The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Making Conversation: Seven Essential Elements of Meaningful Communication by Fred Dust

Episode Date: December 3, 2020

Making Conversation: Seven Essential Elements of Meaningful Communication by Fred Dust A former Senior Partner and Global Managing Director at the legendary design firm IDEO shows how to design conversations and meetings that are creative and impactful. Conversations are one of the most fundamental means of communicating we have as humans. At their best, conversations are unconstrained, authentic and open—two or more people sharing thoughts and ideas in a way that bridges our individual experiences, achieves a common goal. At their worst, they foster misunderstanding, frustration and obscure our real intentions. How often do you walk away from a conversation feeling really heard? That it moved the people in it forward in some important way? You’re not alone. In his practice as a designer, Fred Dust began to approach conversations differently. After years of trying to broker communication between colleagues and clients, he came to believe there had to a way to design the art of conversation itself with intention and purpose, but still artful and playful. Making Conversation codifies what he learned and outlines the four elements essential to successful exchanges: Commitment, Creative Listening, Clarity, and Context. Taken together, these four elements form a set of resources anyone can use to be more deliberate and purposeful in making conversations work.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. The Chris Voss Show.com.

Hey, we're coming to you with another great podcast. We certainly appreciate you guys tuning in. Be sure to see the video version of this you can go to youtube.com fortune is chris voss hit that bell notification button you can check out all the wonderful interviews we have these brilliant authors right now and this is a great time to expand your mind as well uh we have a great author on today with a forthcoming book that's uh really topical actually for some of the discussions that everyone's having today and probably always will be, actually, when it comes down to it. Also go to goodreads.com, force-ask-chris-foss.

You can follow me over on Goodreads. You can see my reviews that are over on there, discussions, books. We actually have a book club that we're sitting up over there as well, so be sure to check that out. Tell your friends to go to thecvpn.com and subscribe to online podcasts uh they can also go to amazon.com for a shop for just chris foss you can click on all the books of all the people that have been on the chris foss show order their books uh expand your brain and all that good stuff and this episode is brought to you by IFI Audio and their new NEO IDSD. The NEO is the new wave of digital sound listening for your desktop, music, gaming, and bleeding-edge Bluetooth, even MQA audio file decoding.

We're using it in the studio right now. I've loved my experience with it so far. It just makes everything sound so much more richer and better and takes things to the next level. IFI Audio is an award-winning audio tech company with one aim in mind, to improve your music enjoyment of quality sound, eradicate noise, distortion, and hiss from your listening experience. Check out their new incredible lineup of DACs and audio enhancement devices at ifi-audio.com. Today, we have a most interesting guest on the show. His name is Fred Dust. His book that's coming out, this is going to be coming out in December 1, 2020. It's available for pre-sale right now. It's called Making Conversation, Seven Essential Elements of Meaningful Communication.

And this will be pretty interesting. He works at the intersection of business, society, and creativity. As a designer, author, educator, consultant, trustee, and advisor to social and business leaders, he's one of the world's most original thinkers, applying the craft and optimism of human-centered design to the intractable challenges we face today. Using the mythology of his forthcoming book, Making Conversation, he's been working with the Rockefeller Foundation to look at the future of global dialogue and the Einhorn Family Fund and other foundations to host constructive dialogue with leaders. Welcome to the show. How are you, Fred?

I'm pretty good, actually. It's like surprisingly good, better than I should be. And by the way, I haven't heard my bio in a long time, and it sounds a little arrogant. I apologize. No, you know what? All bios kind of sound, I mean, it sounds like you're talking about yourself, which is good. But to me, it's important the audience gets a chance to go well, who is this guy and why should we listen to him? So I think it's always awesome. Alright, okay.

People have to listen to my crap all the time, but honestly they're just relieved because they're like, oh God, cool, we can listen to somebody else but Chris all the time because that's why we always improv the beginning and the end is to kind of spice it up, give us a flavor. I'm right there with you on that. There you go. So, Fred, give us your plugs so people can find you on the interwebs.

Yeah, I think there's like there's two really important things, which is go to makingconversation.com where you can find out more about me. But you can also order the book or preorder the book-order the book, um, or really go to amazon.com and pre-order the book. I will say like buying books now matters more than ever. Um, so it's like, I like just like, even if it's not going to come till December, just do it because, um, it's a great Christmas present. It'll, it'll help you help you do stuff at home that you need to do after a hard, hard year. So there you go. Christmas pre pre pre Christmas present. It'll, it'll help you help you do stuff at home that you need to do after a hard, hard year. So there you go. Christmas pre pre pre Christmas planning. There you go. That's very smart. A lot of conversations. Get that shopping in early. So you don't have to deal with it because I mean, for all we know, we probably won't be able to go

to the mall over COVID. I think that's right. So don't buy 20. There you go. Buy 20. There you go. So the book title, Making Conversation, what motivated you want to write this book? Well, I mean, first, just the title. I think that the general principle behind the book is that it's like one of the most important things we can create is our conversations. And we haven't really thought about conversations. There are things that we can actually, we can apply creativity to. And so the books, the premise is, how do we have the world's hardest conversations or your hardest conversations in using creativity? There's a lot of different origins, but I'll tell you really what I think was the real origin for me is back in 2016,

2017, 2016, I was working with Vivek Murthy, Surgeon General Vivek Murthy. So he was an amazing Surgeon General. He was about to issue an epidemic of anxiety and isolation in America because he really believed that's what led to opioids. It led to gun crisis. It led to a bunch of things. I was working alongside of him, kind of creating new conversations that could allow people to kind of break through like this kind of this, this, this isolation. And then one day I basically emailed him and, and he had been fired. Like basically I got to bounce back because Trump suddenly realized that there was a surge in general

that he didn't really want. And it turns out that he wrote a book proposal that was about isolation at the same time that I wrote a book on how you can actually cure isolation through kind of being creative about conversations and have the hardest conversations of your life. And so I think in a way our books are,

his was like kind of like a call for help. And I'm like, here, here's a response. So that's one of the many origin stories, Chris. So what's the overall crux to the book? And then we'll get into it. So it's basically that there's a couple things. One is that you think we take it for granted, we can't have hard conversations. And yet if you look at the history of conversations, we've had hard conversations historically for thousands and thousands of years.

And so we have historical examples of where we've gotten through hard conversations. Like I'll tell you a story later about Abraham Lincoln and how he ended duels. But the reality is, if you look back at historical examples if you look at create creativity and like you look at directors and filmmakers and and whatever you can unlock new methods to have the hardest conversations that you want whether it's a mother having a conversation

with her daughter about anorexia at the dining table whether it's a um uh you know whether it's a hard business conversation whether it's having how you know, whether it's a hard business conversation, whether it's how do you have conversations with your Trump or Biden voting neighbor? You know, which I'm just being super nonpolitical. I'm just saying like both of them. Yeah, it's hard conversations to have these days. But you can do it. And so a lot of the work is really about how to kind of do that.

And so weirdly,ris um people are like i talked to some people and they're like are you psychic like did you like how did how did you know that this is the time for this book and i was just like i don't know maybe it's like it's like i just i just happened to have it have it done so so give us a give us a uh what's the i mean the foundation is making conversations so you you talk about how people can, you probably give people a bit of a toolkit in the book to, on how they can have conversations, maybe a foundation. They can take a layer and approach, I guess.

Yep. Maybe what I can do is I'll run through like really high level and just do like a one sentence on every one of the, there's only seven chapters. Sure. And what you can do, Chris, is then if there's one that sounds really interesting to you, you can ask me and I can give you a little bit more depth. Yeah. We'll just hit them all and expand on them. Okay, cool. So the first chapter is commitment. And the premise here is that you commit to people first and you hold your values second. So you commit to the conversation and the people, and then you keep your values to the side, which is counterintuitive.

So you're more interested in like, let's have a conversation. Now, let me ask you this. Do you have to get everyone to mutually agree to that in the conversation? Well, so remember that like, that sometimes conversations happen in a day and sometimes conversations happen over 20 years and so it's like but but this came up because I gave a lecture on this on creating conversation or making conversation and someone raised their hand was like well what do I do when

I can't I have to talk to somebody who hates me because of my politics and I was I was like I was kind of like stumped Chris I was like I don't know and then I and then I was like oh you need to commit to the person and say I really really am like I'm there for you and then like secondarily like like commit to your politics or whatever but I will tell you Chris the last chapter which is called create is like if you can't talk just make right so if you can't talk to your, you know, I'm making this up, Trump voting father-in-law or, or, you know, whatever it is, then just sit down and build something with him. You know, it's like, it's like, or, or bake some bread with your, with your, with your mother. Or, you know, it's like,

it's like that will give you as much kind of a tight bond as if you were actually, you were talking. So I like you set a foundation where you, where you communicate to the person that, that you want to have a conversation and that they're important to you, I guess. Yeah. And also there's another piece of this, which is like, I believe you can ask for the conversation you want to have. So I'll give you an example. When I moved to New York, I don't live in New York. I live in rural, rural Maine right now, which, by the way, feels like a pretty good place to be living. I'm pretty happy. But it's like when I lived in, I lived in Tribeca once. And I remember moving in and moving is a pretty stressful thing, right? And the first day, and I'm the sort of person who likes to unpack everything. And I get to the end of the day, I'm alone in the apartment with our dog. And someone seems is pounding on the door. And my husband's not around. It's just me pounding on the door. And I opened the door and there's a small older woman. And she's my downstairs neighbor. And she just like, screams at me like she's just like, you've broken every building rule like da da da da da like it's like she's like she's like you know you used my elevator and you're not allowed to use my elevator i'm like we didn't even use an elevator it's like

we would have to walk five stories up but it's like um i basically and i'm from california so i'm like my my first inclination is just to be nice and be like whatever you know it's like it's like it's like can i can i whatever and then i was just like i'm not gonna show up like a wuss i'm gonna like i'm just not gonna do that so I basically said I was like really calmly I was like is this really the way you want our relationship to start with this conversation and she stopped and she said no it isn't and like we became really close friends we were really brilliant actually yeah and so honestly like she saved us when we stupidly locked ourselves on the roof during Sandy. She spent the night drinking champagne when the power went out. And so, you know, don't be afraid at some point to ask for

the conversation you want to have. Like the honesty and the clarity that I'm just saying, is this really how you want to start out? My dad used to do this thing where when people were angry at him uh you know the you know they usually didn't know him you know like in a sense like you did and he would just calmly say to him he had a real calm way of putting his real dan ratherish in his delivery and and he would say to him uh he'd say something must have happened or something someone must have done something to make you this angry. And you're very upset with me and I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with me. What is it? He'd put people in tears sometimes with that.

Well, I, I love that, you know, and it goes to how people talk to each other who are sitting on different kinds of political perspectives, right? Which is like, if you can't talk about now talk about 12 year old you you know it's like like chris like just out of curiosity like who were you at 12 some stupid skinny kid not much has changed i just put some more fat on the bones but uh i'm still i'm just a stupid fat kid nowadays ask Ask anyone who listens to the podcast, they'll tell you. That's so interesting.

Of course, I was like, contrary, I was like this pretty poor kid in a private school where my father was the headmaster and I was gay and wouldn't come out because my dad wouldn't let me and I had to play sports and date the cheerleaders. So it's like, it's that humanizing thing where it's like it's like who are you at 12 who was i at 12 those are things you can talk about even if you can't talk

about other stuff yeah so sometimes it's better just to gain rapport and get some traction that way i mean is the intent to in game rapport eventually have the conversation so i mean i'll tell you i mean i'll give you a couple examples like so um i'm on the and this you'll see how like it's just how widespread this is so um i used to live upstate new york and upstate new york you have hunters and by the way there are hunters who carry guns but they're not ak ak-47s these are people like who hunt because that's what they've done for their entire life. And we have somebody who hunts our property that like hunts whatever. But so up here in Maine, everybody's freaked out by hunters. And like I had somebody hunting our property and he had a big Trump thing on his truck.

And I was like, well, you know, if I i have to if i'm talking to world leaders i can definitely go talk to talk to this trump voting hunter who's bow hunting on my property and i go to his and his son his son and i'm like hey what's your name and he's like marshall and i'm like oh so just curious like um uh we we usually like people ask if they're going to hunt our properties but we're okay because you're out here so let's just hunt for the next six hours or so, if that's what you want to do, but bring us some venison. If like, if, if you're shooting something and we just got to chatting and then he's like, by the way, I'm not voting for Trump. And I was like, okay.

And so, I mean, the reality is it's like, you know, in Maine, we, we actually, there's a lot of concern right now, but the people are like, you know, it's like, it's people are volunteering it. Can I tell you one more story, Chris? Yeah, you can. We're here for an hour or so. Yeah, so our Trump voting neighbor, who is a Trump voting neighbor, was also an EMT. And as an EMT, he was deployed to New York in the height of the pandemic. So people think that New York saved itself.

New York did not save itself. Like the world, like we, like basically the whole country saved New York. Like the people were shipped from all over to make sure that New York survived. And so we started texting him and just were like, are you okay? Like, and he would text every night

and he came over and he sat on our lawn after he had basically come back from being out in New York for six weeks. And he basically just told us everything he saw. Like all horrible things, one after another. And we just listened. And I realized that he was doing it because he couldn't tell his wife and he couldn't tell't tell his children. Right. Like, it's like, it's like, it's like he had to make sure that they felt safe. And so in my mind, I'm like, we just did this guy's service that he really needed. And like, and hopefully that makes him feel like we're not bad people. And so anyway, I guess it's important, Chris, for us to be doing this now. It really is.

Is it about connecting on a human scale that's exactly right it's just like it's like you know it's i do this the same with like organizations that are dealing with diversity inclusion which is like it's like you know it's like let's have a conversation like let's let's humanize your white woman ceo for a moment so let's ask her who she was at 12 and like like, let's humanize like your, your black employees who feel victimized. And like, let's make sure that you guys don't understand each other as humans first. And that's, that's really the premise of the book. There's a couple other chapters. Can I give you, can I give you a couple of them? So the second chapter is creative listening. And the idea here is that it's basically, I don't know if you know about this principle of active listening. It's like a, it's basically where you can, and you say like,

that's good. No, I'm just kidding. Exactly. You're doing that. I think that sucks. Like, I think active listening is just like the worst. It's not. And so I basically challenge people to be like, think about listening. Like you would listen to gossip or think about listening like you would listen in a Quaker church meeting or think about listening. Like, I think about my grandmother, my great grandmother, who told like amazingly short, like 30 second stories that stuck with you for like the rest of your life. And I'm like, I'm like, ask for a story that's 30 seconds and give them instructions on how to do that. And so, and like, I have a story from my grandmother that stuck with me.

It was, she told me when I was like six and I can remember it as vividly now as I can then. And it's like 20 second long story, 30 second long story. So, so do you think we really suck at listening? Cause we're in this age where everyone's pretty narcissistic and with social media they're used to just blasting out their opinion to everybody and no one really listens to each other um oh i mean like beyond suck i mean it's like i mean chris like it's like we're in a world where people don't say i'm not listening or i don't agree they say i

don't agree i'm not listening and i hate you right you. Right. So it's like, so it's like, it's more important than ever that we really pay attention to the things that are being said. And it's actually why I'll often ask people, like, tell me, tell me a short, you know, story about who you were. It's kind of like what your dad did, right, Chris, when he, when he said, you know, there must've been something in your life that happened that made you angry. Like, do you want to talk about that and that's like that's a really important skill like let me let me tell you my grandmother's story is that cool yeah let's do it so my grandmother we used to sit on a chair on a swing a swing on the back porch and she once told me a story she was a steel worker and she was one of the first women steel workers she stayed a steel worker when women went back from into being homemaking after the war she was a she

was a foreman so she worked all night in the steel mill and then she was a farmer during the day so she fed farm farm hands all day long so she really is a woman who didn't sleep she's probably really tough huh she was tough and amazing and so she told me the story when i was a kid which was that one night she came home one morning she came home and she had to get ready for feeding and she was so tired like she used to say just a few more days to tote the weary load like that was her common saying um and because she was always like just let me give up this yoke i don't it's like it's it's too tiring sounds like me the last four years yeah it's it sounds like a lot of. Sounds like me the last four years. It sounds like a lot of us

the last four years. She basically said one day she was walking and then she saw something blue coming down through the sky and it came closer and closer and closer and closer and it was Jesus. That gave her the energy

to go forward with the day. That's it. That's the story. So Jesus is blue? He was wearing a blue robe. So my grandmother was very religious, but it's like – I didn't know Jesus was into blue. Oh, yeah, blue robes. But so what's interesting is like –

Good for Jesus. That sounds like a good color. Oh, God. Here's some hot Jesuses. It's like I promise you. But the reality is that it's like... I promise. But so...

Is it the white ones or is it the other? Like, it's, oh, no. Like, it's like once you get into, like, Latin America and you get into, like, the Hispanic Jesuses, they get really beautiful. So it's like... Yeah, well, it's on there. I will tell you, like, what that story tells you

is, like, she was a religious woman how does she act kind of like you know like that's how she kind of moved forward and that's that's a very humanizing story and i realized later my grandmother who was quite religious used to call me hollywood when i was a kid i thought was maybe she thought i was cute and it was because she knew i was gay and so it was her way of saying, I see you. That's interesting. That's an interesting way to approach it. Yeah.

Yeah. And so that hits actually on one other chapter, Clarity, which is really all about like, how do you talk normal? Like, can you just lose the jargon and lose the fancy words? And like, it's just like, it's time to lose it um which i think is one of the things you do really well oh thank you i hope so i i try i try to do the best of whatever it is i'm supposed to be doing whatever that is and i'm not sure how i would identify it if i don't know what it is so that makes non-sense what i just said so i'm sitting here thinking in my head

what the fuck am i talking about right now? But I'll take that compliment. Maybe you were just listening really well to me or something. But no, I like this concept that you have. I think you did a TED Talk too, didn't you, about making conversation? Yeah. I haven't done a conversation yet, but I've done other TED Talks, and we'll probably line up.

It's making conversation. Yeah, so people in the audience can check that out as well. But I like this idea of laying a foundation. It just occurred to me as we were talking that women are really good at this because when women really want to have a conversation with you, they go, we need to talk. talk and like that's the moment that like i i just soon go through like one of those fargo feed machines you know with my body then have whatever that talk's gonna be you know that talk that's the talk you gotta listen to you gotta pay attention yeah that's that's some stuff you gotta deal with but no i like i like the foundation maybe maybe sitting down with people and coming up with agreement like let's let's just we'll role play

here for a second and i'm just testing out your theory so you tell me if i'm doing it right but maybe like let's say we're on the opposing side of politics which we are but but uh at least that's my opinion that's my feeling right now now. But let's say that we're not. And so I would sit down with you and go, hey, you know, Fred, I know that you like this president, and I like this president who's the opposing president. And I'd really like to talk to you about politics or talk to you about this subject maybe, something.

I don't know. Let's say Black Lives Matter. Let's pull that one because that's a big thing that people are discussing i like talking about black lives matter and i was wondering if maybe we could have a discussion without getting into the weeds of uh you know all the different you know q anon and stupid stuff um and so you lay a foundation where we we try and come to agreement maybe first before we have the conversation you are right there you're like you're right you're an apt pupil in a good way like so basically um i have a chapter called constraints which is basically the rules of conversation and the premise is that you can set

and reset the rules of conversation and you can set the rules so it can be safe for both people so basically and and one of the things we often don't do is we don't think that there are rules to a conversation, but there are right. Like they're, they're applied. And so you're, you're, you're, you're like right there. And so that's a great example for me to tell you about how we ended duels around the world, how Abraham Lincoln did. So, so for duels, which have been around for centuries and centuries, like since the beginning of mankind. And they sound like really hard conversations to have yeah exactly humankind and they're like one person does win right totally and it's like usually like chris like it's like i offend you

you you challenge me to a duel and then we fight a duel and then one of us might die and that sucks um and so basically um there was a there's a there's a set of rules that, I mean, I think it sucks. It might be great for social media these days. I know it's true. So you set a rule and, but the, but the thing is there was a thing called code duello and code duello govern the principles of how you would have a duel. And so that was pretty standardized. But then around the 1840s, people were like, you know, I kind of don't

want to die. Like, it's like, like, so it's like, yeah, I have to accept a duel. But like, do I have to die? And so, so the new rule that they put into Code Duelo was, I challenge you to a duel, Chris, but then I give you the rules. So you get to write the rules of the duel so that you can make it so that it's less likely that you're going to die. So the most famous duel that never happened was Abraham Lincoln was challenged to a duel by his friend, but his friend basically had to hand the rules over to Abraham Lincoln. So Abraham Lincoln rewrote the rules and said they were going to shoot, they were going to, they were going to fight with war, Civil War broadswords, or not Civil War, Revolutionary Era broadswords, because it was before the Civil War, and they were going to stay 12 feet apart.

So it's basically a COVID-safe duel. And they got to the dueling ground, and it was so ridiculous, because you realize you were never going to get close enough to actually hit the other person that they just burst into laughter, and then they were friends after that. They just went back and they drank.

So, what's interesting. Sounds like a lot of work to go around, but I mean, at least you're alive, right? 10 years later, what replaces it is the Lincoln-Douglas debates. So debates suddenly replaced duels. And I think what we've sort of seen is that debates have become,

like there are no rules anymore. Like they basically gotten rid of, I mean, the Lincoln Douglas debates were like three days, really thorough, great conversation. Yeah. Making, it was making conversation. Like if any debates you've seen recently, I don't know if you've seen any debates recently and they're, they're rule lists. I think everyone just has to abide by the rules if people make that connection you know i well that's good i

thought you were going to tell me about the most famous abraham lincoln duel was with john wolk's booth oh too soon i'm sorry i'm sorry he lost that duel by the way i. I know, I know. Way too soon. For those of you who may have not read your history. That's a bad joke. That's really bad. I might not make it in any. Yeah, no, it's bad. Might be too soon. But no, so debates.

So is that where we really started becoming a society that debated then? Yeah. Well, actually, we've always been a society that debated. I would say that there were a lot of debates that were, I mean, so Ancient Greek Society debated. It was done very well. Like, it's like, so it's like, it's always been in our DNA. And debate is like, debate can be a good thing. It's like, what really sort of degrade debates for us is the televising debates, right?

So we know the famous story about like, you know, Kennedy, the Kennedy-Nixon debates. And the fact that people who watched them on television like thought that Kennedy had won. But do you know that people who watched him on radio or listened to him on radio thought that Nixon had won? Yep. So that's the beginning of the degradation, right? And then it's like you go to handing our dinner time over to TV,

you know, and so suddenly we didn't have dinner time conversations. And then you, and to the point that now it's like, maybe the last thing you do in the morning or at night is, is watch TV or, and watch something really terrible or the first thing you do in the morning. And it's like, that's really, we've been degrading conversation pretty much since the fifties, I would say. So would you say that's one of the problems we're having in our lives right now is number one, we don't know how to have good conversations or maybe communicate really well. And number two, we don't even listen if we do. like um one of the chapters is on context and it's basically about your space so it's like it's like the places that you have conversations in and um what's interesting about that is that that seems irrelevant right now right because you might be like well nobody's having conversations in space

but but the reality is we still are you know it's like and so it used to be that i would say like oh clean up your table before you have a conversation. So like, so in the old days, it was like, it was like, before you sit down for a family meal, why don't you all set the table together? Because in essence, then you're all establishing the place where you're going to have dinner together, right? So it's like, it's like, and then you establish that you're all invested in the conversation and that you're all committed by making the table. And honestly, that's something that my husband and I do every night. We clear the table and make sure it's clear.

We set the table. And it helps us kind of establish the fact that we're putting our days behind us. And now we're going to just be there in conversation with each other. And that really helps, Chris. You know, it's really striking. I never really even thought of that. But my mom would make me and my brother, we were, you know, the two oldest kids, and we had to set the table.

So one of us would do the plates and the cups, and the other one would do the silver. And this is back in the old days when people, like you say, would sit down and actually eat together and, you know, not look at their phones because we didn't have phones. Do you think that this era where we're doing this all the time looking at our phones has been a real crippler to what you're talking about oh yeah i mean i sort of feel like i mean it's a really interesting thing because i i was wanting to argue that it was like it wasn't it wasn't really phones it was just kind

of the advent of television it was a bunch of other things that gradually kind of eroded conversation in america so i feel like we've been on a long arc for this but then i think i'm sure you've all had this moment where sometime during the last nine months you just basically kind of got lost in your phone standing in the middle of your kitchen like a zombie right like just kind of totally out of it were you saying something freddo's looking exactly that's exactly right and so so, I mean, and that still happens. Like, I'll lose... We have somebody here who's painting the house. I'm like, I watch him just kind of like

lose himself in his phone, and he's just kind of like staring into space. Yeah, it's really problematic. Like, it's like you need to put the devices away like at dinnertime. Like, it's just like you always have had to. Or if you're talking to your biden or trump voting neighbor um and you want to kind of make sure you're focused just don't bring your phone at all you know it's like

it's like it's like that said chris a lot of important conversations right now are happening via text you know it's like it's like i mean we're having we're having hard good conversations through technology you know and so it's like, it's like, I mean, we're having, we're having hard, good conversations through technology, you know? And so it's like, so it's like, don't isolate yourself. But I mean, I've definitely, I'm not like voting for isolation. I'm just like, but it's like, but, but you know, be careful. Like if you can get real attention do. Just before the show is having a really important texting conversation on

only fans. Sorry. I had to get that joke in there yeah yeah yeah but you know i watched i i kind of came of age after the recession wiped out my businesses with twitter and social media i was one of the early adopters of it and and so a lot of the last 10 years have've been talking about social media and back when it was in the kumbaya it's certainly taken a dark turn and and i remember noticing one of the one of the things that used to depress me is i would go into like a restaurant and i would see a family of four two kids and and they'd be eating and every one of them be, look at their phones. There wouldn't be no conversation. I know. And I would see young people, you know,

you or I are probably old enough to have grown up where like the only thing I had 11 years old was dirt closet throw against the house wall and we could drink in fields and build clubhouses and stuff. And, uh, you know, now kids don't even go outside and if you see them they're just like i know you know well like chris i'll give you i'll give you hope like i'm in a very rural community right and like just saying just give you a sense our community hasn't had any cases that we know of and there's been no deaths so it's like it's maine it's like i'm moving to maine then if you look at maine like it If you look at Maine, Maine's got this.

Mostly I'll come for the lobster, though, really. I got them for you. I got a trap down there with 10. They cost me $4. They cost me $4 here. $4 for a lobster? I'll make you a lobster. I'm out.

I'm on my way. My lobster guy is awesome not not to mention he's he's pretty hot it's like um but but basically like i have um but here it's you you wouldn't know that it's the 20 what is it the 21st century is like you wouldn't know because like no no kids have phones they're all playing like it's like like we come into town and like we get swamped by the kids and like the kids are like hey go see my dad in the boat shop he wants to talk to you about something or like are you or fred you need to do this like they all know each other they're all playing like hide and seek constantly like it's really weird i came

to town the other day and i was like why the hell is because kids like trying to find a place right is there like is there like you know i don't i was thought about the worst i was like is it where you're about to see a school shooting or something it's like and they were just playing hide and seek and i was just like i don't think i've seen a hide and seek for like you know since i would i played it when i was a kid so it's a really different different moment here it's like and i gotta say like rural's got this yeah yes i mean it's like that you may not think that um but but but they they've been they've been doing pretty good it's like so your book explores one of the

challenges that i've had in ways that i've tried to figure out how to crack the nut especially of like i mean there's all sorts of hard discussions you can have whether you're coming out to a parent that's a definitely a challenging thing. Religion, I grew up in a cult and wanted to leave it. And having conversations with your parents where you're like, I don't want to do your thing anymore. It's cool for you, but I don't want to do it anymore. And we still have hard times talking religion.

And I'm an atheist, so those two make hard conversations politics make hard conversations of course especially nowadays um sometimes social aspects a lot of people argue about black lives matter racism um you know there's there's there's a whole host of these different things that we have a hard time with um And one of the things I've tried to do, especially with politics or racism, is try and get down to what the core is, because I realize there's a core there somewhere, and a lot of these beliefs are built upon those cores. So I imagine when you agree, or you try and say, okay, well, let's have a conversation about this. So it's probably really important on those rules you're talking about to say okay what are the rules because one of the problems i have with it's kind of like monkey

fleeing shit at the zoo if you've ever heard of that never happened to me for some reason i always skip zoo day but i always hear about the monkey shit fleeing afterwards but the the problem you have like politics is like okay let's say we want to talk about the opposing presidents and we're going to talk about black lives matter and then suddenly you start throwing like q anon in and then you throw in well they did this and that guy did this and that guy did this and you're like whoa those these are outside the rules we're gonna we're not gonna because because at that point you can't you can't have the argument because then you're just you know you might as well just start and it's one time in band camp sort of stuff yeah i mean

it's like it's like i think and i would love to hear more about the cult i'm fascinated by cult but the reality is like i'm not not a good way just more like like it's it's crazy but but i feel like that's that's right and that's the place where again you go back to asking for the conversation you want like it's like if you can't have the conversation you want then put it away for the moment and have it like next week you know it's like it's one of the things that you do and so is that the polite way to approach it and say look i think that our agreement to the conversation the rules that we've established are getting out of hand and i don't think we're being constructive and we're being destructive to each other's race and i care about you so why don't we yeah let's

put let's put aside we'll talk next week or we'll talk about something else. I think that's a really important aspect because sometimes when people get into conversations, they're like, I will leave you to be my way and we will not finish until I have converted you to whatever. Totally right. And it's like, that's why it's like, it's totally okay to stop. I mean, one of the things that I'll often do is, is ask people to just put time limits on a conversation. Like just basically say, you know, it's like, this is gonna be a 30 minute conversation or it's going to be a 30 minute conversation. And we're going to, we're going to be quiet for the, at minute 20 for a minute, just to kind of think about what we're

thinking, what we're, what we're dealing with. So it's like, so there's a lot of really simple ways you can do this by time bounding, like time bounding is it's a rule right so if you if you say we have 30 minutes you've established a rule you're saying like it's going to end even if it's insufferable and hard it's going to be over you know it's like and that that makes it a little bit easier to have to have the conversation so um there's so many different ways you can actually constrain and this is chris this is ultimately the point of the book which is that just get creative like think about it like i'll ask you i like how you've kind of taken out of the box sorry for interrupting you but i like how you've taken out of the box and deconstructed it and gone you know because everyone just wants to be like ram my opinion

down your throat and somehow you're going to agree with me at the end but because i'm ramming it it's probably not going to end well. No, that's exactly right. And so he realizes that it's like, you know, if you can, if you can, you know, do something else. And like, if you can bake bread or do something else, then you can actually like, you can actually make a conversation and you can make a conversation that works. It's like, it really, it's just like,

it's just like step one step outside of the box is it's a great way to put it. Chris. I like this idea i'm gonna look forward to reading the book the um because i really thought about doing it i mean women are really good at this women are i mean really good at this they they sit you down and they go and you'll be at work or something and they'll call you and they go hey how's it going yeah fine and they're like hey when you come home tonight we get to talk and like the dread you're just like well chris here's the thing i learned i learned i learned how to um make how to listen how to creatively listen from my mom because my mom was a really

good listener like she was one of those people who like strangers would walk up to her on the street and just like start talking to her they want like they wanted to tell her a story which i have a little bit as well i think it's like i think they call it the resting nice face because it's like it just looks like i'll talk to you and so i just and i've gotten used to having conversations with everybody all the time you know it's like but it's worth it i mean i've gotten some of my most valuable writing tips from uber drivers you know it's just just like, yeah. Oh yeah. My, my favorite, my best writing tip was a young black woman in Los Angeles who had moved there because she wanted to get, she actually, she grew up Catholic, but we shared a great conversation and she basically,

or Baptist. And she was like, I want more religious values in television. So I want to get into the writer's room. And she, at some point was like, I was my writer's block. And she was like, there's no such thing as writer's block. If you can't write, then you're just writing in the wrong place. Go to something else, which she had actually taken from Shonda Rhimes' Masterclass, the person who,

I can't remember, now I can't remember what Shonda Rhimes did, but all those amazing movies, TV shows, and I was like, that's the best piece of advice I ever got on writing, and it was from an Uber driver in Los Angeles. So like, just talk to people. It's worth it. Like it's, we're, we're put on earth to do that,

Chris. We have to, I don't know if you talk about this in the book, do we, but do we have to kind of come to a conclusion in and of ourselves before we start selling to other people that we're, that we should be curious about one another, that we care about one another, and that we want to have that conversation, but that we value the other person, I guess. Yeah, I mean, it has to be the case. Like I said, it's why we're here. It's like, I mean, if you don't want to do that, then question why be on earth at all. It's like my I mean, like if you don't want to do that, then like, then question why, why, why be on earth at all?

Like, it's like, it's like my feeling, Chris, and this is partially because, you know, I'll be honest. My mother had a stroke that debilitated her at 24. I mean, when I was 24. And so you kind of, when you realize that you live with a, perhaps a time limit on your life, very young, like, because her dad died when he was 30. So I've always been sure i would die i'd be dead by now um i basically it makes you reevaluate the way you think about your life and i was just like i'm doing it all like it's like i'm gonna go everywhere i'm gonna talk to everyone i'm gonna try try loving everyone if i can like just really kind of come come to

things but from an attitude of love and it's changed my life it's given me a much better life frankly so yeah i i i i'm the same way i grew up from the way i grew up i've always questioned everything i don't know i was i was from three years old i was that guy who's like i don't know about what you're telling me what's going on there and uh and then asking the questions and you know always being told just you ask stupid questions. You have to have faith in Jesus and you'll be fine. And you're just like, well, I don't know. I got some questions, man.

I want them answered. And until he answers my questions, I'm buying. You know, some reason I was born with the, what is the, doubt the man or whatever. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's totally right. Question authority. But then also I'm inn. Oh my God. It's totally right. Question authority. But then also I'm innately curious about people.

Like I like stories. And part of that comes from my upbringing where I question everything. And I question why people do things. Why people leave. Why do you believe in a certain deity? Why do you believe in little green Martians are running around or lizard people? Why do people believe what they believe? Whatever it is, you know, whether they, you you know whether they they're in love or not or whether their

marriage works or not or whatever whatever sort of bs they con themselves into and we're all guilty of doing it but but it's always interesting to me the the the way people believe things um and so i i'm just innately curious i've always been a story. But I don't know if a lot of people are that way, but maybe reading their book, they should think about it from that angle. I think so, Chris. I mean, it's like I'm guessing that you kind of collecting those stories of what you've done so brilliantly through your own work is really about like it's like opening up and giving people like new kind of bits of joy by kind of

getting those stories out there or sorrow, or, you know, or whatever. And it's like, and I just feel like a lot more, like, I live a fuller life, because I just I want to hear people's stories. And so I think, and you're doing it, it's, it's what the book does. Like, it's like, it's, it's like, you know, I'm like'm telling so many different stories about different people, whether it's a farmer in Peru who stopped domestic violence in her village or whether it's a very religious women's book club about sex. It's like how are people having the hardest conversations and what are they using to make that happen?

You've given me a good toolbox, and I'll give you an example because it's probably good for our audience as well. This happened to me this morning just before we went on the podcast. I was having a that sounds like it's very anti-Black Lives Matter because it sounds very all lives matter conversation. And right away, the conversation is being shut down and closed off. And maybe the way I should have approached that was, are we going to have, do you want to have an open conversation about this? Are you willing to listen or not? And that may have been a better way to approach that

because then there would have been a decision made either way, which would have been fine either way. But certainly by me just going headlong into it and assuming that, okay, so we're going to have this conversation because you're opening up this conversation to me. You must be willing to listen. And then I hit a wall and found that person didn't want to listen that I love. And I don't know if you want to break that down.

I'm going to break it down by telling you a different story, but it's very similar, which is that I was once approached by a black activist group that i really respect and um and somebody who was in their leadership basically was like we really want your advice and your and your thinking but just so you know because you're a white man we may not listen to you and and i i was like i'm being serious i mean this is over drinks like like and and i and, and I was like, I was like, Hmm. Yeah. That, that doesn't work for me. It's like that. It's like that you're, you're asking my advice and like, and yet you're, you're just telling me right up front that you might not

listen to me. And she said, and she was right. She was like, you know, nothing about the systemic genocide of black men. This was at that point it point it was it was it was mostly focused around the death of black men as you as we know like which was epidemic um and it's horrific and so i said well let me just tell you a story which is that i was a gay man growing up in the 80s um when hiv aids terrified us and what did we call hiv aids We called it genocide of gay people. That's actually what we referred to it. And so actually, sorry, I have to do some cuter thing. Actually, that changed everything. Like, she was like, I didn't know about that.

And I was like, well, let's talk about that. And let's talk about why the fact that there's very few gay men of my generation, like who are left in whatever. And the reason you don't know this story is because so many people have died, you know, it's like, and, and it took us a while. It wasn't immediate. But I would say over like, over a year, we became quite close. And like, she and I communicate all the time now. And it's like, and I, I really respect that relationship. It took a while, Chris, to build that relationship. So it's kind of the counter. It's like, it's like, it's like, you know, here's a situation where somebody was saying like, no, not so much you. And I'm like, no, come on, let's, let's, let's get to a place where we can actually have a real conversation. And so would you call that a negotiation and an agreement?

It's a negotiation, right? There we go. Given that there's a there's another chris out there but it's like you're i i like i like you a lot i like i think i like you like you better but it's like um but you don't have to like me better you can just like me i just i just like you but it's like i hate the other guy but it's okay but so basically but i've tried to have a conversation with him there There you go. You did, you did the right thing, but it's like, but I feel like, you know, my feeling is, yeah, it was a bit of a negotiation. And even to this day, like, she's like, Oh, I'm going to my black, black book group. And I'm like, I want to go. And she's like, you can't, you're not black. It's like,

and I'm like, Oh, right. Okay. So it's like, we have to kind of course correct with each other pretty much constantly. But, but I like really respect that. Like, it's like, and I like that that she's willing to do that.'m like, oh, right, okay. So it's like we have to kind of course correct with each other pretty much constantly, but I really respect that. And I like that she's willing to do that and I'm willing to do that and we're just like, we're in it. And it's like, by the way, Chris, it's work. It's like it takes an effort, but there's so much reward that comes out of it.

And maybe that's our problem nowadays. We just want to – we don't want to put in the work maybe. I think that's our problem nowadays. We just want to, we don't want to put in the work, maybe. I think that's exactly right. Yeah. I mean, you know what's interesting? One of the people, one of the stories I tell in the book is about a school for addicted kids where an addiction nowadays, by the way, looks different. It's like addicted to porn. It's addicted to like, you know, cutting themselves. It's addicted to like, it's addicted to like you know cutting themselves it's addicted to like it's like like whenever when i

would talk to teachers they were like i wish we had old school addicts we have we have like these addicts are entirely different like they're the boys have fallen into themselves so like they're they're like they're basically deep introverts things like themselves and everything yeah and i come from vegas i know addiction like that's the one thing i just don't do like i just don't gamble we we have everything in vegas though all right it's sin city yeah whatever your vice is we got it for you it is not a joke you are entirely right so it's like it's so funny because i used to give lectures in vegas all the time and I'm like I'm like whoa and but but what's interesting is that it's like they that school that they went to and they could leave at any moment so it wasn't like a lockdown camp it was like they could go anytime but if they

were there they had to commit to the rules of the conversation and commit to having a conversation and talk about work like these are like 12 to 16 year old kids or like you know 14 to 8 to 16 and like they're doing the hardest work of their lives like trying to kind of like get through addiction and then and have the hardest conversations of their lives all using rules like it's like it's pretty powerful i have to say it's amazing addiction really is a lifelong thing people that have addictive personalities and stuff, I don't think you'd ever really overcome it. You can manage it.

I have a lot of friends that have done 12-step programs and changed their life and sober living and stuff. Most people I knew in Vegas, I knew people that, whether it was gambling addiction or drug addiction or, you name it, Vegas is Vegas. You'd see it. And usually what I found, too, is a lot of people who had addictive personalities, sometimes they'd grow from different things. You know, it'd be alcoholism for a few years, and then it'd be smoking or drinking or drugs or gambling and, you know, pick your poison but so it was always in the vein of addiction yeah i mean it's interesting because it's like um aa is a form of constructed

conversation it's like it's basically a good example of making conversation it's like you know like 12 steps gives you a gives you a rule like it's like i i have a lot of friends who are who are in aa and um like uh i've i have family members who are in AA and like I've, I have family members who are in AA. And what's interesting is that they will say that they like, that you can drop into an AA meeting anywhere in the world at any moment. And you're going to always feel safe in that room because the, the rules are kind of well articulated for how you actually engage in an AA meeting. And so it's like,

it was a remarkably inspiring example for me. For that matter, like Weight Watchers, people who are really into Weight Watchers say the same thing. Like, it's like, you can drop into a Weight Watchers meeting anywhere and it's going to feel safe and constructed. And so we see, that's the point, Chris. There's examples all around us that if we just look we can say wait a second how does aa do it how does how does weight watchers do it like it's like and you can bring that into your life and like just don't don't feel constrained like just everything can be inspiring that's good to know i wouldn't i clearly wouldn't know what weight watchers

conversations like you watching the video no i'm talking read the book it'll tell you about how it is there you go uh so i do you talk in the book about how important listening is and and to be able to have the banter of engagement like i've always been a person who really likes debates like christopher hitchens one of my favorite debaters. We've talked a lot in recent years, and we've had some great authors on about the famous Baldwin. I'm going to blank on this. You know the one I'm talking about, James Baldwin and William F. Buckley Jr. And there were rules in those debates. There's usually banter.

One person says something and then the other person says something and then something happens. Do you talk about that in your book? I do. I mean, it's funny. I have a nuanced feeling about debate, but I feel like when done well,

like the example you gave, they're beautiful things, right? It's like where they're done with civility and respect and a kind of humor and kind of find finding where somebody is and and that's really where debate was you know it's like i think that there's just a variety of kinds of debate right so it's like it's like there's like there's debate clubs which can be good but as you know there's also debate clubs where it's like it's just about talking as fast as you possibly can you know it's like i'm like making making an argument that like is just like and so it really depends on the kind of debate um but listening though i mean how important is like listening in the debate to like listen to the person and go well so that that's a great example if you look at

some of the evolution of debate clubs now, like many of them aren't about listening. Like it's like they're about just kind of making as many points and giving you as much facts as they can. But then there are others that are. And there's a really interesting movement even in debate clubs where there's protest debates. So like there's a university up here somewhere where like,

oh, shoot, I can't, it's just my tongue. But basically where their debate club just basically sings. Like their argument will be like, we'll sing. You have to sing the argument? Yeah, yeah. It's like, and they lose the debate every single time, but they're like, I don't care. It's like, we're still going to do it. It's like, and there's debate clubs that rap, you know, it's like,

and it's like, they probably lose the argument every time. But it's like, but like, they're like, we don't care that that's how we're showing up. And so, you know, the reality is like, there's a bunch of different ways to do this. You know, it's like, like, I mean, I think my favorite conversation of the year right now, the one that I think really wins you know who wins for me and this is gonna be you're gonna laugh but taylor swift like so taylor swift is my spirit animal you need to know that so it's like but taylor swift you know does this amazing album folklore and then she goes on the country music um awards and we expect her to take down her things and basically say you have to stop voting for trump or you have to stop kind of not believing covid happens and what does she do instead she takes a song from that album and she

countryfies it and basically in singing that song in a country way like she's basically saying to her fans i still love you you're still my fans like and it's like and i still i like i'm coming back to you and it's like it was i would watch it if you haven't watched it chris it's like and i still i like i'm coming back to you and it's like it was i would watch it if you haven't watched it chris it's like stunning it's like it's one of the most moving conversations that i've seen um like in a long long time and then taylor's songs get stolen by different people and they reinterpret it you know from the perspective of whatever wherever they're coming from and she's like thank you i love this i love this interpretation when we know how she feels about music rights right so yeah yeah and her prior library yeah and so she's really like she's doing it as far as i'm concerned

it's like and i don't know there's surprisingly surprisingly good places where conversations are happening that you might not notice that are conversations right now yeah the um and maybe that's what we need to focus on the importance of conversations the the value in them um listening is really important uh getting away distractions when i used to be able to go to lunch with my friends or coffee or whatever um i would always put my phone down my rule was i didn't make it their rule i mean i i didn't push my thing on other people, but I tried to lead by example if you would, but I always put my phone and turn it off.

And I would try very hard not to pick it up because there's something about when, you know, I mean, I think of it as me putting up a barrier between you and I when I do this. And it's basically saying like i find that what you're doing is not as interesting as this and so therefore i am this fuck you yeah um and so uh and and maybe and fortunately for me i come you know you and i come from generations where we didn't have phones and we actually had conversations uh in fact i was watching the social dilemma i

think it is on netflix yeah i got around to that it's queued up if i can ever get some screen time that isn't yeah if you get a chance to watch it but there's a scene in there where the mom says hey we're all gonna put our phones away in a box and we're gonna actually have a dinner conversation people don't know how to do that. It's an interesting play out in the drama. I was at a place where that was premiering and I wanted to see it, but it's like I definitely want to watch it. Everybody keeps being like

this is like so core to your work and I need to do it. Honestly, Chris, I've been looking at screens so much that it's like I can't get to the end of the day and be like, I'm going to go to my own TV. So it's like I have to do it. I have to make it part of my work day, I think, is the right thing to do.

But a lot of people, they don't know how to have a conversation. And I don't think they know how to listen either. And I almost just had kind of an epiphany. A lot of people don't know how to do stories. Maybe that's because they're not innately curious either. I agree. And you know, I have, I have like four rules of how to tell the perfect 30 second story, which I'm going to have to go soon. So can I, can I tell you that?

And then is it, is it, okay, cool. Like, so the four, the four rules are take your story and make it as short as you possibly can. Think back to my grandmother's story about seeing Jesus, right? Like, now I can't remember what they are. But that's the first one. The second one is make a story that reveals something about you. So it reveals something kind of personal, which again, my grandmother's story

revealed that she was like religious. And stop where the, I mean, like basically stop your story where it begins. So my grandmother like sees Jesus and then what? We don't know. Like then what happens to her? Does she, what does she do in her life?

What does, is there anything? So you kind of like leave people in anticipation and they don't quite know. And then the last one is, and with a twist, like, it's gotta be a surprise. It's like why we love dark mirror. It's why we like, you know, reading like twisty science fiction or Ray Bradbury or any of those things is like, there's always a surprise ending. And so, you know, something blue is coming down out of the sky. The last thing you think it is, is like, it's Jesus, you know, like, he's gonna like, you know, you know, give my grandmother a thumbs up. And so it's like, but that that's a great example. Like last night, I was I was at dinner, and I told somebody a story

about how, how I was driving out of a really very wealthy friend's house in the Dominican, and I was kidnapped by the police um and held in a yard and she had to use the militia to get us out and that's it that's the story it's like and that's the true story really it's a true story and i'm not i'm not gonna tell you anything more about it but it's like pretty intriguing right yeah they were like you just did that thing with the story and i'm like yeah that's what that's what we do. And we'll wrap up here. But, you know, I just had kind of a light bulb that went on. We used to, as a society, before we had TV and before we had radio

and all these stupid gadgets, we would entertain each other around the table and we would tell stories and we would, you know, act out scenes or do laughter or play music. But we would take know act out scenes or do laughter play music but we would take turns entertaining each other like i remember as a kid sometimes when we'd have our little family reunions people would go up and you know we we kind of take turns doing stuff to entertain each other and tell stories and i remember years ago you know i've always been a story collector and i i i you know owning lots of businesses having hundreds of employees i come home every day with stories and be like you won't believe what this employee did

today and and i've always just had piles of stories and i remember i had this one girl for new dated she was really nice but she she worked for the airlines and so she would travel to three cities in a day meet hundreds of people yeah and i'd be like, so what happened to you today? You know, I get done telling my stories. And I'd be like, what happened to you? And she'd be like, nothing. I'd be like, what? Like, you traveled like half the nation while I've been at work.

And you've met hundreds of people and been in cities and nothing? Like, there was nothing. And so maybe we just need to relearn that and focus on that. You know, I'll maybe I'll end with the last thing, which is that like our, when we were on our farm for a while, we used to not have wifi and we did that on purpose so that when people would come over, um, what happens when you're sitting on the table, like, you know, when you'd be like, Oh,

remember this actor and you would say their name and they'd be like, I think so, but then you can't Google it. And so basically what would happen is, like, people would start making shit up. Like, they would basically be like, they would be like, sorry, I don't know if I can say that, but basically they'd be like, oh, yeah, it's like,

I think that they were in Gilligan's Island, and da-da, and, like, it's all wrong. You know, it's like, and it really wouldn't be until the weekend was over, and we were driving back, and we finally got, like, a signal that that you google and you'd be like oh wait we made everything up like but that was like way more fun the stories are probably better actually way more fun than basically actually knowing the facts so so let me let maybe we end with that yes like just like turn off the phone and don't google it and just make it up if you need to

focus on stories and focus on human beings so there you go guys the conversation with fred dust his book coming out december 1st 2020 is making conversation seven essential elements of meaningful conversation i'm sorry communication let me redo that making conversation seven essential elements of meaningful communication fred dust you can find him uh on amazon or Let me redo that. Making Conversations, Seven Essential Elements of Meaningful Communication. Fred Dust, you can find him on Amazon or anywhere booksellers can put in where you can put in to preorder the book. Give us your.com where people can find you on the interwebs. Yeah, it's makingconversation.com, and then go to amazon.com and preorder.

It's really important. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. This was fun. Pick it up, guys. I think this is going to be really important because we're going to be having a lot of conversations, I think, regardless of how the future comes out. And we're all stuck at home living with each other right now, so we have to actually talk to each other or try to. So check it out, guys.

Order up the book. Thanks to Fred for being with us on the show today. Thank you very much, Fred, for being here. Thank you. All right. Thank you. And to my audience, stay safe, register to vote.

We'll see you guys next time.