The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Moving On BY!: Harnessing My Sled Dog Team’s Instinct to Win by Lucille Maddalena

Episode Date: February 14, 2025

Moving On BY!: Harnessing My Sled Dog Team’s Instinct to Win by Lucille Maddalena Mtmcoach.com Amazon.com You already have what you need to lead: now learn to tap into your experience, your history, your future, your story. There is an element of dog sledding that mimics life’s antics. You get on the trail with an idea of where you are going, you experience the joys of connecting with your team, you run into some obstacles, take risks, possibly a wrong turn, and exert incredible effort to reach your goal. This book explores career and life transitions by uncovering the often-elusive trail markers that point the way toward your desired destination. A trail marker is a confluence of your experiences, ideas, motivations, values, and desires flowing together to form your personal trail. If you're someone who inquires and refuses to settle for the status quo, actively seeking improvement in your life, then this book is for you. Today’s leaders will find this book a valuable book to guide the development of high-potential employees. Use it as a subject to open critical discussions to lay a path for their success. It will guide you to engage them as a mentor, enabling them to reach their full potential, to find their trail markers as a contributing member of your organization. In the same way, coaches, trainers, and HR professionals will find the Insight and Tasks sections exploring the topics presented in the Tales and Case Studies make this book a valuable tool to conduct workshops, interventions, and team building sessions. Support your leaders to find their trails to success.About the author Greetings! My name is Lucille Maddalena. I wrote this book with one important goal in mind: to provide a gift for my coaching clients to give to their employees to help them move up in their careers. I work with successful senior executives. By continuing to develop their employees to succeed, leaders build their leadership legacies and create followers ready to win.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, this is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show. We certainly appreciate you guys coming on.

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Opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or the Christmas show. Some guests of the show may be advertising on the podcast, but it is not an endorsement or review of any kind. Today, an amazing young lady on the show, Dr. Lucille Maddalena joins us on the show today and we're going to be talking to her about her amazing insights and everything that she does. Lucille, did I get your last name right?

You did. It's Maddalena. That's perfect. My sister's name is Delaina, so I think I got a Delaina in there at the end of Mad. And I made her mad all the time. She's the author of the newest book called Moving On By, Harnessing My Sled Dog's Team Instinct to Win, out February 18th, 2024. And we're going to get into some of her insights and her things on how you can make your life, leadership, and just everything better when it comes to teamwork. She is a coach, author, speaker, and trailblazer in education and organizational dynamics. As a first woman accepted into Rutgers University's labor education program, she delved into the intricacies of human and organizational behavior, earning an interdisciplinary doctor of

education with a second major in human communications. While a doctoral candidate, she created a workshop preparing professionals for managerial roles, pioneering its acceptance, enabled her to found her company, Morris Business Group. This initiative quickly gained traction to use corporations, making her the inaugural woman to lead management seminars at major pharmaceutical and manufacturing entities, evolving into a global program conducted in multiple languages. This endeavor powered over 6,000 new leaders. Welcome to the show. How are you?

Oh, I'm excited. I just got back from Memphis. Oh, now, was that part of the Super Bowl or Super Bowl area? No, I went the week before. We have to do a little work with corporations, some team building down there, doing some great building. And the neat part is I'm in Memphis, and they understood sled dog racing. I was afraid I was going to have to give a good bridge and explain more about it, but they seem to understand. It's all about dogs and snow. Dogs and snow.

I think they're getting a lot of snow down there these days. They are. It's been happening. I know there's a storm going on right now. So sled dogs. I know that, what was it, Baldor? Who's the famous dog that everyone kind of knew? Balto.

So give us your dot coms. Where can people find out more about you on the interwebs to get to know you better? Oh, please visit my website. There's lots of good stuff there you can download free. It's MTM Coach. I shortened the name of my company to make it real easy. Madalena Transitions Management or

MTMCoach.com Take advantage of all the stuff that's on there. Download, read, watch some sled dog teams running too. Hey, I like that. I love watching sled dog teams. I think this is amazing. Give us a 30,000 overview. What's inside your new book, Moving On By? On By is the sled dog command for passing. So if you're behind a team and you're

ready to pass that team, you shout on by. That means the lead dog gets off that nice, safe, packed trail into the deep snow, passes the team in front of you. It's an analogy. It's an analogy. Pass whatever is blocking you. Shout on by and do it. Get off that path and find that harder trail, and you can do it. Get that. Get by. So I thought I'd use on by as the lead words in my book. Moving on by, I'm a big fan of what we were talking in the pre-show.

You've got, I think, Huskies and Malamutes on the cover of your book. I've owned four Huskies malamutes on the cover of your of your book i've owned four huskies since 2001 so i'm surprising i have any of my hair left well let's see or well i mean i think we all know in the show i don't have any sanity left either but my first ski was in a diderot was a granddaughter of a diderot racer out of Alaska. She was purebred with AKC and all things. And boy, that dog was hard to hand. She had her own spirit. She had her own Alaskan Siberian spirit more so than most.

They do. They're hard-headed. They really are. They know what they want to do, and they don't want to do it. Do you know what Three Dog Night is? Three Dog Night, the band? No, besides that. Three Dog Night means it's that cold that you need three dogs in the bed oh that's that must be why i'm still cold at night because i only have two but uh they're the best cuddlers

when it comes down to keeping you warm at night and stuff but just about everything else they're awful no i'm just teasing they're they're really great dogs if you have a lot of patience, like a lot. I think I just posted a meme there that you never really train a husky. You just come to a cold ward to taunt with them. Okay. That's kind of how it works. That's what happens. We have so many that we couldn't walk them anymore because they walk us.

So we found a sled behind them them and they can pull us so we don't have to do the walking and that's how we got started so tell us about your how you grew up how you were shaped what got you into the huskies then of course this intertwines with your leadership and your your your professional experience etc etc yeah i grew up the column area of new jersey a little foresty a little bit of farms in the area so i always grew up knowing that you work you work for a living and i like working and i found a field that really touches on people that helps them succeed and when you know when you help somebody when you get them to that point where they can get on by a problem and they succeed

you feel really good so this is the most rewarding career i could possibly have gone into as an executive coach i've worked with hundreds of people i started out in grad school working with first-line supervisors now i'm working with ceos it's been a long career 30 years lots of great people, and I learned a lot. Coaching is critical. Sometimes you just need somebody to give you that extra push and that extra little bit of knowledge to make a good decision.

To help you move on by? To move on by. I've got a story about that. Let me tell you the story about it. I was working with Alaska Malamutes. That was how we got started. They were pets.

Pets are great dogs, and we had fun with them. But then I started working with the International Sled Dog Racing Association's president on his business. I got to know them. They came out and saw us at races and figured, all right, this couple's learning. And then his wife got pregnant. And she had a team of Alaskan Huskies bred for the Adidara that raced in Pennsylvania. I only raced in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York. And because she was pregnant, she asked if she could loan me her team

and if I would keep them in shape and run for the season. And, you know, that was a hard decision to make because these are really fast dogs. And I'm a novice. And she was not. So they're trained to run. So I took the team. And my first race was we got off to a beautiful start. The team was superb.

We went under a grove of trees. It was very dark. And as we got out from under that grove of trees, the sun was bright glistening off the snow. You know, you can't see anything then. But the dogs' tails were up straight. Their backs were up. I could see them.

I could see some enthusiasm. So I'm saying, I'm on the back of the sled. You know, we're always in the back of the sled. You're pumping with one foot, working away. You never stop working. You just keep going. We're moving up. And we're getting closer.

And I'm beginning to see what they see. There's a little hill in front of us. And on that hill is a team, which means I made up those first three minutes. I caught up to the team that left before us. Now I know what to do. The team's excited. The team's moving ahead. I'm moving ahead. my job is to call

out on by on by as a command to get off this nice safe path get in that deep snow pass that team get going oh we got closer to the team and you know i work in the corporations during the day i work for some very refined people and instead of shouting on by, I shouted out, may I pass you? I asked him for permission to beat him in the race. The driver of the other team, big guy, looked down at me and said,

nothing. He just shook his head. At that moment, my lead dog, the little red bitch, gorgeous pup, she turned her head. We had eye contact during the race for like 10 seconds. But we did. We had eye contact. And it's like she was looking at me and saying, come on.

And she reached her paws out, dropped her haunches, and took off. And I shouted, on by. And we did what we were supposed to do. She passed that team, led our guys beautifully around the other team, back under the path, and did a fantastic job we did really well in the race yeah i learned a whole lot from that one little brief eye contact with that dog that's that's uh that's a husky for you yeah it brought me back to reality to where i was you know sometimes you can be working on a team and your mind's somewhere else you know and

like i could have been at a corporation the next day walking down the hall and bumping into somebody and saying, I can see you barking, bye, bye, you're in my way. I should have done that. Do that at the airport when people are walking in front of you.

Bye, bye. So anyway, it was a real learning experience, learning about teams. One of those things that hits you in the gut and you react and you learn. You learn from animals. It's instinctual, right? We learn from animals.

I mean, they've made me a better person. I used to be a horrible person. Wait, I still am according to my enemies. I mean, i do horrible things like drink coffee and try and make the world a better place by lifting people up it's so horrible anyway but you know i i i've learned my dogs taught me to be more empathetic more compassionate more you know more i don't know just more loving more caring uh they've taught me to be a better human being whether i learned that or not is another is a question that no one the so you wrote this down in the book and put this down on on how

to teach leadership and teamwork through the concept of uh harnessing these dogs and having an instinct to win i mean certainly that's that's a sport in and of itself. Did you guys ever do that? I think you mentioned Pennsylvania, back east. You guys were doing the sled dogs in? That's right. Yeah. Do you guys do anything like the Adidara out there where they do? Well, we're the racers.

Of course we have races. It's 3, 5, 10 miles. That's all I remember. Nothing like the Adidara that goes on forever. But it's the instincts of the dog. You're talking about how much we learn from animals. And we do learn from animals because it brings us back to some basics here, some caring and some nurturing.

And that's what it's all about. We talk about in corporations, in business, in anything. If you own a business, if you're working with a team, it's got to be connections. You've got to care about the people. You can't work at them. Nobody can win anything by shouting and giving begging commands. If you want a team to work, you have to help them figure out how they're going to succeed.

Give them opportunities to learn from themselves and to share and build support. Yeah. I like what Peter Senge had in his book about building learning organizations and stuff, the fifth discipline. And you're right. Helping them learn, helping them grow, you know, helping them solve their own problems, helping them see the vision for what you want in the world is pretty much, you know, and I think it's more popular nowadays. We've kind of moved away from the stick sort of management style of do your job or we'll fire you to now. I think most leaders understand

that, you know, you've got to, you've got to inspire hearts and minds. You've got to lift, you've got to make people see a picture of vision that's bigger than yourself the company and maybe contributes to the world a little bit more and i think a lot of newer employees millennials and gen z that's kind of what they're seeking right that's precisely what it's all about now we're talking about work-life harmony now we're talking about making people responsible and allowing them to explore some areas. Let's shout at them. Instead, you have to listen and get people to where they are comfortable and they can be creative and be inspired.

My whole theme is be inspired and inspiring. Get out there and do your thing and figure it out for yourself because you'll invest more and you'll get more out in the end. We're talking about values. Yeah, and it's probably more important, too, to help people get inspired because people just work better that way. The human spirit is just almost seemingly unlimited when it's girdled with hope and inspiration and a drive to do something sometimes or a lot of times beyond ourselves.

And I think that really makes a difference. Exactly. And I think the biggest thing that as a coach that I work on is helping people overcome risk. Fear. Fear of risk. I had one woman who was, they asked her to move up into a leadership role. And she said, I'll take the job after I learn it. No, no, no, that's not the way to do it.

You do the job and you learn on the job. You take the risk. It is taking a risk. And once we understand that we'll survive any risk because we've got connections, because we've got intelligence, because we know what we want to work on, we can do it. And that's, again, why I picked that name. I get out there and take the risk. Get it done. The people I'm coaching, go get lost.

Go get lost learning. Yeah, I mean, the only way to do anything or master anything, I hear that from a lot of entrepreneurs. I'll say, hey, you know, hey, you, you told me last year, you're going to start that business. How's that going? Oh, I haven't started. I'm waiting for things to be perfect. And I'm like, there's never going to be a perfect time. There's never a sign that comes up and says, now is the time that's kind of, you know, I like that line from pink floyd you missed the starting bell no one told you when to run perfect and so i see that with a lot you know i've seen people for multiple years around every year i'll bump into them and be like as that business going and they're like i'm starting yet waiting for things to be perfect how many how many years are we doing

this you know they need a coach that's what i'm here for that's what i spend my life doing and i've done this for a long time. It's just fascinating when they make that. They take that breath. You know what I mean? Really, you can see them inhale and go, I can do it. Yeah. And take that risk.

And they find they really can. It's so rewarding. I'm starting to refer to the term of entrepreneurship as just problem solver. Professional problem solver. Oh, that's a good way. I'm sure. Because that the term of entrepreneurship as just problem solver, professional problem solver. Oh, that's a good one. Sure. Because that's really all it is. It's just you're just, you know, you're just constantly solving problems.

You're constantly having to learn something new. I mean, I've been, what, an entrepreneur working for myself since 18. There's just an endless array of stuff that you have to do. I was watching this guy on TikTok. I mentioned this before in the show. And he sells private planes. He's a private plane broker. And he's really good.

He's a really classy guy. I think he lives in London or something. But he sells private planes to very rich people all around the world. And he helps them negotiate their deal and do all the stuff, what to pick out. And he did a walkthrough one day and he's like in his sixties. And so he's been doing this for a long time, pretty much most of his life. This is business. And he goes, you know, what's really funny is you would think after as old as I am and how long I've been in business, you think we'd have this down where every day

it would just be like clockwork. We just do things he goes but every day i'm still solving new problems problems i've never seen before after you know 60 years in business etc etc it's it's always new problem solving that we have to do it's always some some scenarios some new issue some new technology you know technology's a big driver that i'm sure ai is probably a big surprise for people nowadays. But he goes, that's all I do. He goes, that's really all I am every day is I just solve problems. I'm like, I'm tired.

Oh no, he's not tired. He's motivated I'll bet. He's motivated. When I saw it, I was tired. I was like, I'm tired. I want to keep doing this. I'm not a spring chicken anymore. I'm up there too, but I'm tired. I don't want to keep doing this. I'm just energized. I'm not a spring chicken anymore. I'm up there, too. But I'm full of energy because I'm working with fabulous people who are dedicated to doing the right.

They have that drive. They want to get that business going. So I've run my own business now for close to 40 years. And I'm thrilled by it because every day is something new. Every day is a new challenge, a new way to look at what has to happen. A way to give somebody the guts to go ahead and let them tie into their own instincts so they know where they want to be. And that's what it's all about, connecting with yourself,

understanding what you want out of life. So let's talk about some of the offerings you have on your website at mtmcoach.com. Tell us about some of the things you do with people there that they can take advantage of. One of the most important things that we don't do for ourselves is help us to understand how we look at the world. So I do a really thorough eval. I use a top program so they can assess themselves. But more importantly than that, I ask them for the names of 10 people they know that they respect. Maybe somebody in a higher level, maybe peer, maybe somebody below.

And then I call these people and I interview them on the phone and have them give me feedback that they would give to this person. So I put it all together. Wow. And I give them a 75-page report on themselves. Oh, wow. Yeah, what other people say about them, what they say about themselves. And you know, when you compare what other people say about you to what you think about yourself, you'll learn a whole lot. Because there's often areas where they just don't merge.

So that's the heart of it. Once we find those areas where you see yourself differently from how people see you, that's where we invest the time in. And we do that in some really creative ways. We have some fun doing it. We go off site. We explore some different issues. Coaching is not just talking. Coaching is acting. Coaching is living through it and getting out there and and taking the risk taking the risk so leadership coaching executive coaching you do some keynote speaking people can request from you as well oh yes a lot of keynote speaking you know that's really exciting because when you get out in front of an audience you know this

when you're speaking with an audience you get motivated and then you find out what's of interest to them. And then you go back and you do a little more research because something new to add to your cadre of interesting facts and figures that you can share. And then you have a free download that people can get on your website as well. Yes, I've got several actually. The most popular is how to self-coach. Self-coaching is so simple. Self-coaching, you know, that's why I talk about instincts.

Where do you go when you have to make a decision? Where does your mind go? It goes to all your previous experiences. Your experiences you gain through action, reading case studies, and they accumulate and you call upon them. And that's what the instincts are about, calling upon your reaction based on all of these things. So if you want a better reaction, if you want to make better decisions, gain more information, get out there and take the risk.

Read a few books. Talk with people. Expand who you are and learn who you are. Learn more about yourself. That's what coaching's there for, to give you that step ahead coaching get this so you you advise for self-coaching and how to how to self-coach like yeah basically you're like you're like hey do better okay i will self-coaching is there's three steps of self-coaching the way i explain it first of all when you start self-coaching you think back I explain it. First of all, when you start self-coaching, you think back. What happened?

What's in your history? Did it work then when I did it the first time? Could it work now? Then you bring it today. Could it work now? And how could it work for me? Then you bring it to the future. If I do it now, how's it going to help in the future?

So if you think about from the past, the present, and the future, that's self-coaching. That's taking a piece of information. That's taking an idea, taking a step and seeing testing it for yourself understanding if it's going to help you now if it's going to help you in the future so anything more we need to cover and tease out to people and how they should work with you etc etc you know I think the most important thing is storytelling mm-hmm Everyone has their story to tell. And if you haven't written your own little life story, if you haven't taken the time to put it down on paper, do that now.

Because that's who you are. That's how you see yourself. And from there, you can start growing and decide if it works, if it's something you want it to work and how you want your life to go. That's self-coaching, taking the time to examine yourself, to be able to ask yourself those questions. And then when you get in front of an audience, then when you're dealing with somebody who's maybe going through some problems or someone who's moving ahead fast, you can share your story more accurately and explain who you are and feel proud of yourself. Be inspired and inspire the other person to do a bit more.

Yeah. And that's really, you know, what we do. We tend to inspire other people. I love how on your cover of your book, you've got one husky you're holding up and that husky's just like, what's going on? And then you've got another husky. It looks like he's starting about to bully and cause some husky trouble with the other one. He's got an evil look on his face, which is classic husky.

Now, how many dogs did you have at your height? At our height, 30. 30 dogs? My husband raised two. So we had a kennel. We had a large kennel. We started out with three. And then he said we couldn't walk the three, so I put a sled behind them, and that worked beautifully.

And you can do it with more and more dogs. And as we got more and more training. You know what it was about, though? We could not have done this if we didn't find good mentors, just like in your business. You know, you're forming a business, you find a mentor to help you get through it. That's what helped us learn the sled dog. We had terrific people out there who knew what they were doing. You taught us all the steps.

And we can ask questions, too. We all need role models and mentors. You are not a leader unless you are both a role model and a mentor. You cannot define yourself as a leader unless you can both be a role model and a mentor. Because leaders aren't the people who shout. Leaders aren't the people who point to the way to go. Leaders are the people who develop others. It's your leadership legacy.

You know, the people who you develop are going to move up, and they're going to move you up higher because they're good. So develop your leadership legacy. Be a leader. Be a role model. Be a mentor. That's how everyone gets ahead, right? In your business, I'm sure you have plenty of mentors, right, and role models.

Yeah. When you, you know, the thing is, is people look to a leader to exemplify what they should be doing as followers and, you know, morals, ethics, vision, et cetera, et cetera. And a lot of, I think some leaders don't realize that people are really watching them intensely. You know, we've often joked about how, you know, people put out a PR statement and be like, yeah, here's what our company does, our morals and ethics and how we behave. And then, you know, you see the CEO doing the exact opposite. You're like, you're full of shit. Exactly.

Yeah, so you see a lot of that. 30 Huskies. Man, I thought just juggling two at a time Was hard That's a whole new level You need a lot of organization You need a lot of people to help you Oh yeah, I've got friends who

I think they're in the Carolinas The North Carolinas, but they run The same thing, they run sled dogs And they've got the carts That have the wheels in case there's no snow right and so they they do a whole whole job of it and they love it as a couple they're just they don't have kids either so they're just that's their kids but they have i mean just the amount of work that goes into it like once a year they have a pallet pallets delivered of dog food oh yeah

yeah you you do it you you know you do it yourself it's a year-round thing the dogs want to stay healthy you want to stay healthy oh no you're in great shape we could run 10 miles i can't do that now with the dogs because they need to stay in shape. I got to stay in shape. It really got us moving. And, my God, we got out in nature. We got out in the sun. We were so in the middle of nowhere. And the great thing about working with sled dogs or working with any dogs is they're like a compass for you. They know what's happening out there, and you don't.

They can hear a twig break, and they know that there's a deer or something out there, and they give you an early warning system. Wouldn't you like that in business? Wouldn't you like something to tell you what's on ahead? Yeah. Anticipate all that? And I watched them do that, and it made me more aware of how I look at my surroundings

and how I make judgments about the next step and what I'm going to do next. You learn a lot from animals. I think I'm going to have my Huskies answer the phones and do some of the customer service, the emails. I think they're good at emails. I'm going to have them lead off on a few things. Put those numbers, those letters and numbers on the floor so they can learn to speak to you by tucking it up.

Yeah, there you go. Well, there's a lot of yelling at me that goes on every morning and throughout the day. Whenever it's tree time, there's a lot of, in the morning they're usually like, get up, mofo, and give us our treats, you dummy. And I'm just like, leave me alone. Don't they howl?

Yeah, they howl, they bark, they talk. That's the great thing about huskies. They pretty much cuss you out every day and tell you what a horrible parent you are. Lots of judging going on by the Husky. That seems to be a favorite thing. They give you that look like, I'm going to eat this guy and get rid of him. I love Huskies, though.

I've had four of them. I guess I have one now, so I think we're due for a new one sometime in the next year. I'm still grieving over the other one, but that's one of the biggest challenges you run into with the size of your operation. Back then, we had 30, but some of them belonged to other people, and we put them together. So they took care of them the rest of the year, but they wanted them to be in good shape. So they gave them to us to race for them. So they went back to their owners and their owners spent a lot of time with them,

even when they were with us. But the thing about Huskies and the thing about any dog is it's dedication to you. And you get a dog and unfortunately dogs don't live as long as we do. So you get to that point where you lose a dog. So now that we don't have a team now we only have two or three we we get a dog every six years so we only have one dog alive and healthy um it's it's the only way to do it because of their short

lives yeah it's unfortunate i can think of so many people that are human beings that probably could have some shorter lives, in my opinion. But politicians, maybe. But, you know, it's unfortunate dogs just don't live the long they have. I think that's the toughest thing. But, you know, they're such beautiful animals. They teach you so much. I mean, I can't imagine what a horrible life I would have without dogs. But that's just me.

That's why I talk about work-life harmony. Yeah, yeah. Because that's what animals do. It teaches us to calm down and breathe. Have values and live up to your own values. Plus, it makes you realize you're not as cool as you think you are because you're always being yelled at by huskies my favorite is when they come in the bathroom and they give you this look like you said we can't do this in the house but you can do it this is very poor leadership i think they read your book because i'm not doing exemplary

leadership they're like you how come you get to do it in the house and we don't because this is not fair we're contacting the union filing a grievance. So they're always up to that. It's always the judging with the Husky. Oh, come on. Your people judge you too. That's true, but I care about my Husky's opinion of me for some reason. I don't care about anyone else's.

So give us your final thoughts and pitch out for people on board with you, reach out to you. How can they reach out to you, see if they're a fit, initial calls, stuff like that in your dot coms? Go on the website. Please go on the website. Even if we don't talk, go on the website and download all the stuff you can from there. Give a lot of

free stuff away. Because I've been doing this a long time and I find that when you're ready for it, you'll know and you'll want to get coached. And you can give me a call anytime. We schedule calls and we'll do some interviews and you'll decide if you have the right thing the thing is if you don't choose me make sure you choose the right coach i'll be a good coach for you there are other good people out there but

there's some coaches that may not work with you kind of like the coach that shares your value oh that that has the same standards that you have value experience those are things you look for in a coach so look for people who you can talk to that you feel. Value, experience, those are things you look for in a coach. So look for people who you can talk to, that you feel comfortable with. Yeah. I would say you've got to be a great coach, because if you used to work with 30 huskies and the abuse that goes on there, I mean, that is

something else. That is something else. I have dreams about doing that, and then I see my friends who do the work in it, and I'm just like, yeah, no, I'm not that. I'm not that. I'm not that into that. I like just having two of them and they can play with each other. But 30 dogs that's a lot. So thank you very much Lucille

for coming on the show and sharing your expertise your thoughts and your knowledge and all that good stuff with the audience. It was a pleasure chatting with you. Have a good day. Thank you. And thanks to our audience for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com forward slash Chris Foss. LinkedIn.com for it says Chris Foss. Chris Foss

won the TikTokity and all those crazy places on the internet. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time. And that should have us