The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Next Level Sales Coaching: How to Build a Sales Team That Stays, Sells, and Succeeds by Steve Johnson, Matthew Hawk

Episode Date: December 21, 2024

Next Level Sales Coaching: How to Build a Sales Team That Stays, Sells, and Succeeds by Steve Johnson, Matthew Hawk Amazon.com Do you remember being "in the trenches" as a salesperson? What did you think of your sales manager? If you're like many front-line sellers, you probably didn't think she or he was a wonderful example of leadership who could inspire you to do your best in life and in work. The unfortunate truth is that many sales managers―well-meaning though they usually are―lack the skills and know-how to help their sales teams grow and achieve greater success. Over a combined 50 years of experience as salespeople, managers, coaches, and executives, authors Steve Johnson and Matthew Hawk have witnessed the do's and don'ts of top performing sales teams. Next Level Sales Coaching is the culmination of their experience. In this book, they distill what they have learned working with organizations like Google, Bank of America, Enterprise Rent-A-Car, and many more. The result is a compendium of best sales coaching practices with the power to make any sales manager into an inspirational and transformational leader. At its heart, this book is about how to integrate a person-centered development mindset into sales environments. Readers will work through practical examples, including a self-assessment, to identify the best way to implement strong coaching programs within their organizations. Each chapter concludes with takeaway questions and tips that sales leaders can use right away. From goal setting to daily sales huddles, and sales development training to analytics, Next Level Sales Coaching covers the best practices that readers will want to implement to take sales management to the next level.About the author Matt Hawk PhD is President of B2bTrainers. He was formerly Vice President of Instructional Design, Sales Process, and Training Delivery at Synchrony. He began his sales career at Gartner, selling to technology vendors, and later managed the sales team for US Interactive during the dot-com era. From 2004 to 2017 he sold, developed, and implemented dozens of customized sales performance improvement programs in the USA, Canada, Mexico, the Philippines, India, and Brazil for sales managers and their teams at Fortune 500 companies through the sales training companies he founded, Retention Specialists and Customer Loyalty Specialists. Matt earned his doctorate from Yale University and is a member, contributing author, and speaker on the topic of sales enablement for the Association for Talent Development.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com.

Ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, this is the Mixed Division. Welcome to the big show. For over 16 years, going on 17 with over 2,200 episodes, We will serve the Lord. improve the quality of your life. And if they don't improve the quality of your life, don't make me pull the car over and come back there, folks. Go to goodreads.com, Fortress Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress Chris Foss, YouTube.com, Fortress Chris Foss, and all the crazy places on the internet where they do the crazy posting of things. I don't know what that means.

Anyway, it just sounded cool in my head at the time. So we have another amazing young man on the show. His latest book is called next level sales coaching how to build a sales team that stays sells and succeeds matthew hawk is on the show with us today he's a phd a coach trainer we're going to get into some of the details about him and he's going to tell us more about himself welcome to the show matthew how are you chris i'm doing well it's great to see you again it's good to see you again too and give give us your dot coms. Where do you want people to find you on those interwebs in the sky? Sure. My website is Matt with two Ts,

matthawk.focalpointcoaching.com. My email is mhawk at Focal Point Coaching. And you can always find me on LinkedIn under Matt Hawk, PhD. So give us a 30,000 overview of your kind of bio rundown on you too. And then of course, what's in your new book? Oh, thank you, Chris. So I've been coaching business people for about 25 years, mostly in sales leadership, but I've recently pivoted to CEO coaching, small to medium coaching for professional services firms. But going back to the book, my partner and I, Steve Johnson, co-author, you know, have coached thousands of salespeople and sales managers over the years at a lot of big companies. And, you know, we believe selling is a noble profession, even though there is a negative stereotype out there. You know, we believe in ethical, consultative sales, and sales managers are pivotal.

But a lot of them don't really have good role models coming up with salespeople. So we wanted to give them a practical guide. I mean, it's funny to me how sales, you know, I grew up with that same sort of stigma. I don't want to sell. It's, you know know rejection is painful and you know asking people for money and blah blah blah blah but we're selling all day long as human beings each other to us to ourselves and to other people you know we we drive we'd buy cars that sell what our images you know if you got married

you're probably selling each other in the relationship, or at least one of you was. The benefits of getting married and building something, you were selling them on the features and benefits. Sometimes I've had people selling me on why their dinner they made is so good, what they put into it. We're all selling each other all the time and selling ourselves too all the time, which reminds me all the time which reminds me you can find chris voss and only fan no i'm just kidding don't do that folks they do a podcast over there that aren't normal only fans podcasts which is kind of interesting we looked at them one time they invited us and we're like yeah i don't really think this is for us but but you

know there's still time that's my backup you know there's always there was the thunder down under show of the chris voss on the only. Perfect. We've sunk that joke as far as we could probably go. But you know, it's just one of those things. And so you guys sat down and wrote this book. What was kind of some of the proponents behind it? You know, you can almost tell a successful sales manager by looking at their calendar because great managers have a cadence of meetings, either one-on-one or group meetings in which the magic happens. And that's what we do in the book is break down all those different types of meetings with agendas and so forth. But the upshot, the upshot is you create a team, both as a group and as individuals that they're motivated,

they're inspired, and they feel supported by their manager, and they're continually getting feedback on their performance. So managers who manage to create a cadence to follow to make those things happen can count on being successful. And so you guys help teach them those components and how to make things work. You know, I mean, we've all had the bad sales manager. We've all had the bad sales manager. We've all had the

bad sales teams. You know, I might've been the bad sales guy when I first got into car sales. I remember they, you know, the stories in my book, they almost fired me. My sales manager came to me one day and he goes, you're not going to make it more than a couple more days. And you need to learn to sell. You need to learn to close. And he goes, look, I know you're a broke kid. I know you don't have a lot of money. You're living on ROM and you're trying learn to sell, and you need to learn to close. And he goes, look, I know you're a broke kid. I know you don't have a lot of money. You're living on ROM, and you're trying to make it as a kid. He goes, I'm going to give you $10 to go buy Zig Ziglar's book,

The Secrets of Closing the Sale, I think it was. Sure. And he goes, but you can't spend this money on going and buying a burger. You've got to go buy the book. And I need you to spend the next two days at night consuming this book and learning how to sell because you're on the list to go. And I was like, thank you. I didn't realize at the time it was the greatest gift that probably anyone would give to me, one of them. And so I went and got the book, consumed it, and the rest is history, as they say, I suppose, in some way.

Chris, I'm really curious. Do you remember any specific adjustments you made? I wasn't closing. I mean, there was a lot. Like, just opening Zig Ziglar's book was like, you know, I knew how to shake hands and be friendly and stuff. And, you know, I knew how to do features and benefits of a product, you know. And so I knew how to sell, but I didn't know how to close. And that was the big problem. So a lot of guys can do that on dating, and when they meet girls, they know how to sell.

I bought her a drink. Now what? Now what? You have to close. You've got to ask for the number. Otherwise, nothing actionable is not going to happen. And so that was my problem. I just wasn't closing.

And so I, you know, I knew how to read the features of benefits charts. So I don't know what you think of that. You know, closing is, there's a lot of mythology around closing the sale. BC, always be closed. Yeah. A lot of mysticism. But I will tell you, there's a, there's a simple, very, very powerful thing that people can do. And it doesn't matter if you're a counselor, a coach, a parent, or an ethical salesperson.

And that is, after you have helped the person verbalize all their pain and the gap between where they want to be and where they're going to be in the future. You summarize it back to them. Just give them all the reasons they gave you and said, what do you want to do? And that's the best close ever. Oh, cause you're speaking at the, at the things that they want to achieve and you're helping them achieve their goals.

You're feeding back to them, you know, their goals and how they want to see themselves or feel in the future. Exactly. The decision they're making. That's right. And they need to see themselves or feel in the future. Exactly. The decision they're making. That's right. And they need to verbalize it, you know,

like a good counselor. Yeah. If you go to a mediocre doctor and say, I want to quit smoking, he might say, do you want the gum or the patch? It's medically correct. But if you go to a really good doctor and say,

I want to quit smoking. And she says, really, that's interesting. How long have you been thinking about quitting smoking? What got you started? What have you tried in the past? Take me forward five years. If you quit, what does it look like? What does it look like if you don't quit? Well, Chris, I understand why you came to see me today. What do you want to do? And that physician is going to get a lot better treatment compliance and get sued less frequently for malpractice than the one who says, do you want the gum or do you want the patch?

Yeah. That's my pickup line at bars, too. Do you want the gum or the patch? Whatever that means. But, you know, the rule we came up with, and I think I learned this from the car business. I think it was a sales guy consultant that showed up and he taught us this rule but the rule is is that we used to have with our employees sold was you ask the client the first question in your mind at mouth after you you know you hey how you doing you have a good day okay you know i see here you you were interested in having this issue resolved we don't buy this

whatever the key was telling asking people what are you trying to accomplish and shutting up? You know, I mean, in our case, our number one business was a mortgage business. You know, people would just go, well, I want a 30-year mortgage and I want 5,000 cash out and a good interest rate. And that really doesn't tell you a lot of motivation of what is behind it. So we'd say, what are you trying to accomplish? Oh, I need the 5,000 to put my kid through college, or we're going to expand the house because we've got a baby on the way. You start really finding out a whole lot more about your customer, what they're trying to

achieve. And by doing so, sometimes you can modify that. There were times where I'd sit down with a customer and be like, you know, I see what you're trying to do here, but if you don't mind, I'll give you advice and you can do either one. But my advice would be to do a 15 year mortgage if you're concerned about paying this down faster and, you know, achieving these results and yada, yada, yada. And then, you know, you show them the math of how you can accelerate it. Or so one example was a lot of people, they wanted a 15 year mortgage. So they pay it off quicker. Right. I say, you really can't afford that, or you can't qualify for that, or it's going to put intense pressure on your, on your finances. But if you do a 30 year mortgage and you just make that extra payment and have that discipline or half payment, you will essentially have a 15 year mortgage.

And they'd be like, Oh, no, whether or not, you know, their wife didn't spend all that extra money at Target. It's their problem. But, you know, listening to the client and understanding what they want and having them understand that you empathize with what they want is paramount. Would you agree with me there? Absolutely. And they need to verbalize what makes those goals important. They don't be satisfied with what they want. Find out why that's important to them. Because when people flag or they have objections, that's where you got to bring it back. Yeah. It's the reason I want to buy a Porsche is because chicks dig it and I'm single. So thereby, give us a little bit of history of yours. How did you get into sales?

How did you get into coaching and helping people and down this road? It's a little bit of an unorthodox story. I got my PhD from Yale University in theology and religion. And I taught for a couple of years. I thought I would spend a career in teaching, but I was following my wife around the country because she had a very successful career. So I ended up going into sales. And then from sales, I went into sales training and now CEO coaching. And sometimes people say, isn't that a stretch? And I said, no, it's all the same thing. It's all about selling intangibles. And I think the other thing I gained from that education is,

you know, consumed books by some of the greatest minds trying to persuade you to agree with them and you learn a little bit about rhetoric and persuasion going through all of that and yeah and so you're chasing your wife around evidently she's trying to run away from you around the maybe what's going on there it It's possible. Yeah. And we do jokes here. And that's what happened to my first five marriages. But so you learned sales. And then at what point do you start teaching other people and getting into that? That was about 2001.

I joined a consulting firm. And we had a couple of real big projects in the first few years. 3,500 salespeople at AOL, if you remember those days with the ubiquitous CDs laying everywhere. And we also had the national sales training contract for Morgan Stanley. And so those were huge projects. And I was apprenticed into the trade. College teaching is not the same as teaching adult learners sales skills. So it was really challenging for me, but apparently I made it through the audition. You lived.

I lived. That's all you need to do. I lived. And I want to give it. That's how I made it through learning sales and stuff. I lived. Somebody cut me a break. You survived.

And on that note, I want to give a shout out today to all the folks who are listening who, if you have a son or a daughter or a niece or a nephew or a spouse or a friend or a neighbor who's running a professional services business, a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant, and they're stressed out and they work too much and they're not making enough money and they're not sure how to scale the business or how to exit the business, I would love to talk to you. Because those are the types of folks that we help. So in the book, I think you mentioned you had a few stories you wanted to tease out. Is that correct?

Yeah, I'd like to share a couple of thoughts and then a story or two. So one thing that happened about the same time we published our book is that the Gallup organization published a book called It's the Manager. And they were trying to analyze employee engagement. And they determined that of all the factors in the workplace, the one that impacted employee engagement more than anything else was the manager. In fact, 70%. And so, Chris, I'm sure you can imagine what the impact is if employees are less engaged. Oh, yeah. They're not going to communicate well. They're not going to trust each other.

They're not going to collaborate as well. They're just going to watch YouTube and TikTok videos. And we also know that when it comes to success, about 85% of it is interpersonal skills. So we always start engagements with disc assessment and eq emotional quotient assessment because it helps people understand you know what are their communication styles what are the strengths what are the opportunities and it also helps people recognize how they might be able to adjust their own styles to be more effective with others oh you know emotional

intelligence seems to be the thing that CEOs really need to have today it seems like we've turned the proverbial corner on just barking orders to people and telling them how it's gonna be and you know now these did I think it comes from kind of more Millennials but then also Gen Zers. And these Gen Z people, they want to be able to get more, they want to emotionally connect more, maybe is the right word, to their jobs. They want it to mean more. They want it to be a part of their thing more. It's pretty interesting how, how it works. And it seems as a leader, you've got to be more about the carrot now than about the stick, right?

I would think so. And, and that starts certainly with understanding, you know, we have different goal areas of our lives, right? Different dimensions that make us feel good or not so good at any time. We've got physical health and mental health, financial, we've got career, we have friends and family, you know, recreation, vacations or whatever it is. And it is a great idea for everybody to spend some quiet time now and then thinking about, you know, how do you feel you're doing in those areas? And, you know, is there a vision of maybe some things you'd like to change up or improve? So that's one thing that I applaud the younger folks for,

is that more holistic approach. I think it's a lot healthier than the man in the gray flannel suit taking the train downtown every day. Yeah. Being connected to something you love makes a difference when you show up. And, and like you mentioned that a four book, you know, a lot of people leave companies on off poor leadership. And, you know, if you manage them all, mishandle them, they don't feel like they're being fulfilled. They, they leave. It's kind of a big deal. Absolutely. In the Gallup book, they found that 63% of companies, their coaching process, it's either random or it's informal. You know, it's catch as catch can. And that's that lack of cadence that I was speaking about earlier. And if managers, you know, Mr. Manager, Ms. Manager, if you you're listening you don't necessarily have to

transform your attitude just schedule these events at a consistent intervals and run the meetings the way they're supposed to run and you will build empathy you'll reduce turnover you'll get people to be recruited to their firm and you'll get more consistent performance it's not complicated but it's got to be done consistently yeah and, and you got it, you know emotional intelligence is not an easy skill to develop I think I don't know. I don't really I never thought about developing emotional intelligence. They just kind of game came there as a As a form of where I developed to and I could see that, you know you watching leaders studying leaders You know, you could be a better leader by, by, you know, taking care of people. But I think, I think it takes some depth to really plumb that, you know,

and develop emotional intelligence when you say it, it takes some, it takes some work. Fortunately, there is science behind it. It's not just all good feelings and one can learn to recognize not only one's own communication styles but others so that you can make those adjustments there's a great book called surrounded by idiots that you know we think we're surrounded by idiots but in fact we're just not recognizing the ways that they prefer to work and so a ceo or anybody, you can raise your EQ score if you want to. You can be on Twitter and be surrounded by idiots. We like to give the Twitter and I'm going to call it Twitter until I don't know if something

better comes out of it, but I doubt that's going to happen in this space. I missed the old name Twitter. I mean, what a, what a great brand. It wasn't that great brand of ramp, but it was kind of fun while it happened. What are some of the techniques and teachings or courses you offer for your sales coaching and sales teams, et cetera, et cetera? So some of the techniques, I'm talking about this cadence of meetings and I can describe a couple of them. Certainly there's an annual review and plan meeting where you're going to look back and look forward and set goals.

Number two, there should be regular one-on-one goal setting meetings. It could be once a month, or it could be once a week if you have very short sales cycles. Check-ins are informal conversations, but they're deliberate, right? They're not left to happen randomly. They're planned and executed. Another type would be performance feedback, where I'm actually observing the salesperson do their job. I could be with them in the field. I could be listening to a recorded call or a Zoom call, and I want to give them specific feedback. And when it's necessary, do some practice training, some rehearsal, so they can get better next time. And then the last two are sales meetings, which are done with a group. That's probably something that happens once a week. The agenda should be really uplifting.

It's not a sales beating. It's a sales meeting. Everybody contributes. Pete, it sounds like you've been in some of those. It's not a sales beating. It's a sales beating. I've been in those sales beatings. We were going Gary Glenn Ross earlier. That's right. Yeah. You know, I rewatched that film the other day.

Isn't it so great? It is unbelievable. And then finally, the last thing are sales huddles, which would be a shorter duration, you know, 15 minutes maybe and so forth. And so that cluster meetings, when they're done effectively on a shorter duration, 15 minutes maybe, and so forth. And so that cluster of meetings, when they're done effectively on a regular basis, are going to produce success for a sales team. Now, in the CEO world, like coaching professional services, there's still a cadence. It's the same principle.

It's just somewhat different types of meetings. So you sit down with them, and how can people onboard with you? Do they reach out to you? Do they have a – on your website, do you have a thing that they can talk to you on? Yes. We have a process where we first of all, talk for 20 minutes of some initial discovery and it feels like a potential fit. Then we'll have the client take the disk assessment and we'll do a strategic business review. It takes about an hour. And usually by that time, they're in a real good position to say, oh, you know, this feels right. Let's move ahead or not.

Maybe they want to wait. And then typically we'll meet with them once a week to continually clarify the vision, prioritize goals, you know, brainstorm and execute. And then sometimes along the way, there's some group training or a focus in a particular area. But business coaches are not consultants. They're coaches. So I don't tell you how to run your dental practice, but I work with you to figure out how to improve it. There's a gentleman that just enlisted with me yesterday, and he runs a great plumbing business in the area. And before the pandemic, he was doing great. He had 12 employees.

And now after the pandemic, he's got three. He's 63 years old. He doesn't want to retire. But he's not very happy about looking back on his busier days. So he's super excited to get started, and he'll be doing the DISC profile. We'll start off with having him really envision what the ideal future looks like in 5 and 10 years. And most people don't do that very often, but that supplies the power for change. Yeah, most definitely.

I mean, change is everything that can make all the difference in the world there. What have we talked about that you do over there and how you do it? Maybe give a little bit. It would help to give kind of a composite case study, if you will. Yeah. And you folks listening, you may recognize that you know somebody who kind of sounds like this. So let's imagine a dental practice. It's called Crown Point Dental.

And the dentist is named Dennis. And if you know anything about dentistry, it won't surprise you to learn that his wife is the office manager, Denise. And it started off as a family-run business. It's grown quite a bit bit they've got 30 employees now you know multiple hygienists the three dentists he's paying for state-of-the-art equipment and Dennis is normally a pretty easygoing guy but he feels buried and he feels guilty guilty partly because of how hard his wife Denise is working she's stressed from managing you know more than she ever thought she would.

And in particular, their pain points are that there's sort of a lack of leadership structure. One of their star performing hygienists is threatening to leave due to burnout. Insurance reimbursements are slow. And payroll is a real problem for her as well. So through the coaching process, they clarified their vision and they did the disc assessments to improve communication. Dennis started carving out time to do strategic planning. They redefined their roles and did some delegation, put better financial systems in place. And so after about a year, less stress, more time off, better morale, and pretty happy with the whole process.

Wow. It's interesting how delegation is a real important factor in that as well, right? Yeah. And it's a founder's trap. Founder's trap. I love that. Founder's trap that you're successful because you're a great technician and you do everything and you make sure everything's perfect, but you can't keep that up forever. And a lot of people, I confess sometimes me too, I think nobody can do it better than me. So why would I delegate it? But it's super important to not only delegate, but empower your people to be successful. I'm curious on your insight, Chris, on, I mean, are you a good delegator are you you've

grown your business so well you must be i mean yeah but i'm also bad i mean my history is bad at it i've i think i hopefully have learned a few things but still i mean even to this day there's times where i look at something you know this needs to go to this needs to go to a va i need to quit doing this and and, and I'm pretty good at constantly asking myself, is this something I should be delegating? And, and also trying to see the big picture. So I think I am at this point, I maybe 20, 30 years ago, maybe I wasn't as good or 10 years ago, I'm getting better, but you know, it's, it's still that there's something about the human touch of stuff. There's a lot of stuff I like to interact with and touch.

There's, you know, sometimes people will be like, are we talking to you? Are we talking to a VA or who are we talking to on this email? Or, you know, some sort of form of communication. Initially, you know, there's marketing that the VAs do. But usually when I'm talking to clients or prospective clients I usually want to have that personal thing there and they're kind of always surprised I'm talking to you and I'm like yeah but that's because it's important to me and a customer is important to me and I kind of come from that old Tom Peters you

know something of excellence what is it so good excellence era and and that's kind of the beginning of building a relationship to me it's it's like an important factor but for the most part i try and look at a lot of different things and be like how can things be handled but i think i'm always going to have there's certain things i want to have close to the vest you know i want to have customers to be able to talk to me i want to have you know i don't want to feel like that they can't get to me or be in it i didn't't mind usually when calls came to the office and they want to talk to the boss, the president, because something's wrong. And I didn't mind fixing their problems. And usually right away they get the attitude that, yeah, delegation is hard for a lot of self-employed people.

It just is. And then you have to do it effectively i mean one of the things that i've learned about my own leadership style is that i will i will sometimes over delegate but not provide clear instructions or support for how to get the job done no because i think oh we hire good people you know the process figure this out they'll be able to they'll be a psychically know what i'm want them to do yeah we're all guilty of that exactly seen that movie but yeah any final thoughts that he's out about the book and the service you offer before we go i am working on my next book which is called you know sales is not a dirty word and this is for for healthcare practitioners and professional services,

lawyers, accountants, whatever people who, as we talked about at the opening, for whatever reason, they're ambivalent about sales or they're ashamed of it. But that is the way, in fact, that they provide their services to their clients. So we help people get out of their own way by being really clear about what their values are and aligning their behavior with those values. So I think we were talking about earlier, we like to say that the first sale you make is to yourself. I have to believe what I'm saying. So I better say the things that I believe. And then the second sale in our business is when our client grasps that

vision of the future that he or she wants and says, yes, I'm compelled to take steps. So in our world, those are kind of the two things that happen. So as we go out, give people a pitch. Tell us how they can onboard you, what websites they can go to, et cetera, et cetera. Sure. So my email is mhawk, H-A-W-K, at focalpointcoaching.com. You can find me on LinkedIn under Matt Hawk, Ph.D. My last book is on Amazon.

And my website is matthawk, with two Ts, dot focalpointcoaching.com. It's been fun to have you on the show and very insightful. And sales is everything. You know, we're always selling to each other. So it's fun to have you on the show and very insightful and sales is everything. You know, we're always selling to each other, so it's good to learn these things. And the great thing about sales, too, is once you learn how to be a good salesman, it's a trade that you can use in anything, you know, whether you're trying to convince your wife to marry you or whether you're trying to convince, you know, someone to buy something or selling maybe your car or someone else's car or dealership's car.

And yeah, I mean, there's a lot of great stuff that you can do there. It's such a great skill to learn. And then once you have it, you can utilize it so many different ways, starting your own company, sales, you know, all that good stuff. So thank you very much for coming to the show. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Chris. Thanks, Matt. And thanks for joining us for tuning in.

Go to Goodreads.com, Fortune's, Chris Foss,, all those crazy places on the internet, and you can see us. Or to Matt's book, where refined books are sold, Next Level Sales Coaching, How to Build a Sales Team that Stays, Sells, and Succeeds, out July 2, 2020. You know, I mean, that's really important, because if you have great salespeople and they leave, it can be really painful.

I mean, most of my top guys were guys that could never have afforded to leave because they made so much money from me and them and anytime one of them left oh they were almost irreplaceable and then they almost cost you the farm sometimes yeah the top guys are really good but yeah anyway guys thanks for tuning in be good to each other stay safe we'll see you next time thanks chris