The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Primal Dating: The unflinching evolutionary psychology guide to modern relationships by Tim Ash, Dr. Limor Gottlieb

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

Primal Dating: The unflinching evolutionary psychology guide to modern relationships by Tim Ash, Dr. Limor Gottlieb Amazon.com Timash.com In a world where finding connection feels hopeless, Primal Dating explodes onto the scene with evolutionary truth bombs that will revolutionize your love life. Forget the useless pop-culture advice you’ve been fed—this raw, unflinching guide dives deep into our ancient wiring to expose why modern dating feels so impossibly broken. What if everything you’ve been taught about attraction and relationships is dead wrong? What if the key to finding your perfect match isn’t another dating app, but understanding the primal forces that have driven human connection for hundreds of millennia? Learn about: What drives men’s and women’s mating instincts Love hormones and the stages of bonding Unconscious attraction and mate selection cues Commitment and non-monogamy Jealousy and cheating Practical guides for women and men to find better relationships Prepare for a mind-blowing journey that will transform how you connect forever!About the author Tim Ash is an acknowledged authority on evolutionary psychology and digital marketing. He is a sought-after international keynote speaker, and the bestselling author of Unleash Your Primal Brain and Landing Page Optimization (with over 50,000 copies sold worldwide, and translated into six languages). Tim has been mentioned by Forbes as a Top-10 Online Marketing Expert, and by Entrepreneur Magazine as an Online Marketing Influencer To Watch. Tim is a highly-rated keynote speaker and presenter at over 200 events across four continents. He has been asked to return as a keynote at dozens of events because of the fantastic audience response. Tim shines on massive stages with over 12,000 attendees, as well as in intimate executive events or workshops. He offers dynamic conference keynotes, workshops, and corporate training services (both in-person and virtually). Tim also selectively works as an online marketing advisor with senior executives.

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with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. I'm your host, Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Thechrisvossshow.com. Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that makes it official. Welcome to the show. As always, for 16 years and 24 hours episodes, we bring The Chris Voss Show, because we had nothing better to do with our time. We're like, hey, you know, we should go out and improve the lives of others. And then we found these people that were like, hey, I think

this podcast has really smart people on it. We should listen to it. But what we need you guys to do now is to go out and refer the show to your family, friends, and relatives. Tell them about our Lord and Savior, thechristphoshshow.com. And tell them to go to goodreads.com, where it says, Chris Foss, that's bad, sacrilegious. No it's not. We're gone into ourselves. You know, I mean, there's other people that we have to work with, but you know, we have our own attitude. Anyway, guys, go to facebook.com for us. LinkedIn.com for us. That's Chris Voss.

And Chris Voss won. And until you refer a family or friend or relative, I'll keep doing stupid ass rambles just to get you to do it. Anyway, we have an amazing young man rejoining us on the show. He's been a friend of mine for a long time. I probably should disclose that in case we just give him a good showing. I'll deny it in a court of law. Tim Ash joins us on the show with us today. His newest book has just come out and it is entitled Primal Dating, the Unflinching Evolutionary Cyan Psychology. Let me recut that primal dating, the unflinching evolutionary psychology guide to modern relationships out June 23rd, 2025. And boy, do we need help because I've been dating all my life, run a big

5,000 member dating group and boy, have I seen some shit. So seeing, seeing a lot actually 57 my back hurts uh and it was probably because I was doing primal dating but uh that was probably in the bedroom anyway Tim is an acknowledged authority on evolutionary psychology and digital marketing he is a sought-after international keynote speaker and the best-selling author of Unleash Your Primal Brain, which I believe we had him on the show for, and Landing Page Optimization. Oh, that's a sexy title right there. I'm turned on now. He sold over 3000 copies worldwide and translated in six languages.

He's been renowned and mentioned by Forbes as top 10 online marketing expert and entrepreneur magazine as an online marketing influencer to watch. Screw that, read his books. Anyway, welcome to the show, Tim. How are you? Thanks, Chris. Great to be back with you. I like it. I'm like, hey, you should watch this guy. Tim, I know your history of your career. Jesus, it's a little late to start watching it. It's kicking ass and taking names all these years. So give us your dot coms.

Where can people find you on the interwebs? On the interwebs? Well, the timash.com. That's pretty easy. T-I-M-A-S-H dot com. And with regard to this latest book we'll be chatting about, that's primaldating.com. How do you spell the Tim part? No, I'm just kidding.

Just kidding. So give us a 30,000 overview of what's inside the new part. No, I'm just kidding. Just kidding. So give us a 30,000 overview. What's inside the new book? Well, you know, as you know, there's a giant breakdown in relationship formation these days. I mean, it's a war out there and nothing's working. No, everyone's unhappy. The men are like segregating into red pill communities. The women are feminist hating on them. And in the middle, there's dropping fertility rates, dissatisfaction with relationships, and I believe kind of an irreversible political polarization as a result too. And we're like, what's going on here? And I think there's a, that relationships and dating really gets at the core of a lot of these frustrations and things we're seeing. So what you're saying is people aren't fucking. No, I'm just kidding. Actually, no, that's not far off the truth. Yeah. So not only less marriages, less stable relationships, but people aren't fucking, you know, the number of men,

for example, men under 30 that have had sex in the last year has tripled in the last decade from 10% to 30% So people aren't fucking yeah, well the women are There's is down too. So it's it's like there's it's not about taking style, but not quite as much as men's in fact Yeah, I have to pull the data. I might have different data, but no, I mean, it's definitely a shit show out there with dating There's it's it's really a shit show out there with dating. It's really interesting what's going on. According to my numbers, I don't know what your numbers show in data if you tracked any of this, but we have about from the numbers I've done internally and then what's the old adage?

A lot of times when you register to six, you can get a dipstick that's a continuum. It's kind of like pollsters, like pulling for politics. If you can, if you pull, if you pull well, let's put it that way. Cause there's a lot of Jimmy rigging that sometimes goes on some of these things. And sometimes they're really left and right pollsters that are angling for the news they want. But if you pull, you know, a certain segment, if you pull a thousand people that actually can tell you, you know, cause they even kind of operates the same. We're not all that, we're not all that individualistic no matter how many Subaru commercials you watch.

Subaru commercials are like, you could be a unique snowflake if you buy a Subaru. And I'm like, yeah, but they sell like 50 million of them. Like how much of a unique snowflake are you if you're, if you're buying a thing, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, you've seen that in marketing where people are like, you can be an exclusive person if you buy a Volvo. You know, that's, that's funny. You say that in terms of going with the herd, like one of the things that the book really focuses on are obvious asymmetries between men and women. I mean, let me get this out of the way.

I think you need to have equality in the sense that we all have equal dignity and worth as human beings, and we should be treated with respect. And that's kind of an obvious, but then to take that idea and to say, men and women are exactly the same, like my teenage daughter tells me, that's ridiculous. And so what we find, like one of the most important

dimensions, the difference between men and women is women have a lot more at stake. So they're much more risk averse. That means that pretty much any psychological or behavioral dimension, they are in a very tight group, whereas men, like you the bell curve for men on any dimension is really wide. So you have, for example, a lot of idiots and a lot of geniuses. Most women are kind of clustered in the middle. Now, the averages are about the same, but because men are designed to take risks and

perform for women from an evolutionary standpoint to get their attention, men have a lot more duds and a lot more variability in their behavior. Yeah. It's kind of interesting how they are playing the game though now. And it depends on the age group because certain age groups can't perform on the dating market as well as others. It is a dating market. I mean, absolutely. That's one of the things I have a hard time.

Well, I mean, a hard time is obvious, but I have a hard time getting people to understand that it is a marketplace. I mean, you are selling is obvious, but I have a hard time getting people to understand that it is a marketplace. I mean, you are selling a product and the product is you. And it is you. And so there's actually two things we need to understand. We go into this in the book a lot. You have to understand how men and women attract others and how they select their opposite number, right?

So those are completely separate things. When men and women attract and select very differently. But one of the things you mentioned was and women attract and select very differently. But one of the things you mentioned was age. That's absolutely the case. So you talk about differences between men and women. Well, one of the things that we absolutely know is that there's a crossover.

Women basically get their power early as a result of being fertile and young and attractive. It just kind of handed to them. And then it declines the rest of their life. In the sexual marketplace, that's what we're seeing based on people's behavior. Men's, it's the opposite.

Young men are pretty useless. I mean, they don't have any skills to be useful to other men, they don't have the lifestyle to provide for or attract women, so they kind of peak in middle age between 40 and 60. So you have this crossover, I call it the box, so where 30 is the crossover point. So, that's the point where, you know, women lose their advantage and it continues to get worse,

that gap, and men are gaining. So, women kind of peak early and men peak late. So, to talk about just men and women is also not enough. You have to talk about the life stage. Pete Slauson Yeah. And then one thing that no one talks about, I probably should have tipped you off, but I've got a book on dating. I'm working on two is part of that age thing. So the, in my group, uh, we have, you know, we have 20 to 70 and we have about 5,000 people. And, um, uh, one thing that's interesting is in the groups, Facebook gives me a breakdown of ages and stuff so I can see like 10 year blocks. And so a lot of women start having a lot of problems at 50 because they hit what we call

the second wall, or I call the second wall or some people call the second wall. Now you mentioned the first wall, the first wall is at 30 is when men's value, when men's finally start to have value, they've got their career started, they're starting their rocket ship ride, taking off the launching pad. And you're right. That's only by the way, if they're hustling and working to level up both their attractiveness to women and their kind of their resourcing potential, if you will. I mean, if you just stay home and play Call of Duty in your mom's basement, it doesn't matter how old you are. No one's going to be attracted to you in the dating market. And that's why I'm still single at 57. Not judging here.

Not, yeah. Well, I mean, I know the truth. That and the Playboy. But you know, I don't think of it as a wall. If I get one in the book, so my brilliant co-author, Lamor Gottlieb and I talk about the crossing curves. Okay. So again, so imagine it's a crossover at age 30, right? So you can put a box around that X in the middle, you know, the crossover. So the top of the box would be kind of more traditional, older, well-resourced men for younger women.

They're equal value in the mating market and they're trading at the top of their power, if you will. At 30, that's the crossover point. Both are essentially equally attractive, equally desirable. And that's a temporary passing phase, but that's, now we have women putting off their first marriage till 29, which is right about 30. You can't push it much further and still retain any advantage at all.

So that's the middle of the box. The bottom is what we call Cougars playing the game on hard mode. That's older women with younger men. And that's also a point of equivalence. And the women are just trying to get like that, that last chance at getting the genetic upgrade from the young guy, but not the provisioning. So that's possible too. The two biggest imbalances are younger same-age couples and middle-age same-age couples. Because women, when they're young,

they don't want to deal with their pimply classmates. There's a lot of more established men already making plays for them. And then like you said, what you're calling the second wall, right around middle age 40 and up, men have a sustained advantage over all women their age. And so that makes it really hard. And the women are like, well, I put them through med school

and I take care of his children and blah, blah, blah. And regardless of what the mechanics of the breakup were or the relationship changed, that midlife crisis is happening because there's a very large power imbalance. Yeah. And it's interesting how, you know, part of it is too, is the social aspect. So feminists has told women, wait till later in life to marry. Now, you know, you mentioned like And that's when women say, Hey, I'm not getting as many calls from Chad. I can't make it on the dating apps as well. You know, this is all stuff that I hear from them. So it's time to settle down. And plus they've got that biological clock that well, that's what that biological clock is.

Yeah. That's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the thing that's going to be the most important thing for them. And that's the, that's the thing that's going to be the most important thing for them. And that's the thing that's going to be stuff that I hear from them. So it's time to settle down. And plus they've got that biological clock that- Well, that's what that biological clock is. Yeah. That's right. It hits pretty hard right around age 30. But the way that I look at it, but it's not just feminism, it's not that

simplistic. There's several kind of root causes to this. One is that women have reproductive control. When the pill came along, you can delay or avoid pregnancy, so the consequences, the risks they were taking goes away. Then of course, there's a surge in educational and financial attainment. That's great too. I want the best for my daughter. I want the best for my son, but right now it's like 60, 40, I think college graduates are women. But yeah, but at the same, and in large cities until they decide to have a kid, they're actually outearning men as well. And that's fantastic, except for the part where men and women evolved for women to find

their best match, which means somebody that's doing better than them. Hypergamy is the technical term for it. And unfortunately, that means that most men have become essentially invisible because women are like, you know, doing great, but the men aren't even being considered by them. So that's another issue. Yeah, it's very multifaceted. And sadly, it's with belief systems that don't process logic and reason is the big challenge. Well, let me come back to that because I think you're absolutely right. One of the things that, you know, we're getting so much, let's say, interesting pushback from folks based on cultural beliefs.

Pete Slauson Mm hmm. Pete Slauson And we're just saying like, look, let's look at the older underlying biology. We're not monogamous as a species. Sorry, you know, we have a lot of jealousy. We have different mate guarding behaviors. We have, I say, different asymmetries in terms of how we select and attract our mates. But people are just putting these cultural overlays on top of it and they believe that's ground truth and it's not. It's just what your tribe taught you essentially. So let me give you a few examples now. You'll alternatively like probably love or hate these statements, but let me just give you a few. Men are all violent rapists. Women should be financially

independent. It's the fault of the patriarchy. Gender is a social construct. Women should be submissive to their husbands. Virginity is a tool used to control women. The nuclear family is the foundation of civilization. The wage gap proves that women are oppressed. Child-free living is a selfish lifestyle. Religion should guide all relationship decisions. I mean, you see, that's the soup we're swimming in, right? And some of that stuff is gonna piss you off. Some of it you're gonna say, right on, I believe that. But the one thing they have in common

is they're all cultural beliefs. Also, you know, the thing a lot of them have in common, victimhood competition mentality. That's really a major driving force between all this copium of delusion and cultural whatever. That's kind of why I like your book. Your book basically, to my understanding, takes us back to, look, biology doesn't change over eons of time.

It doesn't change over eons of time. Not very much. It doesn't at all. In fact, you can see why we evolved to be the way we were. We have the most, like we were just talking about, we learn culture, and culture is a very powerful thing. It's our kind of super secret weapon, if you will, as a species. But that also means our brains have to be formed over 25 years. That's when your brain is sure, which means we

have to take care of children for longer, which means a woman giving birth to a human is taking the biggest risk of any mammal on the planet. And so she's got to pick the right partner or she's screwed from an evolutionary standpoint. And so women evolved to essentially expect the best for men. Men evolved to perform and strive and provide for women. And again, that's just cartoonish generalization. But denying that makes it very, very hard to form relationships.

Because before we used to need each other. And I mean that literally, they continue life. And now it's just like this once like, well, what do I need a man for? I mean, I got my own house, I got my own, you know, career, I got money. So we're trying to create relationships based on want and those are much more fleeting and much more brittle. That's, that's the fundamental problem. Yeah. I mean, I think I heard someone talk about this, might've been Rola Tomasi, but they talked about how up until the sixties, I think there's somebody else I heard say

this on Sam Harris's show, I can't remember who, but basically up until the sixties, we lived in a world where we kind of had to have two people who survived. And people weren't really into love because the availability of finding love or caring about love, it was more about survival really. Exactly. Yeah. Pete Slauson A lot of our parents were trying to find love. They were just, they were just trying to, I don't know. Pete Slauson Well, the whole notion of romantic love or chivalry, that came from,

you know, like France in the 1300s. And basically, it was a scam by men. It was like, if I can't offer you real resourcing and provisioning over the long term, I'll just love bomb you. I'll just love bomb you. I'll open doors for you. I'll throw my jacket in the puddle so you can walk across it. All of that stuff is basically saying, my devotion can substitute for my ability to actually provision for you. But somehow it's made its way into our popular culture where feeling in love should be a

consideration. And like you say, it was needs that kept us together. It wasn't wants or... So, I think that that whole... I mean, I open doors for women, I pay for dinner, that's not the point, but it's basically a strategy developed by men that couldn't actually provide resourcing. Pete Slauson Yeah, men are the true magics. The... Oh, the one thing I started to tell you was one of the problems we have is, and this is a big problem I see in the marketplace, is we now have a lot of these women that were told by feminism to put off their, their having a family for a career.

So now I'm seeing all these desperate women in the market that are in their forties and only have them in my group and they're going, I really need a man right now. I need a man. I'm 40, 45. Pete Slauson I'm finally ready. I'm finally ready for the real thing. Pete Slauson And who wants to have three kids with me? And I'm like, honey, men date down, women date up, and that's hypergamy. And your problem is, is the men that if you're 40, 45, I believe I have some of my group who's 45, I believe there's people in 45 and 50s in my group that are trying to have a family now.

And, and so they have two problems. One, men date down. And most of the men that are at the 50s level, they've been through two divorces and two families. This is the hardest thing I have to try and get into women over 50 in my group. And 95% of the complaints and the problems with dating come from my 50 plus crowd in the group. In fact, we started evicting them to another group because I'm so over it. And part of it is, is, is men date down and women, you know, they kind of get really spoiled, high monkey branching all their life. If you understand the concept of monkey branching.

Pete Slauson Well, I do. I can give you some evolutionary reasons for it. But yeah. Pete Slauson Yeah, go ahead. Pete Slauson Yeah, well, so, so, you're absolutely right. So, first of all, let's talk about like dating in your 40s, 50s and 60s. Again, we're talking about dating like it's like this optional, nice to have cherry on our Sunday, right? The point of relationships was to stick around long enough to have viable kids that could in turn reproduce. That's it. Okay. That's the evolutionary

reason for it. So there's no such thing as a strong need to be in a relationship after 40, because the fertility window is slammed shut. Yeah. Men, like Anthony Quinn had his last kid at 83 and was recording messages for him so he could know what his dad was like. But men's sperm also get old and there's less chance of conception as you get older. But the point is that women's biggest value in the marketplace falls between 18 and 40. That's the window. So the thing is there's confusion because they'll still get offers of sexual stuff,

but not of commitment, not long-term resourcing. And so, it's a brutal, you know, wake-up call at that age, if you think that's when you're going to find good men. Like you said, they've already been divorced, they know what they're looking for. If they've been hustling and working hard their whole lives, all of a sudden a lot younger women are in in play. So usually at that mid-life crisis thing for men, it's a hard reset. They're going for someone younger because now they're taking a new... Pete Slauson Yeah, and a lot of guys, and a lot of guys too, because the divorce rate has become, you know, we have 90% of educated women, out

of divorces that are filed, if they're educated women that file them, 90% of them are filed by educated women. And it's 80% in general. So this goes back to that monkey branching thing that you were talking about. Yeah. Women initiate most divorces because women are looking for long-term provisioning. So the worst thing that can happen to you as a man is if you're, if you start going backwards financially, if you lose your job, if you have financial trouble, if you start going backwards financially, if you lose your job, if you have financial trouble, if you start treading water, because the woman is like,

okay, how do I find a better situation? So most women, when they quote unquote cheat, they're looking for a better provisioning situation, a backup plan. And so that's how they do it. Whereas men are afraid of paternity uncertainty, so they don't want physical infidelity from the women. The women don't want emotional infidelity from the men because that's how they do things.

They try to lock in somebody emotionally for longer term relationships. So that monkey branching is not sideways. It's like if the woman finds herself in a relationship on a down escalator, she doesn't have her man's full attention or resourcing, things like that. She will try to find somebody that's better and jump over to that. The, so in your, anyway, the thing that I was trying to get to was a lot of people don't factor, you know, the monk or branch all the other lives and they get spoiled. So what happens is, you know, they, I tried to date their, you know, people when I, when I first got to high school, I tried to date my fellow sophomores and they're like, no, fuck you. We're dating, we're dating seniors, because they have cars and they have jobs.

At least when they graduate school, then they have jobs. And I've always been, I can never date my age because women are hypergamous. And there's a reason for that. Like you say, you can't, I mean, don't hate the player, hate the game. That's the way biology evolved over all these years. But they're used to always being able to upgrade across most of their life. And one thing that no one tells women, because the women that I deal with right now, they've been filled with delusion from the makeup companies that they're going to still be the hottest 20 year old at 100 if they just buy Maybelline or whatever the fuck it is. They've been told by feminists to put off, they don't need no man, they put off as far as you can, you go

babe. And they've also been taught that if they acquire the assets that women look for in men, that men will be attracted to them. So, yeah, and that's, that is absolutely not true. I mean, one of the things we talk about, by the way, in the book, we have specific guides for men and for women to understand the other gender. So there's the insights, you know, like mindset stuff, there's strategies and there's tactics, but the thing you touched on, which is, you know, we tell this to in the women's guide, do not lead with your frickin resume or your LinkedIn profile. Okay, I don't care how boss baby you

are, whether you ride horses or have a Ferrari of your own for a man that does absolutely nothing other than maybe have him question that you're just a, is he just a nice accessory in your already full life? Flashing men's resourcing signals by women is not at all what you need to be doing. Pete Slauson Yeah. In fact, if you see – Jared Larson That turns men off. Pete Slauson Most men now know that if you have independent boss babe or independent

woman, we just go, hey, we're supporting your independence, left swipe. Jared Larson Yeah, and it's nasty because for men on the other side of it, like you say, women are looking for someone that's at least their equal or better. They're looking for their single best option. And so in effect, men, because they've lost status financially and so on, they can't compete anymore so they're becoming invisible. And you add a couple of more things to that and it makes it, women are getting really choosy for the wrong reasons.

Here's one. They are thinking that they have infinite optionality. Because when you're alone on your phone, swiping right or swiping left, you think that all these guys are ready to give you commitment. And that is a big mistake. Because again, they'll sleep with you,

but that doesn't mean that commitment is forthcoming. And then also men's approach, you know, men are like in a relationship, there are three essentially choices, the man chooses who to approach, the woman chooses whether to have sex with someone, and the man chooses whether to resource or continue that relationship. That's those are the kind of the decision points, right. So men are always going to make the approach, no question. But the

problem is with online, the approach has been turned up to 11, or actually 111. because it's so easy to just swipe right on someone. It's costless, you're not getting rejected. So women, they're like, have inboxes on these dating sites with hundreds of men in them, and they think they have all this optionality, when they don't. It's an illusion. Pete Slauson Yeah, I'm glad you addressed that because we call them the simps. I'm sure you addressed that because we call them the simps. I'm sure you're familiar with that term.

But they really gas women up. Like I've had women say to me, I'm 55 and I have all these young men in my DMs and they're all chasing me and offering me sex. So therefore, I'm a 10. And I'm like, no, you've alluded to this a couple of times. For women, the men that have value to them are the ones who can offer commitment to the high programming level they need or desire. Yeah. So the point is the man has to be doing at least as well as you.

So that already cuts out a bunch of men. And by the way, to make things even worse, if you're on the online dating apps, quality people, I hate to say this, but the best people aren't on those apps at all. Okay, because if you're the rich guy, you could have women on your yacht any day of the week. And if you're a super attractive, powerful, desirable woman, you're getting flown to Dubai or Paris for the weekend, why would you go have a beer with a guy in a local bar? So like the the people that

don't have attachment issues that are already kind of successful or desirable in the marketplace, they're not even on the app. So there's a lot of walking wounded on the apps too to make things even harder. Pete O'Reilly Oh, yeah. I mean, it's just basically hookup culture over there. The thing that surprised me is how big hookup culture has taken over dating. I didn't realize it was big until I started polling and spending the last two years in this giant dating group. And I actually was trying to find me a mate for the ride out.

I like to call it, you know, I'm 57, you know, I'm not getting any younger and I'm going to live to 150, but I'd like to have a woman for the past, the next 75 years, maybe just stick with one for a change. But anyway, the thing I keep alluding to is the monkey branching. And so, they can constantly move up. They hit a wall. And the one thing no one talks about is the, what do you call it, the existence wall, the living wall. So, men die at almost twice the rate of women throughout all of life. And early, yeah. Every 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, genetically, there's actually half as many men in your ancestor gene pool as women.

Women were the ones that were most selective. A lot of men never got to reproduce. That's another way of putting it from an evolutionary standpoint. And plus we do the hardest jobs. We do the jobs that have the highest risk. We have highest suicide rates, et cetera, et cetera. We carry, you know, women want us to lead the household and do all the things to carry. So a lot of that grinds us down.

And so not only do men by their 50s and 60s have probably two divorces under their belt at least, they've also raised maybe a couple of families. They're either broke from all the divorces or they're just done. They're just spent. They're just like, I'm not getting married again. I'm not doing relationships again. And a lot of times their bank is spent. So, you know, they are still paying off divorces, attorneys. They're still paying child support and alimony.

Many, you know, Bank of Dad never closes. I'm sure you know that, Ash. Oh, yeah. That's 24 seven. That thing's open till you die. That's one of the other reasons I don't have kids. But at the age of 50s, men start dying off in double digits. We hit the pedal all the way down. And so I can see this in the age groups of my dating groups, the feedback that we get from the thing. And literally they fall, there's like this cliff after 35 that men really start disappearing.

And you see this shift where there's more women in the market more than there are men, just by nature. And it depends on what state you live in and stuff like that. But urban, rural, those are different things too. But there's still a huge fall off of available men. So women that are holding out or women that are still looking for men in their 40, 45 plus fifties are finding, and they don't realize this because I've had this discussion and they really don't like it because it's reality and is that

they're just, aren't that available men like the men drop off and now you even have a... Or they're in committed relationships, you know, which you're more likely to be unless you're really damaged, you know, at that age. They hate it when I say this, but the wise women know this is coming because that's how biology works and they grab up all the good men. In fact, a lot of the noise that you hear in the marketplace is sabotaged to women on women. I mean, it really is.

Yeah, that's true. You just go ahead and wait, honey. You do that career thing. Oh, look at all these wonderful married men I can lock down. Well, you're busy doing that, honey. Yeah, because that's one of the recommendations we make for women is bet on the rise, not the prize. The women are waiting at the finish line to fuck the winners. Well, so is every other woman. Okay. So you have to catch the potential early and say, okay, look, this guy's better than he

was two years ago, better than he was five years ago. This is the trajectory. I'm going to, I'm not going to be waiting at the finish line. I'm going to get a better person now that has that initiative, that drive, whatever other qualities you're looking for. So yeah, I absolutely agree with that. But the way I look at it is this is the way to judge your value in the sexual marketplace.

For men, it's your ability to consistently get sexual experiences from women that you find attractive. For women, it is the actual number of commitments that you're getting for long-term relationships. Real commitments. Yeah, because women are confused. Every sim's saying you'll marry them. I mean, look, absolutely 50, 60 women look fantastic,

they're in great shape, they're going to Pilates, they got all this stuff going for them. There will be men that are willing to sleep with them, but that is not the same as an offer of long-term provisioning or commitment or even exclusivity and monogamy. And unfortunately, women get those confused because they don't see the sexual interest tapering off at all. Like you say, there's guys still throwing themselves at them, but they're not really getting those offers of longer-term commitment and that's what hits the wall.

Oh, it's the biggest complaint I get from women over 50. It got so huge, I had to finally cut it down and say, I'm not doing this anymore. We don't allow 50 plus in the group anymore. Hey, you're discriminating against people like me now. Actually we don't let 50 plus women in the group anymore. The problem we have was the menopausal Karens. The other thing that women don't factor, and this is a big fucking deal, is menopause. Menopause was biologically designed to tell women, it's time to get off the dating market

and go be a great matriarch. People can disagree with me on that all you want. No, actually, I completely agree. There's different stage and that's the culture transmitter, taking care of your kids, taking care of your grandkids. That's what elders are for, both men and women. Absolutely. Once you're done with mating, then you're a culture carrier and a support system for others. My grandmother was the greatest matriarch, feminine woman. I mean, she's the blueprint for what

I look for in a mate. Uh, and she was a grand matriarch. She wasn't chasing Chad dick at 50. She was, again, again, so you're, you're putting a lot of value judgments on it. I'll, I'll put it this way that the, the, the, the crossing curves that X I was talking about, women essentially, and this is an oversimplification, get their power handed to them. As soon as they're 12, sometimes they're getting attention from their classmates, their dads, their classmates, grandfathers, everyone. So that power is kind of handed to you and then you wield it effectively and then eventually it runs out and you go, oh shit. Right? And for men, again, you start out pretty worthless

and it takes you decades if you're working hard to level up to where you're a meaningful relationship option for high quality women. And so if you look at it from just a crossover, that's really the root of it is women's power is tied up with their fertility because again, it takes a long time to have kids and to raise them. So you're gonna do one at a time.

You want like the youngest partner you can find. And for men, it's the opposite. The woman is the choosy investor and she's gotta have one great bet on a man who's going to provision for a decade or two, that just means that the men have to be exceptional and aggressive and compete with each other and level up. And there's no shortcuts to that either. Going to the gym as a 20-year-old and getting bigger biceps, that physical attraction part's

not really what they're looking for. They're looking to see if you have a Rolex. And, and I, I, I have a rule. I want date over 40. I'm 57. I'm a, one of the three sixes. I'm the, I'm the guy everyone's screaming about. I'm sure you are too. Oh, you mean you got a six pack? No. So you're not the four sixes. I'm no, I'm not a four six. I'm a three six plus.

the four sixes. Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm not a four six. I'm a three six plus. I suppose that way. The, uh, uh, and so, you know, I open up the, I open the internet every day and I'm attacked. Literally there's just, there are billions of views, trillions of views probably, and billions of these videos that are out there where women are like, well, the good man and I deserve a high value man. And you watch the interviews of them and you realize you're a 1% man. I mean, I'm six two. I make over six figures plus.

I'm over six plus. I mean, Magnum Excelsior in the drawer for a reason. You know, I'm not fucking around because they made a big deal of this. So I'm like, wait, I'm a top, I'm a top percent man. And, and you'll see interviews with them and they think that we grow on trees, that there were just everywhere. No, like you said, there are, there are a lot of distortions with social media. That's for sure. There's also one more complicating thing that makes, uh, women, one of the things

that we talk about in the book that men really don't realize is women's primary concern, number one, first and foremost, above anything else, is safety. Safety from other men and also safety from you because of being physically weaker, women are 25% smaller by mass than men on average. So they're always subconsciously thinking about like, are you my worst dating nightmare? Is someone gonna find me dismembered in the trunk of your car, right? So the stranger danger is very real and the huge disadvantage that men have is that they start out on dating sites as strangers. So they're automatically graded two, three points on a 10 point scale lower just by being

unknown to the woman. Pete Slauson Plus, it doesn't help to feminize and demonize men with a lot of this illogical stuff. You mentioned it earlier where… Pete Slauson Well, that comes from both sides. You got the red pill community, you got the Andrew Tates and other assholes like that on the men's side. And I think the problem is with the demonization, it's really, it's thinking of it as a zero sum game, that women and men are competing and they don't need each other.

No, they're holding each other to a higher standard and that's the evolutionary game. We sort into equal value pairs basically, just like your junior high lunch tables, the popular kids sit together and the nerds are off in the corner with each other. So that's how it is. In fact, it's very unlikely that you're going to have some kind of a pretty woman moment

where you're completely out of your league because then jealousy kicks in and mate guarding and that makes that relationship unstable. So chances are water seeks its own level and you're going to pair off with someone roughly like you. So it's only the distortions of our self-assessments and how good we think we are that are causing those problems. Yeah. One of the, in the polling that I've done in my group, everyone thinks they're a 10.

Like I'm not shitting you. I've had 60 year old women come up to me that are very far from a 10. And when I tell them the 10, an eight to a 10 is a Victoria's Secret model. I ran, I run modeling agencies and I know modeling. I just reopened my modeling agency photography. An 8 to 10 is a Victoria's Secret model. She is paid to have a modeling contract. So when I get people that come up to me and go, I'm a 10, I'm like, are you on the cover

of Elle or something or Vogue or something? What's going on there? And so there's this delusion in the marketplace of overvaluations, much like we talked about with Sims. But part of the, I guess the thinking is, is the fantasy of women is the beauty and the beast. It's the Cinderella story, which is the one you mentioned earlier, that they'll meet the Richard Gere character in Pretty Woman, which is basically Cinderella redone.

And women have this chase that feeds into their head, that their values are reflected by who will accept them. But it's really interesting what's going on. The delusion in the marketplace. And one of the other challenges, I don't know if you get into this in the book, let me, let me finish on something too. We're dropping around a little bit. So one of the problems I have is I love women, but I can't date masculine women or I can't date masculine women. And I can't date women in menopause. I've tried that. It is very hard. Women's sexual desire drops off. Their bodily functions for that matter

drop off in that regard. You have Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde, I've had a woman in my car where on a date, she was in the middle of winter in Utah, she said, hey, I need you to turn on the air conditioning, I'm having a hot flash, I need you to open all the windows too. That's not fun when you're getting to know somebody. Now, I have a lot of married

friends like probably you do, they're in the 50 year range. They're going through their own hell course in loving their woman and helping her through menopause. It is hard. They are holding on bare fucking knuckles because it's hard for a woman. She's changing and emotionally and chemically and stuff. And the other thing that, you know, because I have women bring my balls all the time about this, especially in the dating group. I can tell you some interesting stories, Tim. You should hit me up before you write your book. Hit me up before you write your second book. But I've been like, why do you date 30 and younger, you know, rarely 40 over,

but it usually bites me in the ass. And I'm like, because I want a woman who's feminine. I want a woman who's soft. Well, okay. So, so, so let's talk about that. Yeah. So yeah, again, things that people don't want to hear, but from a evolutionary psychology perspective.

So the more and I wrote about both how men and women attract and how men and women select each other. Those are two different things. So for women, attraction is obvious. It's largely physical. If the man isn't going to make that first approach based on your physical presentation, nothing happens. So it's here we're getting fertility, waist to hip ratios. I mean, even blind men want a 0.7 waist to hip ratio. So it's not something that modern culture created. It's just about whether you can pump out a bowling ball headed baby through those hips. So they're just looking for again, will my kids survive kind of thing. So it's essentially women's attractiveness

and women will invest a lot in looking attractive and that's actually appropriate. Again, it's like no amount of uglifying yourself or wearing baggy jeans is going to change that. That's what men are going to want to look for. And they, so we, you know, our ideal superpowers, x-ray vision, so we can just see what's under whatever clothes you're wearing, right? This is physical. You can at the gym. Well, that's true. But, but for women, it's, uh, there, there's the things they want in men are not as obvious. Yes, there's that genetic component and the strong jaw and wide shoulders, but they're primarily looking for, again,

long-term provisioning initiative, a certain aggression. And I mean that in the sense of being able to act effectively in the world and having that power on an ongoing basis. And so it's hard to tell what your lifestyle is by looking at a guy. It's hard to tell whether you have initiative. It's hard to tell what your 401k balance is. So women have to do a lot of due diligence and the shortcut for them is to actually see

if other desirable women are around a man. Because that means, oh, there's something I'm not seeing here. So one of the ways that women kind of queue in is on other women's behavior. So, if a man is around other desirable women, they automatically upgrade him. Pete Slauson Yeah. It's a, women move as a shoal, like a shoal of fish. Orion Teraband did a really amazing analogy on this to explain what women want.

And Jesus, it haunts me. I'm like, I wish I would have seen it a million years ago. Yeah, by the way, his book, I have it right here. Oh, do you? Orion Teraband's book, The Value of Others. Did you read it? Yeah, of course. Yeah. He looks at it strictly from kind of a sexual economics. That's what the field is called, kind of utilitarian standpoint. We cover some of that in our book as well in Primal Dating, but we primarily look at

it from an evolutionary psychology viewpoint. But I mean, it all lines up. I mean, the facts are undeniable. Yeah. I mean, women don't hold meetings and get together. I mean, maybe they all read Vogue or Elle magazine or one of the fashion magazines. I mean, that's usually what they do. They buy all the magazines off the thing, but they tend to move together and it's for safety

because women are highly insecure. Yeah. Well, again, not highly insecure. They're risk averse because they have so much more at stake. And this is what I was getting back to what I was saying earlier. Women are going to move as a group and have very narrow norms across all kinds of behaviors because the safety of the herd. Whereas the men who have to stand up and compete and be noticed are willing to take a lot more risks. That means you might have a slam dunk one time and a face plant the next time.

So there's a much wider variability in terms of risk taking among men. So women have bred us to be risk takers and we've bred women to be choosy investors that are just going to hold back and hang with the pack and make sure they're not exposed. Pete Slauson Did you get a chance to delve into the Chad phenomenon and what's going on with the Chad chasing? 95% of women are chasing the top men and throwing sex at them. Did you delve into any of that? Well, yes. So again, that's hypergamy at work.

Five to 10 to 15% of the top guys are getting all the action. And ironically, if you're having NBA star level of access to women, why would you ever settle? Why would you ever take away optionality? Here's the dirty little secret that people don't talk about. Men work their whole lives in order to have sexual optionality. Here's the dirty little secret that people don't talk about. Men work their whole lives in order to have sexual optionality. That is the motivation for almost all of men's behavior, period. And so once you reach that optionality, why would you

put it in a box? Oh, yes, you're so perfect. You're just the one woman. There's really nobody like you. And I'm going to be exclusive to you forever and ever, amen." It's like, it's the same as younger women batting off men with a stick because they're getting approached all the time. It's the same level of power that some men get later in life. But to ask them to give it up is just like saying, no, don't be a choosy, beautiful young woman. Pete Slauson I'm at that point now most of my successful friends are we're sitting there going I worked my whole life blood sweat and tears. You didn't want to talk to me for most of my life That's right. Those of you gals who were above me and uh, or at my age and you know, you you thought you were the prize

Now i'm the prize Everyone wants me and in fact if anything if anything, like I said, the last two years all I've dated is 30. I think I dated 150 and regretted it. And well, I didn't date her. It was a coffee. But I got to see pretty good. And one of the challenges women have right now is finding masculine men. That's the other massive problem that I hear complaints from. I can't find men who are masculine. I can't find men who want to date. And me too, and a lot of these other complications, women screaming online, don't approach women, all this sort of riffraff.

And then over the last 50 years, there's been a movement to feminize men, to emasculate them, to... I've had people say that on the show. I don't think it's as deliberate like that, but I think that there's these huge shifts. And again, I don't take sides on this. I can see the asymmetries. I can see what's causing them and the distortions in modern society, for sure. I think that you're absolutely right in the sense that men are being socialized differently. And that is primarily because, again, in our ancestral world, what would happen? You'd be a 12, 13-year-old, you get initiated by your uncles and your dads, and they teach you what it means to be a full-fledged man.

You'd be spending your time around other adult men. What happens now? For my kids, I go to my office, my home office, but still, you know, I come back eight hours later and I binge watch Netflix on the couch. They're not really spending time with me or apprenticing with me. So like our men are being socialized primarily by female teachers all the way up through their education and their fathers are absent. I mean, here's a scary stat stat 90% of incarcerated men grew up without a father figure Yeah, that tells you what the value of men is and why they're needed, but it's just not happening

So again, I don't look at it as some feminist agenda But it's just the reality that men are finding are struggling and I think that up with women shouldn't mean down with men I certainly agree with that. In fact, we find is there's a lot less support. You can have a women's entrepreneur group, but God forbid you have a men's entrepreneur group to help them succeed. That's like taboo these days. So I just need a lot more,

like I'm part of the mankind project. They did this men's initiation weekend about six years ago and sitting in a weekly men's circle ever since. Highly recommend that by the way to anybody, the Mankind Project. Pete Slauson Yeah, men need to get together. Jared Slauson Yeah, but men only spaces are just as essential as women only spaces, and women naturally create them, and men are told that they should just be tough and tough it out and go it alone. And that's what's causing a lot of problems.

Pete Slauson Yeah. So anyway, the data on the Chads is quite interesting. So, what I've been doing for my book is interviewing Chads. And I've been getting ahold of the DMs. And it's interesting to see, you know, you've talked a lot about how women are concerned about how they're, you know, they're, you know, they hold a lot more risk in having kids and being saddled with children, et cetera, and maybe the mate goes off because they didn't qualify the mate properly to be a long-term partner. But the opposite is what's happening in the real dating markets. You have women that have what they call their roster.

We used to have a roster back in the day dating markets. I mean, you have women that have what they call their roster. We used to have a roster back in the day for dating as men, spinning plates, things like that for pickup game. But now they have their own roster and they have four or five chads, at least three, two to three. And then they have their sneaky link, Chad, the one they can run to. There's women that go on dates and they want to have sex because they had a great date and they'll send the one guy home and they'll go to the Sneaky Link. I sit in Chadville all day long and we sit and share DMs and everything else. It's extraordinary to watch what women throw themselves at. If you think that they're risk averse, they're

risk averse because there's one egg and they pretend to be risk averse when it comes to long-term relationships. But the sex they're having is fucking insane. When you figure that 88% of men are dating, 95% of women are chasing the top 1% of men and having sex with them. That's a lot of women having sex with one guy. By my account, it's sometimes hundreds of women that men are going through, these top chats are going through every year, if not monthly. And we're seeing explosion now in the sexual disease market because of it. Utah had 800% increase in sexual transmitted disease across the nation. It's become an epidemic.

I've had girls on Tinder, let me know that they have the HPV one or two virus. And you're like, what the fuck? They disclose it, thank God. At least the honest ones do. I think you kind of have to with the laws now. But it's kind of extraordinary because we talk about this how women are very careful. We're not seeing that in the Chad market. No, no, women are very careful to whom they'll consider for long-term commitment. So again, so one of the things is, so to make things even more complicated, there's adaptive stuff

from evolutionary psychology says we have short-term and long-term eating behaviors. In short-term, women are looking to upgrade genetics. So mid-cycle, when they're ovulating, they prefer more rugged men, the alphas. Okay, and that's who they're going to go after to get a genetic upgrade. And then they want to go snuggle and get food and shelter and provisions from the long-term stability

provisioning guide. So that happens also, but because we have such a high degree of jealousy in humans as a species, you know, uncertain paternity is definitely part of what formed us as a species, but only about 1% of people are raising someone who's not their kid, 1% of them. It's really not that high. What we have is like jealousy is super high and that prevents this kind of behavior of, you know, like sneaking off and screwing an alpha on the side. Well, one of the problems too is they're alone.

So I've had a lot of women give me this look that it's kind of a look that I got from a heroin date one time. I was on a date with a girl and she was a beautiful young woman. And she told me that she was addicted to heroin over the first day coffee date. Pete Wow. That's quite a topic for a first date. Pete It was quite a topic for a first date, but I think, thank God she brought it up at that time. And her girlfriend had gotten her into it. And I mean, these are young, these

are like 20 year olds. And I don't know, maybe I just have a bias that 20 year old people should be living their best life and they should be into heroin. But I can see if you're into heroin at 50, because I'm probably ready to go into heroin for all I've put up with for it. But don't do that folks. Yeah, please don't do that. Get help. But she had this look in her eye when she talked about quitting heroin, because she tried to quit a few times. And the soulless, you could tell that it had a hold on her soul that was just insane. And so a lot of women now, they have this faux, you know, what you've talked about, this faux attention to validation. And it used to be from hundreds of men, but it used to be,

they got that from one man and that completed them. But social media and the social media apps, the standing apps, they've created this hyper insanity of attention and validation. Well, the way I look at it is different. So again, so if men are looking for sexual opportunity and women are looking for resourcing, again, gross if men are looking for sexual opportunity, and women are looking for resourcing, again, grossly speaking, what we evolved for, so there are these pale internet substitutes for each. For men, that's porn. Okay, I can have sex with the hottest tens, anytime, in any position, maybe three or four of them at a time, and, you know, and sexual variety and no consequences, and I don't have to provision any of them. Okay, so a lot of men go down

that, that porn rabbit hole. For women, it's the opposite. I don't need a million dollars from one man, I can get $1 from a million OnlyFans. And so they're out there, jumping around in their lulu lemons and pretending they're doing yoga with their camel toe and all this stuff. But they're getting essentially provisioning from men without having to offer them the sex or the relationship part. So both are getting these kind of pale shadow substitutes and that actually makes real relationships even less likely to form. That's the unfortunate

part. Yeah. And then women keep their porn in their head. And one of the problems that we have is, I mean, this is, we have, I don't know, what, 500 romance novels that have been on the Chris Fosha, maybe three or 400. It's become painfully aware that women keep their porn in their head. And in doing so, they have their own- What do you mean by keep their porn in their head? I'm not sure I understand. Women keep their porn visually in their head. They visualize and keep their stories in their head. They don't have to have visual porn.

It's all in their head. That's why they read romance novels. And some of those romance novels, I mean, if you've ever read, what is it, 50 Shades of Grey or any of those other different things? They keep it in their head. That's why, that's why for some guys who aren't aware, the reason she wants the lights off and the reason, so she can imagine she's making love to somebody else. Uh, and that's the reason she has her eyes closed. I'm going to question that a little bit. Uh, you know, question all you want.

Well, no, no, no. So, so you're reducing it to the physical act. And one of the things- No, I'm not reducing it to the physical act because they put the emotionality- No, no, no, but I just want to broaden it out a little bit. So let me try this. So one of the things we talk about in the book is that women have a plot line. And you're absolutely right in the sense of it's every romance ever written, which by the way, you'd rather get beaten with a ball peen hammer than read, am I right? Like men don't read romance novels because they're women's plot line and it has five acts. And the first is, you know, find somebody that, you know, is

hot and attractive, okay? Two, determine if they're flaky or not and if they can be long term provisioning. Three, lock them in because you want exclusive access to them and you don't want them spreading their resources around. And then the last act is essentially surrender. And this is what women really want, to have this safe male containment. I don't mean surrender as in like subservience

or walk three steps behind me or any crap like that. I just mean belonging to something to feel safe inside of a family or a community. And that's when women and men really open up and that's that final stage. So women have all these like prerequisites. They have a whole plot line. So she's also gonna test your commitment.

That testing never ends as men find out because she's like, is your interest waning? Is the amount of resources, whether it's your time or attention or money that I'm getting, is that variable they're going to continue to test because they're in the long-term provisioning game and testing is just part of that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. To prove my point earlier, when men self-love, shall we just say that so we don't get the YouTube marks? Uh, when, when men self-love, we have to watch porn when women self-love shall we just say that so we don't get the YouTube uh marks uh when we when men self-love we have to watch porn when women self-love they it's all in their head and that's why romance novels and stuff and romance novels gaslight women up too they create a lot of delusion they create this perfect thing no question and i've talked to so many women who are like on the cover yeah and and the guy's perfect and the other thing too is he's a 10 in every single fucking story.

And she's a four, three maybe in reality. So the porn is, that's not the porn porn. That you can get through Richard Gere guy. Like, absolutely. So by the way, so women's selection is actually based on two independent axes. One is attraction, and the other is provisioning. And we talked about this in the book, we call it the diamond of women's desire. So if you're low attraction, low provisioning, you're invisible. Okay, if you're high attraction, low provisioning, you're the bad boy. We hope you'll be able to provision us later. But if that doesn't materialize, you

know, that's not good enough. If you're high provisioning, low attraction, that's the friend zone. And most men hate ending up in there. And it's only at the top of the diamond where you have Prince Charming, which is high provisioning and high attractiveness. But like you say, the competition for those is so fierce

that you're not gonna land that guy. And so again, I think one of the things- Yeah, because he's not gonna settle either. No, he's not gonna settle. He's not even gonna want exclusivity. It's not a matter of settling. I have the three sixes, I'm 57 years old. I'm not settling and I'm ugly.

I'm dating 30 year olds. But there was something I wanna speak to what you were saying there. But yeah, it's interesting how they're behaving in complete opposite of that when it comes to the chat chasing I mean there there's little to no discretion other than the guy is hot and he's got a Masculine looking body and that's kind of what they key in on so what they're a lot of what they're doing now is they see the masculinity is a guy on steroids and

That's unfortunate now., it is more visual. So men are obviously highly visual. So for online dating, we're looking at their profiles. The advice we give men in the men's guide, one of the tactical things is you do have to get your appearance in shape. That's not optional anymore because you're being mediated through this visual medium.

To a certain degree. Yeah, so if you add that six pack to the rest of your stuff, then you'll truly be in that 1%. More money, and I suppose, yeah, for provisioning. No, no, I'm saying like attractiveness, both in terms of your charisma, your game. Men have to work at two things, their ability to approach women and enter into relationships and the provisioning. You both have to have kind of a career trajectory or a fame trajectory and a personal game trajectory. Those aren't

optional. You need both. Pete Slauson Yeah. I've lived my whole life with one of my friends is Ron Rice. We used to send a lot of models to Hugh Hefner. I could never hang out personally with Hugh Hefner, but I learned a lot from him and You know, I've seen the parties in Miami's in the boats I mean I I've seen 60 year old guys that have money That have plenty of models eight to tens the Victoria's Secret models usually run around with them and they have access I've seen the most fattest ugliest

Milius oldest baldest. Oh, hey, now about that bald comment. Be careful. I don't want to hear that stuff. I'm not saying it's a bad thing because I'm fat too. Or no, I think you're skinny, Tim. Well, I'm not skinny, but you are. I've seen these men, top men covered in 20-year-old women smothering them, just chasing them endlessly. You can go on any gold, what is it? I don't want to say gold there because it makes it sound bad, but you can say gold sugar daddy sites. And so it's kind of interesting how women are behaving. One of the

problems that women have right now is because of the emotional damage they're picking up from the chats and the sneaky links and stuff, it's creating a lot of damage. And you're picking up from the chats and the Seekie links and stuff, it's creating a lot of damage. And you can see that in the market. I can see, if I go through, I can go through Facebook and tell you who's, who's, who's got problems. You can just look at the photos, the photo, there's like dead giveaways. You can see the photos. But by the way, when you told me, it reminds me of this meme I saw, I had two identical pictures of like this big fat ugly guy with this beautiful woman in a bikini on the beach, right? And so the caption on the first one said, why men should get an education, right? And then there was an identical picture right below it

that said, why women should get an education. So you don't want to end up with that guy. why women should get an education. You don't want to end up with that guy. Pete Slauson I mean, it's a necessary thing. I mean, like I said, one of the reasons I can date down and get away with it is there's so few masculine men in the marketplace. Those men have become so feminized, so simplified, and the simps really destroy the market. That's one of the things I've been finding. Pete Slauson I think you have to be. what you need is genuine confidence and a sense of mission or purpose in your life and look like you're having fun going in that direction. That's what women are, that's part of that physical attraction.

It's not just physical, it's also charisma, leadership qualities, initiative, things like that all go into that attraction part, not the provisioning part. So I think you're absolutely right. You need that and it comes out, but it's not so much, a lot of it is energy. It's playfulness, it's confidence in a natural way. There's a lot of game into it too, because one of the problems you have is that emotional damage I talked about means you've got to come over a wall of damage. One of the challenges that social media has done and in my opinion, it's destroying women. It's destroying men too, but women more so, they're

susceptible to it because they're emotional, not logic reason-based. We can look at it and go, this probably isn't good, but the attention and validation that women seek is just on steroids, on social media. And that's what I was thinking about, the only fans, you know, and that stuff. There's a dopamine addiction to it. And really what we're looking at is a huge amount of dopamine fans. And when you're used to getting 40 to 50, good mornings, good evening, you're the most beautiful person in the world. I mean, it would happen to men if it happened to us, it certainly happens to the Chads, where you begin to really buy into that because you hear it all day long and you live on attention and validation, it's a coin in the realm in the girl world as Rolla Tomasi would say. And it's really hard to downgrade after that to one man, one man's dopamine hit for giving validation to him.

It's really hard. And guys really have to amp up a game where I have to amp up game to deal with somebody that I know has a massive body count. This is the first time in history where women have a higher body count than men on average. And especially, geez, in the Gen Z section, I mean, they're doing triple digit, what is it? Hot Girl Summer shit, where they're running up triple digit body counts of men they're having sex with in their 20s. girl summer shit where they're running up triple digit body counts of men they're having sex with in their twenties.

Well, I'm not saying that on average. That sounds pretty extreme to me, but I think the number of sexual partners in the US over a lifetime is nine for men and four for women. I don't think that average is- I think it's old data. I think it's old data. And women aren't going to tell either. That's the one thing you have to do.

I mean, any woman who tells you what her body count is, you times, times three. I mean, you're talking to somebody, dude, I'm in the triple digits of dating. I power dated through the nineties and the two thousands. I've dated a lot. And then he didn't help out on a modeling agency for six years. I've, I've lived the, you have your life updated twins. I've, I've seen it all. These are factors that are going on right now and I don't think they're measured. I

don't think anyone really has done a study on them. The only study you can do is watching TikTok and Instagram and what these girls are doing and then you can see it. Like I said, I see it in the Chad chats. If you really want to study this, get a hold of Chad DMs and you will have a fucking awakening about what's going on in dating like nothing else. Oh no, it's very clear. Like I said, the competition for the top men is hotter than it's ever been. And about at least the bottom half of men are getting zero play these days. That's pretty much one of the effects of the distortions we're seeing. That's for sure. of the effects of the distortions we're seeing, that's for sure.

Pete Slauson Yeah. And the dating numbers and quoting where the hundreds, most of the hookup culture is going on in the 20s. They're picking up massive emotional damage. And so, you have to now play games and that's what a lot of the Red Pill community is trying to do. Red Pill community is a praxeology, it's just trying to explain women's nature to men and... Pete You know, I think it's, again, it's operating from an exploitation standpoint. I don't agree with extremism on either side, whether it's feminist or Red Pill stuff. Like I said, I'm just, so you can have your beliefs about it, you know, again, about body

count, about slut shaming, whatever, you know, those are all cultural concepts. There are certain reasons why those things exist. Pete No, I wouldn't say those are cultural concepts. Let's not dismiss that. That's a biological thing, Mincy. Mincy No, no, no. What I'm saying is if you actually look at the biology without putting your value judgments on top of it, that's my problem.

It's like, it's good to exploit women and if they're dumb enough to screw me, then by the dozens, then that's great. Okay, that's a value judgment. Should you try to maximize your sexual opportunity? Yes, but there's a point in which men also want to have long-term relationships because without provisioning for your child, it is unlikely to survive because children are so fragile and take so long. So if

men, they have this Madonna whore complex where you don't want the high body count, but at the same time, the woman you married is perfect, there's a reason for that because there's a tension between trying to spread your seed and at the same time, really deeply invest in your own children, as long as you're sure they're your own children. So there's, what I'm saying is there's tug of wars and things are not as like just black and white as people are making them out to be. Oh, definitely. And then people have different blueprints from childhood, relationships and unresolved trauma.

That's the big thing in the marketplace. You know, and like I said, there's some women that they've been run through so much with the Chads. I mentioned the heroin thing. I mean, like I said, I've had women say to me, Chris, I'm just so lonely. I just need a man and I go with the Chad. It's like, you're not really supposed to be doing that. Pete Slauson Well, it depends on what your goal is. Because so, one of the things is, this is throughout is, there's always been kind of VIP access, like the tech bros, you know, the movie stars, the sports, you know, stars, they can have lots of women and, and that's not at all atypical

because again, from a survival standpoint, from an evolutionary psychology standpoint, you have this, it's better to often be the second woman of a well-resourced man, not exclusive to him, than it is to be with a mediocre man. And that's been throughout history. In fact, in Islamic societies, most of them, it's still legal to have multiple wives, and that's a perfectly rational choice. So, these women are saying, like, I'd rather be his third or fourth of a really powerful man, whatever powerful means, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Pete I would argue that it's not the best scenario for women to be in that concubine situation. Pete It depends on their choices and what their other options are.

Pete It depends on their choices, but I understand the miserability that's going to go on the other side. So, I'll give you an example. I've witnessed it firsthand with polygamy here in Utah. So, when I grew up, we all knew polygamous. We all lived with polygamous. I've dated polygamous women, my business partner, lived with polygamous women. It's not the funnest fucking experience in the world. No, but again, that's because there was a need. And so like, given your choices in your small town, would you rather be the- Sometimes it's not a need though. Sometimes it's a social program. You know, you grew up in a polygamous family, so you're stuck in that sort of thing or religious thing.

Well, religion is a whole nother ball of wax. I really don't want to open that one up. So I guess you give people tools in the book on maybe how to date better, be better and all that good stuff. Well, I'd say it's even broader than that. It's about how to understand the other perspective. So the book is broken up into four main parts. One is the evolutionary psychology stuff. Then there's like the modern dating hellscape and all the distortions based on our current culture.

And then we have a guide for men and a guide for women. And each of those, like I said, has mindset insights to change strategies as well as tactical stuff. So, but all of it is based on the evolutionary psychology. So we're, so again, going back to this idea of culture and some of the things you've thrown around, even the notion of chads or body count or things like that, those are cultural things, not that they're not tied into evolutionary psychology, but we're looking at the level where Lemur and I wrote about, is it universal across all societies, across all time? That's the stuff we care about,

because that's our species level programming. And so we're just throwing off the cover so you can look at that, and it should make your relationships, and not just dating, but your long-term relationship, better as a result, once you understand what we evolve for. So that's, that's our hope. It's all cavemen cave woman shit. Like it's a lot.

And again, evolution, but you know, has effectively stopped, but cultural, you know, changes are just snowballing and getting faster and faster, but it doesn't change our basic wiring. Yeah. Uh, and I think you, I think you've alluded to this a couple times. Is the book in two sections, like one for women, one for men? David Linde Well, like I said, it's got four parts. So, the first part is understanding the evolutionary psychology, jealousy, bonding, what love is, you know, the chemical con game, we call it, you know, how people attract and select the

uncertain paternity, things like that. Then we talk about distortions of the modern world and of dating social media, things like that. And then we have a guide for men and a guide for women. And we hope that people will read both guides to understand the perspective of the other side and what they evolved for as well. Yeah, I mean, understanding human nature is really important to this.

Yeah, and then you mentioned my previous book, Unleash Your Primal Brain. That's kind of an overview of evolutionary psychology that's very accessible as well. And so, like, you know, you've drawn a lot of wisdom from your own life experience. And this is, like, I find evolutionary psychology to be a really, really powerful foundational thing because it helps explain so much of human behavior. So I'd rather not focus on the little cultural boogers and artifacts thrown up in this moment. I'd rather have these universals that I can fall back on because that's what I consider

to be wisdom. The more broadly applicable something is, the wider range of circumstances I can use it in. And to me, that's what the name of the game is at this point. Pete Slauson The challenge is those social aspects that sick experiment has been trying to overthrow this biology that we speak of for the last 60 years. David Sinclair Yeah, if the culture clashes with the biology, the biology wins.

Pete Slauson The biology does win, but sadly, there's a lot of things that are impacting as we've talked about. So, as we go out, give people your dot coms, Tim, where can people find out more about you? Tim Asch Yeah, again, if you just – my personal website is timasch.com. My co-author, drlimoregotlieb.com, but the book website is primaldating.com. That's an easy one. There you go. And you can get it on Amazon as a paperback or an ebook on Kindle. So primaldating.

I'm going to get that book. So my, what is he reading? This is the version of last time he read 50 shades of gray. I walked like, all right, thank you very much for coming to the show, Tim. We really appreciate it. Oh, absolutely Chris. It was my pleasure. Thanks for the conversation and your own direct experiences. Oh yeah. You have a few stories. Oh my God, dude. It's a wonder I haven't written 20 books on it. I probably would could have back in the day when I remember most of it, but uh,

yeah, yeah. I want to modeling agency that'll fucking wreck you, uh, order of the book, folks, wherever fine books are sold, primal dating, the unflinching evolutionary psychology guide to modern relationships, June 23rd, 2025 biology does not change folks over you on some time, uh, and you're being lied to and delusioned in a lot of ways with what's going on or social epic thing, in my opinion. Uh, so B be wise, be wise. Uh, you know, it's all caveman cave woman shit when it comes down to it. Study human nature.

Uh, we'll tell you everything you need to know. Of course, there's a lot of people don't want you to do that. Thanks so much for tuning in and go to good reads.com forces, Chris Foss, linkedin.com fortress, Chris Foss, Chris Foss, one on the tick tock, Gid in. Go to good reads.com. Fortunately, it's Chris Voss, linkedin.com. Fortunately, it's Chris Voss. Chris Voss won the tick tock kitty and all those crazy places. The internet, be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time. Thank you, brother.