The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Overcoming Addiction: Estle Wallace’s Journey to Helping Others

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

Overcoming Addiction: Estle Wallace's Journey to Helping Others Cornerstonehealingcenter.com About the Guest(s): Estil Wallace is the CEO and founder of Cornerstone Healing Center, a behavioral healthcare agency that under his leadership has expanded significantly, growing 15 times over in the past seven years. A father, husband, entrepreneur, and investor, Estle’s journey from battling addiction and homelessness to building a successful business has positioned him as a passionate advocate for change and transformation. With over 20 years of sobriety, he leverages both his personal experiences and professional expertise to inspire and guide others towards recovery. Estle is also the host of the "Struggle and Strive" podcast where he explores topics related to addiction recovery, leadership, and personal growth. Episode Summary: In this enlightening episode of The Chris Voss Show, host Chris Voss delves into the inspiring and powerful story of Estle Wallace, CEO of Cornerstone Healing Center. The episode offers an intimate look at Estle’s personal journey from addiction and homelessness to years of sobriety and successful entrepreneurship. Highlighting both his professional achievements and his personal growth, the conversation showcases how life's adversities can be transformed into a passion for helping others. Estle shares insights into the current addiction crisis, emphasizing the need for accessible recovery solutions and the deep human impact of substance use disorders. Throughout the discussion, Estle provides a detailed perspective on the nuances of addiction, the intersection of personal trauma and substance use, and the importance of aligning one's values with actions for lasting change. The episode also sheds light on the wider societal issues related to addiction, with Estle offering suggestions on identifying substance abuse problems, seeking help, and the significant impact of treatment centers like Cornerstone Healing Center. Additionally, the conversation touches upon the opioid crisis, emphasizing the critical role rehabilitation plays in addressing these widespread issues. Through Estle's personal anecdotes and professional insights, the episode paints a realistic yet hopeful picture of recovery and transformation. Key Takeaways: Understanding Addiction: Estle highlights the profound impact of personal and familial trauma on addiction and how fundamental recovery is to navigating life with these complex challenges. Sobriety and Success: A vital part of the conversation is Estle’s narrative of overcoming addiction to lead a fulfilling, productive life, serving as a beacon of hope for those battling similar struggles. Behavioral Health Insights: The episode offers a deep dive into the workings of Cornerstone Healing Center, painting a detailed picture of what comprehensive behavioral health care entails. Fentanyl and Alcohol Addiction: A critical topic discussed is the alarming rate of fatal overdoses from fentanyl and alcohol, showcasing the urgency for better intervention and support systems. Guidelines for Recovery: Estle shares candid insights on the practical steps toward recovery, underscoring the power of community and professional support in fostering long-term sobriety. Notable Quotes: "You do that for a long enough period, you start building a life worth living, worth salvaging, worth having, worth striving for." "If you're asking yourself, 'Am I an alcoholic?' You probably are. It's a good indicator already." "It's the illness that's unique in the respect that the person suffering from it defends it for a long time." "I started making some new friends with people who were trying to fix up their lives as well." "When you're sick and tired of being sick and tired."

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Cause you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster

with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi folks, it's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Beautiful. Ladies and gentlemen, they are the only things that makes official welcome to the show. As always, the Chris Voss Show is a family that loves you, but doesn't judge gentlemen, that makes official welcome to the big show. As always, The Chris Foss Show is a family that loves you, but doesn't judge you, at

least not as harshly as the rest of the world does because we love good people and we teach people how to be good people on The Chris Foss Show. The most wonderful guests we bring on that share their stories, their lessons of life, their journeys, their cathartic moments, and help you live your life better because I don't know if you've seen most of us, but we all need as much help as we can get. Opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or the Chris Foss show. Some guests to the show may be advertising on the podcast, but it is not an endorsement

or review of any kind. Today we have an amazing young man on the show. We're going to be talking to him about his company, Cornerstone Healing Center, and some of his journey and his experiences and how he can help you as well. We have Estelle Wallace on the show. He is the CEO of Cornerstone Healing Center and founder. He is a father, husband, entrepreneur, and investor. And he leads a behavioral healthcare agency that has grown 15x over the last seven years

under his leadership. His personal journey from addiction to homelessness to building a thriving business and family life fuels his passion for inspiring, guiding others towards transformation. With more than 20 years of sobriety, congratulations. He has mentored hundreds of men, worked with the Maricopa County jail system and supported two Arizona nonprofits dedicated to recovery and rehabilitation. Featured in Vice News Recovery Today magazine, he combines living experience and professional expertise to emphasize that lasting change is possible for anyone willing to change.

He also hosts the Struggle and Strive podcast where he shares insights on addiction recovery, leadership, and personal transformation. Welcome to the show, Mr. Wallace. How are you? Chris Wallace I'm great, man. Thank you for having me, Chris. Pete Slauson Thank you for coming. Give us your dot coms. Where do you want people to find you guys on the interwebs? Chris Wallace Our main outfit is cornerstonehealingcenter.com. It's a bit long, but it is straightforward. Cornerstonehealingcenter.com. It's a bit long, but it is straightforward,

cornerstonehealingcenter.com. If you want to follow the podcast and see some of the stuff we're talking about, you can find me at Estelle Wallace or Estelle underscore Wallace on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, all of the things. So give us a $30,000 overview, what you guys do there. Cornerstone is a behavioral healthcare agency in the the short version, Think Drug Rehab, but it's much more than that. We treat everything from primary mental health disorders like anxiety, depression, to alcoholism, drug addiction, you name it. We're a big provider for the DUI market here. We help handle a lot of DUI convictions, people that are struggling to get their licenses

back. We do virtual programming. We do all kinds of stuff. So we're pretty big outfit now. We started very small, just 10 beds originally. Wow. And we only took it in the beginning. Do you guys only cover Arizona? Right now we are in Arizona only.

And you guys have Scottsdale and Phoenix? We have two in Scottsdale and another location in Phoenix. Pete Larkin Oh, so three total. Pete Slauson Yeah, we've got three here. Pete Larkin And tell us about your journey. Clearly, you went through some things and dissolved them and you've been 20 years sober. Talk to us about how you were raised and what shaped you when you were growing up. Pete Slauson I'm the child of alcoholics.

I had alcoholic parents. A lot of alcoholism in my family, both sides of the house, so to speak, mom's side and dad's side. I went through foster care as a baby, went through adoption, which is fortunate on one side of the coin, but never really anchored. It was never really anchored to family life like some people are. And I know there are plenty of people that go through what I went through, and many worse as well.

But, I mean, that's the answer. I mean, I grew up an adopted kid and made my friend group, my family, as I was growing up, and got into drugs and alcohol at an early age. Was blackout drinking in high school, not at parties, I mean, like, couldn't get through class as a junior, as a junior and senior in high school, dropped out as a senior, got into hard drugs around that same time, started the journey of trying to get sober at 19, landed in recovery seemingly by happenstance, I believe it's God's hand, but seemingly by happenstance when I was 26, I started attending meetings in county jail here in Arizona.

Pete Slauson Oh, wow. Did you have a choice or was it kind of like something that was, you know, you had to do the meetings? Pete Slauson No, the meetings were definitely by choice, but jail was not optional. Pete Slauson Unfortunately. Pete Slauson I wanted to check out, they weren't ready to let me do it.

Pete Slauson They weren't on the program, but you were. But I imagine you cite that as something that helped you finally address the issue? Is that… John Ligato Yeah. One of the biggest barriers, I think, for people that are looking to change their lives, people that are struggling with drugs and alcohol, you know, you look at something like a 12-step program or a treatment center and it's very easy to look at that and just let your eyes glaze over and say, yeah, but that's not going

to fix all my problems. I have all these, you know, X, Y, and Z problems. But counterintuitively, most treatment, good treatment centers, and there are plenty of them, as well as the 12-step programs that are out there, you know, from AA to CA, etc. They're really geared towards helping a person find inward alignment between their values and their actions. And you do that for a long enough period, you start building a life worth living, worth salvaging, worth having, worth striving for. And for me, that's how it happened. It picked up momentum. And, you know, I had an overwhelming spiritual experience, found God, found a new lease on life. And it's something that, they talked

about it and I was reading, you know, they have a book, the Alcoholics Anonymous book, they call it the big book, lovingly. You know, reading that thing by myself in jail, I had the same experience that millions of people have had reading that book. and I thought, have you guys seen this? You know, this book was written 90 years ago, they've been reading my mail. How was it I can identify so well with this thing that was like this relic of the past? But it's very practical. It's a very practical approach for people to clean up their lives and it works most of the time on most people. And that's, I mean, I think that's an important thing. I don't think many

people understand how effective recovery is. Yeah, it can make all the difference in the world. And, you know, it's great that these, these products and these, these resources were made. And yeah, it's interesting how timeless they are. I mean, alcohol is alcoholism, drug addiction, drug addiction, addicted personality is addicted personality. A lot of people, you know, they, they have trauma, they have damage from childhood and they're using drugs to medicate it. It's 100% solving the real problem and they're laying, you know, using years

of therapy and help with agencies like yours. So how do you find your way from that to running your own operation, helping other people? It's a big, that's a great question. The answer is it's got a lot of twists and turns. I sobered up in 04, so it was the early 2000s, pre-iPhone. So the internet existed, but not really. If you think back 04, like YouTube didn't exist yet. So the internet existed but not really. If you think back, oh, for like YouTube didn't exist yet. So there was the internet wasn't what we know it as today back then. So the resources were a little bit more spread out, harder to find, but I got sober in an old-school halfway house.

Treatment as it is today didn't exist yet. There were some treatment centers, but they were primarily cash only and I was indigent. So there was no cash to be paid. There were some treatment centers, but they were primarily cash only and I was indigent, so there was no cash to be paid. Yeah, I mean, there was a law, a federal law that went into effect along with the ACA back in 2009 that makes treatment accessible to anybody with insurance. So that's very different now than it was then. But back then, you know, we had halfway houses. So I got sober in a halfway house, an old school halfway house in the hood in central

Phoenix. Wow. And I moved in there with a backpack with one change of dirty clothes, a pair of bolt cutters and a kitchen knife. A pair of bolt cutters and a kitchen knife? Yeah, like the kind you'd see in a horror movie or you would, you know, normally cut vegetables with. I had, yeah, that's all I had when I checked in there.

And I went through the same process that people who find long-term recovery go through. I went through the 12 steps. I went to lots of meetings. I started making some new friends with people that were trying to fix up their lives as well. So I started becoming part of a healthier community and got my first job move in furniture, which is pretty basic. I made $8 an hour as minimum wage back then. Pete Yeah. Pete And that grind of being uncomfortable, wanting to drink, wanting to get high and forget about all this, but suffering through the misery and doing the inward work of cleaning up my wreckage of my past, you know, learning how to trust a

God I didn't believe in, learning how to help others even though I didn't have, in my view, much to give. That beautiful place of surrender, even when I can't see the results, that was the beginning of working on, you know, long-term goals that are the things worth striving for in life. You want to build a business, you want a healthy marriage, you want to raise healthy kids, you want to make a lot of money, you want to get in a good shape, all these things are, they take, they're not destinations. They're routines, they're cadences, they're rhythms that when you get into them and you get sort of good at them, you see,

especially if you're like on Instagram or TikTok or something, and you see somebody who's performing well, you think, oh, I want that. That takes a long time and it's hard. And for me, getting sober and going through that miserable time, that was what was necessary. And it taught me some really valuable lessons around delayed gratification, around putting in elbow grease and doing hard things without seeing an immediate return right away. And so many people, I had an overwhelming spiritual experience about six months in, the obsession to drink and use and harm myself and my hatred for other people just vanished into thin air. And with that gone, because

I felt like I was drowning my whole life, you know? And to suddenly be able to breathe, I didn't feel like I'd won the lottery, you know? It wasn't like, oh, I'm crushing life. But it was like, I'm okay. It honestly felt like I'm going to survive this for the first time. That's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah, not, yeah, it wasn't like a celebration. It was like, it was this massive relief that my life was actually going to have, I was going to have a chance to live a normal life with normal people and do normal shit.

And then what motivated you to want to help other people and stuff? You know, it starts in 12-step programming, the sponsorship, helping other guys through the same life-changing work is a big part of it. And getting into that rhythm, I find real joy in helping people, not just through sponsorship, but through lots of ways. I mentor lots of guys. It's mostly within 12-step programming, but some that are not, some in the business side.

I don't want to list what organizations or what amounts, but my wife and I, we give charitably, generously, often have for a long time now. That's been a big piece of it. When making, you know, we have a, the ninth step is about making amends, about repairing damage done in the past. And I had some stuff on my ninth step list that I didn't know how to repair. So I had some burglaries and things like that, things that I'd stolen from the general public that I didn't have a way to make amends to anybody because I didn't know who they were

or how to find them. And the guy that took me through the steps suggested, why don't we do this? Since you don't know who these people are and you're talking about a few thousand dollars, why don't we, when you get ahead in your finances, get your rent paid, let's keep you indoors. But once you get ahead on your finances, let's go down to the halfway house where you got sober and talk to the management and find out who's doing really well but can't make their rent. And why don't you just secretly make their rent happen for them? Pete Slauson I love that.

Pete Slauson Yeah. And I started doing that and I did that for years. I still do it. So that sort of began this journey of not only trying to help out, but just the joy that comes from being a help for other people. I've had in the time I've been sober and in business and living this new life, because I very much feel like I've had two different lives. And in this life, you know, being a part of this cycle of energy where we can help people, just like people help me, it's been amazing.

It's a wonderful part of life. You know, I didn't get into the behavioral health space right away. I've done a lot of different projects. I've been an entrepreneur since I was about two and a half years sober. I started my first little company and it was just a little consultancy, but I learned I was good at sales. I learned eventually how to manage people and I learned how to build organizations and I learned about marketing.

The skill stack developed over a decade and a half. Trying things, having some success, having a lot of failure. I've done a lot of things that didn't work out. Some stuff that worked out to some minimal success for a limited amount of time. And Cornerstone was. It came at a time where I wasn't looking to start a business. It was just something that popped up. I was, I just put a business to bed about a year prior to that and didn't have a new project on deck.

I had taken a commission only sales job and ended up fascinated with the treatment space and realized not only was it an amazing platform to help people in a much in a much larger way than I was able to individually? But but there's a real business model there. It's not it's not a crazy wild business model It may have you know, I don't know what kind of stories you've heard But it's a it's a pretty traditional brick-and-stick business You can you can get between a 15 and a 25 percent profit margin depending on your business model and what state you're in and all that kind of stuff. So it's very much a normal business with a lot of, unfortunately, a lot of regulation. So there is that.

But getting into this space, like I said, wasn't something I had really thought about for years or anything like that. I stumbled onto this idea and started to romanticize it. My wife and I built a pro forma and a business plan. And next thing you know, we borrowed the money to start this place and then didn't sleep for two years while we tried to get it off the ground. But you pulled it off. Congratulations.

Thank you. I mean, building a successful company that thrives and survives is really hard to do. I mean, the odds are technically against you. Yeah. Good for you. So let's talk about, I've lived in Vegas for 20, 25 years and I thought I understood addiction until I moved to Vegas. And there's a lot of people that are truly addicted in Vegas.

It was addictive personalities, you know, and Vegas is the worst place to move if you have addictive personality, because we have everything, and it's all for play. All night long, all day long. And I met some people that, I mean, they just, they have a real hard time functioning life. They, their paycheck has to go into a brother

or someone in their family's account, because if they get ahold of their paycheck, they'll be down at the casino in two hours, they'll spend two weeks of income. You know, worse if it's drugs or alcohol or other things, gambling is huge. Pete Slauson Yeah. Pete O'Brien So, talk to us about how big the addiction and overdose crisis is right now. Pete Slauson It's staggering. It makes headlines. The opiate part of the equation makes headlines from time to time. The count as of the last several years is about 107,000 American lives are lost to opiate overdose annually.

And most of those are fentanyl. Heroin has taken a backseat. It's not gone, but fentanyl has definitely come to center stage. What's striking in addition to that is the 170,000 American lives we lose every year to excessive alcohol use. That's CDC numbers. Now, what they don't do is combine those. They don't call addiction just addiction. But if you combine alcoholism and drug addiction, if you just call it substance use disorder and you look at the mortality rate, you're looking at the third leading cause of death in America. Wow.

We're losing 758 American lives every 24 hours. And these aren't people in their 70s or 60s. These are people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, mostly. Yeah, these are people's mothers, fathers, kids. Brothers, sisters, kids. You know, this is a human element to this. Yeah, and it's unfortunate. And you know, I used to watch, I think there was some show that used to do, it was a rehab show and they had stars in it and stuff.

Pete Slauson Like Intervention or something? Pete Slauson Yeah, it was Intervention or something. And it was interesting to see how, you know, both sides and all the different aspects of dealing with addiction, dealing with drug addiction or even like hoarders and things of that nature. I had a father who was a hoarder. Really? Yeah. It was really interesting to see somewhere there's a mental breakdown of something.

My sister is too. And yeah, there's just, you know, these missing points of people that they turn to addictive sort of behavior things. And to see that it, you know, my father used to, I mean, he had an older car and it was a Ford, what was it, a Ford Granada. remember that in the 70s? And they had these bucket seats and then they're the back, they really didn't have, things were very separated in those older cars. And he literally had up to the back headrests, papers of just, I mean, literally it was a back seat of just probably thousands of papers and crap, but mostly just papers and documents and it was like and he would hoard them and we're like can we throw some of that away and he's

no I gotta keep it. It's always funny. But just watching the addiction you know throughout my life thank God I guess I never had an addictive personality. Watching that go on is really crazy. I know fentanyl has become a big killer because they're lacing it and everything now and just the teeniest amount can kill you. Yeah, it's very lethal. It's highly lethal. I saw a video or TikTok or something and the guy was showing how much of different drugs it takes to kill you. And he showed the fentanyl and it was minuscule the amount and I was just like, wow. Yeah, they measure it in micrograms. It's tiny. That is scary.

A tiny amount is lethal. And it can just kill you. And so do you, I know that, I know that it's January, 2025 for those watching this video years from now, but I know that some of the things that I think the new administration is trying to do is to attack the fentanyl crisis at both borders, Canada, which I don't think much comes in from Canada from what I know. I don't think so either. Yeah.

And then Mexico. Do you see any of those changes they're trying to make being effective? I don't know. I live in Arizona. Yeah. So we're a border state. The traffic, from what I've heard in the last, very recently, has been significantly cut.

But you're talking about something, this is an economic black market system that's been happening for decades. So the cartels, they're getting wholesale supplies from various countries like China where they can get these substances and then they're taking the raw materials and they're pressing them into pills. So the pills, they look like Percocet 30s, like a 30-milligram Percocet pill, but it's not what they are. They're just got whatever filler they put in them and they're fentanyl pills. And they then, however they get them through tunnels, through cars, whatever they do, they

get them over the border. And there's unfortunately a large market there. It's a hot commodity. And oddly, I've been sober since the early 2000s. The sad joke that some of me and my friends say is that, you know, when we did drugs, they were both illegal and expensive. And I gotta tell you, a fentanyl pill enough to kill a man is only a dollar. What? A dollar. Wow. You know, I did heroin in the 90s. I mean, to have a 40, 60, 80 dollar a day habit was no big deal. These kids, they got

a 10, 20 dollar a day habit and some of them are dying. I mean, hundreds of them are dying a day. Pete Slauson I mean, you can smoke some pot or take an edible and if it's got fentanyl, it'll kill you. Pete Hick That's right. Pete Slauson And that's what's happening to a lot of people, man. You can't even trust those illegal drugs, eh? Pete Hick No, no. I heard a story, unfortunately, at dinner last night of a man whose close friend's daughter was 17 years old, took a blue pill with a beer, not really a drug person.

You know, the hardcore phenol addicts, they're smoking them. They crush them up, smoke them off of tin foil. That's not what this gal was doing. She's a high school student. Somebody gave her a pill, she took it and she died. Wow. Just recently, like in the last week or so. What a tragedy. Oh gosh, it happens all the time.

All the time. So what can we do better to try and, I don't know, change laws, society, you know, I mean, if it wasn't for the fact that we had such a market here and people were willing to buy it, I don't know, it's always going to be bought and sold. What are some different things that people can do or if I have an addictive personality, how do I identify I have a problem since it's time to get help, maybe two? Pete Slauson Let me start with that last question first. If you're wondering, am I an alcoholic or do I have a problem? You probably do. It's a good indicator already, just existentially

if you're like, do I fit into that bucket? You probably do if you're asking the question. It is diagnosable by clinicians, but you can self-diagnose. Most people usually, they don't usually want help unless they've come to the conclusion that I really need help. So if you're contemplating, do I need help, ask yourself some honest, tough questions. Have you changed, do I change my standards to meet my current conditions? Do I miss appointments? Do I miss time with my children? I can give you examples out of my history.

Like I would have somewhere to be and I couldn't get out of the bathroom. This is the 90s. I was smoking crack. I couldn't leave the bathroom. You know, the bathroom for hours. That's unhealthy behavior. Not everyone's situation is defined, you know, not everybody's alcoholism or addiction is defined by their financial status.

Mine was, I was, I was very poor. And so it was easy for me to point to, you know, I can't make rent, I can't keep a roof over my head, things like that. But I work, I won't say his name, but I'm, I'm friends with a very wealthy, very famous guy and you know, he's worth, I't know half billion dollars or something and I asked him Over lunch. I said what is what is because we talked about powerlessness over drugs now call I said what does powerlessness look like when you got a half billion in the bank? I just said just for me. I just got to know and he looked me in the eyes

And he said after we get done at this restaurant, what are you gonna do? I saw I said I'm gonna go home and See what my wife's cooking for dinner. maybe play with my kids. He said, yeah. He said, I could buy this restaurant. We could buy this whole block and have people serve us food and never leave. He said, I could go anywhere in the world and do anything I want, except I can't go to the one place I want to go and I want to go home. I'm not welcome. Wow. Yeah, it broke my heart. Yeah, that broke my heart. So yeah, that's the kind of thing that drugs now call

robs people of. It robs us of our dignity. It robs us of our integrity. It robs us of relationships. For many people, it robs us of financial opportunities, educational opportunities, but that's not everyone. Some people have managed to get ahead and do well despite having an ongoing monster that they're trying to hide from the world. But money won't save you, unfortunately. Pete Slauson Yeah. You have to save yourself. You know, you got to make that choice, right?

You got to come to the moment where you go, I'm sick and tired, I'm not going to take this shit anymore. J.C. That's right. A common expression is when you're sick and tired of being sick and tired and I'm not going to take this shit anymore. That's right. A common expression is when you're sick and tired of being sick and tired. I like that. I've had that. Yeah.

And you know, it's, I like the idea. If you're asking yourself, if you have a problem, you might definitely have a problem. Yeah. Ask yourself, do you ever use the, have you ever used the little cup that comes with cough syrup? If you don't, I mean, that's, I've never used it in my life. You know, that's an alcoholic move, you know? How much is this? I don't know, just hit it a couple of times. I do that with Pepto-Bismol and some really awful results. Yeah, you may have to

check that out. But yeah, with everything else, I use the cup because otherwise I'd miss the diagnosis. But plus I try not to take a lot of sedum and methamphetamine, but you know, I use the cup because otherwise I'm just diagnosed. But plus I try not to take a lot of acetaminophen, but I'm not addicted. One thing that my friends used to have, I don't know if this subject broaches as well, but one of the problems they used to have was I have friends that were addicted to, they have addicted personalities and they were addicted. And my personal tests I've taken, I don't have an addictive personality, but I am compulsive in ADHD and OCD and squirrel. In fact, that just threw my whole train of thought that squirrel is a good joke. But basically my friends would be addicted. So they would get up and smoke pot morning, noon and night. They would smoke in the middle. They have to get up in the

middle of the night and smoke it. And I've seen people do the same with cigarettes and imagine other drugs. But I would drink alcohol late at night to kind of get some more energy, finish off some of my entrepreneurial business. And then I was delusional and I thought it would make me sleep well better, or at least knock my ass out. Because with my CD brain I was up. But I never had, I never was addicted to it Like I didn't get the Jones's if I was out of vodka and it was late at night and I was tired and I wasn't

Gonna go the store. I was just gonna make a fucking I'll go tomorrow You know, I went Jones and I would see my friends that were addictive Jones and you know They start shaking and in different things they don't get their fix And so we'd have this argument of whether I was addicted or not like they were. And I'm like, no, I just abuse alcohol. I don't, I'm not really addicted to it, but you know, here I am drinking half a bottle of vodka every night, or almost every night, pretty much,

but pretty much almost every night. And so what are your thoughts on that? The difference between addiction and abuse? What I didn't realize was at the time, I was using it as abuse for childhood trauma that I had resolved. And I need to fix that. But what are your thoughts on that, the difference between abuse, abusing drugs and then being addicted?

Pete Slauson A good measuring stick is what we call powerlessness. Where's your power over the habit? For example, if you're building a negative track record of destructive behavior because of, and you're tying into alcohol specifically, a challenge would be don't drink for a year, see how your life turns out. If the thought of not drinking for a year sounds impossible, you may be in over your head. If you think to yourself, yeah, challenge, game on, let's do it. That's a healthy response. There are a lot of people that drink, that choose to give alcohol up or to cut it back as they age and they get a little wiser, say, this stuff is not that

good for me. That's a very healthy response to to life and growing whereas When you've got a person who says yes, I know that this is killing me I know this is bad for me And then they continue and they continue and you start to watch their life disintegrate in all the ways that matter most and then that person with tears in their eyes looks at you and says I Need to stop. I don't know how that's my guy. That's the guy that I can help. You get sick of being sick.

You get sick and tired of being sick and tired. Yeah. And that's eventually what I did with booze. I mean, around COVID, I mean, it just, and you mentioned this earlier too. My life had become losing the next day to hang over and feeling like shit, and not getting much of anything done. I started, I'd lost a lot of weight and started eating healthy, right, gave up pop.

And I started to notice, you know, the three day bloat from alcohol where you drink it and the next day you're dehydrated and your body is just a mess. And then I would notice that my body would just drag for three days. And at 50, my body was just like, we're done with this with you and we're not, we're not going to have this anymore. And if you want to drink for an hour and have your little fun there, boy, we're going to make it painful for three days. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't get easier with age. And, and you know what? You don't, I don't meet, you won't meet a lot of, you know, heroin addicts in their sixties. Wow. You know, meth addicts in their sixties, you just

won't, they're not around. Wow. You know, alcoholics, depending on how they are on what their consumption looks like, if they're still eating, if they're not beginning with vodka first thing in the morning, you know, they can live into their sixties. They don't often live into their seventies, but you know, the guy that starts drinking vodka and isn't eating and consumes vodka all day, you got about three years. Pete Slauson Yeah. There was like one or two times where I drank in the morning. Pete Larkin Yeah.

Pete Slauson One time was for a dentist appointment. And so, I had a good reason. Pete Larkin Yeah, I get that. Pete Slauson I got into him before and for some reason his gas and his payments weren't working on me because I have a high tolerance for everything. That's why I drink a lot of vodka just to have a good time. But you know, maybe a good answer to my question too is, you know, the difference between abuse and alcohol is if you're having to con yourself in sort of bullshit, cope belief systems. I have to have this or I'm not addicted or,

you know, it's only half a bottle of vodka every day or every other day. You know, if you're starting to make, what are those things called? Excuses for your habit, whatever it is, whether you think you're addicted or abused, it's probably a sign you have a problem, right? Pete Yeah, it's an illness that is unique in the respect that the person suffering from it defends it for a long time. It's generally a wife, a mother, a father, a husband, a loved one who pushes the person towards help. And, you know, for those out there that may hear this who have people in their lives that have been pushing them and they've ask yourself you know have I let people slip away out of my life people that I care about do the people that do the handful of people that know my middle name still want to still want

to fuck with me at all and if that list is just getting shorter and shorter I mean it's worth looking into you know When I sat in an AA meeting in county jail and listened to this guy, I didn't think I was an alcoholic. I thought I had a million problems. I wasn't, I wasn't zeroed in that I was an alcoholic. I just thought I had a lot of problems, legal problems, woman problems, you know, you name it. And I listened to this guy who was healthy, clean, had taken time out of his amazing life to drive down to the jail and talk to a bunch of inmates. And he talked about drinking and his life spiraling out of control.

And then he would get sober. And then he would stay sober for months and become so miserable and sobriety, he'd rather kill himself, unwilling or unable to kill himself. He'd go back to drinking and his life would spiral out of control. And he talked about it for 45 minutes this cycle and as he talked I just sunk in my chair. I thought man, that's what's wrong with me. I can't stay sober because I hate myself I hate sobriety. I don't like people and he

Tied a bow on it and called that alcoholism called himself an alcoholic and I thought Is that is that what I am? Am I an alcoholic? You could see it from the moon that I got a problem with drugs and alcohol. First time I considered it. 26 years old and sitting in a county jail with 50 strangers in an AA meeting. That was a big turning point for me. Pete Slauson And I imagine, you know, the what's the number

one rule of AA admitting you have a problem turning point for me. And I imagine, you know, what's the number one rule of AA, admitting you have a problem is the first step. The first step is powerlessness, yeah. Yeah. And I imagine taking on the moniker of that name, am I alcoholic? You know, I used to ask myself that question. And again, to your earlier point, if you're having to ask yourself that question, maybe you might be.

What's that, redneck comedian? Yeah. Yeah. If you have that, you might be a redneck. Yeah. Yeah. On one side of the coin, I understand why people who are struggling with it don't want to be saddled with this handle of alcoholism or drug addiction. I don't want to be called that because I think intuitively most everyone that's an adult understands that that's a death sentence. Alcoholics and drug addicts die. We lose about 758 here in this country every day. Pete Larkin Wow.

Brian Smith I mean, how many people a day? Brian Smith That's two 777s, like the big ones that fly, two of those going down and killing everybody alive every 24 hours. Pete Larkin Wow. Brian Smith I mean, you think about how many ones that fly, that's two of those going down and killing everybody alive every 24 hours. I mean you think about how many lives that is all those people are somebody's kids somebody's dad somebody's mom somebody's sister brother somebody's boss somebody's employee someone's loved one it's 758 of them. I

Mean, what time is it? Yep. It's hundreds have died already today. And these aren't, these aren't, you know, accidents. These are, it's accidental overdose. Yeah. You know, they're doing too much or they're drinking themselves to death. Most of those are from alcohol. Most of those are from vodka specifically. Wow. Wow. Now, CDC calls it excessive alcohol use.

That's the death. That's the death label. You know, every now and then I drink a lot of coffee. I've got an espresso machine, so I kind of have... You'll have a long time doing that. I have a new problem. I don't know about my bank account though. It's a money pit, this espresso. I call it the espresso cult. It's like a money pit. It's like there's always something new to buy and every now and then I get caffeine withdrawal cause I'll,

I won't keep up with whatever system I'm using for abusing espresso. I've just switched my abuse basically from espresso, but every now and then I get that caffeine withdrawal and it gives you that headache like a alcohol withdrawal. I I've never really done any of the drugs and so I don't know what withdrawal feels like there. You're not missing out. Yeah, thanks. But you know, I'll remember and I'll be like, shit, I used to feel this way, but I would feel this way for a day or two days. And this headache and the shitty feeling, unfortunately it doesn't give me the

rest effects. It just gives me that pounding headache. But I just think back at all the days I wasted curled up in a ball after a hard night of drinking and not staying hydrated. I think about how many years I wasted drinking when really I should have just gotten the therapy and gotten professional help or lobotomy, one of the two. My psychiatrist still recommends the lobotomy. As we go out, let's get a pitch out to the podcasts that you guys are doing and anything else we haven't talked about that you want to tease out to people. Pete Slauson Sure, sure. If you want to find us, we've got a podcast going where we're talking about all things recovery, entrepreneurship, fixing our credit, you know, getting our lives. It's

for those of us that are, you know, regardless of age that are still trying to get our shit together. It's called Struggle and Strive. We've got a website, struggleandstrive.co. You can find us on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. We're putting out episodes every Tuesday. Likewise, if you are struggling, you know somebody that's struggling, you got questions about what is long-term recovery, what does treatment look like, you can always check out our website cornerstonehealingcenter.com. We're here to help. Pete Slauson And if you're someone who's, you know, sees

someone that maybe needs an intervention, your family out there, etc., etc., I suppose they can reach out to you as well. David Larkin Absolutely. We're here to help. Even if someone doesn't land in our program, this is all we do every day, all day. So, if you've got questions, you don't know where to turn, the healthcare system is very confusing. You could always call us and just say, hey, I've got a brother, sister, mother that needs help. Where should I turn? And we can be a wealth of resource. So give us your final pitch on how can people reach out to you. I think we covered most

of that just now, but your final thoughts as we go out. Chris, I want to thank you for having me on here. It's a real honor, real pleasure. If you're looking for me or want to learn more, you can go to struggleandstrive.co. We've got a podcast where we talk about all things, people trying to pull their lives together and do better for themselves from everything from recovery to finances and parenting. That's it, struggleandstrive.co, that's where we can find us. Pete Slauson Thank you very much for coming on the show.

We really appreciate it. Chris Faus Thank you for having me, Chris. Pete Slauson Thank you. And thanks for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com for us, that's Chris Faus, linkedin.com for us, that's Chris Faus. Chris Faus is one of the Tik Tok-y and all that good stuff. And I hope if anyone out there is listening to this, it has, you know has these sort of issues we've discussed today, please get help and get professional help from professional people. Don't buy crystals. Don't buy sage.

Get professional help. Thanks everyone for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time.