The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Michael Sakata Dives Deep into Infrastructure Challenges in Maryland and America

Episode Date: June 21, 2024

Michael Sakata Dives Deep into Infrastructure Challenges in Maryland and America Mtbma.org About the Guest(s): Michael Sakata is the President and CEO of the Maryland Transportation Builders and Materials Association (MTBMA). Boasting over 20 years in the transportation sector, Michael has driven record membership growth and advocates for 35,000 workers and business owners. His impactful partnerships include appointments by Maryland Governors Wes Moore and Larry Hogan. Michael previously held significant roles at the American Road and Transportation Builders Association and has received accolades for innovation. He holds a degree from George Mason University and an Executive Education Certificate from Yale School of Management. Episode Summary: In this enlightening episode of The Chris Voss Show, Chris is joined by Michael Sakata, President and CEO of the Maryland Transportation Builders and Materials Association. Michael shares deep insights into the intricacies of infrastructure management, the state of US infrastructure, and the critical need for investments and innovations in this sector. The conversation ranges from specifics about local infrastructure projects to broader discussions about federal funding mechanisms and the challenges of maintaining and upgrading transportation systems. The episode kicks off with Chris and Michael discussing the importance of infrastructure and the repercussions of failures like the Francis Scott Key Bridge incident. Michael addresses the current state of infrastructure in the US and underscores the necessity for sustained funding and innovative solutions to overcome the challenges posed by outdated systems and modern-day needs. They also delve into the intricacies of the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act (IIJA) and its impact on infrastructure projects across the nation. Other topics include the role of public-private partnerships, the influence of electric vehicles on gas tax revenue, and the critical importance of active citizen engagement in lobbying for better infrastructure. Key Takeaways: Infrastructure's Critical Role: Michael stresses that robust infrastructure is essential for economic stability and public safety, reflecting on the devastating impact of infrastructural failures like the Francis Scott Key Bridge. Federal and State Funding: Federal funding, largely stagnated since 1993 without increased gas taxes, is insufficient alone. States need to find innovative funding solutions to supplement these shortfalls. Public-Private Partnerships (P3s): P3s are highlighted as an essential strategy for developing infrastructure quickly, though they come with long-term costs and commitments. Impact of Electric Vehicles (EVs): EVs, due to their lower contribution to gas taxes and heavy weight, pose unique challenges for infrastructure funding and maintenance. Actionable Advocacy: Engaging with legislators to emphasize the importance of infrastructure funding is crucial for sustaining and improving transportation systems. Notable Quotes: "Infrastructure improvements are essential to move us from a C rating to something more respectable, ensuring the economic well-being and safety of our nation." "The federal gas tax hasn't increased since 1993, and this stagnation is a significant hurdle for funding infrastructure." "Public-private partnerships can fast-track infrastructure projects, but come with the obligation of long-term tolls and private management." "Electric vehicles, despite their environmental benefit, are not contributing similarly to infrastructure maintenance due to their minimal gas tax payments." "It's vital for citizens to lobby their legislators for improved infrastructure funding – our roads, bridges, and overall transport systems depend on it."

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. There you go, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the big show. We certainly appreciate you guys coming by. As always, the Chris Voss Show, it's a guy that loves you but doesn ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the big show. We certainly appreciate you guys coming by.

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episodes we bring you the smartest most brightest brilliant people who give you the ideas to change your life share their stories with you and everything else and we're doing that again we have michael cicada the president and CEO of the Maryland Transportation Builders Association on the show with us today. We're talking about what he does and how he does it. I think I cut off part of that in the title, so we'll get into it. Michael is the president and CEO of the Maryland Transportation Builders and Materials Association, otherwise known as the MTBA.

He boasts over 20 years. He's very boastful. No, I'm just kidding. He's not. He's a wonderful, humble guy. He has been over 20 years in the transportation sector. He has spurred record membership growth and advocates for 35,000 workers and business owners. His tenure creates impactful partnerships and serving on multiple state tax task forces including appointments by Governor Wes Moore and Larry Hogan. Previously he held significant roles at the American Road and Transportation Builders Association and received accolades for his innovation. He's a project management professional who holds a degree from George Mason University and executive education certificate from Yale School of Management.

Welcome to the show, Michael. How are you? I'm great. How can I not be after that wonderful authoritative introduction? By the way, Chris, I've heard you provide that service for people to be introduced as they walk into the room. We're working on that. But, Michael, give us your dot coms. Where can you find people on the interwebs?

M-T-B-M-A dot org. That's kind of easy. You find all our information there. There you go. Yep. There you go. I think it was Obama who said there was somebody who said, what was the hardest thing about leaving the presidency? And I think it was Obama's like, every time I walk in a room, music doesn't play anymore.

It's kind of funny, but yeah, we're working on a service where we're just going to charge people to introduce them whenever they walk into a room. If you're walking to your kitchen, we'll just announce your wife and kids. And here now to bless you with his gracious countenance is your father. Yeah. Yeah. You just need that. You just need that to play every time.

And like some music that comes up and, you know, is on a crescendo. So, you know, just like you're walking onto a show. So, Michael, give us a 30,000 overview of what you guys do there at Maryland Transportation Builders and Materials Association. Yeah, so I appreciate that. You know, we're a trade organization. We've been around since 1932, so quite some time. I haven't been around that long, but we've got great folks who are around the transportation construction industry. That's all the contractors, engineers, the line stripers, everybody who has to do with the horizontal

construction. And we provide a lot of advocacy efforts, but also to, you know, information on ensuring how these folks run their business, run their business. A lot of states add specifications and changes all the time. And so we keep on top of that and make sure, you know, they're building that road, that airport, that bike pad facility. There you go. And infrastructure is so important. I mean, there in Maryland, you guys are in your state in that area you guys had the crash of the francis scott key bridge and the whole thing there with the i don't know the people were just boating and i don't know they're back in the back drinking or something i don't know i'm just making up shit people don't write me and and how does something like that really impact

infrastructure in a state like yours they were were drinking or doing something, right? We might be parting to a lawsuit here in a little bit. They were probably playing tic-tac-toe or I don't know. They were watching TikTok probably. They were doing something. That's an interesting bridge, an interesting port facility. The Baltimore port, by the way, is a number one roll-on, roll-off and a whole other accolades that that port has been doing a great job jonathan daniels over heading the port steve johnson those folks are awesome to work with or work for you know but the fsk bridge you know it's um a 1.6 mile bridge and it's a unique kind of monument and it's a steel kind of a testament to to to baltimore right that crossing between balt, Baltimore County,

and by the way, passed through a small portion of Anne Arundel County. So really that bridge is owned by three different entities, but managed by the tolling authority, MBTA. And by the way, that $191 million a day is what that cost. Having that area cost, our region. And that doesn't even count angry commuters who have more road rage now. Well, 100%. 30,000 people, by the way, cross the bridge daily.

That's crazy. Now they're finding their way, using W using ways I'm sure are doing different things. But, you know, that that that commute is a lot worse for a lot more people. And it just kind of really focuses, you know, the federal government, the local government on resiliency. Right. What else can we do? You know, those dolphins now hear about all these dolphins, which are the little things that protect the bridges from disasters. Yeah. I mean, I imagine around, I hope around the country, people like yourselves who monitor and infrastructure is an important deal and making sure that the country runs well. You know, I hope they're starting to look at how do we prevent this disaster from happening anywhere else.

100%. I know Federal Highways is helping these states to look at the importance of ensuring they have that resiliency built in and supports built in. Yeah, because if you don't, I mean, we don't need this to become a thing or a terrorist target. I hate to have to say that, but that's one of the reasons they targeted 9-11. And, you know, we don't need this to become a new thing that they're all after. You know, hitting bridges and stuff. I know there's a bridge that's much like the Francis Scott Key Bridge in terms of its importance to infrastructure. It's the one that goes over, I believe, between Canada and maybe the Detroit area, Michigan.

It's one of those. And there was a bunch of the truckers back a ways back that were blocking it. And it was like the number one feed of import between us and Canada that they were blocking. These bridges are like really important. It seems like we should have some backup bridges. Kind of like you have backup hard drives, you know? Yeah. Backup your data. Maybe we should have backup backup bridges kind of like you have backup hard drives you know yeah back up your data maybe we should have backup bridges i like that backup bridges i mean what's going on man i'm not i'm not in infrastructure but i we need some backup

bridges backup bridges i agree to me that's a single point of failure right i mean definitely so what is the state of infrastructure in this country? How is it going? I know there were some bills passed that were supposed to do some stuff, but how is it all working out? Yeah, you know, I would say it's a – our state is mixed, right? We've had improvements on our many roads, our bridges, our transportation systems, but they still need major upgrades. The bill that you referred to, the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, IIJA, certainly provided funding, essential funding, leading to these significant

improvements in our transportation, but broadband and water systems you know the scale assists of our challenges means we still need kind of ongoing support and investment the american society of civil engineers by the way rates our infrastructure in that c range indicating much work needs to be done and i would say yeah we need that address the long-term needs and future challenges get that work done so was there was there enough money put in that bill or was it kind of just a band-aid sort of thing? You know, it was the largest investment since the initial interstate highway system.

You know, it was a significant increase. However, you look at labor, you look at cost of materials, you look at these things also had a had a negative impact on the the the overall focus of that that bill you know yes it may have been large dollars but in a day you know we still need more definitely yeah i and i think you know you can travel the roadways of this country and you can see the dilapidated overpasses, things falling off. I mean, there's plenty of news articles about this.

You know, and we've spent so much money in wars. I mean, trillions, $8 trillion, $12 trillion between Iraq and Afghanistan and some of these wars, and yet we're just falling apart from the inside, socially and infrastructure-wise, if you're checking your latest news. Specifically in Maryland, you know, there's a billion dollar hole in our six year transportation plan. And you add things like the Francis Scott Key Bridge, another bridge, American Legion Bridge, you know,

a couple of transit lines in there and you're equal up to $10 billion in a hole. And, you know these these projects need significant funding but also they need that those champions right at the federal state level to kind of move them over and get them done let me ask you this does does the biggest things that you know you need to raise the most money from for for for these infrastructure projects is it federal or is it local governments? Who needs to really step up for this? So, you know, that's an interesting question, right?

How we get money at the federal level is through things like the IAJA, right? But how they get funded is through gas tax, okay? Oh, yeah. Gas tax has not increased since 1993. It's at $0. Oh yeah. Gas tax has not increased since 1993. It's at 1939 cents. So for every gallon you pay, you pay, you know,

1939 at the pump going to the federal gas tax at local level. There's a few, there's bonds, there's initiatives, and there's also local gas tax. So that 19 cents in some States could be 40, could be 45, could be up to 50, 60 cents.

And that pays for the local infrastructure. There you go. To answer your question, too, also the federal investment on average is 53% of the road or infrastructure dollars. 53% of that comes from the federal government. And it's kind of interesting politicians don't like to mess with that because because then consumers really it seems to really impact consumers like right away they're like where the gas prices go to hell yeah they don't they definitely since it hasn't been increased since 1993 right i mean that's

that's a long time and to have that conversation you, we rely a lot on our federal partners to do. But, yeah, they're not have been willing to raise it. And to your point, what do you and I look at inflation wise? Right. We look at the cost of milk. We cost the gas. Right. And those two things are definitely in the minds and ears of politicians, especially running for reelection. Yeah, I know at one point during, I don't know, kind of some of the crisis after COVID or during COVID or something, the Biden administration and politicians were talking about, I think, suspending gas taxes on a federal level.

That was being kicked around. Is it better to do, you know, like California I know has toll freeways and roads. I think there's other states that do it. Are those better? Are those a better way to apply those sort of costs or not, do you think? So tollways really depends on who's doing it, right? Maryland's the only state that has the ability to set their own rates. Other states don't.

They rely on third-party folks who have what's demand tolling, which in a way, think about it, they want to maintain that 55, 65 miles an hour or so. If there's a flood of folks on there, those prices will increase. But as, and consequently, the speed will decrease, you know, you want to keep it at that 55 mile per hour within that, you know, that is, those are called, traditionally called public-private partnerships, right? So a company can come in and, you know, build that lane and then charge for it. The benefits of that is that you can get an asset quickly, right? You can get an asset paid for by that entity and you build it now. And that money though is not in that state's budget, right? So they can offload that. That's a benefit, right? But the negative,

now that you're paying, they have a lease on that asset for the next 50 years, most cases. You know, you're stuck with paying that for the next 50 years or that state, the individuals who use that roadway. So they've been creative about when you're adding hot lanes is what they call them. You also add general purpose lanes. You can increase that. Oh, so they're using the money to expand the highway in and of itself on top of the expressways or the purpose lanes? Exactly. Yeah. So it's an innovative way. I mean, when done right, it can be a success for both sides, right? For the owner agency and for the consumers and for the people who are putting it together,

that construction team. There you go. In California, there was a couple freeways, especially one in SoCal, I think out in Irvine or south of Irvine, where I didn't mind paying a premium to be on those toll roads because usually there was almost no one on them and usually it had kind of more of a direct way to get to places. And I didn't mind paying the premium. It was worth it, you know.

And so I think a lot of people, you know, I don't know. That's just how I roll. I'm willing to pay extra for convenience and luxury, but maybe some people aren't. Maybe some people love traffic. You're right. Agreed. It's interesting you say that.

You know, folks who use these lanes too are folks who need to get to and from jobs quickly. Imagine if I can get there at it, I know when I can get there. What's the most anxiety-driven thing about driving? Not knowing it's going to take half hour or an hour, right? Having those hot lanes allows you to have an option. I think that's ultimately, you know, if I want to pay a little extra today to use it, great. You know, maybe not on a Saturday morning, but yeah. Yeah, it just kind of depends.

Let's see. How has infrastructure spending evolved over the past decade? Is things getting better? Are we, you know, are we moving on from these wars and everything else we used to spend money on? Jason been laundering around. Yeah, you know, past decade, infrastructure spending has seen its fluctuations. We've seen continuing resolutions, we've seen like the FAST Act, we've seen certain things like the IIJ, that Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, you know, it's provided that much needed funding, but, you know, they've still fallen short. So I don't think, you know, they've evolved in a sense of focusing on the state and government and having them play crucial roles.

Stepping up for the federal funding has lagged. You know, we're still seeing, you know, that growing recognition of importance and sustained investment infrastructure. But it, you know, it still needs to grow. Definitely. I mean, it seems like we ignored, is it pretty true we ignored infrastructure

for, I don't know, 40 plus years? You know, not everybody would agree with that because there has been some construction and there has been a decent amount. If you look at, you know, not everybody would agree with that because there has been some construction and there has been a decent amount. If you look at, you know, the bridges and these that need repair, 100%, I would say that, you know, as a whole, we have neglected kind of a long term outlook on our infrastructure spending. And that's kind of where I wouldn't say we've neglected as a whole. We've kept up this thing called system preservation. Sure say we've neglected as a whole we've kept up and there's a thing called system preservation sure we've dipped some drabs and helped it along

you know but you know have we you know look at around the world where they've surpassed us in high-speed rail and all these things for how many years and now they're just doing it in california i think yeah right 40 years later 40 years later yeah yeah in a way if we have but in in also you know we've definitely kind of kept it um so do you think that you know I mean one of the things about Japan and other places that have China that have high-speed rail of course China can do whatever it wants because you know it, it's like, hey, we're going to take your apartment and just move it and put high-speed rail in. So have fun with that.

But I think China, you know, they always had public transportation and rail going back pre-war. So they always kind of were, you know, they had that, what would you call it, that foundation to work from. I think for us, you know, one of the biggest problems is trying to figure out how to do that with, we basically have to make new infrastructure, new foundation if we're trying to go high-speed rail, right? 100%. I mean, you look at these tracks that were laid, you know, a long time ago.

You need to, you know, straighten them the in order to get up to the high speed rail but you all high speeds but you also need to long distances right we can't have commuter lines using high speed rail you need to have you know that dc to new york kind of connection as in you know la to california right and i think there's also some conversation about you know where the stops are for that high-speed rail. Was it a random town in California, right? I mean, to me, you need to make sure that those advocates

are there pushing for that and the need for it. Yeah. We should just make it so they can jump out as the train is moving somehow and just throw parachutes on them or something. I don't know. That is a designated butcher right yeah we'll let ace ai solve this i'm sure it'll be fine oh yeah randomly just jump out

after the after this show i'm gonna get on chat gpt and ask the ai to to tell me to give me some ways to fit that people can do that and we'll see what it comes up with i'm afraid very afraid so what could go wrong so with this with with high-speed rail i mean i guess we just have to kind of bag that for now i mean i if that like you said if that thing ever gets done in california i've lived in vegas for 20 years and that conversation about running high-speed rail between us and vegas i mean it would be a dream i'm still just shocked that there's only like in the road in the freeway between vegas and california there's sometimes only two lanes and i'm like are you are you serious there's there's nothing out here what the fuck and and i've i've been on

sundays you don't leave vegas on sunday and i've been on that road on Sundays, and I've had it be a parking lot from the moment I left Vegas to the moment I arrived in San Bernardino coming out of that pass. And it was just parking 10 miles an hour the whole time, 20 miles an hour the whole time. It was insane. I think it took, I don't know, it took a lot more hours than it should have. So I think it was double the hours. But know it's stuff like that you just see it and you're just like what the hell you know thankfully in in states like mine las vegas we have the we have the casinos

that pay for everything so we have all these brand new freeways and bridges everything's freaking new here they just they just throw stuff up and tear it down like it's going out of style here so maybe everyone just needs casinos and speaking of that what is the future of funding is the casinos or is what are some of the other key emerging trends for infrastructure funding that are available out there i mean we talked a little bit about P3s, right? Partnerships, that's a role you're going to see, you know, modernization, right? That sustainability, resilient infrastructure.

We talked a little bit about that on the Francis Scott Key Bridge, making sure they can withstand, you know, not just the large crews or large ships, but, you know, other climate impacts, right? The innovative funding mechanisms, you know, other climate impacts, right? The innovative funding mechanisms, you know, are also gaining some traction. Technology, right? We've heard of smart roadways that can charge vehicles. I think that in Denmark, right, you know, they will drive efficiencies and new capabilities. But ultimately, Chris, what we're seeing is higher miles per gallon in EV vehicles,

right? You see those and you think about, oh, great idea. But in the day, what they don't pay is kind of similar to gas tax, right? Oh, wow. I never thought about that. Think about that, right? It's a direct hindrance to the state and local operating budgets, because that's that's been a past hundred years. That's been their main source of income. Right. So what do you do? Right. Vehicle miles traveled. OK, that could be, you know, you have a little ticker on your car, how many miles you go. You know, it will help address that dwindling gas tax revenue you know however vmts come with the privacy concerns nobody wants to nobody wants to be watched like tiktok but people want to watch tiktok but they don't want the privacy concerns but you know those need

to be addressed right yeah even though even though evidently elon is watching in all moments in those cars so you know what? Everybody's watching. Everyone's watching everybody at this point. Yeah. Yeah. But we've got to balance that need, right? Balance for sustainable funding with privacy protections.

That's going to be critical. You know, you brought this up because we talk a lot about the EV market. You know, I've had friends that rode with Tesla and and Elon in the first Teslas and and a lot of my friends are Silicon Valley types and nerds so they like they love their their they love their Teslas until they found out that evidently the politics have changed but I never thought of that I mean how much of a huge has anyone calculated the cost of what EVs are costing in these taxes that would go to infrastructure? And has there been any sort of implementation of legislation that's tried to offset those? I mean, it's kind of funny.

EVs even got, I think, a federal credit for a while, if they still don't do. That $7,500 credit. Yeah. There's there. It's still out there. You know, some States are looking to address it, but yeah,

it, that's still nationally needs to kind of be, be, be addressed. This is going to be a conversation I'm going to be having. It's going to cause a lot of arguments on Facebook. They're not paying their fair share. Yeah.

I'm going to start shaming those dirt. law arguments on facebook they're not they're not paying their fair share yeah i'm gonna start shaming those dirt i already shamed the cyber truck enough as it is every chance i get i can shame that shame that cyber one more one more thing and you know we're all obviously everybody can have the ability to choose whatever vehicle they want obviously you know these evs are obviously heavier too oh that's right guardrails need to be replaced these things obviously you know these evs are obviously heavier too oh that's right guard rails need to be replaced these things that you know so there's a whole host of issues that that can happen and you know we just need flexible flexible state agencies to implement you know policies that's true there's a there's a video on file you probably probably saw it, of one of Tesla's competitors, Reliant?

It starts with an R. Rivian. Rivian, yeah. They tested a Rivian against the barriers and stuff that are on the freeway, and it just blew right through them. There was nothing there. And so the conversation was, you know, we've got to, you know, they're so heavy with the battery in them, we've got to reanalyze all these different barriers and if they can sustain or contain, I guess, these EV cars.

Absolutely. The riveting just went right through it. That was cute what you got there. But think about that. What about on bridges, right? Yeah. They're supposed to help. I mean, so that type of infrastructure needs to be looked at and supported.

I don't know. In my mind, though, it sounds like these EV people aren't paying their way on bridge taxes. Maybe we should just let Darwinism figure that out. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding, folks. We can't have that because then other people get hurt and all that. I'm just starting a war with the EV people on the show, I guess, at this point. No, we're not. We're just being, know these are these are things we need to know with the power of voters

obviously they they're kind of technically in control of the purse what should voters and and and citizens be thinking about and maybe applying their lobbying their their politicians and governors etc etc to try and take care of these things or motivate them maybe? Chris, listen, it's simple, right? We all want to get to our destination quickly, efficiently, but most importantly, safely, right? You know, our roads, bridges, highways, all those things, you know, they move precious cargo, no matter what it is, right? And roads, you know, kids to daycare, right? Our infrastructure takes significant investment to maintain and build. And our stakeholders, like your listeners, should contact their legislators and let tell them that hey this

is important for them to not just champion and but but also to to give these dots the the money and the power to kind of make some significant contributions there you go it's really important i mean it's like i say there's scary bridges sometimes you'll see the fall they're falling apart you can look at them and you're just like i don't know about that and especially with like i said the francis scott key situation bridge you know where we just get people i mean technically transportation also falls into boating i would imagine this country to some degree maybe i don't know waterways yeah and maybe i don't know check ships better i don't know how that works but yeah no more drinking and shipping that's all

i'm saying and then you know like i said earlier that trucking shutdown of that bridge that went over between canada and and america was so bad that like companies like Ford and auto parts companies that rely on some parts from Canada had to slow or stop their progress of building cars, you know. And all these things really impact the supply chain, right? I mean, across the nation, even if you squeeze like a certain area, it just doesn't affect the city or state right it can affect whole supply chains across the nation yeah it definitely impacts are far and wide just to your point right everything is affected by the delivery of goods and services my amazon purchases that i'm not no anytime i see one of those containers fall in the ocean i'm like i guess i'm not getting that that i can't think of anything funny to make a joke about right now but i guess i'm not getting

my box of oreos anytime soon probably a good thing for me probably thanks thanks michael throw me right into the bus there buddy all right probably you've been talking to my doctor and my dietician haven't you but that's true i need to don't do the Oreos, folks. That's what the whole show outlook is cautiously optimistic, my long-term outlook. And you've heard those significant challenges, but conversations like this showcase the growing recognition of critical importance of infrastructure to our economy or society, right? We all want to get to work faster, safer. But, you know, you look at post COVID world, people are driving 10 more miles to get to their job, you know, whether that's for a better paying job, right? But we need to find, you know, the innovative funding solutions and focus on sustainable funding solutions. But we believe,

you know, with those investments and, you know, we can continue to build and maintain a world-class infrastructure. There you go. And, I mean, companies are still trying to get people in the office. So I don't even know if our infrastructure is being fully capacity utilized at this point. There's still, I think there's still a lot of people working remote. So if we ever went full back, it could be crazy. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. It could be crazy. It's probably better than it hasn't become full. They haven't been able to claw everybody back. You know, it's kind of interesting. Maybe they can, you know, I see a lot of empty and I think probably low capacity filled commercial spaces. Maybe we can run some more freeways around the sinks or something.

I don't know, off-ramps or something. It's crazy some of the things that I see. But, yeah, anything to make traffic move better. I mean, if anybody needs the most infrastructure sort of help, I mean, I don't know because I don't live back east. I mean, you guys do have some tight stuff back there. I know California really needs some more freeways. That or less people, one of the two.

I don't know. But I think more freeways are the only way to fix it. Yeah, it's just crazy living in that town. I imagine New York and all that area has the same sort of nightmarish issues. But at least we have good weather. That's for sure. There you go. So give us your final thoughts

as we go out. Tell people how they can find out more about you guys on board. Get familiar with what the Maryland Transportation Builders and Materials Association is doing. Well, I would say, you know, number one, check out our website, mtbma.org. You know, we do a lot of great things here. You know, we are kind of focused in our region, making sure that our DOT is adequately supported, funded, helped. For me, it's just making sure, I think I said it earlier, get your listeners to tell their legislators that we continue to need significant investment to maintain, build our infrastructure.

There you go. Hey, one last question. This is kind of a question I was thinking about. You know, a lot of big commercial buildings that I see right off of freeways, you know, and usually they're big, tall buildings, probably have a lot of traffic that goes through in and of them. I mean, do localities look at municipalities, look at, you know, the cost of those and maybe you should charge more for people that have popular corners, as they like to do in retail. They have those high visible corners. Maybe they should be charged a little bit more. I don't know. Definitely an interesting innovative.

We may need to talk to you on a revenue commission to look at some of that. This is why I get five bucks a day, because I think of the big ideas. Yeah. But no, I i mean something like that i mean it would seem to me like those would those usually impact a lot of traffic because there's people usually dumping in and out of them the other thing that should also be charged really highly and i think sadly it's state promoted or funded or or given tax credits is arenas like arenas just cost stupid amounts of... Here in Vegas, you know, I mean, I love the Raiders. I'm a Raiders fan.

I love the new arena. But holy crap, where they put it is insane. And then they've got... There's two other arenas. I think there's one they're going to build for baseball at the Tropicana, or they're going to try to. And then there's the... I think there's a Verizon or something.

Arena that's just right off the freeway. And, like like you don't even want to be in those areas at certain times and it's like we we should be charging those guys extra i'm sorry that's just the way i feel you can take it out of live nation's cut because they got plenty of money evidently absolutely now i'm getting a cnd from live nation for sure anyway guys thank you very much michael for coming on the show give us the dot com one last time as we go out mtbma.org there you go check it out folks remember you get the government you deserve so lobby your politicians get active in government as we always talk in this keep your your politicians, hold their feet to the fire. I mean, I mean that in a sense that is not for, don't really put their feet to the fire.

That's illegal, folks. But, you know, keep them up. Let them know that you're watching, you're expecting them to do their job. That's really important in today's day and age. So there you go. Thanks to everyone for tuning in. Go to GoodReach.com, FortressCrispFoss, LinkedIn.com, FortressCrispFoss, YouTube.com, FortressCrispFoss, and all those crazy places on the internet to everyone for tuning in. Go to Goodreads.com, Fortunes, Christmas, LinkedIn.com, Fortunes, Christmas, YouTube.com,

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