The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Never Far from Home: My Journey from Brooklyn to Hip Hop, Microsoft, and the Law by Bruce Jackson

Episode Date: February 10, 2023

Never Far from Home: My Journey from Brooklyn to Hip Hop, Microsoft, and the Law by Bruce Jackson Microsoft’s associate general counsel shares this story that is “as nuanced as it is hopeful��� (Hakeem Jeffries, House Minority Leader) about his rise from childhood poverty in pre-gentrified New York City to a stellar career at the top of the technology and music industries in this stirring true story of grit and perseverance. For fans of Indra Nooyi’s My Life in Full and Viola Davis’s Finding Me. As an accomplished Microsoft executive, Bruce Jackson handles billions of dollars of commerce as its associate general counsel while he plays a crucial role in the company’s corporate diversity efforts. But few of his colleagues can understand the weight he carries with him to the office each day. He kept his past hidden from sight as he ascended the corporate ladder but shares it in full for the first time here. Born in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, Jackson moved to Manhattan’s Amsterdam housing projects as a child, where he had already been falsely accused and arrested for robbery by the age of ten. At the age of fifteen, he witnessed the homicide of his close friend. Taken in by the criminal justice system, seduced by a burgeoning drug trade, and burdened by a fractured, impoverished home life, Jackson stood on the edge of failure. But he was saved by an offer. That offer set him on a better path, off the streets and eventually on the way to Georgetown Law, but not without hard knocks along the way. But even as he racked up professional accomplishments, Jackson is still haunted by the unchanged world outside his office. From public housing to working for Microsoft’s president, Brad Smith, and its founder, Bill Gates, to advising some of the biggest stars in music, Bruce Jackson’s Never Far from Home reveals the ups and downs of an incredible journey, how he overcame many obstacles and the valuable lessons learned along the way.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the big show, my friends. We certainly appreciate you guys tuning in.

Thanks for being here. We've got an amazing author on the show with a brilliant story. You're going to love being able to hear his tale and everything he put into his amazing new book that's hitting bookshelves wherever fine books are sold. Remember to stay in those alleyway bookstores because they're bad for you. I had to get a tetanus shot after being one the other day. I think I caught swine flu or something in there. I don't know.

Stay where you are. Just always go to the good bookstores, which I think all bookstores are pretty much good bookstores. Anyway, guys, go to YouTube.com, 4ChessChrisVoss. Go to Goodreads.com, 4ChessChrisVoss. Go to LinkedIn.chrissvoss. All the crazy stuff on the Internet that we perform at as well. Today, we have the amazing author of the newest, hottest book, like I mentioned, that's coming out, Never Far From Home, My Journey From Brooklyn to Hip-Hop, Microsoft,

and the Law. We have Bruce Jackson on the show with us today. He'll be talking to us about his amazing new book, and we're going to get some insight into what a journey that is. He is the Associate General Counsel for Microsoft and a former entertainment attorney. He's an advisory board member of the National Association of Minority and Women-Owned Law Firms and the Universal Hip-Hop Museum in the Bronx. That's quite the stretch. He still resides in Brooklyn, and Never Far From Home is his first book. Welcome to the show, Bruce.

How are you? Thank you for having me chris i'm wonderful thank you for coming it's good to have you man you represent so many different things there we're like covering the whole spectrum there no we absolutely are right from the very beginning different career paths i had there you go it's a technology there you go so your book comes out on february 7th 2023, pre-ordered if you guys can. So what motivated you want to write this book, Bruce? Well, the truth be told, I practiced entertainment law for several years and my entertainment clients always approached me about writing a book

because typically my background really reflects the clients that I supported and represented. And what I mean by that, I grew up in the inner city. And if you think about rap, a lot of that, I grew up in the inner city. And if you think about rap, a lot of the rap artists actually are from the inner city. So their philosophy was, Bruce, write a book. Let's try to inspire people to be more than just rappers and athletes. Let's let them know that there's a possibility

that people who come from our community can be doctors and lawyers as well. So that was the basis of actually writing the book. But now that I wrote the book, spoke to my vice chairman and president, Brad Smith, he spent like two hours with me. He said, Bruce, I come from Wisconsin, which is middle America. And this book can inspire not just people in urban America, but middle America, rural America. It can inspire women immigrants. It can also inspire people who are privileged, right? Because they do have obstacles to overcome. But more importantly, for people who are

privileged, it's about really giving them proximity to what life is like living in the inner city. And when you give people proximity, they pretty much can create empathy or have empathy. And with the empathy, they can support us all on this journey to make this world kind of a better place for all of us to live. There you go. When we had Eddie Glaude Jr. on, we talked about Baldwin.

And one of the things we talked about was what some of our problems with inner cities and suburbs and different things is, is a lot of it, especially with like redlining stuff was made to separate some of our classes. And when they did that, we lost what you mentioned, that empathy, that understanding with each other.

You know, we're not spending time barbecuing together and stuff like that. And so that distance and that separation make it sometimes hard where we run into these issues with everybody, not getting along with everybody else. So we all need to get along. We all need to get along and we all need to get along. We all need to get along and we all need to understand each other and realize the struggles and the challenges that we each have. And let's try to remove some of those barriers or obstacles that people have in life. Bruce, give us an overview of the book.

Give us like a 30,000 view of what's in the book and some of the tease-outs. There's a lot in the book, really. One of the things that, and the common comment that I'm getting from a lot of people, is that as an executive sitting in the office of the vice chairman of a top five company, that I'm telling the truth, right? Most people at this level don't really tell the truth. So I tell the truth. When you live in the inner city, you have one foot in and one foot out. There you go. And certain things that I actually did is just a byproduct of actually living in the city. And if it wasn't for intervention or people stepping in at the right time, Chris, I wouldn't be here to

talk to you today, nor would I be an attorney or an attorney at Microsoft if people didn't come in to kind of save the day for me. But no, I start by telling about my journey in Brooklyn, where I grew up, a single parent household. I had five other brothers and sisters. We lived on public assistance. The school system wasn't that great, which is still isn't in a lot of urban areas. And what we did at the age of nine, I left Brooklyn and I actually moved to Manhattan to the projects. And those who don't know what the projects are, it's public housing. A tall building right across from Lincoln Center. So when I lived in Brooklyn, I had no idea, interestingly enough, that I was poor because everyone was poor.

But when I moved to Manhattan and the projects, I was able to look at Lincoln Center and across the street and they weren't middle class. They were rich. And so that's when I realized there was a difference, right? So when I grew up, I mean, typically you had a lot of people who had money, right, in my community, but a lot of them were not doing legal things, right? A lot of activities around selling drugs or committing crime. And I kind of stayed away from those things. And I did other things, right? Once you read the book, you realize I went and I took newspapers from the newsstands early in the morning. I was selling them. Now that was still illegal, but it was less of a crime than the other crimes that others were committing to accumulate wealth. And so I would call that entrepreneuristic

really. Well, and that's what some people are calling it, because what's the choice? I saw a lot of people come in and out of the facilities, the jail, or get killed. And that wasn't an option I wanted to pursue because I didn't want to disappoint my mother, my grandmother, or my aunt. And so essentially, that's sort of the things I did until I got out of high school. did until I got out of high school. And before I got out of high school, certainly my teacher was like, you're not ready. And what I did, you're going to find interesting, Chris, there's a program called the co-op program, where you work one week and go to school one week in high school. And I went to a high school that

wasn't a very good high school, Martin Luther King Jr. High School in the city. So it's ironic that I'm not going to a good high school to begin with, but now I'm going to school part time. But I decided to do that because what was the alternative doing something illegal? So that was a legitimate form of business. Right. A legitimate form of earning an income. So I did that. And as a result, I wasn't quite prepared for college. And I was told that by my high school teacher. But I buckled down and I went to Hofstra University. And at that point, it was still challenging because I was only allowed to go to Hofstra through a HIAC program, Higher Education Opportunity Program. I had to complete

a summer program to gain admissions. So that was challenging for me as well, right? But ultimately, what kept me going and what I used for my entire life to motivate me, to drive me forward, I realized the average person in UNL doesn't want to work more than the maximum time required. So it's a nine to five job. At 5.01, they're gone. So you can catch them. If you work to 5.30, you'll catch people. So it's a nine to five job at five or one, they're gone. So you can catch them. If you work the 530, you'll catch people. So there was two quotes that kept me going. Frederick Douglass says, there's no struggle, there's no progress, similar to no pain, no gain. It's going to hurt because you're starting from a point of disadvantage first. No one's smarter than you. They just have the resources that you didn't have. And now what I have to

do is another poem, which is by Longfellow that talks about the height of reaching kept by great men were not achieved by sudden flight, but they while their companions slept were tolling upwards during the night. So what does that mean? You're outworking people. So my whole life was

built on, it's going to be painful, but you have to do it. But you can outwork people and you can catch them. So I use that at Hofstra. I use that when I went to Georgetown Law School. I use that when I was practicing entertainment law. And I continue to use it as Microsoft. I can catch whoever.

And this because I try to always tell people no one's smarter than anyone else. If I take someone, a kid who was born in a privileged community, let's say Scarsdale or Bronxville in Westchester, and put them in the projects or public housing, and I take someone from the public housing and put them in Scarsdale or Bronxville, they'll do well because it's all about environments and resources. And you have to ask yourself, if that's the answer, why not the resources reaching those who are less privileged? Yeah, the environment you grow up in has an effect on you. And sometimes if it's dark and depressing and there's issues there, trauma,

whatever the case may be, it's hard to see outside of that environment. It's hard to see outside of that environment. It's hard to see outside of that box. No, you're absolutely right. And get a vision to try and, you know, do a moonshot out of that area. Were you the first in your family to go to college? I was the first in my family, but not just my generation, my entire family. Going back generations. And there's pressure with that, too, where you feel you have to carry the mantle of that, right? Well, there's a lot of pressure, but that's why I did it because to be quite honest

with you, at one point I was ready to stop college because I said, this is too difficult. And I called my mother and my mother was like, if you want to come home, come home. Cause my mother didn't want to see her son in pain. But my aunt, on the other hand said, Bruce, what are you going to come home to? Are you going to go back to the projects? I said, I don't know. She said, are you going to go back to Chase Manhattan Bank and work in the basement making copies? I said, I don't know. And she ultimately said, you can't come back because your grandmother cleaned people's houses all her life. She picked cotton. She couldn't look people in the face. She had to say,

yes, sir. No. Yes, ma'am. Your mother had to put your mother pick cotton and did the same. And so did I. So you're not doing it for yourself. You're doing it for the generations of Jackson's. Right. And you'll be the first. And it's up to you to try to inspire the next generation. And she hung up. She hung up. I got the message that, you know, Bruce, this is not, this is greater than you. It's not about you. It's about the next generation and making the previous generation proud. That's some hell of pressure to put on you. I mean, that's pressure. And you're a young man and you're trying to figure all this stuff out. And, and, uh, but you know, you wrote, you titled the book, never far from home my journey

from brooklyn to hip-hop microsoft and the law um talk about that a little bit that's why you titled it never far from home i think you know some people say um when you grow up in the ghetto it's it's you can't get the ghetto out of the man i think we're i think we're all impacted by the trauma or whatever we experienced from childhood. It seems to be a big shape of our life. What made you title the book Never Far From Home? Well, the irony is that here I am at Microsoft closing $100 million, billion-dollar deals. And Microsoft Office in Manhattan is literally a mile away from where I grew up in the projects.

So that's one of the reasons. And I'm always going back because I still have family and friends, whether it's in the projects I grew up in Manhattan or in Brooklyn or in the Bronx. So I'm always closely connected to the community in which I grew up in. So that's why it's never far from home. Do you hope with your book that it tells a tale of, of what it's like to overcome that? I mean, one of the problems with success when you come from being poor, I, I went through that. You, you get money and you start fucking shit up, or at least I did. Uh, and some people

do, you know, you see NFL stars that, you know, they have problems, um, when they become hyper successful, uh, because their trauma and different issues from their childhood are still haunting them and uh uh do you hope that people with your book kind of help walk through some of that did you did you go through any of that as you became successful the you know there's the syndrome that you get of imposter syndrome where you feel like you maybe aren't worthy enough of growing up. I know I went through that. Well, some people say they went through that. I was confident.

I'm still confident in terms of the imposter syndrome. I think I belong here. I don't think anyone was smarter than me. I told you my basis is that you're just privileged and you had resources that I didn't have. And I'll catch you. And I did catch many people, right? Because I'll just outwork you. And so I never had that. I think in terms of money management, I'm always fiscally responsible and conservative. I think some people just don't have the privilege or the benefit of having those sort

of discussions growing up. When you pour, you just don't have those type of discussions, right? Because you're living day to day. And that's what's important. That is awesome. That is awesome. And you got U.S. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries to review the book. That's pretty darn awesome, man. He just became a lead House U.S. Minority Leader. Yeah, he is. And hopefully he'll be the Speaker of the House someday. Hopefully so. I think he understands it, right? So he gets it because he grew up in Brooklyn himself.

It's all about trying to inspire not just people in urban cities. I just want to set clear. It's about inspiring, like I said, women. It's about inspiring immigrants. It's about inspiring people of the LGBTQ plus community. It's about inspiring people of the lgbtq plus community it's about inspiring um women as well so it's about just inspiring the world so we can just get people create a level playing field for people there was a lot that went on that you talk about in the book um about some of the stuff you witness some of the stuff you experience uh let's talk about some

of the people that help shape you or guide you through the experiences. And there's always, I think in many people's lives, there's those people that kind of have that indelible moment. Sometimes it's just a moment, but it's indelible and stays with you. Sometimes it's a teacher or a leader. Sometimes it's experience of a bottom. Let's touch on or tease out some of those, if you would. Right. I think I was fortunate that I had people along the path play a mentor role. Right. And I think that people just need to be open that your mentor, people come in your life, doesn't have to look like you. There are good people out there in the world. And that's what happened to me from college. I had a mentor who was a Harvard graduate from Harvard Law School. And he basically said, Bruce, I think you'll be an excellent lawyer.

And he was a Caucasian man. And he and I became good friends to the extent where I would go to his house in Paramus, New Jersey and spend time with he and his family. And one of the interesting things is after I graduated from Hofstra, I got offers from almost all the big eight accounting firms. Wow. That tells you how old I am, right? Now there's the big four. And I was going to go with Arthur Anderson and the recruiter, she, at one breath, she said, this is the package Arthur Anderson wants to offer you. We want you to come join the firm. But then she said, what do you really want to do? I said, I want to go to law school. She said, well, don't take this offer. He said, what law school are want to do? I said, I want to go to law school. She said, well, don't take this offer. He said, what school are you applying to? I said, Georgetown. She said, well, why don't you set up a meeting and talk to someone at Georgetown?

And so she just pivoted me because I would have went for the money. Right. I mean, at that point, I come from the inner city. It was an opportunity for me to help myself and my family. But she redirected me. Right. And then all my life, I think even in the music industry, I had people said, Hey, including Sylvia Rohn said, Hey, listen, this is how you should negotiate with people in the industry. Right. And then Microsoft, I had Brad Smith, who was the actual, the vice chair and president of Microsoft. I would say he has been my sponsor throughout my entire career and someone that I can talk to. So I think that I had people like that.

Right. But you still got to work hard because working hard is just not enough. You have to be able to network and get people to support you. You know, when it comes to having those sort of influences in your life, is it is it not only something that you need to have somebody have an effect on you? It sounds like you took a lot of self-actualization and responsibility and going, hey, this person can help me. What can I learn from them? You know, some people don't listen to the ground.

They don't listen to the stories and the rumbling and, you know, the train that's coming or whatever. And I mean, sometimes people have that. Like I say, they have it sometimes in a subconscious and dealable effect on you. Sometimes it's very conscious. When did you know you wanted to be an attorney? Well, you're going to laugh at this one. Initially, Perry Mason. I'm not sure if you remember Perry Mason.

I saw him and i wanted to be an attorney but that sort of changed and i wanted to be more of a criminal attorney later on because i saw the injustice that was taking place in the community but what happened was because of my passion and interest for accounting i end up becoming a tax attorney there you go and that's probably one of the most that's probably the area I miss the most, to be quite honest with you. That's the ironic thing. Oh, you miss accounting.

I miss more tax, being a tax attorney than accounting. There you go. Well, you know, there's still time. You can do whatever you want with your life at this point. No, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. Who knows, right? Who knows where God will lead me from this point.

There you go. But you know, it's great that you've gone through this journey and now you're using your influence and your success to shine a light, to be a beacon of light for other people to say, hey, you can make it out of the ghetto. You can make it out of being raised poor. There's a shot here. And I think we need more of that. We need more of an example. You work with hip hop and hip hop artists, I guess, in the community there. Talk to us a little bit about some of what you do there. Oh, when I was an entertainment attorney, I think my first client was Pete Rock, CL Smooth, and Tony Dolfat. And what's amazing is that during that time, you had a lot of African-American entertainers. However, you had very few of us representing them as attorneys. So that was kind of new coming into that field. And I always give my previous clients credit for where I am. In fact, I spoke to Pete probably last week and I just remind him and I think to him, I said, I appreciate you as a young man and trusting your

career and another African-American young man. So a lot of attorneys want you to think that they made artists career, but I'm here to tell you that an artist or your client really makes your career. And it was people like Pete Rock, Tony Dofet, LL Buster, who really made my career and made me who I am today. So one of the things that is always interesting is why did I leave the entertainment industry when I had really top A clients? Because we talk a lot now and you hear the word digital transformation a lot. But if we really think about what transpired in the music industry, the digital transformation took place in 2000. And what do I mean by that? We had physical distribution of records. And in 2000, the invent of Napster made it digital and people now was

able to digitally play and retrieve music. So that kind of changed the entire landscape of the music industry. And I thought that it would have been it would be interesting to go with the technology company, learn as much as possible from a technology standpoint, and then come back to the music industry again with a competitive advantage in the marketplace. To me, I think people need to always look at where the industry was, where it is, and where it's going so you can stay ahead of the curve. And so from a strategic standpoint, that's why I joined Microsoft with the expectation that I'll be there for two years. But when I look back at the music industry two years later, it was discovered that it was upside down. They didn't embrace technology, one, and they didn't come up with a business model for this new means of distribution. So I said, it's not the time to go.

And they haven't, they suffered for a while. And now it's finally starting to come around. There you go. And so now you've been with Microsoft for how long? I've been with Microsoft for my 23rd years and held a variety of jobs, the first being the digital media division. Then I supported the entire U.S., which is a $20 billion business.

Then I ended up supporting a very strategic organization called Regulated Industries, which was a $15 billion business. And one of the things that are billed to the book is many of edge of your seat stories. That was one of the references I think that someone put into the book, different life altering events and stuff. But you talk in your book about perseverance and overcoming adversity. What do you cite as maybe some other things that we haven't talked about that maybe made a difference for you in that? I think really when people ask me that, they said, what is it?

I think two things. The core was the three important women in my life. Well, I mentioned my grandmother, my mom and my mother that just kept me going when I wanted to quit. Right. And I think that my philosophy is I couldn't afford to fail. Failure was never an option because the option would be going back to which I came. And that certainly was not an option. And I realized that I'm doing this for a bigger purpose. Right. The side is for other people to really look at me.

And you're absolutely right. One of the things you said that's interesting is I'm also trying to inspire people who come from a background in which they struggle, regardless whether it's rural America, regardless if it's immigrants. I think that everyone needs to really share their story in an authentic and an honest way, because it's the most incredible tool that we all have to inspire the next generation. There you go. Most of us try to hide it, but I think we need to, hopefully I can inspire people to say it's okay to tell people your struggle and not be embarrassed. And there's no consequence to that other than the fact that we're going to make this a better world.

And that's the beauty of memoirs like yours and stories like yours is, is, you know, I remember when I was writing my book, I was really struggling at the end of it. And I was at that point of madness in editing where I was, you know, I was doing the typing that was saying, all work and no play makes Jack a dope boy. I was pretty much at that mad point. What was the movie I'm referencing?

Anyway, but I remember talking to one of the authors we had on, and she said that she had met at a book signing a gal who loved her books, and she'd come out of prison. And they had used her book in prison with the women's prison to share it around and create a little reading group. And they used her book to inspire them to, you know, get out of prison eventually and, and, and move on with better things for their lives. And, uh, and, and so it made her realize the selfishness of what she was going through

in writing her book, that really there were, there are people that needed to read this book that needed to were there are people that needed to read this book that needed to hear her story and uh so she keeps a picture of that uh young lady on her desk in the yellow in the orange jumpsuit to remember that it's not it's it's not just about what her experience was in her memoir and her her writing but how our stories help each other and help each other grow and inspire each other grow and inspire each other and, and also make it so that we don't feel so alone in the world. A lot of people that suffer traumas or childhood indignation or suffrage, you know, you, you feel like you're alone. You're

like, I'm just, the world hates me and I'm the only person and I'm maybe the only person going through this hell. And, and so books like yours and inspiration that sending that out to the universe, tell stories and help people get inspired and realize that, well, hey, if he can do it, so can I. Right, right. I think you're absolutely right. One of the other things you said that's interesting, that other people feel comfortable and said, God, it's just not me. Many of my colleagues who are immigrants, they'll say, Bruce, you know what? I'm glad you were brave enough to share that story because that's the life I live. But I wasn't brave enough to really share it. So it makes me feel comfortable now that you live the same life and it wasn't just me living that way.

I suffer. So I think you're right. It's about really when you write my personally, when I wrote a book like this is all about inspiring people. That's the only reason I wrote it. Right. And it's not just one group of people. It's really about us all trying to help each other remove obstacles and barriers. But we have to educate. Like you said earlier, we have to educate you, Chris. These are the obstacles that I face. And if you hear it and if you have any heart or conscious, you say, Bruce, we need to remove that. So the next person like you wouldn't have to go through it. And you may say, well, Bruce, these are the obstacles, right? And I'll say, Chris, we need to work on that. So people from your community don't have to go through that. We're all in this together, right? Not one person, one ethnicity,

one group can really change it. We all have to buy into this. One helps all. Yeah. I mean, having an empathy, understanding people's journey through life, telling stories. I had another author shortly after that tell me, there's somebody who needs to hear the story you're telling. And you don't know who they are. You'll probably never meet them. You'll probably never know. But they need to hear the story you're telling.

And you're writing this book for them. You don't even realize that it's not about you. It's about them. And they need to hear the story you're telling. And you're writing this book for them. You don't even realize that it's not about you. It's about them. And they need your book written. And because I think it was at the point of throwing it all out the window. My other friends were all like, well, their friends were all like, no, if you're ready to throw it out the window and burn it all, that you're almost there. You're almost there. I'm like, this is insanity. Absolutely. But they're like, you're almost there. You're almost there. I'm like, this is insanity. Absolutely. But they're like, you're almost there. One of the things you talk about in your book that's a great story lesson is reinventing yourself and reinvention.

Let's talk about some of your thoughts on that. Yeah. Like I stated earlier, right? I think one of the things I try to encourage people to do is, one, speak up always, right? It's just not about good work. You have to promote yourself or let people know what you're doing. But more importantly, you have to be strategic

and you have to look for certain opportunities, right? And you have to create some of them sometimes. And that's what I did, right? So from a tax attorney, I went to an entertainment attorney. From an entertainment attorney, I went to a technology attorney at one of the biggest

companies. And within Microsoft, I was able to do a host of things, even work on the very thing that we talk about is diversity and inclusion, right? Try to make diversity inclusion an important part of the culture and the fabric of Microsoft, but also other companies, right? So I was able to do all that. So it's about certainly looking at different opportunities and reinventing yourself. But you've got to have a passion and interest in some of these things as well. And resources and access are important as well. Absolutely. Extremely, extremely important.

We've had a lot of diversity authors on the show that have written books about diversity and inclusion. I think one from LinkedIn and stuff. And, you know, it's kind of under attack now. We're seeing some of that in, there's rumblings that the Florida governor might take away some of the college things for, you know, helping with the diversity and inclusion and things. I won't get into the specifics of it, but generally, you know, it seems to be under attack at several different places by certain parties. What do you think about that? And why is it important for us to have diversity and inclusion in your mind, in your words? I think it's only under attack by a small group. I think the majority of the people in America and the world thinks it's important.

I think a business proposition, we know it's important, right? We have moved away from just being the right thing. I think one of the simplest things to think about is that if you have a marketing company and you're marketing to a mass group of individuals, you can insult the group if you don't really know all the sensitivities, right? So you want to have your marketing group be extremely diverse so they can market to that group that you're trying to sell your product or services to. And this has slipped up in the past, right? People say, God, I didn't know how to offend that group. That's only because you didn't have someone that represent that group

as part of your team. So therefore, it's extremely important. And just to have from a legal perspective, people from different backgrounds has proven that they end up giving you better products and services to you. Yeah. A more diverse sort of input. So it makes sense from a business perspective. So we have to get to the point where everyone's buying in on it. I don't think we have moved that far, particularly in the legal profession. And the last 20 years is ironic. The legal profession is lagging behind other industries when it comes to diversity and inclusion. Really? That's interesting to hear. So, I mean, do they need

more diversity officers maybe in the legal departments? Is that a fix that maybe needs to happen or just more education? I think we spend a lot on education. I think that right now when we look at the numbers and we realize it hasn't improved that much, the first thing people say is let's draft another white paper and figure out why. And my thing is we just need leadership at the top to really be committed to this thing and be intentional about it. I think one of the things you see, people say they have diversity and inclusion metrics as part of a scorecard, how they evaluate employees, but they don't have it separate as part of the general scorecard of how you evaluate employees at the end of the year. I think one of the things that would be helpful is if they separate from that scorecard diversity and inclusion and assign a metric to that in terms of bonuses.

And I think you'll start seeing people really comply. You should reward people who would, you reward people who embrace and adopt your philosophy and culture and you penalize those who don't. So if you just tie it to some sort of compensation, you'll see things change. That's always seems to be the money monitor.

Thanks everybody. Right, right. I think that's right. It's that we can't just have empathy. But, you know, there are brilliant minds everywhere. The one thing I learned a long time ago as being the CEO of my companies is I am not the arbitrator. I am not the corner market of all the great ideas. In fact, if anything, I have some pretty bad ideas, and they're very costly.

You know, and so, you know, we see this world, you know, immigrants. So they're the head of Google. It came from India. I believe he grew up on a dirt floor, if I understand correctly. Steve Jobs, I mean, you look at the impact. His father was an immigrant from Syria. Absolutely. The impact he had on the world.

There's no arbiter of great ideas. There's no color. There's no class. There's no, you know, the beauty of America is someone can be an entrepreneur and come from a challenged background. And if they resolve problems or create something that's awesome, they can kick ass doing it. So it's great to have these stories.

It's great to have these inspirations, especially to give a vision out of ghettos and different poverty situations or trauma from childhood trauma. It's so interesting to me. So many of the authors we have on the show and the stories we talk about really all come down to like childhood trauma and childhood shaping and overcoming that and beating it out and that making a difference in the world. But part of that has to be addressed. You've got to address that trauma and say, this is who I am, and how do I move on for this to improve myself? But I think part of it, too, Chris, is resources, right? One of the things that we realize is that in Brooklyn, 40 percent of the people are without broadband.

And broadband, we know, is the gatekeeper to one education. And we found that out as a result of the pandemic is the gatekeeper to health, telehealth. Right. The gatekeeper to jobs that people go online to look for jobs. Yeah. People go online to get training. So if you don't give everyone broadband, you're putting some people at a disadvantage. So one of the things that I played a role in with Microsoft and who worked with the union as well as Verizon is to try to get broadband in those communities that do not have them.

Yeah, it's interesting to me. It's 2023. You think we'd have everybody on the Internet. It's an Internet world, as you mentioned. You can't look for a job or get a'd have everybody on the internet it's an internet world as you mentioned you can't look for a job or get a job without you know being on the internet uh it's a little bit hard i think there were the obama phones or something that were put out at one point that i'd read about to try and get everybody on the uh to try and get everybody on the internet or at least you know be able to, to browse the internet stuff.

It should be a thing where just everyone is free. Everyone's on it. And it has to be free, right? Because it's affordability. When you say someone has to pay $50 and they're struggling to eat, they're going to buy food and pay their rent as opposed to get internet access. So it has to be affordable and it has to be available to particularly people in rural as well as in urban areas most definitely most definitely well anything more we want to tease out in your book won't people order up of course go read all the good stuff in it anything more we want to tease out or suggest in your book before we go no i think there's just a lot of things that the details of certain stories that we didn't really talk about but i I think getting a book, you'll read about that and all the incidents that took place.

There you go. Order up the book, give it to a friend, and it'll make a good Valentine's Day gift because it's coming out on February 7th. There you go. Absolutely. Give it with a box of chocolates. There you go.

So, Bruce, it's been wonderful that you have on the show. Give us your dot coms, wherever people can find out or learn more about you on the interwebs. I think the easiest way to find anything about me is to go to LinkedIn and you'll see my name and you'll go to Instagram and you'll see the official Bruce Jackson, but Instagram official Bruce Jackson. No, you'll just go to Bruce Jackson on LinkedIn. There you go. Thank you very much for coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you. much for coming on, Bruce. I really appreciate it. Thank you. I appreciate being here. Thanks. Thank you. And thanks to my audience for tuning in.

Go to YouTube.com, 4ChessChrisFoss, Goodreads.com, 4ChessChrisFoss, and all those crazy places around the internet. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time.