The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – MOSAIC Pieces: Surviving the Dark Side of American Justice by Wes Skillings

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

MOSAIC Pieces: Surviving the Dark Side of American Justice by Wes Skillings https://www.amazon.com/MOSAIC-Pieces-Surviving-American-Justice/dp/B0FH7JYK55 A child's murder and a rush to judgment still resonate more than fifty years later with lessons to be learned about American justice from a real-life murder case. The convicted murderer did his time, returned to his hometown of South Williamsport, PA, where the crime occurred, and yet the case against him refuses to retreat quietly into fading memories and a growing cache of the obituaries of those who played many of the prominent roles in this morality play. The impact on him and his family resonates as both tragedy and triumph with a case study that is as much a generational story in more innocent times as it is about the murder of a child in an all-American town known as the home of Little League Baseball. This story centers on an implausible murderer and his family - not that of the twelve-year-old victim and her family. And that's a true crime reversal in itself. Other than one tragic realization, that is. Somebody got away with murder and, despite an impressive accumulation of exculpatory evidence widening cracks into chasms in the Commonwealth's case presented in February of 1974, exoneration has eluded a family sacrificed for political gain and career expediency. "Mosaic Pieces," a work of narrative nonfiction by Wes Skillings, might at its heart be a true crime story, but it encompasses so much more than a murder case. Make that several decades more-three generations of one family- with the evolving story of the crime serving as the keystone of this arching chronicle of guilt versus innocence. Subtitled "Surviving the Dark Side of American Justice," this book reads like a novel supported by a detailed journalistic approach from a man who retired after almost four decades as a newspaper editor, reporter and columnist. The 1973-74 murder case itself is alternately fascinating and disturbing - if only because of what has been learned in the decades since the trial at the end of which Kim Lee Hubbard, 20, was convicted of murdering twelve-year-old Jennifer May Hill. He is a free man and has been for the past four decades and counting after paying his proverbial debt to society. Yet a debt is something you owe, and this convicted murderer, despite leading a productive and fulfilling life in the very community where the crime for which he was tried and convicted occurred, has his own debt to collect. The debt is exoneration for a crime he swears he didn't commit and, as this true crime narrative that reads like a novel shows, one that relied on evidence that had been manipulated and manufactured. The arrest, trial and jury's verdict required only four-and-a-half months from the day the child's remarkably well-preserved body was found in a cornfield a few hundred yards from her home on October 28, 1973. She had been dead in that field, according to evidence proffered by the Commonwealth, for 216 hours (nine days) in unseasonably warm and dry October weather for Pennsylvania. And yet the body on the autopsy table the evening of October 29, 1973, "was as fresh as if she had died just the day before," according to the man who picked up the body and later embalmed it. Acclaimed forensics experts on body decomposition and time of death stated without reservation that the body must have been refrigerated for all but 48 hours of those nine days. Other aspects of the case, including misuse and abuse of DNA by an apologist for the DA's office, bring the impact of this story well into the 21st Century. Skillings offers readers the challenge to form their own impressions based on facts and expert opinions. Then again, it is a unique and thought-provoking true crime story with solid human-interest components and insights into murder case essentials like forensic science, expert witnesses, hypnotism of an eyewitness,

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endorsement or review of any kind. We have an amazing young man on the show. We're going to be talking about his book called Mosaic Pieces, surviving the dark side of American justice out July 11, 2025. Wes Skillings joins us on the show. We're going to be talking about his insights in the book that he has. If you remember, the famous Truman Capote book that kind of, I think that propelled Truman Capote right to the top of being popular in cold blood

in creating a new genre that was, that was given birth to the true crime novel and grifted a nation, too, I think, when it happened. So we're going to get into it with him, and we're going to talk about his stories. He is retired from the newspaper journalism industry in April 1st, 2011, after 38 years as a reporter, columnist, and editor. Where, among his assignments for three different newspapers, he covered everything from municipal meetings, those are exciting, to murder trials. Those are kind of exciting. He is a Vietnam vet with a BA in English from Mansfield University, formerly Mansfield State College, where he won a National Writing Award in 1971 with an essay in the Atlantic Magazine,

creative writing contest for college students. Welcome the show. How are you, Wes? I'm fine. How are you doing? I am excellent. Welcome to the show. We're glad to have you. Give us any dot-coms or website. which I have, I hate to say this, but I just had one made or created for me through the marketing company. I'm working with, but I have my own skill unlimited.com, which was a copywriting website, and I'm not doing that anymore, but I put my blogs in there once in a while. Okay. That's to entertain people. It's mostly humorous stuff. And, you know, try not to say too political, but it's hard in these days not to be.

There's something going on in 2025? Yeah, yeah, I don't know. You know, and for those of you, you know, I'm 58, you clearly are older than me. I think I was three in 1971. But I'm 78. 78. You're doing, you look young for your age. Oh, thank you.

But, yeah, it's an interesting world to live in right now when you come from a background of... My hair's not gray, so that's good. And when you get your dot com from the marketing company, let us know. We'll add that to the post on the Chris Foss show, so they can have that reference. I'm not a very good business guy. You know, I should have all that stuff here. Oh, you're working on. It sounds like...

They'll find me. They'll find me, right? Yeah, they'll find you. Yeah. Yeah. So on the book, give us a book. What's inside the new book? Okay. What I'm going to do here is, you know, a synopsis when you're trying to find a literary agent. And you've got to give them a compact description of what the book's about and hope you can get them to represent you. Okay.

That's what I'm sort of doing here. I'm going to read this, but it's only three or four minutes. And then we're getting a lot of hits on the mic. If you could avoid any. Oh, okay. Any noise on the mic, that'd be great. Okay. A rustling paper maybe? Yeah, it's banging and wrestling. It feels like it's being moved or something.

Oh, wow. What's going on? Sometimes the desk, if you have a desk, Mike, if you do anything on the desk, it'll pick it up. Okay. You got it. Okay, buddy. So anyway, a child's murder and arrested judgment still resonates

more than 50 years later with lessons to be learned about American justice from a still-remembered murder case. The convicted murder did his time, returned to his hometown of South Williamsport, Pennsylvania. The crime occurred. And yet the case against him refuses to retreat quietly into the fading memories and growing list of obituaries of those who played many of the prominent roles in this. I guess I'd go to morality play. Impact on him and his family resonates as both tragedy and triumph with a case study that is as much, I'd say, generation. story in more innocent times that it is about the murder of a child in an all-American town known as the

birthplace of little league baseball so story centers on an implausible murderer in his family not that of the 12-year-old victim and her family that's a true true crime reversal in itself other than one tragic realization that is somebody got away with murder and despite an impressive excessive accumulation of exculpatory evidence, widening cracks in the chasms in the Commonwealth's case presented. It would have been in February 1974. Exoneration has eluded a family seemingly sacrifice for political gain and career expediency by certain people. Mosaic pieces might at its heart be a true crime story, but encompasses so much more than a murder case, make that several decades more, three generations of one family, with the evolving story

of the crime serving as the keystone of this, out of this chronicle of guilt versus innocence. It's subtitled, Surviving the Dark Side of American Justice. This book reads like a novel, I hope, supported by a detailed journalistic approach from an author who retired after almost four decades as a newspaper editor, reporter, and colonists. The arrest, trial, and the jury's verdict required only four and a half months from the day. The child's remarkably preserved body was found in the cornfield. She owner guards from her home on October 28, 1973. She had been dead in that field, according to evidence proffered by the commonwealth,

for 216 to 220 hours, which is designed. nine, little-born nine days, in unseasonably warm and dry October weather for Pennsylvania. Yet the body on the autopsy table, the evening of October 29th, next day,

1973, was quote as fresh as if she had died just the day before, according to the man who picked up the body, and later embalmed it. Claim forensics experts on body decomposition and time of death stated, without reservations, and this is a few years later after he was already in prison,

that the body must have been refrigerated for all but 24 to 48 hours of those nine days. Those opinions came six years too late, except for maybe helping and trying to appeal to get a new trial. This didn't work. Other aspects of the case, including misuse and abuse of DNA by an apologist for the DA's office that prosecuted him, bring the impact of this story well into the into the 21st century. I offer readers a challenge to form their own impressions based on facts and expert opinions. Then again, it is a unique and thought-provoking true crime story with solid human

interest components and insights in the murder case essentials like forensic science, crimes and investigation, expert witnesses, hypnotism of an eyewitness eyewitness, evidential chain of custody, contamination of evidence, and fast and a loose DNA technology that is not questioned often enough when wielded to solve both active and cold case crimes. Speaking of hypnosis, the eyewitness, after being shown the impounded cart twice, Kim's car supposedly, and subsequently hypnotized to refresh her memory, testified that she had seen the murder victim get into a car resembling Hubbard. This opportunity for wielding the power of suggesting on an altered consciousness was never revealed until after the trial.

Matter of fact, the family and the defendant didn't know that witness had been hypnotized. And there were the tire traps, tracks captured on the cast near the body scene on the rainy evening she was discovered, which was the only rainy day in the whole period she was out. there that's supposed to be out in the field all the time came from a tire that was not on the car this was at the scene taken the one that night until the day after the girl's body was discovered there's a little hanky-panky there now mosaic pieces requires a lot of research and access to evidentiary flows trial transcripts and key figures in this case many of whom are dead including Joe and Dorisand Hubbard,

who never gave up seeking a new trial and the subsequent exoneration for their son. You know, this is as much about them as about Kim or his sister Ruth. She survived in Arteous childhood. Of the adolescence, she pretty much lost her adolescence. Because she, her brother was a convicted murderer of her best friend. and she was 12 years old too. And lastly, and this is almost the end of my old spiel.

The 1970s, 73, 74 murder case itself was alternately fascinating and disturbing, if only because what has been learned in the months, years, and even decades since a trial, at the end of which can Lee Hubbard, 20, was proclaimed guilty of the murder of 12-year-old Jennifer Mayhill. He is a free man and has been for the past four decades and counting, well, after paying his proverbial debt to society, yet a debt is something

you owe, right? And this convicted murder, despite leading a productive and fulfilling life in the very community where the crime for which he was tried and convicted occurred, he has his own debt to collect. That is exoneration for a crime he swears he didn't commit, and as I show one that relied on evidence that had been manipulated and manufactured. The wheels, this is my last sentence here, so hold on. The wheels of justice have been said to, quote, turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine. But a quickly turning wheel directed toward a hastily contrived conclusion is more likely to result,

as it did in this case, in justice. So let's delve into this. So you say that mosaic pieces, do you regard it as an example of the genre like Truman Capote's book in Cold Blood then Well It's there's familiar But of course Truman Coity was

Got into the heads of the two murderers And we're talking about Trying to get in the heads of people That maybe Tried to put an innocent man in jail But in some ways it is It's I don't

I think Truman Capote created scenes that he probably had to be like a novelist a little bit, you know? Yeah. But even though he did these in-depth interviews with these guys, and that's why I knew the Hubbard's when I walked into their house, I'd been sent there as a newspaper reporter because the mother, Doris St. Hubbard, had called and said, if you sent somebody over here, we can prove that our son. son didn't kill that girl.

So this was something that was on your beat when you were a journalist then? Yeah, yeah, and I'd only been there. Well, I'd never went to the trial because I'd only been there but a little over a year. I was a new guy. And I remember reading about the trial and seemed pretty cut and dried based on a newspaper reporting. Not our newspaper. We were, paper I was that was a weekly Sunday paper. So how did you, how did you officially get?

involved in it. Did this thing haunt you for a lot of your years of being a journalist? Has it stayed with you all these years? What got you wrapped up in this so much that you did a lot of research and finally wrote a book? I did the first research was for

a series on the time. I went to the house, interviewed him, and started looking into the case, and we did a series about all the discrepancies in the evidence of the case. And I went on for a number of weeks.

When I got to the part about the possibility that the body had been refrigerated, and this is based on the prosecution's case when they said she was died or killed, and taken out of the field, refrigerated, and then put back in the field a number of days later. Wow. But that has to do with body condition, which is also. a big part of place, you know. Yeah, yeah, big deal. And when did you, so is this always haunted you?

Has this always been something that you're like? Yeah, I followed it very closely. I moved to, I think it was 1979. I came to my hometown, was the editor of hometown dealing newspaper. Go on to Pennsylvania. And, but I kept in touch with these people. And the matter of fact, the guy,

the Philadelphia Inquirer Center reporter, and to look into it a bit. I went and helped him, introduced him to people he had to talk to, and that never developed in anything of that story. Another publication, three years after I did my series, I did a huge coverage of it. And that was the only reason. They actually went into existence, it's called The Weekender,

to do this case, published this case and then they were gone on a couple weeks after they got done. People in Williamsport knew that all these discrepancies in the seventh based on those reporting

and that type of thing. And when Kim got out of prison, I think it was in 84, 1984, he's only 10 years. He came back to his hometown and he was pretty much accepted. I mean, how many people who are convicted of killing a 12-year-old girl,

what people had seen in a lot of this. Why do you think that is that they were kind of accepting of him? Is it because they knew there is discrepancies in the case? Yeah, well, the family, the Joe and North St. Hubbard, were well-known people. He was featured as a chimney sweep

around Christmas. He was a roofer, but he also did chimneys in the sooner around Christmas he did, you know. And she was a sweet woman and his mom. And Kim had no record. Some people, not everybody believed he was innocent, but could sort of one of them was

a question mark there, you know. And he himself sort of inherited his father's business and was successful at his job, married as a daughter who's now a pharmacist, I think. So, you know, but

even going there, I'm sure there was a few people who stared at him for a while, but he went around to this business and one thing he always did, though, was made sure there was always somebody around wherever he went. Because, you know, he didn't have an alibi for like 15 minutes one day, except his mother. Oh, wow. And so that was always, that's in his mind.

You know, another case will come up. That might be simpler, and I'll say, I'll go up to that guy. He's convicted for that same crime, you know. So he was always very careful to do that, you know. He was always He was a big physical fitness And he'd go to the gym And there was a couple of state cops

That worked there You know, he said That's the best Albi you can have Maybe Oh yeah Yeah So anyway It's just

His acceptance in the community And like I said It's not totally acceptance Because our people believe he did He did do the crime Oh Murder you say Murder he wrote

Murder Yeah So let's talk a little bit about some of this. So this is in the 1970s, when you talk about this in the book, The Crime occurred. It was assessed as maybe domestic violence by an immediate family member in a murder case. It was not commonly considered as it is today. Most murder investigations began with clearing immediate members and are moving outward for suspects.

Why was this not the case in the murder of, I guess the victim's name was Jennifer Hill, in 1973. Right. Well, I don't, there was no evidence that maybe it's just because of the times, but that they even look to me.

She young girls killed that supposedly it was by a sexual predator, but it turns out there's no sexual molestation or anything like that. Or even serious injuries, indicative of maybe an attack. Sexual assault. Yeah.

So, anyway, what did you say, what was the question? So the question was, you know, how was it kind of different in, in, where? Yeah, I don't know why it was, it was, but there was no testimony by any state cops or anybody or anybody I ever talked to that, so that there was any kind of investigation. So let's fill in a missing piece to this. So was a family member then, you've referred to a gentleman I think a couple times, was there a family member who was blamed for the death? You mean the family member of the girl? Yeah, who's blamed?

You've mentioned the name of someone who went to jail. No, as far as I know of. No, you mentioned somebody went to jail. Who was that? Well, that was Kim. Now Kim is who? Kim Hubbard is a guy that was convicted of the murder. Now, was he, did he have a relations to the girl?

Yeah, he was their son. Okay, he was their son. Okay, yeah, that's, I guess I forgot to say that, but yeah. Yeah, I'm just trying to fill in the foundation. One of the other than there, his daughter, his sister was Ruthie. She was the one that was, you know, the sister of a convicted murder, and she had a horrible childhood because, the parents when led their kids play with her and that kind of thing because, yeah. Now, are you referring when you say there with the convicted murder,

you're talking about that son? Yeah. Okay, Kim. Okay, so we have Jennifer Hill was the one who was murdered. We have Kim, who was Jennifer Hill's son? No, Kim was Joe and Dorsey and Hubbard's son. Okay. Hubbard, she's Kim Hubbard.

Now, how did these two Jennifer Hill and the Hubbard's get in proximity of each other? The Ruth Hubbard Kim's sister was and Jennifer Hill were both 12 years old best friends. The one thing that may have drawn them to the Hubbard's was on that on a Friday. She stayed overnight, it was a Thursday. She stayed overnight Thursday on Friday. Of course, they played all day together. And at the end of the day, her mother called and wanted her to come home. and they had a little bit of argument, but she finally left.

She headed for home, like a quarter of four, I believe it was in the afternoon, and never made it. Oh, wow. She became a missing person. A number of people saw her on her walk home up West Central Avenue was called, including one witness who put her very close to her home within sight of her home. So it was like she almost. made it there but then she disappeared for well this is uh four o'clock when she's seen at that

corner 4.30 she's seen in front of a house getting into a car that resembled Kim Hubbard's car and that was their their prime witness but uh everything sort of fell apart because nobody i mean there was a half hour she wasn't nobody saw her just uh the witness she She's the one that was hypnotized, I mentioned. So she could remember, you know, they took her in where the car, Kim's car was impounded after he took his car in and was at least there twice, and she was hypnotized after the preliminary hearing when her case was bound over to trial, the district attorney Alan Erdo, who, a year or so after this trial became congressman, informed by a little letter,

The defense attorney, that hypnotism had been used and been used to help her with her memory of everything. And it just helped that way. She came out and testified. She was not a very good witness, but it was, it's complicated because there's a lot of testimony about that. and we uncover it. And you go through the book in that. Yeah, yeah. Now, was DNA, forgive me, I don't know when we started using DNA testing.

Was DNA a factor in this at the time of the trial? No, DNA was another guy came along. He was Ken Maimson. He wrote a book. But we had all these articles about the reasons of Kim Hubbard didn't do it, or because the evidence he was against him was manufactured and all that stuff. And this guy decided he's going to write a book. Matter of fact, he approached Kim.

And Kim thought he was another person interested in hearing his story. And, you know, any help he could get, right? He took him years, but he finally decided he was going to seek his exoneration or in honor of his father to himself because he was doing all right. So, so Kim was approached by this guy, Kim Mainz. He didn't want anything. He didn't care about any of this evidence, as I sort of said in the introductory thing I gave.

He wasn't interested in that. Interesting. So what about DNA? So is there been DNA since where DNA? He's the guy that found, said he found in a DNA, he took it into a guy that, I guess his business is called, well, what was it called? Now, when you talk about the person who discovered the DNA, are you talking about this author or who wrote a book or are you talking about the, yeah, yeah, okay. He sent the material. He said he found the old evidence from the case.

By the way, there was a, I don't even see this. I've written all over it, but this was a motion for disposal and destruction of property. He's office in 1996 asked Kim if Kim wanted to show cause as to why he didn't want that. evidence destroyed or disposed of and he never did because at that time his father just died he just didn't want to he was just tired of talking about the case he just wanted to live his life and and that evidence was supposed to been destroyed in 1996 when maims comes along he gets his signed by the DA's office the same one that tried the case to look into this, but look into the case.

So he's sitting at his desk and, you know, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? This is what he's, this is what he's, you know, saying. And he hears some guys talking, people talking in the other room. And I said, hey, do you know, you did you see that? I couldn't believe that there's a, there were, I saw the box of evidence done there, blah, blah, blah, and this other building, county building in the basement.

And one of them said it was a Hubbard box. It was a Hubbard box. And so, you know, lucky, lucky break there. It was actually sort of comical because I used one chapter to sort of turn it apart. But in his book, he said, this is now, he hears this. He hears this evidence that was supposedly destroyed in 1996. And this was 2015 or whatever it was. he says not only was this a miraculous break but there was apparently ghost-like figures perhaps guiding angels pointing toward him finding true he's talking about he was some maybe god that directed him hey there's a

the evidence was supposed to have been destroyed but here it was fate he says so he comes up for this I mean it was almost too ridiculous to be true that and if there was evidence down there and nobody had been around it there was a lack of chain of custody who touched it all those years while it was down there if it was there I'm not even sure it was

and contamination of evidence I mean you've got to keep evidence so he's used this to come up with the prints or the DNA that he was able to to send to a doctor, a guy has a business called Cybergenetics, which is computer-based.

It's not lab-based finding DNA. So the chapter tells a lot of the criticism for this system. Touch DNA as a mixture of DNA. But that's all explored. DNA is complicated. Matter of fact, I don't know if you've had anybody, that'd be a great, because the thing about DNA

is it solves so many it's a degenerated a bunch of people. It's found the real killers. But sometimes it's a magic bullet, you know. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, it definitely can tie you to some bad stuff. It might be able to do something on that

because that's a pretty interesting feel. More in the book. Now, you talk, I believe you talk in the book about it's likely that the body of the 12-year-old murder victim was missing for nine days. but was actually found within 48 hours in a cornfield and preserved. Right.

And maybe this had to do with her stomach or maybe she was put into a refrigerator system. And then eventually she was turned to the same field, which is pretty wild. Tell us about what was up with that, I guess. Yeah. Well, she was when at the trial, a forensic pathologist who did the autopsy, testified. And only admitted to, I mean, there are evidence photos that showed her, but nobody would think too much about it, you know. But nine days in the field, it was warm weather, unseasonably warm weather. You got insects crawling all over you.

You got the bottleflies hatching eggs and maggots form and all that bad stuff, which is. The whole chapter of decomposition, if you really want to. Yeah, that's Fridays for me around. Plus, you know, there's animals roaming around. Oh, yeah. Plus the weather, the decomposition there. We go over the, what should, what that body should have looked like if it had been in their night days. Wow.

Yeah. Wouldn't it look like a girl, the evidence photo was looked like that. Had they searched the area during that time and that? Yeah, and she was found just a few minutes before. the search was to end the day uh really yeah another convenience and um but they she's over here i planted the body right here i found her we have affidavits the guys who had search who've been on search parties through that field through that area days before it just i mean there's just so much uh uh as you can see i don't know which way to go on some of this

stuff yeah it should be something this would make a great Amazon or a Netflix series You'll do a lot of these Netflix series I thought there's a thing at the beginning because these sort of composite type of thing As we round out the show, what do you think readers will take away from mosaic pieces that will make them either more compassion or cynical

or make them, I don't know, demand more answers from the I think, yeah, and I think as you said, we'll get the situation we're in now with what's illegal and what's not legal and what the law and what is the law and all that's

stuff, that I think we've learned that you have to be careful. There are people, as we know, some people in a government think a lot of people are expendable and don't mean to, you know, that type of thing. And that's sort of what that was. I think it was a case of quick solve here. DA, Alan Erdle was, had political ambitions, and he became a congressman, and a congressman and nearly lost. the election to be the governor, Pennsylvania. Wow. He lost to Dick Thornberg

who was, you know, the guy who was in there in power at the time. And, you know, I have all this stuff going, it's almost too... That's why you need a book to tell it, really. You know what I'm saying? Tell a big story. And it's just, like I said, when I did

the intro there, if I had started on that, then I'd be going off here. Oh, wait, did I tell you about the hypnotism? And I know, I know all that stuff. Yeah. Well, as we go on, tell people a final pitch out to pick up your book, where they can pick it up at, et cetera, et cetera. Well, obviously, it's at Amazon.com and Barnes & Noble, mosaic pieces, surviving the dark side of American justice. We're getting pretty, all of a sudden people are interested, and I've been the victim of the skin. I don't know how much time you have, so maybe you don't have enough time to.

we probably want to wrap the show yeah okay so anyway let's just say i uh i've become very noticeable and uh there was an actual fraud attempted against me for uh from my fake publishing company but oh wow that's what you got to watch out for you yeah you got to watch out for well it sounds like an intriguing book with an in-depth investigation analysis by yourself and of course you did this for what almost four decades uh being investigated reporter so you're probably building a lot of skills to that It was on and off, you know, I did the thing, and then I moved, and I thought everything's all right, and, you know, little pieces. And then one day I just said, I retired and I said, I don't just write about this, you know.

Yeah, sounds good. Sounds like I kind of cooked for a long time there. Yeah. So thank you very much, Wes, for coming the show. This is really interesting. And hopefully maybe we can see on the big screen or, you know, 48 hours or one of those shows. Yeah, I appreciate. Murder, you say.

People love this. Murder, yeah. Murder. I love that, dude. from which we'll call it anyway uh thank you very much west for coming the show we really appreciate it okay thank you thank you and thanks to my audience for tuning in order at the book where refined books are sold mosaic pieces surviving the dark side of american justice if you love good crime true crime novels uh you want to pick it up sounds like there's a lot of cool

details in here there's people they love this stuff they have like crimes sent to them on a on a serial basis that they have to solve they're like fake crimes but people love these sort of things and digging into them by West Skillings. Anyway, thanks for mine. It's for Juneteen. Go to goodreads.com, Forteous, Chris, Chris Foss. LinkedIn.com, Fortressus, Chris Foss,

one on the TikTokitie. All those crazy places on the internet. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time. Okay. Great.