The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Results: Getting Beyond Politics to Get Important Work Done by Charlie Baker, Steve Kadish

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

Results: Getting Beyond Politics to Get Important Work Done by Charlie Baker, Steve Kadish A Leader's Guide to Executing Change and Delivering Results. Governor Charlie Baker, one of the most popular governors in the United States, with a reputation for getting things done, wants to put the service back into public service: "Wedge issues may be great for making headlines," he writes, "but they do not move us forward. Success is measured by what we accomplish together. Our obligation to the people we serve is too important to place politics and partisanship before progress and results." For the Governor and his longtime associate Steve Kadish, these words are much more than political platitudes. They are at the heart of a method for delivering results—and getting past politics—the two developed while working together in top leadership positions in the public and private sectors. Distilled into a four-step framework, Results is the much-needed implementation guide for anyone in public service, as well as for leaders and managers in large organizations hamstrung by bureaucracy and politics. With a broad range of examples, Baker, a Republican, and Kadish, a Democrat, show how to move from identifying problems to achieving results in a way that bridges divides instead of exacerbating them. They show how government can be an engine of positive change and an example of effective operation, not just a hopeless bureaucracy. Results is not only about getting things done, but about renewing people's faith in public service. Empty promises feed disengagement when instead we need confidence in our government and the services it delivers. When a mob attacked the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021, the very core of our democracy and our sense of government were threatened. Demonstrating that government can work—the goal of this book—is vital to ensuring the future of our democracy.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Well, hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to another episode of The Amazing Chris Voss Show. Maybe

we should change the name to it. Maybe it should just not be The Chris Voss Show. Maybe it should be The Amazing Chris Voss Show. Sounds like, I don't know, sounds like one of those cheap comic book hero sort of things. Maybe I'll get a cape too and wear like leotards or something. No one wants to see that. No one wants to see that. Don't write me. Don't don't tell me that. Anyway, guys, we have an amazing gentleman on the show with us today. As always, we have the most smartest people on the show. It's been quite a brilliant week if you've been following the show. We've had some amazing authors on the show. And today we have one another. We have the governor of Massachusetts, Mr. Charlie Baker on the show or Governor Charlie Baker should be the correct title there. He's going to be talking to us about his latest book, Results, Getting Beyond Politics to Get Important Work Done.

It came out on May 24th, 2022. And we're going to be talking to him about his experience as a governor, what his future is going to be, and some of the things that he accomplished and put in the book. In the meantime, go to youtube.com, Fortuness Chris Voss. Hit the bell notification button, go to goodreads.com, fortune.chrisfoss, and also see our big LinkedIn group and our LinkedIn newsletter and all those things we're doing over there. Welcome to the show, Governor Baker. How are you? I'm doing fine. How are you, Chris? There you go. It's great to have you on. Congratulations on the book. And tell us where people can find you on the interwebs. So I think the best place to find the book would be any of the online, the big online

sales organizations. It's on all of them. And the other thing I would just say is, obviously, if you want to follow the administration, you can follow us on Twitter. We have a pretty, I mean, we got a couple hundred thousand people who follow the administration there. And obviously we also spend a lot of time in what I would describe as the news generally about all kinds of issues. Hey, Chris, one thing I should tell you is, you know, there's a great old movie. It was a cartoon called The Incredibles. And the woman who made everybody's

unis in that movie made very clear that capes were a bad idea so if you're gonna go with the costume i think that's great but i think you should i think you should skip the cape bad things happen should i get this wearing the capes okay should i get the eye thing where you have the eye slit there you go that would be good do my parents have to die for me to be a superhero i don't know it. It seems like I need to happen. It does happen a lot, doesn't it? Yeah. I need to come up with some sort of crisis trauma that turns me into, I don't know. I think from what I've seen of the penguin, I'm probably more penguinish in shape than anything. So there's that. So what motivated you want to write this book? So I think the main motivation was I've spent most of my career in the public and private sector. I've spent a lot of it building strong teams and getting a lot of important work done in both places. And there's a lot of how-to books for the private sector out there. There are not many how-to books for folks working in the public sector. And there's a lot of books in the public

sector about policy, about why you should do something, what you should do and all the rest. But the actual nuts and bolts of trying to actually get something done, which is really the most important part is for as far as, you know, residents and citizens are concerned, not a lot of literature there. And I think that's one of the reasons, frankly, the book got published and it's actually selling pretty well is if you're a practitioner, if you're a researcher, if you're an educator, I'm going to find a lot of books on the shelf that involve the public sector that talk about the actual act of delivering on a commitment. And that's really why I wrote the book. Oh, there you go. There you go. Now you're, you're rated as how we'd go in there you're rated as one

of the most the most popular governor in the nation in early 2022 how does it feel to be the most popular governor and do you wear a shirt and rub it in the face of other governors you know actually i've always said as a as a candidate and and frankly as a sitting executive, that I try not to pay attention to the polls because they move, right? And sometimes they move in a bad direction. Sometimes they move in a good direction. You're really better off just doing your job and actually spending a lot of time out of the office, which is one of the things we talk about in the book, talking to those who are affected by what you do, those who work with your agencies, those who are part of municipal government, those who are, you know, the myriad of organizations that do work that benefits the public. You learn more

from talking to them sometimes than you might just paying attention to what the polls may say, because they change. Is that the real difference in listening to your constituents? Well, it's a number of things. I mean, we have what I call kind of a framework in the book, and it's got four elements to it. The first one is people are policy. And I think sometimes in the public sector, people don't always understand just how important the people you put into the roles you put them into matter. And my dad always used to say that most people get fired by their peers and their subordinates before they get fired by their boss. And I think that was his way of telling me that the people you work with and the people who work for you are going gonna have a lot more to do with whether you succeed than you will. And the people you work with,

the people who work for you, they will most of the time in government, just like it is everywhere else, will determine in large part whether or not you're successful. So point number one, be very careful about the people you put into key roles. Make sure they're qualified for them.

Make sure they bring the right skillset. Make sure they give you the diversity of opinion you're looking for. And make sure they've managed somebody or something before. It's a pretty high flying act to be learning on the job when you're doing it in the public sector. It definitely is. Second thing, second piece, pretty simple, which is follow the facts. Now, that may sound odd, but a lot of people just intuit what they think the answer is. And you really ought to spend the time to figure out what it is that's actually going on, what the points of pain are, and what you think you can do, especially for the people who deal with your organization, what you can do to actually address those. The third piece is what we would call push for results, which is if it's not working, whatever you're doing, whatever you're doing to try and fix something, if it's not turning

out to work the way you want it to, don't just double down on it. Step back. Look, figure out if, in fact, you are doing the right things. And if you are, go for it. If you're not, be willing to pivot and try something else to get where you're going. Don't be, you know, a lot of times people in a lot of management jobs, if it's not going the way they think it's supposed to go, they tend to just keep going that way. And in a lot of instances, what you really ought to do, step back from it, take a look at where you are,

and be willing to think differently about what the answer is going to be. And then finally, make sure that you incorporate what you learn into the next thing you do. This should be what I would describe as sort of a continuous learning exercise. And for a lot of people, it's fine to approach every situation and circumstance as a new one. But there are tells, there are things you should be able to learn from previous experiences that you can apply as you go forward, especially if they start to feel familiar. It was your hope with the book to try and create a prescription for how politics should be, a way to come together, a way for the best ideas to percolate and not be so much of what we see in polarized politics now where, you know, it's people on one side or the other.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I mean, campaigns are contests. I get that. You know, I've run and I've lost and I've run and I've, and I've been in some very tough, very close races. I think one of the things people sometimes in politics forget is that when the campaign is over, what people really want you to focus on is the work. And you ought to be ultimately judged by how much you focus on the work, because people put you there not because they thought you were a great campaigner, but because they thought you were the right person for the job. And I do think we've tried pretty hard here in Massachusetts to just expect that at the end of the day, everybody wants to get things done. And I, you know, I'm the son of a dad who was a Republican

and a mom who was a Democrat, and they didn't vote for the same person for 60 years they were married, but they were married for 60 years. You'd have those marriages today, baby. I don't know. Well, the dinner table at my house growing up was highly entertaining. I mean, a lot of people, a lot of my friends used to come just to watch. And, you know, and I learned very early on that, you know, when your parents are sitting there trying to debate what the best way to do something is, they're having a conversation. You know, it's not a war and no one's being, no one's being thrown out of the room because they don't agree with you on one thing or another. And my parents, you know, they were usually debating means. In the ends, they were usually seeking to try and accomplish the same objectives. And I think too many people in public life

sometimes forget that campaigns, yeah, they're contests, but governing is about work. Definitely, definitely. You know, you're a Republican governor. You've been governor since 2014, I believe. Correct. I won the election in 2014. I took office in January of 2015. Okay. And you've stepped away from maybe running a third term in November.

Is that true? That is also correct, yep. What made you decide, you know, you're one of the most popular, you are the most popular governor out of all the governors. What made you decide, you know, some people would say, hey, this is a great time to run for presidency. You know, what made you decide to step away from a third term? And is there a chance of running for president? Well, you know, you never rule anything out in politics, I suppose. But is that a non-denial denial? I, you know, you never rule anything out in politics, I suppose. But is that a non-denial denial?

I think. Well, that's what they call them. Yeah. The what I would say is that, you know, I my wife and I celebrated 35 years of marriage this year. I have three kids and I I wasn't around much for the past couple of years, primarily because of the pandemic. And and I think I think everybody would like me to be around more. I wasn't around much for the past couple of years, primarily because of the pandemic. And I think everybody would like me to be around more. And this is not the sort of thing you can do if you don't have the support of your family,

because it does suck up an enormous amount of your time and your attention span. I think more than once in the past couple of years, I've had some member of my family say, you know, hey, come back here. I know you're not thinking about us. You're off thinking about no plows or whatever it might be. But I really, I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I mean, it's a difficult job, but I just love the front row seat it gives me to the people of Massachusetts. And because they see you on TV all the time, right? They think they know you and they speak to you with enormous familiarity, good and bad, you know? I mean, I go out to a restaurant with my wife. I end up spending half the night talking to the other people who are in there because they come over and they got things they need me to know.

And I love that. I think my wife would prefer us to just enjoy a nice quiet meal together, which I understand. Sounds a bit like Michelle Obama. There'll be a little more of that back in January. Sounds like a little bit of Michelle Obama where she was like, I'm already had enough with this politics. And I think it's really amazing what you've done there in Massachusetts. You know, you've got a beautiful quote in the book from one of my favorite people, John F. Kennedy, let us not seek the Republican answer or the Democratic answer, but the right answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept

our own responsibility for the future. And with that, let us begin. I thought that was a very beautiful quote that's in your book. That is exactly, I basically quoted that in my first inaugural address in January of 2015. And the reason I did it was I was trying to set a tone and to send a message to the folks in the legislature and to the public generally that we were going to avoid the blame game and focus instead on common ground opportunities and the work. And do I get everything I want out of the legislative process? No. But, you know, the founders who a lot of people talk about, okay, in very glowing terms, appropriately so. The founders set this thing up as a distributed decision-making model. And the reason they did that was because they didn't like this whole idea of the king. And I don't either.

And so when I don't get what I want, I respect and understand that I work in a distributed decision-making model. And that's different than the private sector. You can apply a lot of principles from the private sector to the work you do in government, but it's not designed to be run the way the private sector's run. And that's, you know, that's on purpose. And I think that distributed, has served us well for a couple of hundred years. Hi folks, Chris Voss here with a little station break. Hope you're enjoying the show so far.

We'll resume here in a second. I'd like to invite you to come to my coaching, speaking and training courses website. You can also see our new podcast over there at chrisvossleadershipinstitute.com. Over there, you can find all the different stuff that we do for speaking engagements, if you'd like to hire me, training courses that we offer, and coaching for leadership, management, entrepreneurism, podcasting, corporate stuff. With over 35 years of experience in business and running companies as a CEO, I think I can offer a wonderful breadth

of information and knowledge to you or anyone that you want to invite me to for your company. Thanks for tuning in. We certainly appreciate you listening to the show and be sure to check out chrisfossleadershipinstitute.com. Now back to the show. There you go. And it's served you well for what, eight years now or going on eight years once you hit it? You know, I like your approach. I mean, my understanding is Massachusetts is largely, you know, Democratic Party stuff. Is that true? You know, it's funny. The largest party in Massachusetts is the unenrolled. Oh, really? Yeah. The unenrolled voter is about 60% of our electorate. And I think that's, I mean, honestly, based on what I hear when I'm out there talking to people most of the time, most voters, my opinion, okay,

most voters are not check the box on one side or all the other. Most voters, you know, crisscross back and forth between things. You know, if you were to say, this is the Republican position, this is the Democrat position, you know, most voters go back and forth like this. They don't tow the party line in either case. They make up their own minds based on the particulars of a particular issue. And I think as a result, a lot of voters, at least here in Massachusetts, actually the unenrolled, I think are now the largest voting bloc in the country. They basically, you know, there's sometimes when they agree with the Democrats, sometimes they agree with the Republicans, sometimes they probably don't agree with either, but they're not, they're not total line voters. And I think one of the big problems in politics is too many people in politics think they are, and they're not. Wow. And they're more in the people business?

Would that be the outline? I think the, I mean, my view on this is the best way to manage this process is to figure out what you think. And my own opinion is probably not surprisingly a combination of my mother and my father and a lot of conversations I've had with people over the years, some of whom I agree with and some of whom I don't. But generally, I got to tell you, Chris, I've never found anybody I couldn't agree with on something. I mean, this is like, for me, the most unusual part about kind of the nature of a lot of our political debate these days is people behave like a whole bunch of people out there can't agree on anything. I happen to think that for certain elements of the political world that works. But I really do believe that most people, given an opportunity

to sit down and be honest about it, you'd find out that most people can agree on a number of things. And it's that common ground opportunity that I believe the sweet spot is in public life generally. I'm hoping that more people see what you're talking about and believe more in finding the middle. We've talked about this on my show a lot in most recent years because we've seen some of the extremes, especially with January 6th and different things like that. We've seen the extremes of where we've kind of, you know, Obama put a best, President Obama, where he said, you know, we zig and zag as a country and we're constantly searching for that perfect union and we'll probably never achieve it. But, you know, for me,

I tell people now, I believe in getting the best standard bearer, the best relay race man for the race for the next four years or eight years or however we put into offices to carry that constitution forward, to carry the vision of building a perfect union forward. And really, we should pick who that best person is to do that as opposed to party and all that other stuff. So I love this idea and the kind of mill road approach that you've taken with trying to find the best ideas and the stuff you espouse in the book of listening to people. You know, I've gone from being a Republican to being a liberal. And now I find myself in the middle of the Democratic Party. And to me, I, you know, I still tell people I would vote, depend upon who's on the ticket, for the best person to take that relay race forward. Yeah, I think that's, I think you're,

you know, frankly, I think your point of view is pretty consistent with where most of the people I talk to every day are. There are certainly folks out there who are partisan voters. You know, they're going to vote for the Republican candidate, the Democratic candidate, the Green candidate, the conservative candidate. But there are also a ton of voters out there who are going to vote the person and they're going to make up their own mind based on a whole number of elements that are associated with how they make that decision. And actually, in this day and age where there's so much information available to people, I think that's likely to be more the way people make decisions going forward,

because you can find out anything about practically anybody who's running for office. That's true. That's true. You know, to me if you if you would say anything i'd say i'm more the constitution party there's no constitution party that i know of but i i really like that whole constitution thing the freedom thing i kind of like to see the democracy thing go forward so that'd be really good what what made it so that you you did did your have, I heard you talk about how your family kind of helped you by the way your mother and father would work through ideas to try and realize there isn't just like one right idea and one wrong idea. Tell us a little bit about that, if you would. of the Nixon administration, John Volpe, who was the secretary of transportation, was from Massachusetts, previously served as governor of Massachusetts. And my dad also served as undersecretary of health and human services in the Reagan administration. Margaret Heckler, who was a congresswoman from Massachusetts, was the secretary at the time. And my mom was, you know, deeply involved in all kinds of local political circumstances, situations,

organizations, educational activities. And so they both came to this stuff with, you know, a pretty developed sense of how to do things and what they thought was important. And for them, it was fun. I mean, listening to my parents talk about this stuff was, it wasn't just educational. It was also what I would describe as sort of developmental. I mean, it gave me a sense about how different people could look at the same issue and see it differently and based on their life experience and based on just what they thought made sense. And, you know, sometimes I thought my mom was right. Sometimes I thought my dad was right. And I did have dad was right. Um, and I did have a lot of friends who would just love coming by just to, and, and then, you know, if they got called

on by my parents to participate, that was always kind of interesting. But, but I do think the, I do think one of the things that made this developmental for me is I asked people a lot of questions. Um, the, the, uh, you know, my, one of my dad's other sayings was, you know, your receiver should be a lot better than your transmitter. And he was a big believer that you learn more by listening than you do by talking. And what was that? What was that? No, sorry. I have to, I have to do that. And, and I think the, and I think for, for me as a candidate too, right. As a, as a guy running for office and as somebody who served in office, asking questions and hearing people's take on stuff, where they grew up, where they went to school, how they lived, where they came from, their family experience, all this stuff. You'll

learn that there's just, and honestly, I don't think you get anywhere near the kind of window into people that you get when you're a familiar face to them and a public official, because they're just very honest with you about it. It's an incredibly educational and humbling experience because you meet people who've been through some real hard times and you meet people who've got a completely different sense about the world than you do, but it is built on the back of their own life experience. And they come to the positions that they have completely honestly as a result of that. And, and they should be, you know, sort of respected and celebrated. And, and I, you know, I've never lost a friend. I, let me, that's not quite true. I have never walked away from a friend over

somebody who disagreed with me about stuff during my, you know, seven and a half years in the public eye. But I have had some folks who walked away from me. And I, you know, I sort of understand it. But at the same time, it just feels to me like it's politics is a part of everybody's life, but it's not the only part. That's a really important perspective to have. And I like how you presented in the book, talking about people or policy, following the facts. Listening seems to be a real big theme of what's important to you. And whether you read your book for a politics or politics science sort of thing,

or whether you read it, you know, I've run companies. So I read it as a lot of like, you know, listen to the customer, you know, and leadership sort of things and leadership principles. And those are things that are really important. Do you find it's easier to govern by trying not to get caught up in this, you know, these extreme polarization sides? You know, we have huge toxicity. I mean, if you go on Twitter any given day have fun with that do you find it's easier to navigate getting things done by by being more towards the middle and and trying to get everybody to work together and and you know get along why can't we all get along yeah so i i had a i served in the cabinet of bill welds when he was governor and

paul salucci was lieutenant governor in massachusetts in early nineties. And, and one of the things Weld said early on, which I thought was a really interesting statement, he said, look, you know, people are going to agree with us. People are going to disagree with us. I don't want somebody to vote no on something just because I disrespected him or I didn't hear him, you know? And his point was, you know, if you can keep, if you can keep people focused on the issues and, and not on what I would describe as, as sort of personal slights and stuff like that, the way he used to talk about it was, you know,

it's okay to be hard on the issues, but you should be soft on the people. And, you know, you should respect everybody's opinion. And what you really want at the end of the day is people to make decisions based on the issue and not so much on whether or not you were with them on the last thing, or you didn't vote with them on this or whatever. And his point was, you got to get above sort of the day-to-day back and forth and recognize and understand that a lot of this is, you know, your coalition today is going to be different tomorrow and is going to be different the day after that. Because as you move from one issue to another, you're going to find different people.

I'm now back to the thing about, you know, you will find common ground with people you didn't find common ground with on something else. But that only works if people have decent personal relationships with each other. And that's why, to me, the whole question about doing this work is very much about respecting and understanding where other people are coming from. And there's a lot of people in this world who are perfectly happy to tell you where they're coming from. Right. And I think, I think part of being, part of being productive in this role is to understand where other people are coming from and, and, you know, absorbing a lot of what's coming toward you and not, not spending your

whole day fighting over things that are sort of entertaining, but don't really move the agenda very much. There you go. I like the word you use there, respect other people and their opinions and stuff. I think when people know that you respect them, when you value their opinion, and maybe as a manager, you have to decide, as a leader, you have to decide, okay, well, this is the way we're going to go, or this idea is the one, or however you pick that, or I imagine in politics, there's a bit of give and take and balance and trade-offs maybe. Yeah, but I like the word respect. You may have answered my question. I was just going to throw you about how to manage a situation. You know, recently you had Governor DeSantis of Florida send migrants

out to Martha's Vineyard and you're presented with a situation that could drag you into, you know, some polarization, some toxicity. You may have answered the question, but how do you go about managing that so that you can stay centered? You don't have to, you don't get pulled into the polarization. What goes through your mind? Because I think that's good for leaders and managers. Well, you know, you had 50 people who, under false pretenses, ended up on Martha's Vineyard. And, you know, flying people around the country, first of all, it's a lousy thing to do.

And secondly, it doesn't really help solve the problem. OK, the problem is Democrats and Republicans in Washington have been unable and some probably unwilling to find common ground on what to do about immigration for a long time. And that creates, you know, a real crisis along the border for a lot of the folks who live along the border. And there's no question, there's an enormous amount of fentanyl and heroin coming across that border. And it's a giant, horrible, tragic public health issue for a lot of people in the United States. And I guess what I would say is we looked at this thing and said, we got 50 people here, they have varying immigration status, they ended up here literally by surprise from their point of view.

I mean, we were surprised they were here, but they were surprised they were here as well. And we were basically helping them deal with the, you know, they all most, they all came from Venezuela, which is a broken country in many respects. And, and they all are seeking asylum and there are legal issues associated with that that have to get processed. And, and we're, but the, the, the thing that's missing in all this is there are people who come to Massachusetts from other parts of the world with varying immigration statuses and other states, okay? Not just Massachusetts. This happens

all the time. And they're usually seeking asylum and they'll have a hearing at some point. But in the meantime, you know, they need to get a work permit and they need to sort of figure out where they're going to try to settle while they do that. And we focused on that because from my point of view, that's the part I have control over, right? I've advocated ever since I ran for governor in 2010 that we have an immigration problem and an immigration system that's broken and needs to be fixed, okay? That's not new for me to be saying that, but I can't solve it as a governor. I deal with the consequences of it as do other governors, but that's something the folks in DC at some point are

going to have to deal with, you know? That's true. That's true. It's almost like they, they kind of kick it down to the governors and let you guys work it out. I mean, all politics is local, but it almost, yeah. I mean, I hate to sound like somebody who's just like, oh, God, government's bad. I don't mean to put that across to anyone because I think that's a cop out for people to say. But it almost seems like it's almost more political theater at that congressional stage than it is for local state governors who are on the ground. We live with and among the people who elect us, right? I mean, we see him every day. You know, like I said, I go out to dinner. I'm not the people at the tables around me are not are not lobbyists and an advocate. Right. The people around me are the people who live and work in the communities that I'm in. And and I do think, you know, the your thing about, you know, all politics is local. You know, I was a local official. So was the Lieutenant governor before she became governor or Lieutenant governor. And, and we both start with the notion that that's a big part of the way to think about this work, which is, you know, you're a, you're a state official. We have 351 cities and towns in

Massachusetts. We should be working with all of them to help them improve the quality of life in their communities. And that's been a big part of what we've focused on for the last eight years and people have noticed. And again, if you think about either our framework or another framework, people notice when things get better. People notice when things happen. People notice when stuff that hadn't been done for a really long time suddenly gets done. And I think the, and that's at the end of the day, what I think most local officials and state officials want to be and expect to be measured on. What did you actually accomplish? You know, we had Chris Matthews on the show,

famed hardball host. And, you know, he talked about his years with Tip O'Neill, working for Tip O'Neill. And a lot of your politics, I don't mean to make it sound old because we're both kind of in our late teens or late 20s, right? Yeah, right. Exactly. But it almost seems like Tip O'Neill was kind of the last of that old sort of style politics, certainly before the next guy, where, you know, people were reaching across the aisle. In fact, I hear a lot of politicians in Congress talk about that, how we can't do that. We can't. We're so polarized.

We can't reach across the aisle. Is there a future for, you know, kind of mill the road, non-polarized politics because you know we saw like in the last republican and democrat nominees for president you know as they were going through the ranks and and all the people and stuff some people who seem to make sense and be the most sane on both parties side were the ones who got excluded and didn't get to voted up the line do we do we have a futuristic country where we can get back to some semblance of normalcy? You know, I think this stuff tends to go in cycles. I mean, one of the things about, you know, BM-65, which is what I am, is I've lived through a whole bunch of cycles at this point. And I, you know, I've read in a lot of books about the history of the country. And we do, politics is like everything else, you know,

it goes in, it goes in cycles. And, and I, you know, I, I said earlier that, you know, we're to the point now where more than half the, not more than half, but the largest voting block in America based on that Gallup poll they do every year is unenrolled voters. Well, you know, those unenrolled voters are, are kind of a little bit of a signal to the rest of the political apparatus because they weren't they weren't the majority. Excuse me. They weren't the largest vote of a group of voters 20 years ago. OK, no. I mean, relatively speaking, who are saying, you know, I would really like to see something that's a little different than what we're getting. And I, you know, I don't know when, I don't know when that, you know, when that cycle works its way out or works its way through. But I certainly am an optimist and I believe that, you know,

things will get, things will get better when it comes to stuff like this, because they do. That just, that's just the way, it's the nature of where this country's worked since the beginning. Well, it's a great book on leadership and hopefully it's a great book that will inspire maybe more political kids coming, kids, young people coming out of college for political science that have aspiring political careers. Or if you're working in government, you might find it to be an interesting book because it will. I do think the framework itself will help you sort of diagram out how you want to solve a problem and how you want to get something accomplished. There you go. There you go.

What's your proudest moment or favorite moment as being governor of Massachusetts? I don't know if I have a proudest one. I mean, there are a lot of things we've gotten done that I'm proud of. I think one of the most emotional moments for me was we signed in 2016, one at the time, what was probably the most comprehensive legislation in the country to deal with the opioid epidemic and the addiction crisis that came with it. And we were first in the country to do a whole bunch of things that eventually a lot of other states and even the federal government to push back against this terrible scourge. And, you know, and we were all making, and so that was just a very emotional day for everybody because I'd gotten to know a lot of families who'd lost a lot of kids and a lot of wives

and husbands to opioid overdoses. And I really thought we put something in place that was going to make a difference. And it was making a difference. And, you know, honestly, the pandemic was the worst thing that ever happened to the fight against addiction generally and opioids in particular, because, you know, a big it played completely against the kinds of things you'd like to be doing to help people who are either dealing with addiction or are sober, but, you know, it's one day at a time, right? And honestly, I think, you know, we have a ton of work to do coming out of the pandemic to try to put that one back on the right road.

There you go. There you go. So are you going to feel like when you leave office that your work was complete, that you accomplished at least what you could accomplish with, you know, different legislatures and stuff like that? Are you going to feel like you may want to do more after this? It might be leading you into the Nile again. No, I mean, these are not, you know, as I said earlier, I worked for eight years for two governors in their cabinets in the 90s.

And I, you know, my dad worked in the federal government. I mean, I, this is just, it's somewhere in my DNA. This is something I like. I like to do and I believe in it. I would never say no about much of anything.

The one thing I will say is that my wife and I are both looking forward to just going away together and doing something after my term is over. And one of my kids and his wife are going to have a baby in February, which will be our first grandchild. So that's kind of, I'm sort of feeling like there are some things that are going to be happening here that are life events that matter. And, but I, I would be really surprised if I sort of completely hung up the cleats and walk completely away from this stuff. I mean, I've been, I've been involved in it one way or another pretty much the entire time I've been an adult. Well, I love what you put in the book. I love the management skills, the leadership style.

It makes sense that people are policy. I love that. That was one of my favorite chapters because that's really what it's all about. We see the divisive performance sort of politics, and really people are tired of that. Like you mentioned that down the middle road where people are just like,

hey, we just want you guys to get along and get stuff done because we're busy here. You know, the old network line, we're sitting here with our radio tires and our TV and we just want to rest and go fix stuff for us. And so I hope there's a great future in you for what you want to do. And I hope the book inspires a lot of people, not only that maybe are in politics now, but in the future of politics, to give them a third option as to not being polarized on either side. And, you know, that people will be inspired in the message to vote for a better country. You know, people will tell me stuff about politics, and usually it's a lazy sort of response. I don't know, politics or this and politics that. And I'm like, you know, you get the politicians and you get the government that you deserve,

that you vote for or that you don't vote for. Voting is not voting is still a choice. And so it's important that people realize that and give a damn about what their future wants to be and the politicians they put into it. That's absolutely right. And the one thing I would say on that is that, you know, the turnout at the national level is actually typically bigger than the turnout at the state level, which is typically bigger than the turnout at the local level. So one message I would send to all of your fans out there is, you know, voting your local and

state elections, okay? I'm going to assume a lot of you turn out in those federal elections, right? But pay attention and vote in the state and local elections because there are a lot of people serving in those jobs who make a big difference in what goes on in your life every day. Yeah. I mean, those are the people that, you know, they're the garbage that gets picked up. All politics is local, you know? It's they make the world go around on that mayoral level or whatever the local office is. And that's really where, you know, everything gets made a difference. And if you think about it, it's, you know, it's public safety. It's schools.

It's youth programs for your kids. It's parks and playgrounds. It's roads. It's a lot of environmental stuff. It's, you know, your electricity. What do you pay for? What do you pay for? What do you pay for this energy that fills your house? I mean, there's like so many, so many things that are

driven by in your life that are driven by what your state and local policymakers and those who execute on those policies are doing every day. And they matter. They matter a lot to you and they matter to your family. Yeah, they definitely do. And, you know, that great constitution, we recently had billionaire David Rothstein on the show for Macaulay and, you know, he had a copy of the Declaration of Independence behind him and we talked a little bit about how much that meant. And, you know, I sat down at the end of 2020 and reread the constitution.

I sat down and I actually got copies and gave it out to people. And we keep one like most of the great journals that we have on the show. And to me, you know, people really need to get back to that core thing of what this democracy is about and caring about your government, caring about the people that are in it and everything else. So I love the message you're sending and sharing with people. And it's a brilliant book, whether you're in politics or whether in business. So I'd recommend it there as well. Thank you, Governor Baker, for spending some time with us today. We really appreciate it. Chris, I really appreciate the opportunity and good luck with the costume and the cape. Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, that's, I don't know that people, you know, people run up to me

when I go to do events and stuff and they'd be like, the Chris Vaughn show! Because we sing it at the beginning. Somehow that turned into a bit years ago. And you go, you, like, okay, I should have my own governor's security detail. But I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't look good in leotards is the problem. No one does.

That's probably true. So anyway, give us your dot coms where people can find you on the interwebs. Of course, plug out the book. I'm sure mass.gov is one place. Mass.gov is where you would be most likely to find us. There you go. And order up the books, folks. Wherever fine books are sold, remember to stay on those alleyway bookstores.

I got shivved in. I got knifed. They took my watch, and I need a tetanus shot. I went in the alleyway bookstore. Stay away from those. Are you serious? No, I'm just kidding.us shot. I went in the alleyway bookstore. Stay away from those. Are you serious? No, I'm just kidding. It's a joke.

We'll tell it at the end of every show. Only go wherever fine books are sold and pick up the Baker's book. Results. Getting Beyond Politics to Get Important Work Done, May 24, 2022. Those of you watching it 10 years from now will know we're up with that. Thanks to my audience for being on the show. We certainly appreciate you guys listening in, sharing the show with your friends and relatives. Go to youtube.com, fortuneschrisfossgoodreads.com, fortuneschrisfoss.

Our big 130,000 group on LinkedIn and the LinkedIn newsletter. You'll be seeing this on as well. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. And we'll see you guys next time. And that should have us out.