The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Proof of Corruption: Bribery, Impeachment, and Pandemic in the Age of Trump by Seth Abramson

Starting point is 00:00:00 You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Hey, we're coming here with another great podcast.

Starting point is 00:00:38 We certainly appreciate you guys tuning in. Be sure to go to all of our different channels. You can see the audio but video recorded version of this on youtube.com for just Chris Voss. You won't see much but you'll hear the great audio and of course be able to check out the book. You'll also go to the CBPN, refer the show to all

Starting point is 00:00:56 your friends, neighbors, relatives. That's Chris Voss Podcast Network. There's nine podcasts over there that you can take advantage of and listen to, etc, etc. You may find this recording on several of the channels that we have on there. You can also go to Amazon.com forward slash shop forward slash Chris Voss. You can see a list of all the books of all the great authors we've had on the Chris Voss show, and you can buy them all.

Starting point is 00:01:19 How about that? Or you can just buy one at a time, but buy them all and support all those great authors and thinkers. Today, we have a most brilliant author on the podcast, Seth Abramson. He's a former criminal defense attorney and criminal investigator who teaches journalism and legal advocacy at the University of New Hampshire. He's a graduate of Harvard Law School and the Iowa Writers Workshop. He's a political columnist at Newsweek and the author of 18 books. Holy crap, this gentleman knows how to write books, including the New York Times bestsellers,

Starting point is 00:01:56 Proof of Collusion and Proof of Conspiracy. His just-released book, this just came out today, folks, right off the presses hot and burning with all sorts of great information. The third entry in the proof series is entitled Proof of Corruption. This thing is pretty darn amazing. Welcome to the show, Seth. How are you? Good. Thank you for having me, Chris. You got it. Thanks for coming on. And congratulations. You got the book out today, and this is the third of the series. Give us some plugs of where people can find you got the book out today, and this is the third of the series. Give us some plugs of where people can find you on the interwebs in order to book.

Starting point is 00:02:30 Sure. So yeah, Proof of Corruption is out today anywhere books are sold. It's in hardcover. It's an e-book. It's an audio book. You can find me on Twitter at Seth Abramson, S-E-T-H-A-B-R-A-M-S-O-N. And my website is www.sphabramson.net. Awesome sauce. So as people should know, they should definitely follow you on Twitter because

Starting point is 00:02:53 you're a prolific thread tweeter and tweeter of all sorts of data and everything else. I mean, you're definitely a core news source and everything. How do you find the time to do that all day long? I want to put in there. Well, I mean, it is difficult. I'm a professor. I teach full time. But I have been an author since 1998, I guess, is when I started writing semi-professionally. And then professionally, as you mentioned, I have 18 books.

Starting point is 00:03:21 So, you know, you find the time. You learn how to fit it into your schedule and everything else that you're doing. I'm also a columnist for Newsweek. So I try to stay involved in a multidisciplinary way in many different fields at once. You know, that's what keeps me energized and excited. It's just amazing, your output. It's just awesome. And there's so much detail. So this is the third book in a three book trilogy series. There's a proof of conspiracy. How Trump's international collusion is threatening American democracy.

Starting point is 00:03:52 There is, I believe the first one was proof of collusion. How Trump betrayed America. And then there's proof of collusion or I'm sorry, proof of corruption, bribery, impeachment and pandemic in the age of Trump. Is there going to be a fourth book? That's unclear. There are no plans right now. I can tell you just writing these three over a period of 24 months, I mean, all told, it's 2,500 pages of epic nonfiction about Trump's foreign policy.

Starting point is 00:04:22 So we'll have to see whether there's another book in there. I don't know if there is, but I think this tells a pretty start to finish story about the first and perhaps only Trump term. And you go into extensive detail in these books. Tell us why you wrote these books, what motivated you, and give us an overview of what this newest book is about. Well, so among other things, I'm a cultural theorist at University of New Hampshire. And so I started writing about Donald Trump as a cultural phenomenon, obviously with a political component on the day that he announced his candidacy in June of 2015. At the time, I was a columnist for the Huffington Post. And so I sort of covered Trump as well as the Democratic primary in 2016. And once he was elected, I realized that there was simply so much news that it overwhelms us. I

Starting point is 00:05:25 think we've all had that experience. And so what I realized was what was really needed was someone to compile and curate and synthesize all the incredible major media investigative journalism that was being done in the US, around the world, frankly, articles from decades ago that had suddenly become relevant again, and put them into one nonfiction narrative so people could not be overwhelmed, but still get all the high nutrient content of newsworthiness surrounding every day of this presidency. So one of the standout stories or things that are in the book or themes that run through the book that wouldn't really stick out to the reader? Well, so I would put it this way.

Starting point is 00:06:06 So you have three books in the proof series. Proof of Collusion, 2018. Proof of Conspiracy in 2019. Proof of Corruption in 2020. If Proof of Collusion focused on the Trump-Russia matter that was partially addressed by the Mueller report, though the focus in Proof of Collusion in 2018 was actually more on the Mueller report, though the focus in proof of collusion in 2018 was actually more on the bribery side of things that was more looked at by the Senate Intelligence Committee. And if proof of conspiracy from 2019 was focused on Trump's pre-election

Starting point is 00:06:37 multinational collusion with Saudi Arabia and Israel and the UAE and Egypt over a multinational, very confusing, that's why Proof of Conspiracy is a very long book, energy deal that was being worked on in 2015 and 2016 by Michael Flynn and others. What proof of corruption is in 2020 is a focus on some countries that hadn't been looked at yet in the series, specifically the Trump-Ukraine scandal, Trump's collusion with China. And I know a lot of people who haven't heard about the Trump-China exchanges might wonder at that word collusion. But in fact, if you read the book, that is what happened. There was a quid pro quo between Trump and China. And then also Trump's dealings with the Israelis and the Emiratis, again,

Starting point is 00:07:25 though this time specifically over the question of Iran. And then finally, there's a lot of focus as well on Trump's dealings in Venezuela, and Trump's dealings with Turkey, specifically how they impacted what happened with the withdrawal in Syria that was so controversial within the last year, year and a half. And so you get essentially a whole new multinational focus in this book as compared to the other ones. And it's just extraordinary that you go into incredible detail on all the different events and how they're tied in. And this thing is like the most complex web of players and corruption.

Starting point is 00:08:04 And sometimes I'm just like, does trump know how much of this is going on or does he just send out these little minion soldiers and you know like david uh devin nunez and and giuliani and they they just go and they just create these whole giant detailed maps of of of crazy stuff and he just sits back in his office, I don't know, eats Big Macs and watches TV. Well, what I found in my research is exactly the same thing that we've heard from Michael Cohen over the last year and a half. That's consistent with my own discoveries researching Donald Trump's dealings

Starting point is 00:08:40 in 12 to 15 countries across the globe, which is that he understands the broad strokes of each quid pro quo that he is involved in. He knows what he will be getting in return. He knows what he will be giving. But what he does is he has intermediaries who conduct the business for him. And it's interesting that I mentioned Michael Cohen

Starting point is 00:09:00 because of course, one of the similarities we find in all of these courses of collusion is that Trump is using his attorneys to do this work. And then the attorneys hire agents who do further work. I think Trump's theory, it's pretty clear from my research, is that attorney-client privilege will shield him from any liability for what his attorneys are doing. And then what the attorneys do is they try to create legal relationships with the other end of the quid pro quo, so that that will be covered by attorney-client privilege, at least arguably. And that's the

Starting point is 00:09:30 theory of how Trump operates. But he does know what is going on. He just has a lot of people who are doing the work for him. You mentioned how many countries and people are involved in the trilogy. We're talking across the 2,500 pages of the proof series of hundreds of characters who show up in this book across every continent except Antarctica, going back decades. And frankly, an index of the full proof series, a condensed index would be about 65 pages long. The full index for the series would be well over 100 pages long. So this really has to be classified, and I understand that it will be,

Starting point is 00:10:09 and I want it to be classified as a new breed of book, a nonfiction epic that exclusively uses major media, reliable investigative reports, and cites every single one of them in an end note. A lot of people don't realize

Starting point is 00:10:24 that the Proof series comes with over 1,000 pages of end notes because I want to be transparent about my research, and I want people to know what I found and where I found it. That's definitely important, especially in today's world where they're always going, well, I don't know about this. So that's definitely important. I'm looking over some of the excerpts from the book. I'll just run

Starting point is 00:10:45 through them here. COVID-19 Trump and China, Trump and Turkey, Trump and Israel, black lives matter, Trump in Ukraine, AG Bill Barr, Trump, Iran, Eric Prince, Sean Hannity, and Rudy Giuliani. Uh, and like you mentioned, you know, if you've ever studied the mob, like John Gotti or anyone in the mob and how they use people and you know they like i say have intermediaries and stuff um basically that's the way trump runs his organization only he has the uh quote-unquote cleanliness of attorneys so you're just like well you know there you go um and it's just extraordinary how how to use like utilizes them and everything else.

Starting point is 00:11:30 What was interesting to me when you're talking about, I think it was in your prior book, you were talking about the Saudi power exchange where they're trying to make this deal to do nuclear reactors all over the Saudi Arabia world down there. And just all the players that are, it's almost like Donald Trump, they went, hey, man, we can make so much money off this guy. Like he just, he went from this small time little hood dealer of real estate properties to like suddenly this dude who's like, I can use the levers of the U.S. government to make me so much money and all my cronies and everybody else who wants to jump into the U.S. government to make me so much money and all my cronies and everybody else

Starting point is 00:12:06 who wants to jump into the pond? Well, you know, there's actually a quote in Proof of Corruption, Chris, in which an individual connected to the Chinese government says that the reason the Chinese actually want Trump to be elected in 2020, rather than as Trump's intelligence community is saying Joe Biden, is because, and there's a direct quote in the book about this, the Chinese know how to deal with Trump. They know how to get him to do what they want. And the answer, and this is the quote, is that you pay him. And that is basically the understanding every autocrat in the world has. The problem that we face in sort of tracking this is that the corruption is so vast, because Donald Trump really spends every day not working on the people's business, but working on his own business under the guise of being a president, that it's hard to, in real time, track everything he's doing and everywhere

Starting point is 00:12:55 that he's doing it with him, as well as his, you know, couple dozen intermediaries, and then the several dozen agents that those intermediaries have hired. One of the reasons why I think meta-journalism or sometimes called curatorial journalism was really important during the Trump era and particularly for this book series is you mentioned, for instance, that the book series covers COVID-19 and it covers the election. It covers the Black Lives Matter movement. And some might wonder, you know, how can this be incorporated into a book that's also talking about Ukraine, China, Venezuela, Israel, and so on. And the answer is that meta-journalism, this curation and synthesis of major media investigative reporting from reliable media outlets, allows you to actually write history in real time. And that's what I was

Starting point is 00:13:40 trying to do, Chris, with these books, is I wanted to find a new way to write a history book. And that is to write history in a reliable way as it happens by horizontally networking all these far flung sources. So the result is you end up with a book that's its longest chapter, frankly, is about COVID-19. And it's more information, even though Americans are saturated with the COVID-19 story, people who read this chapter, because the book is written almost like a thrilling report, will come away from this chapter knowing more about what actually happened in the lead-up to and in the midst of the COVID crisis than maybe even having read 100, 150 news stories. They'll get more in this book.

Starting point is 00:14:21 The excerpts that I read on COVID-19, I was going through the excerpts reading them read on the coven 19 i was going through the experts reading them and uh yeah holy crap the details uh what was going on in 2019 where they were preparing for you know any sort of pandemic and everything else and then you see the failures that go through it are extraordinary i wish i wish i don't know wish we could force trump voters to sit down and be forced to read this or something so that would be quite a things what were some of. What were some of the stories that surprised you in the book that stood out to you and you kind of went, holy moly? Well, you know, I would put it this way. I think that you have all these different courses of international collusion that Donald Trump was engaged in. In 2015 and 2016, there's that sort of era of collusion. Then there's the

Starting point is 00:15:06 courses of collusion, the quid pro quos that occurred during his presidency. And then there are those that are connected to the 2020 election. And many of these courses of collusion are ones that people have at least vaguely heard of. We know that there's a Trump-Russia investigation. We know there was an impeachment over Trump-Ukraine. We understand that there's some funny business going on, and there certainly is, between Donald Trump and China. But one of the things that I actually just tweeted about today is Trump-Turkey collusion, which will seem to a lot of people who don't necessarily follow events in Turkey as something that has to be, you might imagine, incredibly inconsequential. But in fact, there's a very powerful autocrat, Erdogan, who is the president of Turkey. And he is a good personal friend of Donald Trump, who Donald Trump does a lot of business in Turkey. And he has actually said, he said prior to his election, that he had, this is Donald Trump speaking, a quote, unquote, conflict of interest in setting US policy in

Starting point is 00:16:01 Turkey. And that has borne itself out with the most disastrous results. So when you ask what surprised me, it's that Trump-Turkey collusion has basically not been written about, even though it was in play in a significant and sort of scary way involving cyber intelligence prior to the 2016 election, even though it's been the most consistent course of collusion and the most reckless, per Bill Barr even, and John Bolton and many others during the Trump presidency. And now there's a lot of worry that it's going to show its head again because when Donald Trump pulled us out of Syria in order to please Erdogan, who wanted to invade Syria, a lot of bad things happened. Our Kurdish allies faced genocide, tens of thousands of ISIS fighters escaped, and we're now going to have to fight a second ISIS revival because Donald Trump agreed to pull U.S. troops out of Syria at the demand of his friend and effectively business associate, Turkish President Recep Erdogan, and U.S. soldiers were shelled by

Starting point is 00:17:07 the Turks. A lot of people don't realize this, that Trump's allies shelled our soldiers knowingly in Syria in order to force our soldiers to run away faster. And I think that would absolutely shock the conscience of most Americans, particularly in light of these new statements from Trump about him considering U.S. veterans losers and suckers. Do you think he does all these dirty – people always talk about how he loves all these authoritarian guys like Erdogan, the Chinese leader, Russia. I think he likes the Philippines guy.

Starting point is 00:17:44 I can't remember if they get along or not. And, and do you think he likes these guys? Cause they're just good at being during dirty deals with, they're just like, they're just like the best guys. Cause they're going to do their dirty deals with you. I think that that's about 50% of it, Chris. I think the other half of it is that he really does want to be them. He wants to have their situation. There's actually a quote in Proof of Corruption that comes from a longtime friend of Donald Trump's who he made the ambassador to Hungary. And those who haven't been following events in Hungary may not realize that it's run by another Trump pal, Viktor Orban, who now basically

Starting point is 00:18:20 has an autocratic government in the midst of Europe, really terrifying stuff going on there. And the US ambassador to Hungary says Donald Trump wants in the United States, what Viktor Orban has in Hungary, which is absolute power. Now that should terrify people, because this is not a Trump critic saying this. This is a longtime Trump friend, who says, I know him, and I know he wants to be in America, what Orban is in Hungary. And frankly, Trump has implied himself with his praise of Vladimir Putin, that he wants to be what Vladimir Putin is in Russia. Now, some people might say, well, you know, that's just rhetoric. Surely he doesn't want to kill journalists in the way that Vladimir Putin does. But go back and use the

Starting point is 00:18:58 Google machine. And you'll see that Donald Trump has repeatedly implied that journalists should be put to death for negative things that they have said about him. And at best that journalists should be put to death for negative things that they have said about him, and at best, they should be jailed. So this is a man who, yes, he wants to do these deals. He knows you need to do corrupt deals with corrupt people. He also wants to be a corrupt autocratic leader. He is, Chris, the most dangerous man possibly in the history of the United States. I would say so too. I would totally agree with you. I watched the dais they put up for the Republican Party with all of his kids and his family and stuff.

Starting point is 00:19:31 And I'm like, this guy wants to seize autocratic control just like Erdogan did when he overthrew the democracy of Turkey. And you're looking at the new forced entry of the royal family right there, basically. And that's how I feel. I've been talking the fascist word a lot more in talking with some of my journalist friends or people pre or post shows. I've been asking about fascism. A lot of people don't want to talk about it because they're kind of lost in

Starting point is 00:19:59 this kind of romantic old style American ideal. And like you say, I don't think they recognize how dangerous this man is. Well, look at it from this standpoint, Chris. You know, what gets a thousand people to gather on the lawn of the White House, packed in like sardines, without masks on, without many of them having been properly tested, sitting there for hours and hours to hear a speech by Donald Trump they've heard many, many times before, in the middle of the worst public health crisis

Starting point is 00:20:29 in a century, and possibly by the time it's over in American history? What causes people to do that? And the answer is fear, a certain amount of fear of someone who is clearly in the process and clearly wants to take a sort of total control over this country, not just our political culture, but as we've seen, I think as all of us have experienced, even those who support Trump, there's a way in which he permeates our culture generally. Every second of every day, he is present in some way. And I'm sure you know, Chris, from looking at fascist dictatorships, at autocracies, that's one of the first things that you see is this attempt to become a pervasive, almost big brother-like presence in our lives that is inescapable and that we are afraid of on some level. You know, Er you down and whatever.

Starting point is 00:21:31 I don't know if he still does them, but I know at one time he was doing them pretty consistently. And like you say, he just overwhelms you, and people just run and go, I don't want to deal with this anymore. But I am worried that he that, uh, uh, he, he wants to have ultimate power. Uh, we've had a few discussions and authors on who've talked about, uh, white nationalism within the, uh, ranks of the religious fundamentals and, uh, how they, they're, you know, basically trying to hand him the presidency again, because they think he's going to go, uh, you know, he's going to continue to support them and i've been telling him no as soon as he gets voted back in he's going to turn

Starting point is 00:22:08 on them too like he turns on everybody and i think he's going to continue to do what he does he's going to seize ultimate power and uh the gop unless we retake the the uh congress they're going to give it to him and i think a lot of people are just asleep at the wheel right now and they're going to give it to him. And I think a lot of people are just asleep at the wheel right now. And they're like, Oh, America could never fall to fascism. But that's what everyone says right before they fall to fascism. Well, and I think what a lot of people misunderstand, Donald Trump is not a conservative. He's not an ideologue. He is a malignant narcissist and would be autocrat whose only interest is in his own enrichment and empowerment, to the extent that he can do something for you because you will help enrich him or empower him, so that means do a corrupt deal with him that enriches him or vote for him so that he

Starting point is 00:22:58 gets more power, he will appear to be on your side for a transient period of time on a temporary basis until he gets what he wants. But you know, to pull back for a second, Chris, that's one of the reasons why across the 2500 pages of the proof series, I don't fetishize or focus excessively on Donald Trump's sort of transient tweets, the ones where he's just essentially banging his rattle against the side of his crib. And it's all bluster and distracting. I focus, number one, on what Donald Trump does, and what we can confirm that he has done, who he has done it with, who he has ordered to do things, what deals he has cut, what collusion he's engaged in, and I lay out the facts of the crimes

Starting point is 00:23:42 committed, and the intelligence threats that he poses, and the uneth the crimes committed and the intelligence threats that he poses and the unethical conduct and the emoluments clause violation and so on. And then I focus on what he says only to the extent that sometimes what a president of the United States says actually matters. And that goes back to, among many other things, what you were just saying about white supremacy and white nationalists, is that he is absolutely trying to send a message of violence and fear and intimidation to certain elements in this country in the hope that they will help him complete the transaction, and it was simply a transaction, that his presidential run and political career is. It is a quid pro quo. He will make you feel the hate that you want to feel, the anger you want

Starting point is 00:24:25 to feel, hate the people that maybe you want to hate or you don't realize you want to hate, but he can make you realize that you'd like to hate and feel better if you hated, as long as you will vote him into office for a second term. And of course, as he increasingly likes to joke, though all his friends say he never jokes, perhaps a term after the second. Yeah, just the alarming thing to see when he tweeted the thing that kept showing Trump going into like 2050. There was like a little tweet with a little gif on it that kept showing the Trump 2020. Yeah, it's really scary. I really feel for this country. I don't know what I'm going to do if I wake up the day after the, whenever we get the election results,

Starting point is 00:25:09 it probably won't be election night this year. But, you know, what you speak to, you can really see just, for example, in the COVID thing. He has no interest in saving lives or protecting country or being a steward to America or Americans. He has zero interest in that. He's busy, like you say, he's busy on the golf course doing his business deals and working on his little evil empire and everything that he's doing. He has zero interest in, you know, like, what, I got to save these idiots? I don't care. And like you say, with malignant narcissism, we're not really even human beings. He has no empathy towards us. He has no feeling towards us.

Starting point is 00:25:45 We're all just kind of sometimes probably more so in his way. Well, I'll give you an example taken from that very long COVID-19 chapter that I mentioned. He had some mega donors who were behind this hydroxychloroquine push. They were invested in that drug. Frankly, I established in the book that he is invested in that drug in a non-zero way. So he stood to gain. He also stood to get greater donations from his mega donors if he pushed hydroxychloroquine, even though there was no evidence that it was effective, no reliable evidence that it was effective, and some evidence that it could be deadly.

Starting point is 00:26:24 And one of the things that I think people will find so upsetting about that part of that really long COVID-19 piece in the book is that Donald Trump kept having his Veterans Administration give hydroxychloroquine to veterans, even after it was known that it could kill them. So when people ask, is there evidence that Donald Trump really thinks that US soldiers are losers and suckers? There's so much evidence in this book. And that's just one or two sentences in the book that establish how little he cares about human life, including the lives of our soldiers. And remember the Turkey example I was giving a moment ago about our soldiers getting shelled by the Turks. There are example after example after example

Starting point is 00:27:05 of Donald Trump putting his transactions ahead of US soldiers. And yes, it's been particularly scary during the COVID crisis, where it is clear that all he looks at is the numbers and how they affect his reelection odds. He does not care about the dead bodies. He does not care about the funerals. He does not care about your family, my family or our children or the fact that we don't know the long-term effects of COVID. He simply has a transaction he needs to close and that's the 2020 election. And that's so he can just keep making money and doing deals and probably stay at jail maybe. And it's just extraordinary. And you map it. you map it so detail where you're just like, here's what happened here. Here's what happened here.

Starting point is 00:27:47 And you're just like, holy crap. The, the level of complexity and evildoers and everything that is going on is just, uh, just, just extraordinary. And, and yeah, you can see the examples of it. One of the, one of the interviews that I listened to, uh, and it may have been more about your private book, but you're talking about Jared Kushner. And a light went on in my head, and I realized why he uses Jared Kushner. Because Jared Kushner, just like his attorneys, the reason Jared's going around him is Jared's doing the backdoor handshake business, quid pro quo deals, I'm sure, rather than, you know, some of the different other levers. Same thing with Giuliani, when Giuliani was trying to circumvent the State Department to go to Ukraine.

Starting point is 00:28:37 Do you want to speak to any of that? Absolutely. Well, think about what we learned from the Mueller report with respect to the loyalty oath that Donald Trump wanted from James Comey. Think about the news that we just learned when John Kelly, the former White House chief of staff, was briefly being looked at to replace Comey as FBI director. Donald Trump wanted a loyalty oath from John Kelly. Donald Trump is someone who, as you said, works much like a mafia boss does. It's not that he has only a very small cadre of people working with him. He has a few dozen

Starting point is 00:29:11 who are willing to do his worst dirty work, but all of them have been put through the paces to ensure their loyalty. All of them have compromised their own ethics and morals in a way that makes it certain in the sort of history of how you use people to nefarious ends. You sort of test them, you force them to compromise themselves, and then they're sort of tied to you with a kind of dark bond. And that is essentially what we see with these two or three dozen people. But as you said, even at that level of sort of mafia-like conduct, there are certain things he wants and needs people to do that require the absolute highest level of trust, the absolute highest level of compromising yourself and any sense of decency. And for that, he does use either people who are family, like Jared Kushner, or like Donald Trump Jr., who is much more involved in this than people realize.

Starting point is 00:30:04 Wow. or like Donald Trump Jr., who is much more involved in this than people realize. Or he uses longtime friends whose loose morals he is well aware of and are well established, like Rudy Giuliani. Or he deals with someone who is, frankly, a known career criminal, like Paul Manafort. And, of course, now we know exactly the sort of crimes, though we only know a little bit of it, and proof of corruption brings out a lot more about Paul Manafort. But those are three big categories. family members, longtime friends who are known to be corrupt, and people who simply because they are career criminals, are people who Donald Trump

Starting point is 00:30:33 knows he can deal with, expect them to act in a corrupt transactional way, but also know that they will not go to law enforcement. And so all of this is actually really hackneyed, cliched mafia conduct. It's nothing new. It's nothing special. It's not even that interesting from a phenomenological standpoint. But it is what currently is era in a way that they didn't when our chief edifices of democracy worldwide were the United Nations, NATO, the European Union, and frankly, a responsible, democratic, honorable United States foreign policy. All of those things have been weakened in place of Vladimir Putin, Duterte in the Philippines, as you noted, Erdogan in Turkey, Mohammed bin Salman in Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Zayed in the United Arab Emirates, Benjamin Netanyahu in Israel. It's a cadre of men who are incredibly venal, who have all engaged in provable criminal conduct,

Starting point is 00:31:40 and are completely transactional. They're not interested in human life or human rights. They are interested in enrichment and self-empowerment. And self-empowerment, yeah. I mean, just power. It's been wild to see how many different people, how many, the GOP, does the GOP shake in fear of him, or are they just along for the ride, where they're like, hey, man, you know, we're a shrinking minority, so we'll just ride with this guy and see how far the ride where they're like, hey, man, you know, we're a shrinking minority. So we'll just ride with this guy and and see how far the ride takes us and we'll stay in power.

Starting point is 00:32:11 I think that Republicans at the national level. So I'm referring now to GOP officials in Washington who are elected at the state or the federal level. I think that they understand and maybe even they understood before many people in the United States did, that the Republican Party was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Trump Organization at some point very early on. This was the Trumpist party more than it was the Republican Party. And why is that important? It's important because once Republican officials had that realization, there was a domino effect. What's the other shoe that drops if this is really, in a totalizing way, Donald Trump's party?

Starting point is 00:32:52 Well, anyone who goes against Donald Trump or anyone who is seen to be undermining Donald Trump could lead to the collapse of the party through a schism, where one Trumpist party would be created out of maybe 70, 75% of what used to be the Republican Party, and what would be left, the sort of Bill Kristol conservative party that identifies with, let's say, Ronald Reagan, though not simply in the rhetorical way that Donald Trump does, but more in a policy way, that 25% of the GOP would become a permanent and largely irrelevant political party. But more importantly, a Republican Party that experiences a schism into two halves or one large half and one large piece and one small piece would be a minority party in the United States under the thumb of the Democratic

Starting point is 00:33:38 Party for decades to come. And so Mitch McConnell and others in DC apprehend that that would be the danger of undermining Donald Trump, the end of the Republican Party and the end of their policy priorities in favor of democratic governance for decades, sort of like you saw in Japan after World War II, where one party control was the norm for literally decades. Now, I don't think that Democrats specifically are seeking that or attempting to induce that. I actually think most of us in this country want a strong two-party system, but Donald Trump could bring down the entire Republican edifice with him, and I think Mitch McConnell and his minions are well aware of that. What can break this? I mean, what can stop this? I mean, do you believe that he will leave office if he loses to Biden in November? Well, there are sort of two separate questions there. And I guess, you know, I'll comment that Trump made, I think, is more significant than people realize for a number of reasons. We hadn't really contemplated the possibility until this recent news about Donald Trump thinking U.S. veterans are losers and suckers. We hadn't contemplated the possibility that Donald Trump could lose his base, that somehow there could be a reckoning for Donald

Starting point is 00:35:06 Trump and not just a reckoning for the Republican Party if it undermines Donald Trump. So I think that there's a chance that if Joe Biden were to win, if Donald Trump, going to your second question, were to somehow agree to leave office, I think there would be a complicated dance to make that happen that would almost certainly have to involve some sort of a resignation and Mike Pence pardoning him for all past and future offenses, though he would still face state prosecution. That's why it gets complicated. But under a Biden administration, I think you would have a more robust federal investigation of the Trump presidency than anything we've had previously, either from the Mueller investigation or the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. And I believe, and I think anyone who's read the proof series would agree, that information would come out

Starting point is 00:35:53 during that sort of investigation that could be on the order of the losers and suckers comment writ large. The sort of spell that Donald Trump has woven over a group of americans could be broken when they see that donald trump not only doesn't care about their lives or the lives of their children but just as important in order to advance his own transactional concerns he would allow any number of thousands or tens of thousands of u.s soldiers to die that's not rhetoric that's that's fact it's proven by his decisions and the bases on which he made those decisions, as reported by eyewitnesses to conversations in which the decisions were made. I think if Americans were to see that through a robust federal investigation under a Biden administration, perhaps we would still be a

Starting point is 00:36:39 divided country. But that percentage of the country that was in thrall to Donald Trump would be looking for a new mooring place for its anger and its upset, and maybe they could lodge onto something a little bit more broadly in the mainstream than this malignant narcissist. As to your second question, as to whether Donald Trump will leave office, I think he will do everything he can to invalidate the election results before the election even happens, so that he can either claim victory or claim it was an invalid election, essentially a win-win situation for him. I think there will be litigation. I think there will be claims that the election was an illegal coup. And I don't actually know how we get out of that. I think no matter who wins in November, we're facing months of chaos. There is no question that if Joe Biden is certified the winner by Congress, he will be inaugurated on January 20th of 2021. But how that will be accomplished and what the country will look like as that's happening, and what false claims of a coup Trump is making at that point, I just can't predict. And I think none of us can.

Starting point is 00:37:46 And I don't think Trump would be against trying to get his supporters to engage in violence. There's some people that worry about a civil war. I hate to drag that into a hyperbole because I'm not sure how much, you know, Americans are really, you know, let's go to war. But still, it could get really ugly. I remember going through the Bush-Gore, the lawsuits and, you know, all the lawyers that were piling into Florida where they were fighting over that whole business. And fortunately, you know, they both, Al Gore cared about our democracy and just went, hey, man, for the best of the country, let's move off this.

Starting point is 00:38:26 Nixon resigned because, you know, he cared about our country and stuff. But Trump won't do that. I mean, I could see him suing for the next 20 years over the election and trying to take the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court may have to step in and just go, hey, man, you freaking lost. But I could see him posing for violence and everything else. You know, his wife said that, I think it was Ivanka, or I get the two mixed up. She said that he used to keep Mein Kampf on the table and read it. Do you think he's ever done a real good study on Hitler and how Hitler rose to power?

Starting point is 00:39:06 Because a lot of the things that you talk about, you know, his penchant for inciting violence and motivating violence, some of it may come from, you know, the issues of being a malignant narcissist where the cruelty is the point, or some of it's just very orchestrated where he's like, here's how I know to play this. You know, him and Bannon had sat down early on and were like, we're going to throw out so much disinformation. No one will know what we're doing. What do you think?

Starting point is 00:39:36 So I think it's really hard to know what actually went on during his marriage with Ivana Trump, who I think is the one who made that claim about Mein Kampf. In the divorce proceedings, Ivana Trump also alleged that she'd been raped by Donald Trump, but she retracted those allegations. We don't know under what circumstances she retracted the allegations. Certainly, we know that Donald Trump has been accused by others of rape. So I don't know exactly what his relationship with anti-Semitism is in the person of Adolf Hitler. I will say that he is clearly attracted to global

Starting point is 00:40:06 conspiracy theories, because he knows that global conspiracy theories, including anti-Semitic global conspiracy theories, are a way for autocrats to seize power. That's actually exactly what his friend Viktor Orban did using an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory involving George Soros in Hungary. And I actually address this in the book. There's a chapter on Soros and on Viktor Orban in Proof of Corruption, which deals with Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani's fascination with how they could use Kremlin-born and Kremlin-ally-born conspiracy theories that are anti-Semitic and involve the Hungarian philanthropist George Soros to try to steal the 2020 election,

Starting point is 00:40:48 if possible. But you know, more broadly, on the question of civil war, let me say this, because I agree with you that we don't want to be hyperbolic. There will never be a civil war of the sort that we experienced in the 1860s. I think the fear that historians have when they're asked about a sort of second conflict internally in the U.S. is there's a fear that a percentage of Americans in various pockets around the country could simultaneously decide that the government that was elected, let's say, in November of 2020 was not, in fact, a legitimate government. And therefore, they did not have to submit themselves to anything that they perceived to be as a regulation or a guideline or an encumbrance emanating from a Biden administration. And that might include taxes, that might include certain regulations. And the question is whether you would have some confrontations with law enforcement, sort of on the order of what we saw in Ruby Ridge or Waco a long time ago. And if you saw a sort of on the order of what we saw in Ruby Ridge or Waco a long time ago.

Starting point is 00:41:45 And if you saw a sort of increase in those types of incidents, fundamentally because of Trump inciting people to believe after the 2020 vote that the government that had been elected was not the legitimate government, at which point you would worry about him starting a TV network, which we know is his plan, Trump TV, because at that point Trump would worry about him starting a TV network, which we know is his plan, Trump TV, because at that point, Trump would be running Trump TV as though it were the actual government of the United States, as though his edicts effectively had the force of an elected president, even though they didn't. That would not just confuse Americans, it could lead to pockets

Starting point is 00:42:20 of violence, it could lead to a lot of conflict with law enforcement. It could lead to a breakdown in social order and in civil order. And I think that's the way in which people talk about a civil war, a sort of slow simmering domestic unrest, pockets of civil disobedience born of Trumpism episode in US history that would be awful to live through. But I think the majority of the country would understand that elections have consequences. And if Joe Biden wins this November, he is the president. I would hope that most of the people, because I saw them emerge from their racist closets and hate closets, I would hope that they would retreat in their hate closets. And maybe they'll just have some more Trump flotillas that, you know, sink.

Starting point is 00:43:04 You know, they'll do that. But I imagine there will be a lot of rhetoric and a lot of arguments and stuff. Probably social media is going to be really infected with all that sort of thing. Eric Prince is citing your book, too, and you've got an excerpt from him. Tell us a little bit about him. I'm really surprised that guy is still running around a free man after Blackwater and everything that went on in Iraq. So yes, Eric Prince is the former head of the mercenary company Blackwater, which was charged

Starting point is 00:43:35 with homicide for the killing of civilians. He's also the brother of Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos. He is a mega donor to Trump. He was a Trump National Security Advisor in 2016. He's most commonly referred to as an international warlord, who effectively had to flee the United States and move to the United Arab Emirates, so he could engage in his clandestine international activities there, which essentially involves illicit arms trafficking, and trying to control private armies around the world. It's almost like something out of a bad fantasy movie where someone's trying to take over the world. Eric Prince certainly has an outsized sense of himself as someone who can control global events.

Starting point is 00:44:18 He's a legitimately scary character. And in the three categories of Trump world minions that I mentioned, those who are in the family, those who are lifelong criminals, and those who have known Trump for so long that he understands they don't have a moral code, Eric Prince is certainly in the career criminal category. And he shows up at the center of virtually every course of Trump international collusion, because Eric Prince is such an international traveler, because he sort of flies below the radar often, and because he is willing to do absolutely anything with anyone to advance his personal interests, which is again, to control private armies and

Starting point is 00:44:57 arms trafficking around the world. So he's at the center of, and this is not just me saying this, remember that the 2,500 page proof series has in total 12,000 major media citations. So it is provably the case that Eric Prince is at the center of Trump-Russia collusion, Trump-Ukraine collusion, Trump-Saudi collusion, Trump-Emirati collusion, Trump-Israeli collusion, there's almost no course of conduct Trump is engaged in, even in China, because Eric Prince's current organization is not Blackwater, it's Frontier Services Group, which is essentially owned in significant part by China. There's nowhere in the world where Donald Trump is engaged in malfeasance where Eric Prince does not make an appearance. If Donald Trump is the most dangerous man in American history, I think there's an argument to be made that right now, along with perhaps

Starting point is 00:45:50 Vladimir Putin and a handful of others, Eric Prince is one of the most dangerous men in the world. He has in the past attempted to create a domestic spy agency for Donald Trump that would report only to Donald Trump and Mike Pompeo and would not be grounded by any of our principles of democracy or rule of law. He has tried to get Donald Trump to privatize the war in Afghanistan so that fundamentally Eric Prince would become unto a nation himself, waging war supposedly to advance U.S. interests, but more likely to advance his own mineral and mining interests in that part of the world. Eric Prince is one of the major characters of this 2,500 page nonfiction epic. And most people who read the series, the people they are most angry at and scared about putting aside Kushner

Starting point is 00:46:39 and Trump and frankly, Donald Trump Jr., are Eric Prince and Michael Flynn. That's extraordinary. Just extraordinary. In the series, you talked about how Trump was willing to work with Russia to bring nuclear power plants to Saudi Arabia and that peninsula. And I believe he's already given them some of the technology to take and do that already. So he's already started that in effect. And I think he's even given them some of the technology to take and do that already. So he's already started that in effect. And I think he's even vetoed some of the things that Congress has said where they don't want any more arms sales or arms sales to Yemen, et cetera, et cetera. So he's already trying to do whatever he can. But you paint this picture in the books of where we are seeing the collapse of the American democracy, the America dream, everything we built, everything.

Starting point is 00:47:25 And what's even wilder is how fast it's collapsing, how much it's easily collapsing right in and onto itself. And Trump is so good with this just massive array of these agents that are, like you say, willing to sell anything, do anything. They're just basically turning the U.S. government into mercenaries for their own riches. And whoever gets in the way, they're just going to run over. And I don't know, another four years, I would say two years, he'll seize ultimate power and we'll go the way of Turkey. Well, I would put it this way. If American democracy were a human body, that body is currently in the hospital, in the intensive care unit, the emergency ward, on a respirator, on life support. I don't know how much time we have left. And I understand, I really do, that to a lot of people hearing this, it sounds hyperbolic. It sounds impossible because our lives, the pandemic aside, which of course

Starting point is 00:48:26 is hard to put the pandemic aside even for a moment, but our lives seem normal enough that we don't think we're at the dawn of an American autocracy. But the fact is, if you read the three books of the proof series, proof of collusion, proof of conspiracy, proof of corruption, no one who has read those 12,000 major media investigative reports from around the world and going back decades has any doubt that American democracy is legitimately on its last legs, largely because of clandestine activities that haven't been widely reported yet. They've been reported enough that they can appear in a work of curatorial journalism, but they have not permeated into the American consciousness such that we understand what Michael Flynn was doing. We understand the multiple courses of

Starting point is 00:49:11 collusion that led to the Donald Trump win in 2016, that we understand what Eric Prince is doing. And so, you know, I feel a little bit conflicted about having written an epic nonfiction trilogy that is that scary scary and that scares people in the way that it does but if you're about to lose your country and we are it is time to be scared um and i don't say that lightly i am not generally an alarmist but i am an alarmist now i and i would totally agree with you i feel I feel we're in the same boat. The thing about fascism that most people don't realize is you don't see it until you lose it. Like it sneaks up on you and you're like, you know, you give away a few pieces here, a few pieces there, and all of a sudden, boom, there it is. When I talk to my friends in other countries, they are alarmed as hell.

Starting point is 00:50:08 And when I talk to my friends in Germany or other countries or other people that have come from countries that have fallen to fascism and authoritarianism, they're like, we've seen this movie. You guys are in it, and you're starring in it, and the rest of us are just going, you know, the alligator is in the water right next to you. It's coming for you. And we're just kind of like going, yeah, we're Americans. We're exceptional and special. Yeah, this can't fall. So I encourage everyone to grab your books.

Starting point is 00:50:34 I would hope that would educate people, you know, and spend a little less time reading about the Kardashians and what they're doing in social media and get educated. It's always interesting. The more people that I educate on, on some of the data, some of the different tweets and stuff that I've seen you put out and reading about people start going, what's going on.

Starting point is 00:50:53 Oh, that's going on. And you're like, yeah, you really should try and figure out more what's going on. I want to say something too about your Twitter feed. That's pretty amazing. I've been watching the,

Starting point is 00:51:02 this morning is you have people posting pictures of their book, their their photoshopping their book, your book, like in all sorts of famous photos, which is pretty extraordinary. Yeah, I thought it would be a fun way for people to talk about the fact that this new book has come out. I mean, obviously, it's coming out at a fraught time, 60 days before the election. It's a grim time for everyone. And I thought, you know, maybe this can sort of at least momentarily lighten the mood a little bit. And it is incredible how creative the readers of my Twitter feed are because,

Starting point is 00:51:33 and I urge people to look at the hashtag proof of corruption. Because if you look at the hashtag proof of corruption on Twitter, you'll get a lot of these Photoshopped images. And they're knowingly Photoshopped. It's actually a Photoshop contest that I'm running on my Twitter feed to give away signed copies of the book and they are putting uh the cover image of the book into all these hilarious situations and again it's it's a moment of levity at a time that we all acknowledge is pretty dark for all of us

Starting point is 00:51:58 my favorite is uh i think kim john el kim john he's reading your book and he's smiling in it like, yeah, all right. In your book anywhere, do you talk about dirty deals with Kim and what Trump was trying to do with him and all that good stuff? Well, North Korea is dealt with only very lightly in the proof series, largely because Trump never got himself to the point where he could actually participate in a transaction with Kim Jong Un. What he did with Kim Jong Un, and this is addressed in the book, is create the appearance of a maximum pressure campaign on the North Korean regime to give up its nuclear ambitions. But that was really just a sort of marketing and PR campaign with no substance behind it. And the result now is that Kim Jong Un is far more advanced in his nuclear capabilities than he was when Donald Trump took office. So we kind of see in

Starting point is 00:52:50 that instance what happens when there isn't a transaction for Donald Trump to complete, because there isn't someone, frankly, sane enough, or focused enough on personal enrichment rather than empowerment to do a deal with Donald Trump. And what happens is there's just a lot of smoke and light and television cameras and nothing happens, but the U.S. gets less safe. Definitely. I mean, this guy doesn't care about what he does. He just wants to make his money. I imagine he thinks he's going to live forever. Do you think he thinks that way? Or do you, like I said, when I saw the dais of his of his convention i'm just like well he's gonna he's gonna turn into ultimate power he's gonna become king and then uh you know he'll just he'll just put like i don't know all of his different little kids or or uh son-in-law in there well i'll

Starting point is 00:53:38 say this he's obsessed with his own genetics you can google that he believes he has personally superior genes, and he associates that with being from Germany. So take from that what you will. He certainly lies about his medical records. He's been caught actually getting doctors to, no pun intended, doctor his medical records to make him seem healthier than he is. And he clearly has an interest in setting up his children to succeed him as part of a dynasty. The only question now is whether it's Ivanka or Donald Trump Jr. who will be running for president at some point in the next four, eight years, whatever it is. So I know it sounds odd to say, to even have us be talking about this,

Starting point is 00:54:17 but does Donald Trump think he'll live forever? He certainly thinks he'll live for a lot longer than probably any real doctor would say if that doctor examined him. Yeah. And I think one of the biggest problems of the American public, I've been fortunate or unfortunate enough to know people like Donald Trump. I've studied Donald Trump since 86, but I've known people that were pathological, malignant narcissists in business. And so I know how they are. And what's sad to me is a lot of Americans don't

Starting point is 00:54:46 know that. They don't understand what's going on. They're like, why doesn't he love us? We're Americans. You know, like, you don't, you have no idea what sort of cake you're dealing with here. Just an extraordinary series of books and literature that you put out. I mean, between your Twitter feed and your books and everything else, anything more we need to know about this book, Seth? Well, I mean, I would say this. All three of the books honestly were written to be critical information for voters at a critical time. And that's why I wrote these books in the way that I did and why they are very dense. And sometimes they are hard to get through

Starting point is 00:55:26 because they're very sad and difficult and violent parts. It's not a beach read, but people who've read it and found it incredibly valuable to read the proof series have said that they're trying to execute something more on the order of a civic duty. And I realize it sounds crazy for an author to talk about his book that way.

Starting point is 00:55:43 But remember, I don't take credit for the original reporting in this book. I celebrate and I honor the incredible work of thousands of investigative journalists in this book. So really, when I'm urging people to read these books as sort of a civic service, as people who are going to be voting and people who want to protect our democracy, I'm really asking for all of us, myself included, to do everything we can to honor credible major media investigative journalism, because there's so much of it out there. What I've done here is I've compiled it, I've curated it,

Starting point is 00:56:14 I've synthesized it, but I hope people will check out this book on an urgent basis, because the information in the book is honestly urgent. And I know as an an author it's self-aggrandizing to say that but talk to anyone who's read these books and they will tell you the information is urgent information for all u.s voters we're 60 days to the election uh and then less than or more than uh and uh people already have either already voted or they're voting now with the absentee ballots so i would agree with you. The urgency is definitely important. And people need to know what's really going on.

Starting point is 00:56:50 This man does not care about him. Hopefully that's kind of why for some reason the crack is breaking now, even after the John McCain comments four years ago, five years ago. I think with the suckers comment, the people are kind of realizing, wait, he thinks we're suckers too. He thinks the military suckers, he thinks we're suckers. This is this whole guy's

Starting point is 00:57:15 genre. And so I'm hoping that's going to be the crack that's going to bring the boy down. I don't know. We'll have to see because there's so many different silent voters and corruption. God knows what else is going on between now and then. I hope that people will awaken to what this man is and who he is and what he is not because even people who I disagree with profoundly on policy, and of course, many of his supporters, nearly all

Starting point is 00:57:43 of them I disagree with on policy. I don't like many of his supporters, nearly all of them, I disagree with on policy. I don't like seeing my fellow Americans taken advantage of. I don't see them like seeing them being lied to. I don't like what he's doing to our farmers. I don't like the way that I think he is actually increasing economic polarization in this country. He is hurting his own voters. And, and I mean it earnestly when I say, I hate to see that happen. I don't have a problem with the Republican Party at all. I believe in a strong two-party system. I don't actually believe that Donald Trump has any ideology or is a conservative. I think he's dangerous. I think we need to go back to having two responsible parties in this country that are at least trying, though they need to do better than they've done by a lot,

Starting point is 00:58:30 to meet the needs of Americans rather than the needs of the politicians themselves. And I would even take it one step further, say he's killing his voters, like in the South and Georgia and everything else through some of his policies he's done. I agree. Let me say one last thing, actually, if I can on that, Chris. The Washington Post created something called the Trump Death Clock, and they did actual research on what percentage of COVID-19 deaths can be attributed to Donald Trump's delays in acting in early March. And this is covered in proof of corruption in great detail. And people will be stunned by this number. According to research, over 90% of deaths from COVID-19 in the United States, which is at this point, north of 170,000 American souls, their deaths can be laid at the doorstep of a decision Donald Trump made for entirely venal transactional reasons, frankly, petulant reasons that is described in proof of corruption. It can be laid at the doorstep of Donald Trump. So you're exactly right, Chris.

Starting point is 00:59:25 He is killing people. We can't say he will kill people. He has killed people through being a malignant narcissist and someone who believes in only his own advancement and not the protection of the United States. And people who want to challenge that need to realize there are perfect examples of that in history. When Stalin told everyone to go to the farms and killed, I don know was it like 25 million people when he's like yeah we're gonna

Starting point is 00:59:48 do the farm thing and i mean every every one of these monsters in history they've slaughtered their own people by either negligence or just not caring or or maybe intentional and and this is nothing new to them they They don't matter. And that just even kills me more when I see people that are like, he's fighting for us. And you're just like, you have no idea what's going on, do you? But that gives them all the more importance to read your book and everything else.

Starting point is 01:00:19 Guys, go read the book. I've been following Seth for several years on Twitter. He's brilliant. He writes great stuff and you're going to learn a lot of stuff, but you've got to look the dragon in the eye and you've got to find out what's really going on behind the scenes because he's not sitting around going, how can we make America great and better and more loving? I mean, I think that's a perfect example of what he's done in the past four years. The book is Proof of Corruption, Bribery,

Starting point is 01:00:43 Impeachment, and Pandemic in the Age of Trump. It's out today. You can order the baby up on Amazon or other places. What's your website, Seth, so people can look you up on the interweb there? Sure. It's www.sethabramson.net. And if you go there, not only can you find a lot of order links for the book, but you can find some excerpts from the book that you can't find elsewhere in case you're still deciding whether you want to check it out. But as we've said, I think people will find it to be a bracing,

Starting point is 01:01:15 thrilling, terrifying, but most importantly, incredibly informative read. And that's why I wrote the book. I really want to inform American voters before this critical election. I concur, man. You don't know what you got until you lose it.

Starting point is 01:01:28 And this thing is up for grabs. What was the old line from Ben Franklin? You have a republic as long as you can keep it. So there's that. Thanks to my audience for tuning in. Thanks for Seth for being here. And check out his book. You can go to Amazon, too, of course,

Starting point is 01:01:47 forward slash shop, forward slash Chris Voss. See all the wonderful authors we've had on the Chris Voss Show. You can see the, it'll be the audio recorded, but the video version is on youtube.com forward slash Chris Voss. And you can also go to the CVPN or Chris Voss Podcast Network and see all nine podcasts that we have there. Thanks to my audience for tuning in. We'll see you guys next time.

The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Proof of Corruption: Bribery, Impeachment, and Pandemic in the Age of Trump by Seth Abramson

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