The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Outrageous Startup Growth: Uncovering the Secrets of User Psychology to Scale Your Success by Colin Hodge

Episode Date: July 24, 2026

Outrageous Startup Growth: Uncovering the Secrets of User Psychology to Scale Your Success by Colin Hodge https://www.amazon.com/dp/1394387334 Colinhodge.com ***NATIONAL BESTSELLER*** Create and market products that people can’t ignore using proven strategies from behavioral science. Are you ready to take your startup to the next level? Understanding user psychology is the difference between startups that go viral―and those that go splat. Outrageous Startup Growth is your playbook to adopt the mindset and strategies that drive explosive business success. ​Packed with real-world lessons, psychological insights, and actionable frameworks, this book is a must-read for entrepreneurs, product managers, and anyone looking to grow their business sustainably. ​ Colin Hodge, the co-founder of DOWN and creator of The Outrageous Growth Method, shares his hard-earned wisdom from scaling startups to over 100 million users, navigating high-stakes negotiations, and achieving successful exits. Hodge dives deep into the entrepreneurial mindset, teaching you how to embrace discomfort, build resilience, and learn from failures. With nearly two decades of experience in the tech industry spanning the globe, Hodge distills the essence of startup success into two key areas: cultivating a growth mindset and engineering user psychology for business growth. This book is your blueprint for: Harnessing behavioral science to optimize acquisition, retention, and user value Creating FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) to attract users and identify magic moments that lead to customer loyalty Designing experiences that nudge customer decisions toward success Unveiling your competitors’ hidden psychological tactics and applying them using robust principles. Whether it’s leveraging social proof, reducing friction, or crafting authentic branding, Outrageous Growth equips you with the tools to build a product that users love―and can’t stop talking about. About the author Colin Hodge is a startup founder and National Bestselling author who has led companies and growth teams responsible for over 100 million users. He currently is co-owner of DOWN, a top 10 dating app in the US with millions in annual revenue – built on the growth principles and lessons shared in this book. He achieved a successful exit for DOWN (then later reacquiring it) and 17Live, the top live-streaming video company in Asia (and still learned from plenty of failures along the way). While chief growth officer at 17Live, Colin led the data-driven initiatives in growth, global expansion, and marketing, then launched the platform in the United States as the first US CEO. Colin holds a BS in computer science from Cornell University and occasionally serves as a board member and keynote speaker for organizations around the world.

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Because you're about to go on a monster education role. roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hello, folks, Voss here from thecrisvoss Show.com. Ladies, gentlemen in the 90s season that makes official. Welcome to the oldest living broadcast that comes back from the original days of the early 2000s, where we are the only living podcast that still does one to two daily shows every day that we publish.

Be sure to support us and all that good stuff. Keep us around. We can't fill our legs anymore. We're getting that old. Go to Goodreith.com, Fortresschusch, Christchristch, Christfoss, YouTube.com, Fortchesterchusch, Chris Foss, and all those crazy places on the internet. Opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or the show. Some guests of advertising on the podcast, but it's not an endorsement or review of any kind. Today, we're an amazing young man on the show. We're going to be talking about his book and his insights and experience. It's called outrageous startup growth under uncovering the secrets of user psychology to scale your business by Colin Hodge. We're going to get into it. Him, find out all the deets, and how we can be outrageous too.

Durn it. I should have just done the show going, outrageous. This is outrageous. We're going to get into his outrageous book. I know. We're having fun with it. Colin is a startup founder and a national best-selling author who has led companies and growth teams responsible for over 100 million

users. He currently is co-owner of Down, a top-10 dating app in the U.S. with millions in annual revenue built on the growth principles and lessons shared in his book. He's achieved a successful exit for Down and then later reacquiring it. And 17 Live, the top live streaming video company in Asia and still learn from plenty of failures along the way. Well, Chief Growth Officer at 17 Live, he led the data-driven initiatives in growth global expansion

and marketing and then launched the platform in the United States as its first. CEO. Welcome the show. How are you, Colin? I'm doing very well. excited to be here with you, one of the OGs in the podcast space, and I hope to get into some outrageous topics today. Let's go outrageous today. We're just going to choose the name. We'll call it the outrageous show in honor of your book. So Colin, give us a dot com. Where can people find you up more about you on the interwebs? It's pretty simple. Just colinhodge.com. And you can find me there. find me on LinkedIn. I'm all over the place once you do a little search. We can stock you everywhere. So Colin, give us a 30,000 over you. What's this book about and what's inside?

I wrote this book for all the founders that I used to be when I was starting out. I was clueless, to be honest. And 20 years ago, I just knew that I wanted to be my own boss. So this is the book for everybody else, the people who already started something or those wannopreners who know in their heart that they're going to start a company eventually and they just need that nudge, they need that playbook to get out there. Why I did it this way though was because something really, really direct struck me when I was looking at my career so far and I realized that understanding your customer psychology, how they think, why they make the decisions they do, is the number one way to make your company successful for the long run.

The number one way, if you could build the best widget in the world, but if no one wants it or if it doesn't really solve a need, I've seen lots of startups that they're like, we have this product and I'm like, have you checked to see if there's a market fit for that? Because that seems really odd. And they're like, no. If you build it, they won't come. Yeah. Yeah.

I've had so many app makers say to me, oh, if we just spend all the money building the best app, we don't have to spend any money on marketing. You'll just succeed because people will see it's the best app. like yeah that's not how it works the better apps on instagram before instagram but somehow instagram won fact if you go on youtube it's the stupid shit that rules the game there's not the intellectual ruling youtube when it comes to content so you wrote this book now how how how did you know that you kind of had this entrepreneurial gift did you just kind of look at it as you were young and you said there's several lanes and choices i have here and maybe you don't play well with others like me

and you just, you have to be your own boss because no one else is going to work with you otherwise or something. I don't know. Certainly at this point, it has become much harder to have another boss. But I think when I was young, I was 14. I was tinkering with computers at home, building them, started to make software. Yeah. And I realized I just had a knack for all this stuff.

For some reason, computers just made sense to me. And I fixed them for other people. I started selling software. And eventually I realized this, there's something I can do here. It exercises the creative part of my brain because of a business building side of it. And it exercises the super logical part with solving computer problems or software problems. And so combining those two things helped me find my niche. And I eventually brought in user psychology.

But I really consider that mix of the creative side and the logical side too. Oh, 14 you started. That's great. My first company, yeah. Yeah. Came up with an awful name for it, but I paid with most, I paid with that money for most of my college. Put me through college and got me here. Yeah. Yeah. But your parents were happy. They're like, hey, we can save a bunch of college life. Super relieved, yes.

But then if you have other siblings, they're like, that means you got a double ours. No, I'm just kidding. Because you have extra money left over. And once you kind of get that bug, I became an entrepreneur 18. I just fell into it. And back then, no one was talking about entrepreneurship and knowing your own companies or whatever. Like, for me, I just got fired for McDonald's for having outrageous long hair that's in my book. And yeah, and so my dad's, what are you going to do now? Because you're going to go to college here in a year or two on a Pell Grant because we're poor.

But you're not sitting around my house at 18. Parents are a little different back in those days. Now they're like, yeah, you can stay out of your 50. Anyway. And so once you get that bug, man, and it's like a drug, and it's hard to go back to work for other people. It really is. And I realized what I was missing when I did join the corporate world out of college was that direct impact on people. It feels so good to own the product and own the interface with the customer and hear the real feedback.

and just start to integrate that feedback loop rather than just being like a cog in the wheel and having 10 layers to go through and owning this tiny piece of the whole project. So I crave that impact. Yeah, it's really a great drug. But the hardest part is being profitable and making it work, a lot of people fail. You talk in the book about the user psychology is the difference between startups that go viral or maybe unicorn status and those that go splat. Give us some insights as to what you tease out there in the book.

If you look at, honestly, you can name any successful startup, anything that comes to mind. But in the book, I walked through a few. Duolingo, the language learning app. Facebook, obviously, one of the original OGs in the space and got so much attention and really created this wealth of the internet era. And then Clubhouse, which was a live streaming app during COVID. And I break down how all of these, yeah, you're laughing because it died. I was a big clubhouse user.

I was huge in that thing. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And it was really fun. And I walked through in the book how they, one of the key elements, I break down user psychology for your users.

And one of the key elements is how to create FOMO if you're missing out. Clubhouse did it brilliantly during COVID. I, I break down all the elements. And I'll just, give you a few hints. It starts with urgency. You add a sprinkling of social proof. You add some feeling of exclusivity. So it can't be for everybody right away. And then some scarcity. So even if, even if you get access or you get an invite, there's still scarcity and you can't invite all

your friends right away. So they combine these elements and they created FOMO and it's a virtuous a cycle that just keeps building on itself. Now, they fell apart for other reasons. So building FOMO doesn't guarantee long-term success, but it really does help you get off the ground or optimize subscriptions, all that stuff. Yeah, it was such a great app. Literally, I would, we had phones that were running 24 hours a day listening to them, being in rooms. There were people that would stay up all night because it was during COVID, so no one was really working, at least for a a little while there. And I don't think they ever should be starting working with it. I went remote. But that's for another book. But it was a great app. It was wonderful.

God, talk about just the perfect timing. And it's so weird how, like I said, I remember back when Instagram hit, there were two other apps that were way better that did higher resolution that is a photographer like me. They did really good quality where Instagram came out and had this idiot. It was just a square that you can only do and portrait. And they really should be sued and probably put on death row for making portrait shots a thing instead of landscape. But whatever the chicks want to do, that's their thing. But yeah, it really hit. And I was like, why is this stupid app?

And back then it had really low resolution. And I'm like, I'd rather back then, 1080P was like what most photos I'm posting you would do at. And how you can go 4K, AK, whatever. But they wouldn't even do the high resolution. And so as a photographer, I was like, there's no way this Instagram's going to ever freaking succeed. It's stupid. You see pictures.

Yeah. Stupid. And so we were over, I can't even remember the name of it. There was one or two apps that were better than Instagram. And somehow Instagram hit. And it's interesting. And so maybe they incorporated some of the techniques that you talk about in the book, FOMO.

Yeah. So Instagram. Yeah. Instagram. So first of all, a few things came up when you were talking. And the first that occurred to me is we all come into when we're looking at another product or our own product with their own priors and our own biases. And so your lens looking at it was as a professional photographer, you wanted the most advanced features. You wanted probably to have the highest quality, all that stuff. But they understood something or they stumbled upon something, I believe. They didn't understand it from the start about how important it is. to have a simple focused app that launched right into the fastest photo taking ability of all the apps. Because when they stripped away all those other features and didn't focus on them, first of all, their customers could understand right away. What is this app for?

It's for the fastest draw of opening it, taking a photo, and sharing it. And that was the part of their brilliance. The other part was opening directly to that. that so that you didn't get lost in setting the resolution or the dimensions or worrying about who you're going to share it with. You take the photo in the moment right away with less thinking and that really focused their users. And we've seen this in a bunch of different products. So including the original Walkman. So the Sony Walkman was for the kids that are listening. It's an audio device came out, I believe in the 80s, where you could be.

finally listen to cassette tapes on the move. So you can have your personal music and your headphones and walk around pre-p- iPods and all that stuff. And apparently the engineers at Sony said, hey, for basically a dollar, we can put a record button on this. And you can also record whatever you want with it. So it's not simply a music player. And one of the creators of it, he said, don't you dare do that? We need it to simply be a music, playing device because when it's not, people will get confused and they won't know what it's for and they won't know how to describe it to others. And then our audience won't know if it's for them or not.

There'll be creators and music enthusiasts that are using it instead of the general public. So he saved the product by focusing on the core features. That's wild. And by keeping us, you can almost call this the keep it simple method, the kiss method, right? keep it simple, stupid. Exactly. I remember I was watching a pitch of one of the guys who was on the first team,

the team that built the iPhone. And it was a very select group of people at Apple. And he had gone on to Palm and then gone on to just trying to just do his own startup. And he had what I could see was a WordPress killer on his hands so that they'd built for his startup. But the problem was, is when I went to, go see the demo, he goes, I go, okay, just hand me the laptop, and we reviewed a lot of products back in the day on the Chris Foss show. And so we're used to, one of the tests we do for

product fit is how, what's the what I'm looking for? How intuitive is the product? Can I, can you just hand it to me and I can figure it out. And I think that's maybe a little bit what you're talking about is just the simple, intuitive nature. What is it? Let me screw with it, right? I don't like reading directions, but I also test. for the intuitiveness of a product. How easy is it for somebody like me to pick it up and work it? And I remember he said to me, he goes, I can't just give it to you. I'm going to have to explain to you how it works.

And right in the way my brain was like, are you going to go around and explain this to every freaking user, like millions of users, you're going to knock on doors. Right. We got to. Good luck with that. It was half an hour and 45 minutes to show me the UI and how it worked. And I was like, dude, this is not. And it was detailed.

What you said, it was so detailed and not simple that you almost needed a class to figure it out. And it was really sad. That's dead in the water. Yeah. But he didn't want to use it as WordPress killer. And I guess there were some threats of his funding that they're like, don't go after. We're also in automatic or whatever, the stock. Don't go after Word.

And so I was like, dude, this is a WordPress killer. And it was. It was really nice. and it was drag and drop play. But yeah, when you got to explain this for 45 minutes. And yeah, it failed. So it didn't go very far. Yeah.

It was a great good point. Yeah. And a lot of great products, even heavily like big features, wonderful features that are innovative, they fail because they fail to understand the psychology of the audience that they're trying to reach. And one element of it is keep it simple. stupid, basically. Can you focus on what matters and make it intuitive for people? There are many elements, though. Another one that I like to remind people of is when you're building for somebody,

if you're building for general public and you have everybody in mind and you're trying to please everybody, you're going to please nobody. And so often we want to make these products that everybody loves and nobody criticizes. That's a recipe for failure because when we're building for somebody that's a very specific target, we can make it feel like it was made just for them. Like, our marketing can speak directly to them. And the entire funnel works to reinforce them as a happy customer. But if you try to please everybody, then you're going to end up with a kitchen sink of features and nothing really feeling like it's in the group. for the users that you care about.

Yeah, yeah. It really sucks because Clubhouse was like so huge. I had a huge following there. We post a lot of rooms. We're really big on it. And I got a lot of friends out of it. I got, as a Facebook group, we had for a while. It was, and I met a lot of amazing people.

It was great. Yeah, you always had phomo, man. We had multiple accounts, multiple phones. And I know other people were running multiple phones. And part of it was you go into rooms. and sit there or if you could be on the dais, they'd have you up on the stage, and you just let the phone run.

I had two phones running on Clubhouse 24-7 pretty much, and you'd pick up followers and grow, and people would see you. It was like a billboard half the time. And if you got up spoke or did something, it was a brilliant app. And I think, I know there's a lot of mistakes with it.

I used to talk to the investors of that company, and they did, they sabotaged their own piece. But part of it was they tried to make it too complex and too overage. There were some other mistakes they made and the guys were just too young and they got sucked up into the limelight and the rock star image and hanging out with actors and rock stars. And then they just overdid it. They were trying to be, I think everything, like you say, everything to everyone. They're trying to make everyone happy. And then they were trying to keep it super woke, which I think was really annoying because

there's a certain segment of that is fine, but they just tried to be too far, I don't know. They just trying to be everything to everybody and make everyone happy. It seemed like that's what they were always scurrying around doing. They're trying to, oh, you have a complaint? Oh, we'll fix that.

And it just became an endless cycle of whatever and adding, instead of fixing stuff that need to be fixed, that was the core basis of it, they're fixing other stupid stuff. They're like, I'd really like you have you just fix your thing. It's kind of like me and Call of Duty right now. Can you fix your product, this piece of shit that you ship before you give us something new? Because all you keep shipping is pieces of shit.

And I'm tired of buying new stuff. It's a piece of shit. Fix the core. What was it? The coach, I think it was Coach Nolten or whomever. He always said he had that pyramid of talent skill or something. But he would always tell people, hey, that's great. You can run. down, do your layup there. But let me see you work to keys. Let me see you do the horse going around the thing there on the basketball court. How can you do the free throw? I mean, think how many great basketball players you can name that were great at everything except free throws. They couldn't do the basic. Was it Shaq, I think we can throw some shade at? You couldn't do the basic three throw. And you're like, you can do all this stuff. You can't

do the simple. You stand the line with no challengers. So anyway. And you get into some of the social proof, reducing friction, crafting, authentic branding. Do you want to tease out a little bit some of the insights on that you provide? Yeah. So when I launched my first dating startup, I realized about a year and a half end of toiling away, mostly solo, that it was just not going to work. And I finally, in a drunken stupor, admitted to myself and my colleagues in the office and the startup accelerator is in that it was going to fail. I just had, I voiced all. all those inner doubts and demons that I was fighting to them. And I'm so glad I did because that vulnerability and that moment of honesty led to an

absolute breakthrough in the idea for the startup and the transparency that I should go for. And from that, the wreckage of that was a successful faving startup that was finally born from the from the ashes. And that one became what is what was known as bang with Brett. Oh. That name. Yeah. Bang with friends.

Bang with friends. That name. Not sure what it means, folks, but you can Google it. Or maybe do you should Google. Yeah, please do. I mean, Google the app. Just be careful. Anything that comes up only fans, maybe.

I don't know. I'll have to set your things. Yeah. You always have to be careful what you Google sometimes in terms. You're like, this is not clearly what I was looking for. But it is interesting. Anyway, rabbit hole. So, yeah, going.

right down. So you've had, how many startups have you been involved with now, exits, and give people your argument of how many years you've been an entrepreneur now, et cetera, et cetera. I've been an entrepreneur for, let's say, 20 years, if you count it's even more, but we'll just say 20-ish. And I've had the ability, frankly, that I didn't expect it. I didn't plan it, but I've worked with startups across the world, including plenty in the States, but also in Asia, in South America, in Europe, and I've grown these user bases with these teams, running growth teams or as the founder myself, to over 100 million users. So when I was able to do those, what I realized is this user psychology stuff, understanding how people think, it really is

all around us, and it's so important to integrate every type of product, even physical goods. There's user psychology in the shampoo bottle that you're buying, in the cafe that you're going to visit today. Every part of, in the menu that you're going to see, like every part of life has these little psychological biases that we can bring out from anchor pricing you might see on the menu. I always tell people there's a hidden trap, trap door on most menus. It's basically, if you go, if you're ordering wine, for instance, the second cheapest bottle of wine is the trap because they know psychologically most people they're with anybody else on a date or with friends in a group they don't want to appear cheap so they're not going to buy the cheapest one but they'll buy the next one and that one is

where their highest margin usually is where they have crazy good margins compared to the cheapest bottle or compared to the next one above it so these are all around us and once you start to learn them, you have basically X-ray vision. So who wouldn't want to put on X-ray vision and see this stuff for your own business success, but also to avoid some of the traps that others are playing so you don't fall as a consumer. Yeah. It's so funny, like even if I'm thinking of places that I use FOMO, the one of the things I get now a lot, because I, there's a lot of stuff that I'm looking to buy, but I have severe ADHD. And I'm also, and I'm also sometimes, I want to come back. I think want to look at some other stuff there. So I'll put something in a cart, right? And I'll be like,

there's something else I want to look at before I might want to buy and add to that. But I just not have the time. And nowadays you get emails and text, hey, you love something in your cart. You don't want to miss out on her sale. And so that's in their promo point that I just realized beings played at me because I'm pretty bad. I'm pretty awful. I'm feeling carts and then wandering off. But, you know, it serves me because number one reminds me, but also there's that fear missing out. Hey, you've got that great sale product. And I've, I fomo, or no, I didn't fomo. I fucked around and found out yesterday.

I had some rush collectibles that were for sale. They're a new concert and a big fan. But there was something I had in my cart, and I was going to buy it. And I've been mucking about for a week to buy some other stuff and decide on those things. And one of the collectibles sold out. So I lost out. So, you know, there's that fomo. No.

So now I'm like, okay, I'm buying incident now. because I got screwed and I'm buying the rest of this before it disappears too. It's an interesting world. You see people like that. I remember Twitter back in the day when we were huge on Twitter had really bad fomo. There was a couple I met, and this is the early, early days of Twitter, like 2008, 2009. And there was a couple I met.

And they, I don't think they had a lot of followers because I think I was 100 or 200,000. I was like top 1,000 Twitter at the time. and they would read every tweet from the people they followed before they would go to sleep at night. They would literally both lay in bed and they had to check all. You hear these people that do this zeroing out their Gmail. I'm like, you must have a lot of time on your hands. My Gmail is probably 30, 50, 100,000 I'd answer any emails or some crap probably. But they would read every one because they had a foam mo.

They had fear of missing out. Yeah. I got to admit, first of all, I'm an inbox zero type of guy. I try to get there. Are you? Can you get there? But I have before, but I implement so many systems that try to filter things and reduce the noise and all that. But on the Twitter thing, that sounds pretty extreme. So that is definitely the fear of missing out.

And a lot of this, a lot of this, even buying the collectible, the Rush collectible you're talking about, it connects back to this. loss aversion that we feel. So basically in studies, it's shown that when we feel like we're going to lose out on something or we already have possession of something, we feel like we could already have something so the collectibles we count or something that's already in your possession, we value that approximately two times, twice as much as something that we, if somebody offered us to buy it from us. So it's a crazy, sort of balance where if we feel like we already have something and they test this with basic stuff if they give you a candy bar and they say okay you already own the candy bar it's in your

possession how much will you sell it for and they compare that to those that don't have it yet and didn't express interest in it it is approximately twice as much we value that based on that feeling of we're going to lose something so a lot of our products and companies they they they use this to their advantage. That's why free trials kind of work. Because the free trial is giving you a taste and you're like, I already have these features. I already have this ability.

I'm already solving part of this problem. Do I really want to lose that? And we value that more than something that we haven't tried yet. So for anybody who's designing your product and you're thinking about this or designing a promotion for marketing, think about using loss ofversion to try to motivate people to take that action. because we are wired, biologically wired, to avoid that loss. Yeah, it's a funny game that we play with ourselves in our mental thing.

So let's talk about some of the things that go on on your website. What are some of the offerings you have there? How do you interact or help people, et cetera, et cetera? Yeah, so I love to hear from people who want to learn about growth, want to learn about psychology or just need some help. So I do advising and consulting if you want to reach out. I do workshops for companies and I speak at conferences, all the normal stuff that most your authors talk about.

But my angle really is I made this for the 99% not the 1%. And because I came from similar background, maybe as you, modest background, on food stamps, had the Pell Grins to get through college as well. So I made this for other people like me. I'm trying to find other ways to help people. And my latest way is I'm putting together masterminds for any founders or marketers or product people who want to have a group of people to really confide in and grow together. And I'll do my best to guide the group and match you up with the right people.

If you want to apply to that, just hit me up on the website as well. And I can send you the application. And what does your ideal client look like? Do they need to have a net worth or vested interests or need to have a startup maybe at a certain size? What's the makeup of the person that you qualify for? Are they qualify for you? Yeah, definitely for the consulting services and for the mastermind, it's best if you already have some sort of traction in your business and you're just hitting growth problems or you want to take things to the next level,

you want to challenge yourself a bit more. that's who it's best for. But the book itself, outrageous startup growth, I've heard from people who are still at the idea stage or they're still in their corporate job and they're thinking, I know I want to do something else in my life,

but I'm not sure what it is yet or I'm not ready to take that leap yet. And it helps them a lot. So not a certain net worth that you need. It helps people of all backgrounds. I've heard from I have billionaires who endorse my book all the way to people who have nothing. So it's it's great to see that it applies across the board. And I really want to

help those people who are, don't, they feel like they're not well connected yet. They haven't built the network. It's not easy for them yet. So you can also listen to the book too on audio if you want. Wonderful stuff there. Yeah. A lot of entrepreneurs being, is learning the toolbox. And once you have the toolbox mastered, you can go start lots of companies. And the widget may be a different thing, the product you're selling or service. It may be different and vary, but a lot of the structure, you know, the building of the culture, the building of the company, the innovating, focus on everybody contributing, whatever the case would be. A lot of that is just, it goes from one company to another. It's, it's so great how, how at that point, all you guys should do is figure

out a better widget. And of course, like you say, angling it towards something that clients, that people actually want. Because I remember that discussion I had about the 45, minute demo. I was like the fit that they wanted, even though it was a WordPress killer and they didn't want to do WordPress killer, I was like, what is this for? And I'm like, this is organized. It doesn't seem like there's a lot of demand for it. This isn't making my nipples hard thinking about using your product. I remember being so excited to log into Clubhouse every day because, oh, I woke up. Oh, I, and there were lots of us. We'd wake up and turn on Clubhouse and we'd fall asleep to it at night. We were that excited.

it. And then we're also a fear of missing out of really great presentations and talks and meaningful people. And it was really great. Plus, it was the only one way to socialize back then because you could talk to people without standing six feet away. But yeah, really great stuff in your book. I love, thank you so much for saying that. I love your test for is the product good enough. Does it make your nipples hard? Because I have a should have in the title of your book. Does it make your nipples hard? It should have. second book maybe.

I have a similar advice in the book, which is the best startup ideas, the best product ideas should get a visceral reaction from people. And if you don't get a reaction, then go back to the drawing board. Because when we're dealing with products, when we're dealing with businesses, it's about emotions. You need to appeal to people's emotions, get their naples hard. And that's how you know you're on this. We got titles for next books.

Thank you very much for coming the show, Colin. We really appreciate it. It's been fun to have you and very insightful. Thanks for having me. Awesome to be here. Thank you. And thanks for my honest for tuning in. Order up his book,

wherever fine books are sold and you too can build successful businesses. It really is a toolbox, folks. Once you get your toolbox down and kind of know how things work, you can replicate across so many different things and ideas. That's why so many starters like Colin, You guys have had multiple projects and businesses and companies you've done. It's because you can just keep using that toolbox, but you've got to figure out the toolbox. So that's the key.

Thanks to call on for me on the show. Thanks for us for tuning in. Order up his book, Outrageous Startup Growth, uncovering the secrets of user psychology to scale your success. Go to goodreads.com, fortune as Chris Foss for your family, friends, or relatives, or I'll haunt you in your dreams or nightmares, one of the two, or both. Go to Facebook.com, Fortezs, YouTube.com, Fortezs, Crizzan. And I know what the other one is LinkedIn.com for us Christmas. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time.

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