The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Mastering Business Exits: Insights from Entrepreneur Luke Peters

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

Mastering Business Exits: Insights from Entrepreneur Luke Peters Apexceo.co About the Guest(s): Luke Peters is an accomplished entrepreneur and former CEO of NewAir, a company he founded in 2001. Under his leadership, NewAir transitioned from a garage startup to a thriving enterprise, achieving over $600 million in cumulative sales. Luke's journey began in Fountain Valley, California, where he learned the value of hard work in his family's donut shop. With academic credentials in microbiology, Luke initially worked as a hazardous waste scientist before venturing into entrepreneurship. Post-NewAir, he has become a seasoned coach for CEOs, guiding them toward successful exits and efficient business operations. Episode Summary: Join Chris Voss on The Chris Voss Show as he dives deep into an enlightening conversation with Luke Peters, a trailblazing entrepreneur and visionary leader. Luke, who helmed NewAir from a garage startup to a multimillion-dollar enterprise, shares wisdom and anecdotes from his business journey, revealing the secret ingredients for sustained growth and successful business exits. This episode is packed with insights for entrepreneurs looking to optimize and eventually exit their businesses. Discover the pivotal role of alignment, product focus, people, and margin management in building a resilient business. Luke Peters outlines how these elements form the backbone of his consulting philosophy, guiding CEOs to not just grow their profits but to customize their exit strategy for maximum payoff. Chris and Luke also delve into the mental game of entrepreneurship, discussing how managing stress and anxiety can lead to better decision-making and innovation. Packed with takeaways on strategic planning, market adaptability, and identifying critical business challenges, this episode is a must-listen for aspiring leaders and seasoned business owners alike. Key Takeaways: Alignment and Strategy: Luke Peters emphasizes the importance of aligning team efforts with the strategic goals of the business to ensure success and operational efficiency. Focus on Product and Margins: Understanding product performance and accurate margin tracing is critical for improving company valuation and profitability. Preparing for an Exit: Business continuity and exit strategy must be planned with de-risking measures such as diversification and management strength. Mental Resilience: Managing stress and anxiety is crucial for rational decision-making and coping with the dynamic nature of business challenges. Continuous Adaptation: Keep an eye on market changes and technological advancements to ensure the business is future-proofed and adaptable. Notable Quotes: "You have to have systems and you're gonna get, you need to be auditable and all these types of things." "People don't actually think deep enough of what a sale means." "You have to have higher margins and you need to build a better brand." "A lot of founders don't realize, like when you sell, you know what's interesting, Chris, is people don't actually… they, they don't think deep enough of what a sale means." "Everybody should be ready to sell."

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hey, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com.

Chris Voss. Chris Voss. Ladies and gentlemen, the earliest thing that makes it live. We're coming to you live from the Chris Voss Show Studios here in Burbank. No, I was born in Burbank, but we're not really in Hollywood. Anyway, guys, so we have an amazing show for you with an amazing mind. He's going to be sharing all of his insights, his intellect. And when you leave, you're going to be building multi-billion dollar businesses too.

So he's going to teach you everything you need to know. Luke, I just put a lot of work up there for you. I put a weight on my shoulders. Oh, what kind of show do I sign up for? Yeah. Anyway, we're going to be talking to him about all of his insights and improving the quality of your life too and how you can maybe work with him.

In the meantime, go to goodreads.com, forrestscrisvosslinkedin.com, forrestscrisvoss, crisvoss1, the TikTokity, and all those crazy places on the internet we have today an amazing young man joining with us and we're going to be talking about his insights and everything that goes into what he does luke peters is on the show with us today he's an accomplished entrepreneur and the former ceo of new air a company he founded 2001 and grew from a garage status to a thriving business with over $600 million in cumulative sales. His journey began in Fountain Valley, California,

where he learned the value of hard work while working in his family's donut shop. I did that as a kid. My uncle had a donut shop. It was kind of fun. Oh, nice. It was kind of fun. That's where I learned about the five-minute rule. If you drop a donut on the floor, you can still pick it up and eat it.

It's good enough to send out to the front. I don't know. It was the 70s. It's no longer the five-second rule. Yeah. It was the 80s. They did weird shit with food. Under Luke's leadership, New Era achieved significant milestones,

including $80 million in sales this single year, multiple placements on the Inc. 500 list. He successfully built the company from 100% B2C model to a multi-channel strategy, parting with major retailers like Home Depot and Amazon. Welcome to the show. How are you, Luke? Doing great, Chris. Really a pleasure to be on. Pleasure to have you as well. And yeah, so we're going to learn about all the stuff you're doing.

Give us a dot coms. Where do you want people to find you on the inter And yeah, so we're going to learn about all the stuff you're doing. Give us a.com. Where do you want people to find you on the interweb, which is in the sky? Yeah, right now it's easy. Just find me on LinkedIn at Luke Peters or apexceo.co. So give us a 30,000 overview of your new project, what you're doing now, and how you're doing it. Yeah, you know, I ran that company for 20 years. Chris sold it. I was really, really fortunate. Learned a lot of things. Started it with no funding, okay, out of a garage with a family and then retained all of the equity and then sold

with private equity. Took a couple of years off. I like to surf, so I did some surfing, did some traveling, did some fun trips and back working again. So now I'm coaching, advising CEOs, hopefully getting them to the exit as well. Get to the exit. That's right. Isn't that a get to the chopper? That's what I'm thinking of. You've been on quite the journey.

And tell us a little bit about, in your words, your upbringing and kind of how you went through your life. What got you started being an entrepreneur, maybe with some influences, et cetera, et cetera? Sure. So growing up, yeah, Chris, you won't believe this. So growing up, I was in a family of 12. Okay. Yeah. In, in Fountain Valley. Okay. This is in Southern California. So family of 12, big family. So you had to, you know, you had to fight for everything when you're in a big family like that. Right. Yeah. So it's, and we all get along, you know, it's a great family dynamic, but anyways, we all work. That's too bad.

Let's see. Yeah. They're good. They're going to family.. If you all get along, that seems really, I don't know. Unusual. It's very unusual, actually. But I'm putting you on. Yeah. So, yeah. So that was, you know, of course, that, you know, that kind of imprints you with a lot, right? And we have the paper routes and all those types of things.

But my parents had a donut shop. So that's what we grew up. I mean, I I'm in the donut shop and I'm not kidding you. I'm like 10, maybe 10, 12 years old. My dad's paying me a 25 cents an hour and there's a, and I'm working graveyard flipping donuts. And there's a bar right behind us that closes at two in the morning. And, and, you know, all the drunk patrons come out and they're ordering donuts. I mean, you learn the facts of life. Let's, Let's put it that way. Hey, I told you not to tell people that I was drunk and ordering donuts, man. That's what we meant.

Yep, in the chocolate filled aisle. I don't know what that means. But yeah, so you go from donuts to building your own companies. Yeah, so I, you know, somehow made it through high school, at least likely to graduate, and then went to college, got a degree, studied microbiology. I really love science, so that was fun. Went to work for the government as a hazardous waste scientist, doing good things. Not doing very much, unfortunately, but a good idea at the government to clean up the groundwater. And anyways, I went to school.

I'm driving a beat-up truck, you know, went to school, I'm driving a beat up truck, you know, hour and a half to get to work. And my little brother didn't go to school is doing some internet business, making a lot of money driving a nice sports car. So that I was like, wait a minute, you know, something's not right here. Learned what he was doing, which looked a lot more fun than what I was doing. And burned the midnight oil, started the business at that time. So basically I think we had, we had two kids. This is like right after 2001 or right around 2001, two kids and just started doing the, you know, building the website and everything. And then my wife, they would answer phone calls as they would come in and she would actually deliver the products. She would have, yeah, she'd actually go to Granger. We were, we were just

basically arbitraging at the beginning, just buying stuff from Grainger, which is a commercial version of Home Depot, and reselling their stuff online. And yeah, that's how we started. But of course, later on, we built a brand and started importing product and built a large company. Yeah. And it all starts from that thing. And you come a long way from that. Was it 25 cents an hour? Yeah, 25 cents. I never let that one go.

Yeah. I mean, I think people complain about stuff now. I think when I started out, I was 16 and you couldn't work unless you were 18. But you could work in the back end of a grocery store store like in the stocking it at night but you couldn't work during the day in the front it was like really weird i don't know don't yeah don't we can't see your child labor and if we don't see your child labor that is fine i don't know what yeah put them in the back yeah let's put the 16 year olds in the back it was kind of like a puffy combs p diddy thing i don't know what i don't know what that means anyway those of you who that's going on right now those of you watching the video 10 years from now we have a lot of them youtube people watch videos from 10 years ago they go

that's not going on that's not a new book you're like dude look at the date anyway so yeah it's it didn't get paid well so you you your different companies and you've, how many successful exits have you had so far? I know we had a few in the bio, I think. Yeah, no, I had, I have. So actually when I was in college, this is not a big exit, but I paid my way through school with a pool, a swimming pool business, you know, had my own service, built up a clientele and actually sold that business to a buddy who still runs it today now now 20 years later. And then as I'm growing NewAir, I actually had started other companies within it or even separate companies as a test, like to go into a new market. At one point, we had a big pivot and we went into multi-channel, so direct into retailers instead of selling

online. And that works so well. And so I've rolled those businesses all into NewAir. So at the end, everything was rolled into NewAir and then sold that to private equity. Oh, wow. It's pretty wild, all the stuff that's out there and what you can take and do. So now you've started your own company. Tell us what the future is this. What are you focusing on in services and things you're going to provide to people? Yeah, sure. So when I was running New Air, like at the beginning, like I didn't have any formal business training, right? So I had to learn everything along the way. And really the last five years, I learned a lot more. I wanted to sell my company and I'll get to what I'm doing now. I wanted to sell my company and I got, and someone looked at the business and they gave

me some great advice. And in a nutshell, they basically said, you need to have higher margins and you need to build a better brand because if your margins aren't that great, it's basically telling the world that your brand isn't that strong and you got to have systems and you're going to get, you need to be auditable and all these types of things. So I spent five years really cleaning up my company. Okay. Getting the best people, building out great systems, putting in a new ERP, improving margins, like all of these things that you have to do to sort of get to the exit. And that that's what I want to bring to this

practice where I work directly with CEOs. A lot of founders don't realize like when you sell, you know, it's interesting, Chris is that people don't actually, they don't think deep enough of what a sale means. So let's say you're, let's just use like a $1 million number, right? Let's say your company's making a million dollars, let's say just for a round number. And okay. And let's say you're selling a product. Okay. It's not a service because a service, most of it can go to the bottom line, but you're selling a product. Okay. It's not a service because a service, most of it can go to the bottom line, but you're selling a product. Okay. So you have to have people, infrastructure, you know, inventory, maybe things like that. Right.

So you're making a million, but you're probably having to reinvest back in your company. You are paying taxes and maybe you're putting something in your pocket at the end of the day. Maybe you're putting a couple hundred thousand in if you're growing. So you're making a million, but you're only getting a couple hundred thousand in your pocket. If your business has a five times multiple on a million dollars, now you're going to get paid 5X and it could be 7X, it could be 10X, right? But there's also, you're potentially going to have ad backs, which are things like sort of one-time expenses. So like your million dollars really to an investor could mean, because there's synergies between you and the investor, right?

Maybe they, you know, the way that you're doing, that you had to invest in your warehouse or some of these investments they don't have to do. So you can add those back. So now your 1 million might be 1.2 million. Everybody has ad backs. And so now you're multiplying that by five. See, so maybe you're at a $6 million deal. And then you're going to pay capital gains on that instead of ordinary income. So your taxes are lower. So at the end of the day, you were making in your pocket, maybe 200,000 in that example, in your bank account. And here you could have in one day pull in 6 million, you know, minus some capital gains taxes. So it's a, it's a huge win. And then multiply that, if your company's doing 5 million or 10 million EBITDA. So it's a, it's a, it's way bigger than

the win on, on your sale is way bigger than just a five or seven or an eight X multiple. It's way bigger than that because you have other things that come into play and you pull forward like 10, 15 years of time earnings is the way I look at it. So, so that, that's what I want to get them to. Like the way that I work is most business CEOs will,

you know, they, they, they have a lot of problems, but the problem is they have a lot of problems and really only two or three is what they should be working on. Like those are the ones that are going to make a money. They're always, people are always working on things that aren't making you money, right? We're working on these distractions. And so it's about getting focused. And I have a sort of a framework called, it basically is, I call it APPM. So it's alignment, product,

people, and margins. That's what I focus on. Alignment, product, people, margins. Why are those three things so important? Okay. They're important because a lot of frameworks have 10 things you got to jump into. They're too complex, right? And when you think about, and a lot of them don't, two of the things in here are often not worked on or not focused on, let's say, so it's your product. Okay. And also the margins that I know they're talked about, but I'm saying like literally really, really understanding your margins from the bottom up, you go at the transaction level, all the way through all of the parties that are involved in that transaction. At every single transaction in your company, can you trace the margin on that?

Most companies cannot. Even Fortune 500 companies cannot do this. So if you can, maybe the goal isn't to do that 100% of the time, but if you can do that on select transactions, you can learn a lot about your business. You go through transactions, you're like, wow, I didn't realize I was losing out here and this was costing me here. And I thought I was going to make 40% margin and here I'm only making 25% margin. And a lot of times people think they know this, but they don't know it for every transaction. So that margin in understanding it at the transactional level with all of the interparties that are involved is super important. Product.

A lot of times, you know, the product is usually the creative vision of the entrepreneur. Okay, so that's the entrepreneur's secret sauce. They should be working on product. They shouldn't be working on HR and operations and all this kind of stuff. And a lot of times, entrepreneurs will start a business and their product, you know, it's going great. And then what happens, they get busy and they're kind of like this, you know, their products are getting old. They're not launching new products.

You want to have, you want to be, you want to be swinging for singles and doubles, but you also want to be swinging for home runs. So you got to have some home run products that are being nurtured. You know, we call that new product development. And so just understanding product, you know, I always say, you know, it's kind of like a football analogy, you know, you have to win at every position in football, you know, your O-line and your blocks and every position matters, you know, when you're at the goal line, let's say, and at your products, a lot of people,

maybe they have a hundred products or whatever it is, but they have 10 winners, but they got 90 losers, you know, so you have to look at every one of your product, why it's a winner, why it's a loser, why it's losing, how you can turn it into a winner. Too many times you look at the business, right? But that's too broad. You got to get down right to each product, right in the trenches.

And then alignment in people. So alignment basically means it's communication. So it actually can be real simple, but this is, this means get all of your team aligned towards the most important goals, which sounds obvious, but a lot of times entrepreneurs don't actually, first of all, they need to take the time to decide what are the most important goals. Okay. That's strategic planning. And then you have to get your team on board. So a lot of times they dictate, hey, this is what we're doing. But no, you want to sort of – you want to kind of come up with these goals,

but the trick is you've got to have your team arrive at them independently and get your team on the bus, right? You've got to get the buy-in. You've got to get the buy-in. If you don't get the buy-in, you've got to get the buy-in, and hopefully you can even get skin in the game. If there's a big outcome, your leadership team is going to make a lot of money. That's what we're all after. And then people. We want money?

Everybody wants money. Listen, we're all motivated by being appreciated, but at the end of the day, you've got to pay the bills. So everybody wants money. That's true. Everyone wants money. But you're right. You have to have the buy-in. You've got to have everybody. You've got to evaluate stuff. What you speak of is what I sell a lot. One of the things that we used to do back in the day was we'd buy companies that were in trouble. So we ran out of the paper and said, we have money in loan for people that are having trouble with their business. Contact us. And it was wild because we'd have people calling us needing desperate help for their companies,

and they would literally send us everything you could never get anyone to send you on their company, like their P&Ls, all that stuff. And then they would just freely send it over without even asking. You're just like, wow, okay, that's a lot of information you just gave me. And so we could cherry pick what we wanted. But nine times out of ten, when I would approach companies that we would want to invest in, nine times out of ten, I'd go meet with the entrepreneur. And literally, most times, they would be using the same business model that they started with.

And they just had cash when they started their company, and they were just burning it into the ground on a burn rate. And they were finally running out of money. Sometimes it was a thing where maybe the first year it kind of worked, or sometimes it worked, and then all of a sudden the market changed. But nine times out of ten, they were still in the same business model they started out with, and that was the problem. They hadn't really analyzed what they were doing. They hadn't done what you talked about where they're like, you know, adjusting for, you know, future proofing, market conditions, changing things. They just don't plan for any of it. They just figure that they've got enough money to burn through it and somehow they'll find a profitable thing

before they burn out their burn rate, I guess. And, you know, so nine times times out of ten i'd show up and i'd be like wow you really you've got something here that's pretty much in bankruptcy you just haven't figured it out yet you got maybe three months to hit the wall and you know i'd find them i'd find you know their family is working there i'd and and all the 99.9 percent of the time i don't think there was ever a time where we we like, you need to stay. 99% of the time, we'd be like, we'll buy out your shit and save you from bankruptcy and save your credit. We'll give you maybe, I don't know, some little bit of walking money. But right now, we're just buying a bankrupt company.

And you're the problem, so you have to leave. That was really hard for them to hear. And your family needs to leave, too. That was really hard for them to hear and your family needs to leave too that was really hard for them to hear and then a lot of times they'd be like if you see value in it then there must be something here and i'm like no you're not gonna find it because you're you need to go back to mcdonald's you really suck at this and so i give him a i give him a first right of refusal. Was it first right of refusal thing? Contract and say, and I tell him, I'd be like, call me first as soon as you possibly can.

Because don't call me a week before bankruptcy court because I can save you now, but I probably can't save you a week before bankruptcy court. And sure enough, they go try and find what, you know, we had multiple companies and, and multiple stuff. So stuff so a lot of stuff we were you know just find people that were asset rich and cash poor we'd fold it into our companies and you know they always call me right before the week before bankruptcy hey you want to buy me now what did i tell you don't do that and it was just crazy man it's just people that just couldn't get it. And they would ride that model into the fucking ground before they would change. Yeah, I believe it. You know what I think, Chris? I think one thing we didn't talk about, but I think a big part of this is the mental game.

Okay. I think handling stress and anxiety. Okay. I think sometimes when entrepreneurs have a hard time, like anybody, when you have a hard time and you're stressed and nervous, like those emotions can take over and you're not thinking right. So you have to have a way to, to pull yourself out of that and think logically. And sometimes people just, and when you're stressed, you know, you can't change either. It's like, you're just like locked in, stressed, anxious. It's, it's a bad, it's, it's like a circle of death there. So it's, it's not a good place to be.

The circle of death. Yeah. It's a, to never get in the circle of death yeah it's a never get in the circle of death yeah i mean people you know i've had companies where for 10 years or so maybe 13 everything runs smooth you know the business model is working you know everything's just a smooth engine you got all the kinks worked out and then suddenly the market changes you know maybe interest rates change maybe something is dynamic in the market maybe new technology i mean ai is definitely disrupting a lot of things right now and probably going to continue to do but you know you've got to be able to adjust you've got to be able looking on the horizon for what's there and then of course you've got to have your your team

be able to do a buy-in yeah there's a there a great book by Andy Grove. It's called Only the Paranoid Survive. Andy Grove. Yeah, it's a fantastic book. He was the CEO of Intel, I think back in like the 90s, maybe 80s, 90s. I subscribe to that book. Okay. I'm going to grab it and read it because we used to have this thing where we would call it look in the dragon's mouth and make the decision. So when we would make big decisions, we would sit and do what we call look in the dragon's mouth. And we'd try and pick it apart and be like, okay, if we fail, can we live with this? If we, you know, spend this massive expenditure and it doesn't roi on us can we survive and if we could live with the fallout if things didn't work we'd usually move forward so we were always paranoid

yeah yeah i love it well now one thing we've alluded to is the exiting process starting a company and thinking about when you start it about how you can exit it and setting up so you can have a you know you can have an exit you can pass off right now and let's get into a little bit of that because i as i told you before in the green room i used to have this this whole entrepreneur vision of creating an empire of companies which i did but 2008 came along and said why don't you just take that and go fuck yourself you're gonna wipe the map and you can start over, bitch. And so I did because I really didn't have an option. And, you know, one of our biggest crown jewels was a mortgage company.

So that didn't work out well. Yeah, not good timing. Did good for the first 20 years. After that, nah. So you've got to be ready for those changes. Talk to us about the importance of preparing for an exit and thinking about, instead of thinking like I do where you're building an empire forever, turning over these companies. One thing that's interesting is that if you are successfully running a company with good margins, let's say upper quartile of your industry, and you're not at the center of it. Obviously, for a podcast media, that's hard to do. But a business where you have a product, you're not at the center of it, obviously, you know, for podcast media, that's, that's hard to do. But, but, you know, a business where you have a product, you're not at the center

of it, you have a good management team, and your margins are good. And the business is not too that you don't have too much customer concentration. So you have some diversification on, you know, so think of all these things as de-risking your business, right? So an investor looks at it, you're like, my business is great. They don't care. They don't know you. Of course, that's what you're going to say. But from an analytical standpoint, what they look at is de-risking. All of those elements de-risk your business. So if you have one big client and everybody else is small, I mean, you have issues. Or if you're the person who does all the work in your company. Exactly. Because they know when they buy you, you know, you might run,

you might take off. So the, the idea is you risk it. Yeah. Well, time to go surfing. So yeah, you have, you have to de-risk it. And so even if you don't want to sell, you should do all these things because one day you might want to sell. There could be a health issue. There could be anything could come up in your personal life. You're like, oh, man, you know, my kids don't want to take it over or I don't have family to take it or whatever the case is. And you have this asset.

And now you have to go figure out how to sell. But you could do these things ahead of time. So that's I know every entrepreneur isn't saying, oh, I want to go sell. But my philosophy is everybody should be ready to sell. Yeah. I mean, especially if you can get four or five times your multiple or more, whatever. Yeah. In some industries, it's a lot more. What happens is there's certain breakpoints. So if you're, let's say you're 500,000 to say 3 million, you're likely to be acquired by another company, probably not private equity at that point. So the smaller businesses, and we're talking about that's your profit, 500,000 to 3

million. And they look at EBITDA. Sometimes they'll look at seller discretionary earnings, or they'll have different names, SDE, but essentially your profit with some things added back. And once you get over 5 million or right about 5 million, now you're private equity territory. So the multiples go up a little bit because there's more players, there's more bidders in the industry. And then once you're over 10 or 15 million EBITDA, now you go to even another level of multiple. So just think of everything as a multiple on your earnings. And for some businesses, it might be two you know, two, three, four or five at the lower range. And then it might go up to four, five, six, seven, eight at the mid range. And then it could go over

10 to 12 once you start making 10, 15 million. And this is, this is selling a product. And if you're selling software, it's a totally different valuation model. You know, that's based on, you know, it's not based on your EBITDA. You can make a lot more. It could be based on your top line. It could be based on reoccurring revenue multiples and lots of ways to win on that side. So people need to think about this in the future. How can people onboard with you?

What type of people do you work with? Do they have a minimum, like a minimum net worth, all that stuff? How does that work? Sure. I think I'm a good fit. I always subscribe by my business. I ran it from garage up to about $80 million. So I think I'm great for anybody in that range.

When I'm at a networking event, I always want to go to the room with the richer people in it, let's say, and try to learn from them. So I think I'm good there. And if someone's doing $100 million, $200 million, they probably can find, you know, somebody who's coaching those larger companies. But I like the founder CEO, you know, someone who's bootstrapped it, someone who maybe they don't have funding or very little funding. They're on their own. They're trying to work with banks or cash flow and grow their business. And they've got dreams and goals. And I can, you know, I can, the way I think about it is you actually, most, most CEOs

are working too many hours. You know, I can put in just really changing your mindset and put systems in place and a different way of thinking and getting the right people. And you can actually reduce your time at the office, improve your life, more time at your hobbies and family, and have your business grow at the same time. So it's kind of in that zone of founder all the way up to the 50, 70, 80 million. It's been very insightful to have you on. People can do a free strategy call with you, it looks like, on your website as well too. too exactly yeah go hop over to apexceo.co there's a calendar there free strategy call and and actually if you if you go into that call i

can give you one of our planning documents and go over on the call yeah there you go free strategy call get a free planning document on how to plan your stuff and you know if you don't have a plan, what's that old line? People who fail to plan, plan to fail. That's it. I think it's been very insightful to have you on the show. Pitch people out your.com there so people can pick it up one last time and we'll head out. Apexceo.co. Thanks, Chris. Really appreciate it. And find me on LinkedIn. Thank you, Luke. And check them out on LinkedIn as well. Thanks, guys, for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com, 4chesschrisfoss, linkedin.com, 4chesschrisfoss,

chrisfoss1, the TikTokity, and all those crazy places on the internet. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time. That should have us out. Fun is fun.