The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Real Life: The Journey from Isolation to Openness and Freedom by Sharon Salzberg

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

Real Life: The Journey from Isolation to Openness and Freedom by Sharon Salzberg https://amzn.to/41DIe8E Merging the insights of inspiring voices with her own understanding of mindfulness, New York Times bestselling author Sharon Salzberg shows us how we can recover from the emotional effects of crisis. When confronted with pain and obstacles, we often shrink back and contract out of fear and disappointment. That can become a way of life. In Real Life, Sharon Salzberg lets us know it doesn’t have to be that way. When we feel alone, cut off, or trapped, we can let those difficulties steer us onto a path toward an authentic, flourishing life―living in a way that allows us to find the wholeness that lies within. Even when we’re alone, a sense of community can accompany us through the stormy times. Our words, hearts, and actions can line up with a larger vision, rather than the smaller views our anxious, fearful thoughts arouse in us. To live in a less constricted way―with a more spacious, open sense of possibility, creativity, connection, and joy―Salzberg says we need to get real about what’s most important, to ask ourselves, “What do I most deeply yearn for?” “What would I benefit from letting go of?” “What do I believe is possible for me?” We accomplish the journey to expansive freedom (Real Life) through developing tools like mindful awareness, friendship, and a greater sense of purpose/aspiration. We learn to: • take some risks with what we dare to imagine • take an interest in internal states we might normally try to avoid • take an interest in people we might normally try to avoid Real Life is about the journey we make when we decide to live the life that speaks to our innermost longing to live free.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from the chrisvossshow.com, the chrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the big show, my family and friends. We certainly appreciate you guys tuning in. Thanks for being here, as always.

We love having you as the greatest audience ever known, a man, woman, dog, child, people, insect, whatever. We love you. Refer to the show, your family, friends, and relatives. Go to goodreads.com, 4chesschrisfast, youtube.com, 4chesschrisfast, linkedin.com fortress chris foss you can now see us on tiktok at tiktok chris foss one and the chris foss show podcast today we have an amazing multi-book author she's on the show with us and joins us today uh she's written her latest book april 11th that came out 2023, Real Life, The Journey from Isolation to Openness and Freedom.

Sharon Salzberg joins us on the show today, and she is a very prolific writer. She's read a multitude of books we'll get into here in a bit, but she is a meditation pioneer and a world-renowned teacher and New York Times best-selling author. She is one of the first to bring mindfulness and loving-kindness meditation to mainstream American culture for over 45 years, inspiring generations of meditation teachers and wellness influencers. She is the co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society in Massachusetts, and the author of 12 books, including The New York Times bestseller, Real Happiness, now in a second edition, and her seminal work, Loving Kindness. Her forthcoming release, the one that we're talking about today, is kicked off, and her podcast, The Meta Hour, has amassed 6 million downloads and features interviews with thought leaders in the mindfulness movement and beyond. Welcome to the show, Sharon.

How are you? I'm great. It's very nice to be with you. It's very great to have you as well. Give us your.com so people can find you on the interwebs. Sure. It's SharonSalzburg.com. Salzburg is spelled with an E, not a U.

Spell check is going to try to change that. Don't let it do that. Don't let it do that. Don't let it do that. So give us an idea of what made you motivated to write your latest book, please. Well, like many people, though not everyone, I was in pretty severe lockdown during COVID. And I was here in Barring, Massachusetts, where the Insight Meditation Society is. I come up here from New York City in kind of mid-March thinking, I'll go up there for

two weeks and ride it out. And I was just here for a very long time. And so I have written other books and I was moved to kind of write about my experience, what i was relying on what i was counting on what was supporting me uh the difficulties i and so many were facing and uh the tremendous loss in some way that so many people were experiencing either of a person a beloved or just circumstance you know like i wasn't expecting to be here my life is in great upheaval, like so many. And so I thought, okay, what's the thread that's helping me? And what's the thread that's helping others that I know? And let me try to convey that. Definitely.

I mean, it was such an interesting time. And so many people wrote so many amazing books. So many amazing books during this time that people were using. It was quite incredible, all the different experiences people have. So give us a 30,000-foot overview of this book. The arc of this book is moving from those states where we feel most confined and trapped and constricted to states of openness and connection and freedom. And really looking at our experience, it's not so much the state itself, the emotion, the fear,

the anger, whatever it might be, but it's getting lost in it, getting overwhelmed by it, seeing no way out, no options. That's really what is imprisoning us and being able to relate differently to all of those with more kindness and compassion toward ourselves. So we open up and then in that openness, really fostering a sense of connection to others. And I realized that was, that was a trajectory. First of all, I'd been on my whole life and many of us are, but it also could happen in changing a thought pattern, reminding myself, you know better than that.

You don't need to go there. You've been there 50,000 times. How about trying this? And it just like things got more creative for me as I was formulating it. I thought, oh, that's a way for many. You've written 12 books now. How do you think this book is different than the other ones you've written? Partly my circumstance was really different like i wasn't traveling which i was doing constantly before then and you know grabbing an hour to write or something like that and uh it was just my life

you know i was looking uh within and doing what i could do to try to help others which was a massive amount of teaching online. And also, I was moved so much by what I was reading. I'm like a really habitual chat reader. And I'd read these things as I was teaching meditation, which is what I do. Somebody would write, I live in a nursing home. I haven't had a visitor in a year. Wow.

Or I went to see my mom in a nursing home, stood outside in the snow so i could see it through a window it's like we forget you know what it was like especially in some areas you know i work a lot whenever i can with the people we call caregivers those who either in their personal lives their families or in their professional lives are really in a way on the front lines of suffering and challenge and trying to help others and you know when people would say to me you know people are not always able to say goodbye to their loved one as they're dying they have to do it on ipad i would say someone holding that ipad yeah you know there's who day after day after day after day is bearing witness to this. And so I did as much work as I possibly could with people in the medical professions or first responders or, you know, firefighters, anybody, ambulance drivers, those people. And so I was learning such a huge amount.

It was so moving to me that, and given the circumstances of not traveling i was able to put it down on paper so to speak there you go you know it was a difficult time for a lot of people my sister has a mess she's in a care center uh we had to do the go stand outside the window as you mentioned uh we couldn't we couldn't risk getting her covid, especially in the early days when everyone's like, I don't know what this is and what's going to happen. My other sister, who was born with mental illness, had always been in homes. She was blind and partially deaf, and she was, I think, cerebral palsy. But after 40 years, she finally succumbed to just, uh,

seizures and normal health. And when we had the funeral, we just had myself and my mother at the funeral. I think someone from the church, we couldn't have like a whole, whole sort of thing. Uh, because you know,

COVID a funeral. I mean, of all the ironies, if someone died from that. so it was a very hard time, very dark, murky. Uh, it's all the ironies, if someone died from that. So it was a very hard time, very dark, murky. It's kind of, you know, sometimes I go to the store and I'm just like, God, we used to do this whole thing with masks and it was crazy time. So you kind of address what happens when we feel alone, cut off, trapped, and how maybe we can use those sort of experiences to empower ourselves.

Is that correct? That's true, because how we relate to those experiences is everything. And mostly we're not taught, unless we have a very unusual skill set, to relate well, for example, to our own fear. We usually condemn ourselves that we feel like we're weak or it shouldn't be there. Or, you know, my case, like I've been meditating for 50 years, for God's sake, why, why is that still coming up? But to learn a whole other way of relating is a way out. And that's the irony of it. You know, we think fighting and battling and hating what we're going through is a way out and it's really not. But's also the other side of it which is don't forget to take in the joy you know sometimes we feel bad about that like other people are going

through so much you know how dare i appreciate this sunset or you know this child's smile or this great movie or whatever it is but we need to yeah you know hi voksters voss here with a little station break hope you're enjoying the show so far. We'll resume here in a second. I'd like to invite you to come to my coaching, speaking, and training courses website. You can also see our new podcast over there at chrisvossleadershipinstitute.com. Over there, you can find all the different stuff that we do for speaking engagements, if you'd like to hire me, training courses that we offer,

and coaching for leadership, management, entrepreneurism, podcasting, corporate stuff, with over 35 years of experience in business and running companies as a CEO. And be sure to check out chrisfossleadershipinstitute.com. Now back to the show. You know, a thing that helped me, and it actually you know we've had our show for 14 years and i don't know how much of our audience realized this i think i've talked about it before but in in 2001 covid hit i was struck really hard with a lot of stuff i mean we're losing hundreds of thousands of dollars in shows and events you know we normally would go out to these big shows and interview people and uh cs and the nab show and and sema show and south by southwest and we normally would do all these

interviews and uh and there was a lot of different you know just events touring speaking all that sort of good stuff and it all just was was planned out. It was guaranteed business and it just collapsed. And so it was a lot of money. Uh, not only that, you know, it suddenly became that the money didn't really matter. And, uh, just about anything you own didn't matter because your loved ones could possibly be taken from you. Um, and, uh, it was a very scary time. And I remember a friend of mine wrote on social media, he goes, here's what you do in this moment. You do one of two things. You either be a lifter and lift people up or you find a lifter.

And I was in a moment where I really needed a lifter. And I remember thinking, okay, I'm not good at trying to have other people lift me up. I'm just, I just suck at that. And I, so I said, how could I'm not good at trying to have the other people lift me up. I just suck at that. And so I said, how can I be a lifter? And I took a look at my assets and we changed the format of the Chris Voss show to go from interviewing CEO technology people and all this business silliness that we used to do that seemed silly at the time, I should say. And I said, we're going to open the scope up of the show.

We're going to interview authors of all walks of life and everybody, and we're going to create more info entertainment. And it was what I wanted to do in my heart and what I felt good doing. And I tried to create shows that lifted and to be a lifter. And I've loved that ever since, and it's been a beautiful changeover. And we've had people like yourself on the show but that whole be a lifter uh thing really gave me an empowerment to uh to uh try and lift people up and inspire people and hopefully it worked that's beautiful and dare I diagnose you as a caregiver probably that's exactly the

um the pattern you know that so many people have and you know people say to me you know um i'm not a hospice nurse or i'm not in that position of taking care of a family member but in my friendships just my ordinary connections i find i'm always the giver i feel very uncomfortable receiving you know might i be classified as a caregiver i say yeah i think so you know yeah uh it's it's a pattern so many of us have and it was a survival mode for me i mean i've always been uh a bit of a comedian i've always tried to make people laugh i i kind of get a juice off it like comedy uh comedians do, it's almost like a crack cocaine when people laugh at your jokes and you're like, yeah, let's do more of that.

And when people call me from hospitals or going through different issues, call it childhood trauma, whatever you want to fucking call it. That's the way I got it, but it works. It's a survival mechanism for me. But I make people laugh. I've had people call me from

hospital bedrooms and they're really in a dark place and i'll start making them laugh and telling them nurse jokes and doctor jokes and you know and then pretty soon they're laughing and then pretty soon they're in a much better place and so it's almost kind of you know self-survival mode because there's a self-serving self-love sort of thing to trying to help other people out. It's kind of when we give, we get, I guess. Yeah,

I think that's really true. And, uh, not very good hospitalization for pneumonia, which had your number. You know, call next time. Hopefully you won't be in the hospital,

but yeah, if you ever get the hangnail just give me a ring i shall you know and it's fine sometimes it's out of balance you know it is a survival mode i really agree with you and and so many of the things that we um have patterns for are adaptations and they were really smart you know maybe for a very long time. And yet, sometimes when it's your only mode or you don't see options or you're just kind of tired. Yeah. You know, it's nice to have some options that appear.

And receiving, it makes so many of us uncomfortable because I'm the same way. But nonetheless, when you kind of sense someone with a balance, you think, oh, that looks interesting. Yeah. I mean, even if i'm on the ceiling and i'm probably gonna do jokes and make people laugh and be so decrepitating self uh you know um but you talk about some different things in the book on uh important things to ask ourselves why do i most deeply yearn for or what i'm sorry what do i most deeply yearn for what would I benefit

from letting go of and what do I believe is possible for me I like these questions they're very open-ended and spacious tell us more well it's really it's thinking of um these changes it's like a journey and like any journey we pack in a way you know we're kind of saying what do I want to take with me what do i really would i well leave behind but also that framing kind of came strongly for me when i was actually sitting with a friend who was dying it was some weeks before her dying although because you never know you know like if it was a day or some weeks it turned out to be some weeks but but she was at home and they set up a bed for her in kind of this den area overlooking a garden. And so and across the garden, it was a courtyard and there was another building.

And at one point she said to me, she was kind of going in and out of clarity. And she said, basically, I have to pack. And I said, you have to pack? And she said, you have to pack. I have to go over there and I have to pack. And I said, you have to pack? And she said, yeah, I have to pack. I have to go over there, and I have to cross the courtyard, and I have to bring all this stuff with me. So it didn't occur to me what she was sort of saying for about 45 minutes. So I just kept saying, everybody loves you.

I love you. You're not alone, whatever. And then 45 minutes later, it struck me what across the courtyard probably meant. And I said, remember when you were saying you had to pack all this stuff to take it across the courtyard? You don't have to take anything with you. It's okay. You can just go. You can just go.

Don't worry about those things. And she said, really? And I said, yeah, really. You can just go. And that's when that framing got really strong for me i thought what are we dragging along you know that maybe we don't need tomorrow even you know that's that's brilliant so if i understand you correctly you know maybe we should quit carrying all this stuff this baggage we have around through life because when it's when we die,

it's gone, and it's probably not going to matter for a hill of beans like I don't know if your utility payments do or something. Exactly. You don't have to be wild and reckless, but really, it's like the things we worry about and the grudges and what does so-and-so think of me? It's like, who cares? Yeah, who cares? know yeah who cares you know it it's true though but i'm you know it's uh i remember the old fight club scene where it's like you know we buy things to impress people who don't give a shit about us yeah uh no one cares if chris voss has a designer bag or not um you know i i can't even name design i was trying to think of one off

the top but uh you know no one cares i mean i i used to live my life where i would buy things to impress people and uh and i you know i did it for myself i grew up poor so i would buy things you know and impress myself but i also thought well people see me in this nice car. They're going to be like, holy crap, what an amazing gentleman that Chris is. And usually people are just like, no, he's still an asshole. Which hasn't changed, actually, over the years. Or I would bet all those people you call when they're in the hospital, when they hear your name, they don't think, that was a great car he had. Yeah, that's true. That's a really good point, isn't it?

Yeah. Uh, they, they, they, they, they were like, wow, he's really funny. And, but then they were like, nah, he's still an asshole. Um, but no, yeah. I mean, a lot of, a lot of this stuff, we, we, we carry a lot of stuff. Like we, one of the challenges i think everyone has i i assume everyone has maybe unless you're a narcissist um is you know you worry about the past you think about past things you're like oh god i wish i hadn't hurt that person or offended

that person or said that stupid thing or you know i i can see how you know when i did this it caused this and that was hurtful to maybe some other peoples or hurtful to myself and you know, when I did this, it caused this, and that was hurtful to maybe some other peoples or hurtful to myself. And, you know, and we worry about all this crap that we can't change. You know, you can't change the past, right? And so I think probably what you said plays a lot into that, doesn't it? I think it really does. I think there's a useful or skillful way of checking out those things you know because first of all they check

us out they stay with us so you know they come back and we think about them whether we want to or not but you know it's kind of like lessons learned you know i realize that those circumstances i'm usually so quiet i don't speak my mind that's a mistake i'm going to really try to be different you know going forward and we fall down but we can have that that intention and that's really important or maybe making amends in some situations you know like that really stopped that person in their tracks i think i'd feel better if i i mean i was just talking to somebody about a decision they had to make about their life and their marriage and so on. And I said, do you sense which path you might take in which you'll have the least regret and which one you might be really haunted by regret?

Wow. So those are important considerations but there's something else we do which is is more like a like a wholesale condemnation like not just i said that stupid thing i'm going to try to be better it's like i am so stupid i am so bad i always will be you know there's no hope for me i could never change and so it's just this massive kind of lacerating self-hatred that leads nowhere. So it's not useful. It's not helpful. And it's so painful.

Yeah. I like how you framed the question, though. I've heard that the power of a good quality of life is the questions you ask because it opens us up, as you've talked about in your book, to seeing everything that could be possible. And framing the question the way you said it is really interesting, because you're addressing which might you regret less, or which path should you consider? Because sometimes people don't really consider the path. They just kind of go down them and they go, well, I guess we're down this road. Yeah.

And framing it in a way that like, what are the downsides of this? Because a lot of people are like, hey, I'm going to go buy a new car today. We'll just throw that around as a thing since we're kicking around the show. And you're like, I'm know i'm gonna go buy xyz card uh and uh you know should i buy you know the the big giant gas goes our car that the electronic vehicle we'll just throw that around for fun and uh you know so you're like uh i don't know which car is going to bring me regret like uh the gas guzzler and then gas goes to five dollars per gallon there might be some regret there. And you know,

the EV, you know, whatever the thing is there. And so I like, I like the concept of thinking about what's the potential for the most regret. Yeah. There's also, I mean,

that's a great example because, you know, there's also the possibility of considering like, what might I have to give up in order to get that object or that experience or something like that because sometimes we're willing to compromise a lot like i'll work day and night and never see my beautiful new car because i have no time i'm working two jobs and i never get time to drive the thing. Exactly. There you go. I like that idea. I love how you frame that and think about the, the different variations of,

of a result. And, and by prethinking through that, you hopefully you can make better decisions, right? Yeah. And it's just more joy. Ah,

joy is good too, that we should get joy in there as well. Yeah. Yeah. And note to self work on the joy part you talk about taking uh some risks with what we dare to imagine once again i love that line tell us a little bit more about that if you would well you know i i remember conversations you know different conversations i've had with people which are reflective of states i've been in you know as well which are more like maybe i could be a little bit happier you know or you know maybe a

slight improvement and i think why bother you know really you know we i think truly we are capable of a great deal yeah and you know it's not because of circumstances even it's not because of the perfect car or you know stable of cars or or whatever you know because we all know people who may not have any of that and and they seem to be very fulfilled human beings anyway and uh there's something else that can happen through feeling connected feeling caring um remembering to take in the joy not overlooking those those small things not being brought down by falling down you know but learning how to pick yourself up or let others help you up there you go and going forward things like that yeah uh one other thing you're talking about is taking interest in people we might normally try to avoid.

Why is that important? Well, I think even before the pandemic, I kept reading about an epidemic of loneliness, not only in this country, but in different places around the world. And I kept thinking, and I'll also be reading about the healing potential in social connection in different clinical conditions. You know, like you're suffering from this or you're suffering from that. Like, what does your social connection look like? And I kept thinking, well, it can't just be a numbers game. Like, I only have two friends. I need 18.

You know, it must be some inner sense of being interested in people and, you know, feeling connected. You go to the grocery store, you remember to thank somebody, you know, who's helped you out instead of just ignoring them or considering them as part of the furniture or something. You know, and there's so much of our day, we're just in another world. We're disconnected. And not even because we dislike someone, but just indifference. We hardly notice them yeah and i love the concept of that framing of taking an interest in people we'd normally try and avoid because i think we do kind of get in a selfish mode you know i remember hearing years and years ago larry king say why he loved interviewing people and talking to people he

goes i have an innate something along the lines of saying i have an and talking to people. He goes, I have an innate, something along the lines of saying, I have an innate curiosity to people, the lives they live, why they chose the paths they did. To me, life is like a giant forest of pathways and trees, wilderness and mirrors maybe, if it were. And we choose to go down these different paths. And some of what you've written in your book is talking about opening up as to maybe making some better choices, the forks in the road. We go down and rethinking them instead of, you know, like I said, you end up down, you go left and you're just like, maybe I should go back.

But fuck, we're on this road. And so to me, people are really curious. Like I used to be, I used to have this attitude that like, I don't know, whatever way I was going through life was the right way and everyone else was wrong. Uh, my dad was a bit of a narcissist, uh, rubbed off, I guess. But then I realized that, uh, there is no right way and, and, uh, people are interesting. People have journeys and there's things you can learn from them. Yeah.

And so I've always been interested. I've always just kind of learned to have an interest in people. Like, what makes them tick? What makes you do things? And that's why I love the show. Yeah, you have the perfect livelihood. I do. And that's why I enjoy it. It's one of the few things I've ever done in my life that I truly, truly enjoy.

Like, I do this regardless of anything. If I was homeless, like i do this i do this regardless of anything if i was homeless i'd do this um i don't know it'd be a little bit hard to pay for all the the upkeep but uh i i to me people are interested i get on a plane and i love talking to people and usually i'll buy drinks and usually by the time i'm done i've got like two or three rows laughing their ass off at me and whatever stupid shit i'm doing and and uh you know uh, you know, uh, the wait, the waitresses or the, the flight attendants love me and give me free drinks. And so, uh, you know, but it's interesting to inquire, but people find out about them, what makes them tick, where, what's their journey, where they get there.

And how's it going? Eh, there you go. And it expands our mind, think in our on our optic scope oh yeah i think it's great and you know i've had i'm from new york originally and you know i've had people in new york say you know new york used to be the kind of place where you would strike up a casual conversation with like the person sitting next to you on the bus now everyone's on their phones and so they feel much lonelier you know yeah those conversations enrich their day yeah uh what were you saying i was looking at my phone um the uh no you and you're right we have this uh we have this social uh modicum i don't know

what the right word is where we're all looking at our phones and like i remember when i first started seeing the you know the ipadsads and the iPhones really catching on. And I would go out to dinner. And I'm a single guy, so I usually look around at other people. I'm a people watcher, of course. And I would see whole families. And there would be two kids and a wife and husband. And they're all looking at their phones eating Subway, you know, whatever.

And you're like, that looks like the morgue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, you're like, uh, you're like, wow. Um, that, that looks, that looks fun. And, and like, no one's talking to each other, just eating in silence. And like, no one acknowledges each other.

No one's like, how's your day. And I grew up in a family where you know uh we we had to sit around the table hey we had to talk to each other which usually ended up in a fight but you know it was the 70s maybe we need more of that now we need more fighting or maybe we should talk to each other to find out what the hell's going on. Yeah, at least aliveness, right? Yeah. You know what's interesting to me, too, that I always find really interesting, is my friends that are married will text each other, sometimes when they're in the same room with each other. And sometimes they're trying to say stuff they can't say around the kids.

But other times, they're just talking about crap. And you're just like, seriously? Like, what the hell? They're just talking about crap. And you're just like, seriously? What the hell? I remember hearing that there was some people that had a car accident because the wife and husband were sitting next to each other in the car texting each other. And you're like, you're sitting next to each other in the car talking. I mean, there's a real intimacy loss that we have i think in our society because

these electronic devices yeah and so there's probably more of a search for a lot of what people do in there why don't we touched on your book that we should tease out to get people pick it up um let's see my book uh i think you know what i was i was trying to kind of cover both sides we can deal with the challenges and the difficulties in a whole other way we're capable of that and we can remember to reach for the joy and allow that to happen and if we can work with each of those and they're very workable then so much happens so much emerges like a whole other sense of creativity and connection and clarity and as you're you know pointing to a sense of possibility i don't have to be so stuck i don't have to feel like i'm in this rut and i think um

you know one of my uh previous books was named real Happiness by the publisher, and that put me on the real train. After that, I had like five books with real in the title. And this one, I think it really belongs on the title because we don't have a sense of living an authentic life sometimes, but we can. Yeah. And is that really what the search is for? Try and be more authentic with ourselves and people in our lives i think so because i don't that's why i think the loneliness is there is because we don't feel seen we don't feel like we're seeing others but we can you know we don't have to be

that disconnected yeah it's uh and maybe sometimes when we're lonely, that's the thing to do. I learned when in gratitude, sometimes my most darkest moments in life when I'm struggling, there's been times where I've had financial trials and tribulations over 55 years. Sometimes the best time when I'm not receiving anything is to go out and give and uh there's been moments in my life and stories in my life where i've just said well things aren't working i'm gonna go help somebody you know i i have nothing i have almost nothing to give except just maybe some physical labor help and i'll go help somebody with something um and uh that has been the most biggest blessing and it's it's almost like i don't want to say it's the cause

of well if i when i go and get give stuff i get stuff but it definitely made a difference in being grateful for where i was and and kind of basing me putting me back into a context of the simplicity of it all and being grateful and realizing that, you know, maybe some of the BS I was feeding myself about myself wasn't as important as I thought it was. Well, even in, you know, very pressing circumstances, very difficult circumstances, I think what you just said is so powerfully true. I started a retreat center. I co-founded a retreat center here in Massachusetts in 1976. It's the Insight Meditation Society. It's just next door to me through the forest. And I have a house here that someone built, the

founding teachers. And I spent February 2020 traveling throughout California teaching meditation. And I got back to New York City where I had a rented apartment in early March. And then I was teaching, I think it was March 9th, in a completely airless room in a basement somewhere in a museum. And everyone, you know, March 9th, New York City, people are incredibly anxious and having so much difficulty and people are starting to get sick and people in nursing homes are starting to get sick and uh there we were and the system in that particular setting of teaching is

that the speaker sits in the audience in the front row until they're formally introduced then you get up on the stage and and you start leaving and so i was sitting in the audience and next to this woman who was phenomenally anxious like beside herself you know should i be here and if i should be here and i should be anywhere and i said to her because i'm a meditation teacher uh well you know there's certain breathing techniques that you can use and the fundamental of that is that if your out-breath is longer than your in-breath, the parasympathetic nervous system is said to take over from the sympathetic nervous system and kind of chill. Your blood pressure is likely to go down and you get more relaxed.

So I said, well, there are these breathing techniques you could use. She wasn't interested at all. So then I said, well, you know, there's a particular form of meditation which I kind of specialize in called loving kindness meditation when you think of others and you're offering good wishes and she wasn't interested in that at all so i just looked at her and i said can you help anybody and she got radiant she like lit up and she said you know i have this elderly neighbor maybe i could slip a note under her door and see if I could go buy her groceries or something like that.

And I thought, look at that. There you go. No, there you go. There you go. It's, it's interesting sometimes that maybe giving is getting outside of

ourselves. Maybe now that I think about it. And so this is wonderful. I, you know, and I love the questions you ask in the book and, and, and,

and how you frame it. So it kind of does help us get outside of ourselves. Anything more you want to tease out in the book, share before we go? No, and I do have meditation instructions in the back and the appendix for people who are interested in that particular way of, of checking things out. There you go. It's, it's, uh, it, I, there's a lot of people that love meditation i know uh howard stern and i think his mother was the one who introduced him to trans i think it's transcendental meditation

and uh it's it's it's supposed to really help them i don't know it's howard stern still no i'm just kidding he's a fine gentleman it's just a joker um But no, it seems to help a lot of people and stuff. I think I've suggested to my mom, and it's been suggested to me, but I think we're going for frontal lobotomy, so forego the meditation. If you ever decide to, just as I have your number now to call you, should I ever be in the hospital again, then you have my number. You can call me if you ever want to meditate. There you go. I'll have to look at'm in the hospital. Should I ever be in the hospital again? There you go. Then you have my number. You can call me if you ever want to meditate. There you go.

I'll have to look up some meditation jokes. Okay. What do the yogis say to the, I don't know. I just saw off the figure. Hot dog vendor? You can check it out. Yeah, the hot dog vendor. I don't know.

You probably know lots of meditation jokes. I probably do. There you go. Well, Sharon, thank you very, very much for coming on the show. Give us your.com so people can find you on the interwebs, please. Sure. It's SharonSalsberg.com. There you go. Well, Sharon, thank you very much for coming on the show. Give us your.com so people can find you on the interwebs, please. Sure. It's SharonSalsberg.com. There you go.

And thanks for tuning into my audience. Go to Goodreads.com, Fortuness Chris Foss, YouTube.com, Fortuness Chris Foss, and LinkedIn.com, Fortuness Chris Foss. And also see us over on, what is it, TikTok. And we're Chris Foss 1 over there and the Chris Voss show podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time.

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