

thanks for tuning in, be good to each other stay safe and we'll see you guys next time