The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Ordinary People, Extraordinary Lives: A Path to Reconciliation in Our Divided Times by Gregory J. Leeson

Episode Date: December 21, 2024

Ordinary People, Extraordinary Lives: A Path to Reconciliation in Our Divided Times by Gregory J. Leeson Amazon.com Gregoryleesonbooks.com In his multi-layered work Ordinary People, Extraordinary Lives, Gregory J. Leeson delves deeply into the pervasive issue of societal divisiveness and asks how to get past it. To explore the roots of this division and find solutions, he embarked on an extensive 13-month, 26,403-mile road trip across North America. In visiting 53 cities in 39 states and eight provinces, Leeson delivered 19 speeches, conversed with nearly 1,000 people, and conducted in-depth interviews with 71 participants using a protocol developed by Dr. Dan P. McAdams, a pioneer in narrative psychology from Northwestern University. The culmination of this remarkable odyssey is a collection of 66 succinct life stories, each potentially resonant with the reader’s own experiences, offering a window into the shared human condition. The book also features 52 viewpoints on the present state and future trajectory of the United States. In the chapter “What Would You Do,” Leeson presents thought-provoking questions, including a universal one, in a unique way that compels introspective responses. Central to Leeson’s thesis is the assertion that despite our apparent differences, our fundamental similarities bind us together, fostering deeper connections with others. For those who embrace the opportunity to employ McAdams’ interview protocol, the journey promises a transformative and cathartic experience, enriching an understanding of oneself and others.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the big show. I think we just got the batter at half. The Iron Lady there. So she did her part, and here, we. I think we just got the batter at half. The Iron Lady there.

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Fortress Christmas LinkedIn.com Fortress Christmas Christmas one on the tick tockity. Oh, it's crazy place in the internet We have an amazing young man on the show with us today. We're talking about his newest book Gregory J Leeson joins us his book is entitled ordinary people extraordinary lives a path to reconciliation in our own divided times Ordinary People, Extraordinary Lives, A Path to Reconciliation in Our Own Divided Times. Boy, do we sure need some help. It came out September 30th, 2024, and we'll be getting his insights as well. He hails from the picturesque shores of Halifax, Nova Scotia. He has a bachelor's degree in economics from the university of western ontario and after a brief yet intense foreign investment banking in toronto he made a bold leap to the united states come to

the big city there as it were trading bond futures at the chicago board of trade or otherwise known as the cbot the cvo is that what it's known as i don't know that's it yeah i remember my day training stuff. Years later, following a life setback, he became a self-taught expert in various software engineer language and co-founded Chenova Software, crafting innovative systems for renowned companies such as Sears Roebuck, Quaker Oats, and Abbott Laboratories. His eclectic career culminated with retirement in 2022 as a senior R&D manager at Pfizer. And now we have him here with his new book. Welcome to the show. How are you, sir? I'm great, Chris. Good to be with you today.

Good to have you as well. This is exciting. New books are always wonderful. They bring forth all sorts of smartness. Give us any dot coms. Where do you want people to find you on the interwebs? So it's GregoryLeasonBooks.com and Leason is L2E's S-O-N. So give us a 30,000 overview. What's inside this new book? So the new book, you know, people ask me, where did this come from? And I thought it started in 2015, but actually it probably started as far back as grade four, an interesting year of my life. I grew up in a normal family, very stable, but very, very stereotypically British. And there was tremendous support or tremendous stability, but not a lot of support and so forth. And grade four, things started happening, and I started having some seizures.

And my teacher told my parents that I was living in my own world, and I stopped reading fiction. And that was the big thing, Chris. And I started reading biographies. And probably between grade four and grade 10, or grade 11 or so, I read probably more biographies than most people might read in a lifetime. That's when it kind of started, in a way, the biography part. Yeah, I remember falling in love with biographies of war heroes. Like I was reading a lot of Eisenhower, MacArthur, and different things. I was just involved with those when I was in like fourth grade.

I don't know why. Yeah, fourth grade. For me, it was all sports. I read all athletes and coaches, and they were the best teachers I could ever have. And then that's when the idea of being interested in other people's lives started. And then in 2015, on the master ceremony at my 40th high school reunion back in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and since I was kind of running the show, I tried to make sure I talked to as many people as I could, and I heard some great, great stories. Some of them I knew, like one of my friends who was my roommate in college,

he went on to become head coach of the Pittsburgh Penguins in the NHL. You know, I was a guy there who was deputy commissioner number two in command of the RCMP. So there's some great stories. I thought, wow, I wonder if anybody's ever written a book about people, just ordinary people, and so forth. And I thought, yeah, but that's not for you, Greg, you're a math guy, you don't know anything about letters. So I kind of dismissed the whole idea, right? Then in 2019, I'm divorced, and I'm on a date with this woman, and she's a bit of a bibliophile, and we're talking, and she's into motivational books and philosophy and that as i'm

talking she stops me mid-sentence and she says greg have you ever thought of writing a book i said no one's ever asked me that one before i said but you know i have one book in me but it's not about me it's about everyone else and she said go for it i never saw her again but i talked to a friend of mine the next week. And I said, listen, I got this idea. And my friend just happened to be from India. I had an incredible story of how he made his way from India to the University of Buffalo to get his PhD and was working at Pfizer as a chemist. And he said, Greg, go for it.

And then, of course, COVID set in. And that kind of put everything on hold until retirement in October of 21. And that's when it all started for it. And then of course, COVID set in and that kind of put everything on hold until retirement in October of 21. And that's when it all started for real. Oh, wow. And so what was the proponent that led you to the book finally, where you're like, I'm doing a book on this? What was the component for that? Yeah. So it was the idea of ordinary people and their lives. And over COVID, of course, I was working at home for 19 months for Pfizer, unable to go in the office. It was difficult. And so I did some reading and two of the books I read,

one was by a guy by the name of Bruce Feeler, Life is in the Transitions. And Bruce spent two years going to all 50 states interviewing people about how they get through difficult times in their life, right? And in his book, he introduced me to a guy by the name of Dan McAdams, Harvard PhD, Northwestern University professor, lives only about 25 or works only about 25 miles away from where I live. And McAdams had this great book called The Stories We Live By. He is one of the world's pioneers in narrative psychology. And his whole thing is about storytelling, and so forth. And he wrote this book. And in this book, he lives a protocol, but 22 questions that he and his graduate students have been using for decades to get people's

stories. And he said, Here it is, use it. So I contacted him and get his permission to use his protocol. And from Bruce, I took the idea of travel. So after I retired in October of 21, and May 1st, 2022, the day I turned 65, I rented my home, hit the road, and I was on the road for exactly one year, one month, one week, and one day, 26,403 miles, 53 cities, 39 states, 8 provinces in Canada, finding people to interview them about their life. Where do you get the energy for this?

Is there a coffee you're drinking or something? Actually, I don't drink coffee. No, I've always been a high energy guy. This is something I want to do in my life. I'll have what he's having, waiter. Yeah, I remember that scene. I mean, that's a lot of work. So when you set out with this vision

to accomplish this, did you know that it was going to end up the way you wanted, or were you taking a bit of a risk? I was taking a bit of a risk. Some people thought I was kind of nuts, you know that it was going to end up the way you wanted, or were you taking a bit of a risk? I was taking a bit of a risk. Some people thought I was kind of nuts, you know. But here's the thing, Chris, and this is the way I am. I rented my home for 13 months, so I had absolutely no backdrop.

I had to do it. Burn the ships behind you. Yep. That's exactly what Cortez did, I think. And that's exactly what I did. And I did that on purpose because I did not want to leave myself an excuse. So there I was. So I did four journeys. I did an Eastern journey, Western journey, Southern journey, a Great Plains journey.

Did you go by RV or car? Or how did you? Car, Airbnbs, Airbnbs everywhere. Yep. I lived in an Airbnb in my car. And usually stayed about five nights in each city. And on to the next one, on to the next one, on to the next one. I mean, you would have gotten some better stories if you had hitchhiked.

You'd probably have been buried on the road somewhere. I did a lot of that when I was a kid. Yeah. We had FBI Frank, I forget his last name, on the show about a book about the FBI wrote Truck Killers. Kind of interesting. But so you held, did you hold like symposiums or little conferences that you were inviting people to? Yeah. So what I did, I started out interviewing a few people that I knew and I had a website up and running where I posted those stories, the many biographies that I wrote for those four or five people. So I had a track record of some sort. And I met

people however I could I met them in the street. I gave I did give 19 speeches on my journeys, mostly to Rotary clubs, great, great organization. Yeah, part of the country if you Yep, yep, exactly. So I give 19 speeches. I met people that way. I met people through the Airbnbs. I got referrals. I just had a few people I knew in Illinois and Nova Scotia, not many. Most were perfect strangers, and I met them in so many different ways, Chris. And what were you asking them? What were you hoping to accomplish?

So I was basically using Dan McAdams' 22 questions, which incidentally, I met Dan at Northwestern in February for lunch. And he remarkably has given me permission to publish his protocol in my book. It's Appendix A. And I jokingly tell people, if you're thinking of buying the book, don't buy it for anything I wrote, buy it for Appendix A. It is, I'm being serious. This will get yours too. It's a two for one. Yeah, it's a two for one. But it is really remarkable. I mean, so I interviewed 71 people, and McAdams wrote this in his book.

And I didn't really believe it, but I experienced it. Of the 71 people that I interviewed, mostly perfect strangers, Chris, 30 of them broke down crying during the interview. This is not Mickey Mouse stuff. And it's not mine. It's McAdams. We want people to buy the books. We can't tease out too much. Was the reason they were crying because someone was finally listening to them? That was part of it. That was absolutely part of it. But I think it's just dealing with, I mean, the questions got very, very deep, right?

And as people started talking about these things, and, you know, I'm not a very big guy, so I'm not intimidating in any way whatsoever, Chris. And I think people opened up to me easily. And I was just there to listen. Remember, I'm dispassionate. I have no stake in the game, if will for most of these people and they felt free talking to a stranger You know, I mean that's kind of one of the problems I think we've discussed it ad nauseum on the show is you know the one of the things that divide us We don't listen to each other. We don't really listen

Yeah, uh-huh Here's what I have to say. Yeah, exactly. You uh-huh. And here's what I have to say. You're spending all the time setting up what you have to say. If I could, let me just read you one sentence from McAdams on the back of my book. There it is. One sentence, and it kind of sums it up. He says, people find

common ground through storytelling. Stories are the owner's manual to life. Let alone hate. Another person wants you to come and know their story. I mean, I think that says it all. In a way. Can you cut that again? Because I think it dropped a little bit on the audio.

Oh, okay. Sure. Dan McAdams. People find common ground through storytelling, Leeson shows us, for it is nearly impossible to dismiss, let alone hate, another person once you have come to know their story. Never judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes or something like that. And so I set out with the assumption that we kind of live in a divided world.

And so in my book, I have the 71 people I interviewed. There are 66 mini stories, as I call it, mini biographies, very many biographies in the book, but 550 words each, just to capture an essence of someone's life. But I also have 52 anonymous opinions from people all over the United States about where we are as a country, how divided we are, and where we are headed. And those are pretty fascinating things. So whatever they said is what I wrote. And then you're just taking anybody from any walk of life.

You're not trying to interview scholars or people that maybe, they're just the average Joe or Jane. No, I think I had six or seven academics. Okay. I mean, PhD type people, maybe eight. So I did have some, but I had a little bit of everything. And I had, you know, a few people, public figures, head coach in the NHL. I interviewed Lynette Grable, who ran against Liz Cheney in Wyoming as a Democratic candidate. Liz, she has, she is nationally known.

I met her, you know. So I got a few, Emmy Award winner out of Manchester, New Hampshire. So I had a few people who had public names, but most people, just random, ordinary people. You know, we say that life or the stories of the owner's manual is the life. And the great thing about people's stories is how we learn. I mean, before books and movies and television it was the way we learned we told stories around the camp for each other as cavemen there was a you know i there was always a historical griot that kept a the history of

the tribe in his brain yep that's exactly right i don't know what happened if that he ever got eaten by a lion but like hey protect that griot guy man we can't he's the one guy with all the info but you know he would pass it on down to the next griot and all that stuff and so it's interesting how we you know but then again the stories we have the one thing the one quote for me is the one thing man can always learn from his history is that man never learns from his history. Everybody go round and round. So welcome to, welcome to 2025. Yeah.

Whatever that means. But so do you want to give us a, you want to tease out? I mean, like I said, people need to buy the book and we don't want to give away too much, but do you want to tease out maybe some of the consensus you found or maybe some things that surprised you that maybe you didn't expect coming when you're

talking to people? I know it's interesting. I was asked that question near the end of my journeys from some of the speeches I gave. What did you learn from this, Greg, and that? And what I can say is, I think I experienced what I was kind of expecting. We all have great stories. Yeah, I did, Chris. We all have great stories. Yeah, I did, Chris. We all have great stories. And these great stories are what we might just call ordinary life. Because we all live, nobody escapes, you know, trials and tribulations.

We all have to go through that. And everyone has gone through that. People have achieved, but they've also lost and so forth. And so the idea is, you know, there's 66 stories there. And if you read 66 stories, you're going to say, Hey, wait a minute, I know that guy, or I know that gal. Others, maybe not so much. Of course, that's to be expected. But you're going to see yourself in the book. And, and, yeah, and I think what kind of surprised me a little bit, perhaps, is, you know, when my chemist talked about people emoting and so forth, I didn't really know if I would

experience that because he's in a clinical environment with graduate students and they know what they're getting into. I'm always just a random guy off the street. And yet, that experience, that happened with me. So I was a little surprised by that, I must admit. But people are great and they all have a story to tell and some of the stories you know people ask me greg do you have a favorite story and of course the plainly correct answer is no of course not but i always think about this one guy

the youngest guy i interviewed in manchester new hampshire big guy burly guy blue collar and so forth but what he had to overcome in life born into a family with alcoholic mother drug addicted father who had an older son who one day one day decided he had no more use for his father killed him family services came and got dan and his brother because she was unfit they went to to a foster home, and it got worse. He was in grade four at the time, reading at a grade one level. And after a few years in this foster home, these two angels came along, Chris. An older couple adopted Dan and his brother, grade four. By the time grade four was over, he had gone from reading from grade one level to grade six level.

They moved on to Florida. This guy was a 4.0 student. He's a star athlete. He got a full ride at Florida University, and he was a classical pianist. Wow. This write-off, right, at age 10, turned out to be an amazing person. And he turned down the scholarship at university because what he really wanted was to earn income as quickly as he could so he could get married and have a family and have a completely different life than what he grew up with.

I learned four days ago, he's engaged. Just an amazing story of what this guy overcame. And it's one of many stories kind of like that. That's just amazing. You know, we can't throw people away. The thing we love about stories and being the owner's manual to life is, you know, we all seem to go through different tribulations and maybe trials and, of course, at different stages in our life. Yeah, the great thing about stories and we talked about this alone on the show is you know the The one the one thing you feel when you're under attack or when their life is being mean to you

Are you feeling kind of victimized or you know? you're you're going through trials and tribulations that usually are kind of designed to stretch you and Enable your ability to survive, is you feel very alone. So the great thing about people's stories, the books they write, things we share with each other, is you never know who they're going to impact, number one. And number two, they help people understand that, hey, I'm not alone.

Bob had my issue, and here's how Bob resolved it. Now that I've got Bob's blueprint. You know, I lost a hundred pounds one time because Penn Jillette found a guy who helped him lose a hundred pounds. And then he put a book out called Presto and I read the book and his stories and his re his re resetting of his belief systems about food and eating and nutrition and help me use the same techniques and rules that he created and find my way through the darkness of weight loss.

And the thing is, you never know who your story is going to touch. I've talked about this before, but I remember being deep in editing in mind and I was ready to throw it out the window. I mean, I was really burnt out writing a book in three months i mean i rammed it hard but you know a lot of them were stories i have been telling you for years of my journeys of life but still just just constantly rehashing them and hammering them and you know doing the design work on them so they seem you know they were more interesting maybe and played better but and plus trying to remember all the details because it's been yeah yeah that was the same part yeah you know my favorite word about what you're talking about is cascades it cascades

chris yeah you know it it does and you know when i'm giving speeches to the rotary clubs or whatever they do great work i said you will never see the result of your work because it cascades and so forth. And let's take it to heart, read some of the stories, but even maybe more importantly, they look at that protocol in Appendix A and they say, you know what? Maybe I should go through this or maybe I should even write my own life story by using this as a template to get it going and so forth. And that's the way it will cascade. Yeah. And you never know who you're going to touch. I mean, we talked about authors on the show where they had somebody come up to them at a book signing and say, I was in prison

and we had a little group of women who were prisoners and we used your book series to help learn to grow and be better and try and make it so we don't ever recidivize back to here and you know and she had no idea that her books were being utilized this way and you know we just never know i mean i've told story i've told stories about the pain that i went through with my dog dying all of a sudden on me and i thought it was selfish and then all of a sudden on me, and I thought I was selfish. And then all of a sudden, you know, people, years, it's been since 2013 or 14 years, people come up to me and go, your story about your dog, blah, blah, blah, and the work that you did with your dogs over the decade, last decade, I guess now it's been, huh, you know, motivated me this way.

And I'm like, God, you still remember that? Wow. That had that much of an impact on you. That's the beauty of sharing with each other. You never know. Yeah. You know, it's funny. You mentioned inmate. I actually met an inmate. I didn't interview him. He didn't agree. Unfortunately, he was in prison in New Mexico for murder. No less. He was exonerated. And I met him on Hayden Ashbury in San Francisco with the Gibson guitar. And, you know, that's why I never got a chance to interview him, unfortunately, but I'm sure he had a great story. Yeah.

I mean, and it's interesting. You can learn stuff from everybody. I mean, that's why I do the podcast, because I love talking to people. Everyone's got a different journey. I always joke that maybe I'm just sick of me and my journey. I like to hear other people's journeys because i'm tired of playing i like other people's i'm like yeah this was really cool i'm gonna i think i'm gonna do that part but you know and it's and i think it's interesting that when we kind of sit down

with each other and you know the example you've shown listen to each other realize that we're multifaceted human beings. Some of us are. There's some people on Twitter that I won't say. Maybe. But, you know, I mean, George Carlin did have a saying, you think how dumb the average person is. But even dumb people have stories. Because if dumb people didn't have stories, I wouldn't have me as the host of a podcast because we need somebody running the mic.

Yeah. You're a storyteller. Yeah, and I try. You are. What's great is if you're dumb, you have a lot of great stories. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Because you make a lot of poor decisions, which explains most of my life, I suppose. Yeah. One of the things I wrote in my book is that, you know, you kind of alluded to it earlier, is, you know, I wrote, lives impact lives, and it's so true. And you never know how it's going to happen. Lives impact lives. Lives impact lives. I'm going to do that later today when I try and get that 20 bucks on my friend knows me.

There might be some impact. No, I'm just teasing. Setting up jokes, people. Don't write me and don't resort to violence ever. What have we teased out about your book that maybe we need to tease out to get people to pick up? Sorry, what was that? What? What more haven't we teased out?

Is there anything more we can touch on? So there is an appendix A as well. There is one website to write a little testimony and so forth. Amy's story is quite incredible. She had no choice. The judge gave her no choice. She walked away from her children, and she could not tell that story for years. I was the first person she ever told the story to, and she wrote this

incredible testimony, which is in Appendix A. If you read that testimony, you're going to be floored at the impact that that interview that McAdams put together had on her life. Another thing I suppose is, and a little bit who I saw, who I met, and some of the interesting things like happened. St. Louis, for example. So I'm in St. Louis. It's the last city on my Western journey. And I go, of course, to see the Great Arch,

you know, the Arch of St. Louis and so forth. And I walk in and it's a federal federal park run by the Rangers and so forth. And as I'm going through security, the Ranger's doing one of these, you know. Come here, Greg. So I lean up close, and he says, Sir, zip up your fly. Apparently, I've been walking around St. Louis, and I'm thinking to myself, Chris, so this is what retirement's going to look like, right? So there were these funny instances like this that happened from time

to time and other things that didn't make it into the book, obviously, that the experiences that I had, things that I saw, I got to see the entire continent. I drove the entire continent and the scenery from the Rockies to the desert to the East Coast, the beautiful hills of Pennsylvania and so forth, the South. I got to see the entire continent, Chris, and that was pretty cool too. So I recite that a little bit in the book also. That sounds exciting. In your website that you have, is there any services that you offer? Do you do any coaching or consulting or anything like that?

So I do have a contact form, and if anybody's interested in booking me to give a speech, obviously, or interview me, like you are as well, or just provide feedback, obviously, as well as is there. So I'm available for that. Now, I am hitting the road. I'm off to Portugal in a few days to spend Christmas with my daughter and New Year's. And when I get back on January 15th, I hit the road again, Chris. I'm going on three road trips, but this is going to be very, very quick. My goal is to, I've got 10 speeches lined up, but I'm also going to hand deliver a book to all the people I interviewed all over. I signed it. That is my... So I'll be on the road from January 15th

to basically the end of July for the most part. Oh, wow. That should be wild. You need like one of those camper vans you drive around where people can... Yeah, I know. I was thinking about building one of those back in the day. Was that right?

Yeah, we were going to go interview people in small towns at Greasy Spoons and just find out why... Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, the cities that the the freeways left behind basically and and just kind of travel them and just have an interview ahead of a pull out a podcast thing that we could pull out and record and you know because i i find people's stories interesting their journeys yeah so how did you know the journey was great yeah have you ever heard the book blue highways i don't do highways william least half moon was his pen name he did

exactly what you said he he drove many years ago to all the back roads he got off the highways and talked to people in the diners everything else interesting book haven't read it but yeah blue highways it's called it's got a blue tree on it and a road? Maybe. Journey into America. This might be it. Oh, you got it, yeah. William Least Half Moon is his pen name. Least Heap Moon?

That can be more obvious. But, yeah, I mean, that's, you know, I wanted to go sit. I love greasy spoon diners. I love those old. Oh, yeah Yeah, I love them and All town. Yeah small town and when I was it when I was in my 18 to 20s There was a company I work for him I had to drive around some of the back roads of Utah and back cities and service trucking companies and

Industry and different things and and so yeah stopping there's a romantic thing to stopping in some of those old cities and then some of those people their their perspective on life is different it's almost like the real america but not i get it's their america but that's what's it that that's their america i mean that's's, that's what makes them view this country in their way. And, you know, I mean, the other, the other thing that interests me is why have you, why didn't you leave? Why did you stay here? Why do you make the choice to stay every day? You know, I run, I run a huge dating group and we cover the state of Utah and the dating group, we hold like meetups and stuff. We have some people that are in some of these smaller cities that they're really small cities and if you get divorced or if you're trying to you know

date more than one or two people everyone knows your business and you pretty much run out of people fairly quickly i suppose like utah that you know is very high marriage low single state you know if you go to california southern, the weirdos are the people who are married, you know, they're the freak zones. I'm just teasing people, but there, you know, you find more singles than you do married people. But, you know, asking people like, why do you stay here? It's probably hard to find a new spouse here. It's probably hard to date anybody new here, you know, but what is it about this? And it's home, I guess. Yeah, it's home. It's what hard to date anybody new here. But what is it about this? It's home, I guess. Yeah, it's home.

It's what they know. The people are different than you come up to a big city where everything's usually hustle, bustle, and people are a little bit more selfish in themselves. Yeah, I don't know. I'll have to check out that book, though, because I wanted to do it. And I was actually, we used to do a lot of events before COVID. You know, we'd drive to CES and do all this personal interviews one-on-one. So we were making a rig for that. So we had a remote van.

But then I like taking my dogs with me instead of sheltering them. And so I wanted to, you know, kill all those birds with one stone, where we'd take two weeks driving out to, say, see a show or South by Southwest in Texas. And then we'd do these interviews along the way, and then I'd just nap, and the dogs are with me, and the dogs would stay in a kennel or wherever I'm at. But at night, they'd be able to stay with me. And so it's just kind of like a roaming sort of thing. And then the great thing about it would be that I could do it at my own pace.

I'm going to take two weeks and drive to Texas and just fuck around. And I'm still enthralled by the idea, but I don't know. I don't know. It's much easier to get people on remote cameras now. So we got that. Yeah. My road trips were, I think,

83, 82, 56, and 41 days or something like this on the road. Yeah. Yeah. And I get to meet great people everywhere. Didn't matter whether it was in California or Wyoming or whatever, Alabama, didn't matter.

They're just great people, Chris, from all stripes of life. You know, that really brings a good topic to what we're talking about in the show. The one thing I remember, the great insult comic from the 30s on, 50s, 60s, and I always forget his name, but he was always a little sharp. And he would tell jokes that were colored and, you know, sometimes borderline on the racism or, you know, profile stuff. I can't remember his name off the top of my head. People know who I'm talking about, the insult he's always on johnny carson and stuff but you know he said you can say stuff to people and as long as they know that it's you know it's from the heart and you care about right and they can sense that in how you talk to them. And I've tried to perfect that. And I can literally approach almost anyone anywhere and get them to smile or have a conversation with them.

And somehow I'm able to deliver that. Somehow I've developed that where I'm able to deliver that, where they go, you know, he's not being a troll. He's not being an asshole. He's being really funny. And it's kind of it's it's a really hard balance to do it in a funny way but still you know be like hey you know i'm with you we're not you know i'm not bashing you we're yeah yeah you know i remember there was a i think i pushed

a little too far but i was at the gym several months ago and this guy, there was a ton of people there and this guy was walking towards me and I, I started, I noticed him ogling his butt in the mirrors of the gym. And I mean this, normally you see the women doing stuff like that. Yeah. Right. I doing it.

And he just got done working out and I don't know. He wanted to see, I don't know how things were doing for what he already lifted. I guess. And, and then he, he was, I guess. But he was just like, he really spent too much time, at least in my purview, Googling his butt. And then he turned and he started walking towards me and I was going the other way and I said, hey man, don't worry about it. Your butt looks just fine. It's not like the coolest thing to say to another gym in the gym probably don't want to

say that in the locker room but i was i was kind of like just feeling i wonder if i can get away with this shit what was his reaction he laughed he laughed he totally got it and i was gonna be that message of yeah amen we're just yeah i think people can pick that up and other people and so forth and i say you know i'm not an opposing fellow and i think people can pick that up and other people and so forth. And I say, you know, I'm not an opposing fellow. And I think people felt comfortable that way. And when I started asking the questions and I opened up a little bit about myself as well. And I think it helped for them. Maybe early.

Well, you had your fly open. I had my fly open in St. Louis. Yeah, that's true. That's definitely opening up. Definitely opening up. Yeah, I get it. Good one. And I think that kind of helps and so forth to people drop that guard a bit.

But that willingness to listen, do you think that was a big? Because no one really wants to listen to each other anymore, especially on social media. Yeah. I've heard a lot of people say it. Listen, I've had several people say to me, Greg, when's our next session? Oh, yeah. A few people have said that. I'm not a trained psychologist in any way whatsoever, of course, but I just listen. And I think you're right.

We go through life and people don't necessarily really truly listen to what it is you have to say. When you find someone who is actually listening to you and wants to learn about who you are, that was it. There are some people who are a little more clinical than others. Obviously, everybody's an individual. But for the most part, Chris, people really got into it. Oh, that's just amazing. Absolutely. There are a lot of things we can do, folks, when we just actually sit, shut up, and listen

to people. And that's just really it. And that way, you're going to get the best stories. You're going to get to understand them. You're probably going to understand their journey, which is something that shapes them as well, right? Yes, absolutely. It's all about the journey. Yep.

You got that right. That was the hardest thing that I had when I was growing up because I was ADHD, probably very ADHD and I believed in perfection and I believe that everything I was striving for was to eventually be perfect and to get things right and there was no element for failure and and so when I would fail when I'd have issues people would always say that to me they go it, it's about the journey, not the destination, Chris. Calm down. And it would make me so angry. I'm so upset because it sounded like a cop-out to me. That, oh, it's about the journey.

It's not about the goal. Oh, you didn't run the marathon? It's about the journey. It's not that you didn't finish the marathon. And you're just like, you know, F you. I wanted to finish the marathon or you didn't finish the marathon and you you're just like you know f you i wanted to finish the marathon but then you start you know you go through life and you realize what's that famous line that's in pink floyd's thing that always resonates with me since the first time i heard it no one told you when to run you missed the starting gun

and a lot of people go through life and they don't look around you know i remember going driving down the highway with my buddy and his pickup truck wearing teenagers and i'd be like hey did you see that girl and she was way you know she's running her fingers through her hair she's a beautiful girl and there's so there's another girl over there and he's i don't know when did you see this and And I'm like, do you look outside of your purview of your thing? And then, of course, for me, learning to think outside the box, learning to try and see things outside of paradigms, challenging my paradigms. And it's funny to me how many people don't look around. And sometimes they don't wake up until their midlife crisis and go, where have I been these 20 years? Yeah, you know, so to some extent, I was a little bit like that as a younger man, Chris.

I didn't partake and so forth in some ways. And I think, you know, I went through an absolute crisis on my 39th birthday when I realized I was never, ever going to be a father. And, oh, yeah, I had a very great conversation with the infinite one that day and i i gave thanks for everything i had and not the good things i give thanks for everything on that day and you know about six years later there i am in china and this little girl was placed in my arms i'm a father after giving up on that dream and you know i second thing i want to do with the family is i want to show my daughter the world. And we have, are you familiar with couchsurfing? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've couchsurfed my daughter all over the world. She's been to about, oh, yeah, including Russia. We've been to about 22 countries. So this kind of came late in my life, this whole realization, Chris, to some extent. Even though I'd read those great books and they taught me a lot, I never really lived it until probably my mid-40s. And the world kind of started opening up after I adopted my daughter. Just wonderful things started happening in a lot of ways. And I'm at where I'm at now, you know, pursuing this dream that kind of got cut off the knees at age 27, when I got wiped out trading commodities, lost everything, lost all my investor money, the whole works, started a rock bottom to work my way back and got a chance to relive this dream

that I had for a long time, but just postponed. And here I am now doing what I really really love to do Wow you know it's interesting you know sometimes maybe things I don't believe that there's you know some puppet master this guy but everyone's welcome to believe what they want I suppose long as you don't hurt other people with it and shoving in other people's faces but you know I believe sometimes that when like sometimes I'll have creative ideas and I'll be like, you know I think this needs some maturity. I think it needs to I think it needs, you know, like a fine wine It needs a little bit more development. It's not ready now

Yeah, and and sometimes we just need more experiences, you know Yeah, kind of like you you went out and did the total griot story collector thing and created those experiences for yourself Yeah, yeah, love it Yeah, sometimes you just have to be patient and let it develop instead of trying to force it It's probably one of the biggest lessons I've learned in my life is you can't force things happen Sometimes you just have to let it happen Yeah, and sometimes you have to listen you have to take the time to listen and a lot of times when we're bashing our heads Up against something, you know, I'm trying to resolve something.

It's because I'm trying to force, you know, that square peg in that round hole. And I'm not listening to the fit that goes, hey, dummy, it's the square peg in the round hole. You know, you're the problem. And I'm just not going, it could be me, you know. And, you know, it's really good examples and lessons we're teaching here, folks, if you haven't learned to go back and listen to the show. So give us your final thoughts as we go out. Tell people where they can pick up the book and their dot coms,

where they can get to know you on the interwebs in the sky. Yep. So it's GregoryLeasonBooks.com. You can buy it right there, or you can look up my name, Gregory Leason. It'll come up, and it's on Amazon, so you can buy it through Amazon as well. So it's available there, Gregory Leeson. It'll come up and it's on Amazon, so you can buy through Amazon as well. So it's available there and hopefully it resonates, the ideas resonate. I know I've learned some things in life and I wrote them down. I wrote the two great rules to my daughter and gave it to her for Christmas in 22. I kind of learned from this process. And rule number two is for anything you do, there's no substitute for preparation. And rule number one is for anything you do, there's no substitute for preparation. And rule number one is for anything you do, have no fear.

I thought it was don't talk about Fight Club. About what? I thought it was don't talk about Fight Club was rule number one. No, no, no. No, have no fear. You know, I told her, I said, and that's kind of the two lessons I learned from this whole process. Those two things. And now we've learned so much more by having you on the show.

Thank you very much for coming on the show. We really appreciate it, man. Thank you, Chris. Great show. And Gregory, give us the.com one last time so that people have it. It's Gregory Leeson, L-E-E-S-O-N, books.com. And thanks for joining us. Go to goodreads.com,

4chesschrisfastlinkedin.com, 4chesschrisfast, chrisfast1, the tiktokity, and chrisfastfacebook.com. Be good to each other. Stay safe. Keep listening and learning.

We'll see you next time. Maybe I'll add that. Keep listening.