The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Resurrecting America’s Entrepreneurial Spirit: A Practical Approach for Creating Jobs by Joe Nicassio

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

Resurrecting America's Entrepreneurial Spirit: A Practical Approach for Creating Jobs by Joe Nicassio Amazon.com Employeeescapeplan.com Where Do Entrepreneurs Come From? Entrepreneurs are ordinary people, with a spirit of creativity. These people create commerce. When they are successful, they create JOBS. Every living person on this planet has the fibers of creativity, just like we all have muscle fibers. Every person on this planet has the capacity to be an entrepreneur. When we exercise our muscles, we get stronger, and if we don't, our muscles get weak, and atrophy. The same concept applies to our "business creation muscles." When we train our minds to create value, for the benefit of mankind, we become stronger entrepreneurs. When we fail to train our "business fibers," business stagnates, fewer jobs are created, and eventually, companies fold, and unemployment soars. At the time of this writing, most entrepreneurs emerge as a societal "aberration," because their Spirit is so strong, they are driven by clear purpose, a willingness to learn "whatever it takes", and overcome all environmental and psychological barriers. The thesis of this book is: In order to have a thriving capitalism tomorrow, we, as a nation, have an on-going vested interest in nurturing entrepreneurs today. The book is divided into 3 major sections. Section 1) Moving Our "Economic Mentality" From Employer-Reliance To Self-Reliance Section 2) Eliminating "Spirit Killers" & Replace Them With "Spirit Builders" Section 3) Prayerful Meditation To Build Your Personal Spirit, and Create The Conditions For Miracles To Manifest in Your Business This book is a unique approach to job creation. It is NOT about tax codes, economic policy, or regulations. It is about nurturing entrepreneurs at the grass roots level. This book will remind you that if you want a "dream job," you will need to create it for yourself. No one else is going to do it for you. If you own a business, if you want to start a business, or you are interested in education reform, you will find this book thought-provoking, insightful, and uniquely valuable. About the author Joe Nicassio (1961-present) was born in Los Angeles, California, he grew up in Alta Loma, California, then lived in Long Beach for 30 years. After his interest with technology, he became more interested in human nature, and obsessed with discovering "the truth" of business success. He has been a sought after marketing consultant, and named the "very best" copywriter in LA by Levine Communications Office. He currently is an offline marketing expert. He is active in his church. Joe practices Shotokan Karate to keep healthy.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries and motivators. Get ready, get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Cause you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain.

Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Voss is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Ladies and gentlemen, our latest season that makes the official welcome to the big show for over 16 years and 23 in our half episodes of the Chris Voss Show. 10 to new 15 episodes a week. Boy, it's hard to keep up on. We call ourselves the podcast because we give you so much deets.

You can just binge it all. Just binge. Binge the whole 23 and a half episodes. Start at the beginning and just listen to it. Don't go to sleep until you do. Anyway, guys, we have an amazing young man on the show we'll be talking to. In the meantime, go refer the show to your family, friends, and relatives, or else go to Facebook.com for Chess Chris Foss. Chris Foss won the Tik Tokity and christen.com for Chess Chris Foss.

I did them in reverse and lost my place. We have an amazing old man on the show today. We'll be talking to him about his insights. His book came out in 2012. It was called Resurrecting America's Entrepreneurial Spirit, A Practical Approach for Creating Jobs. We're going to talk about entrepreneurism, America, and how we can make more entrepreneurs. Joe Nicacio joins us on the show.

We'll be getting into some of the details of his life, his experience, and why he helps employees become entrepreneurs. The entrepreneurs and pre-entrepreneurs hire Joe Nicacio to achieve measurable success in growth and gain clarity because most of them feel struck. They are struggling to find clients and overwhelmed by too much mediocre advice. So what Joe does is helps them develop effective strategies, attract and retain clients, and focus on what truly matters to build strong, sustainable business

foundation. And working with Joe, you experience real growth and success and practical steps in a supportive community. Welcome to the show, Joe. How are you? Joe Buzanini I am too blessed to be stressed. Thank you. Pete Slauson Too blessed to be stressed. You let that in in the green room. I loved it, man. It's a, you should have a coffee cup or a t-shirt that says that. Got everybody at church saying it. Ah, that's probably a good place to have it. Let's talk about, bada bing, bada boom. Let's talk about what's inside your, we want dot coms actually. Let's get the dot coms out of the way.

Give us your dot coms on where people can find you on the interwebs. Yeah, I'd say the easiest place to find me is employeeescapeplan.com. I have some other sites, but that's my program where I help people start a business from scratch, where I help you get job liberation. I transform employees into entrepreneurs so you never have to go back to a soul-sucking job. What's wrong with soul-sucking jobs and working for the man? What's, what's, what's wrong with that? I'll tell you what's wrong with it is you're not truly self reliant. You're employer reliant. We've created a culture of people that are not self reliant, they're government reliant, charity reliant, job reliant, spouse reliant, family reliant. And

I think there's just some superpowers there. There's something really magical about your ability to go into the marketplace and give value to other human beings and have them give you cash. Pete And have them give you cash. I like cash. I'm all in about the cash. You know, it's, there's a lot of, what are some of the other benefits that come with being an entrepreneur or working for somebody else? Chris I think there's three reasons. You know, if you do it right, you, number one, you make money, of course. Money. You had me in money.

Yeah, it matches everything in my wardrobe clashes with nothing. But you also get a chance to do meaningful work, you know, I think a lot of times in the normal job world, we are in a business by default. We don't get to use our full magic. When you're in your own business, you can do meaningful work and you can bring a lot of your magic to the table and transform lives. I think the third thing is you have an opportunity in your own business to have freedom. Live life on your own terms. Schedule your day on your own terms instead of being somebody else's servant. Oh yeah.

I mean, it's really nice that you can, I mean, if you're, if you're successful in making money, you can usually pull funds or paycheck when you want, you don't have to sit there and be like, Hey boss, can I get like a, can I get like a advance or anything? You know, you can, you can just go ahead and, and deal with the other thing. So go get another customer, go get another customer. You know, if you, yeah, if you want to make more money, you just go work harder and smarter and get more customers. You know, that's, that's the other way to do it. You know, you have it. We have a job, you get a payday maybe once a month, once a week, you know, but if you close five sales in one day,

you can have five paydays in one day. Oh yeah. That's kind of a plus. So basically, there's a lot of freedom and there's a lot of self-actualization too. I mean, it's one of the most challenging things I think anybody can do, but it's one of the things that will, it'll grow you up and make you self-actualize and self-accountable in a lot of ways that nothing else will. Like it's, maybe kids will make you self-accountable, I don't know, although I haven't seen a lot of self-accountable parents, but that might be another problem. We don't know that we have. Yeah. It's the ultimate personal development laboratory is your own business. I like that. I like how you put it. That makes way more sense. And yeah, it's basically,

it's basically a way to get stuff done. So you help consult on this. Tell us, walk us through the book a little bit more. I mean, you talk about why entrepreneurs, where they come to creativity. What is that creativity help that makes it help for just making good products and of course, changing the world actually? You know, you look at what Steve Jobs did with iPhone, he really changed the world. You know, I think first of all, I think we're all self-employed, whether you want to admit to it or not.

And if you have a business, you got 100 customers, you lose one, you're self-employed with 99 customers. If you have a job, in a way you're self-employed, you do have one customer called your employer, even if you're unemployed, you're self-employed with no customers. So I think the first thing is being an entrepreneur means you have to look in the wall, in the mirror,

and say, you know what, I'm responsible for what comes in the door. And you know, a lot of people think that it takes money to make money. I just don't buy into that. That's certainly one way, but it doesn't take money to make money. It takes customers. And if you can serve somebody today and get compensated today, you can make money today. And I think that a lot of times what we lack in resources like the cash, we can make up for in resourcefulness. And I think that's where the creativity and innovation comes in is our ability

to say, okay, there's other people out there. We live in a world of problems. There's two kinds of problems. The ones people will pay to solve and the ones they won't pay to solve. How can I solve somebody's problem and get paid for it? I made coffee mugs up for my clients. It says, I will solve your problems and you'll pay me gratefully and generously. And if you're not grateful and you're not generous, you're not my client. Out the door, out the door with you. Yeah, I, I, I get it.

It makes sense as to, as to how this works. In what ways, what services do you offer where you sit down with people and help them through this? You know, I'm a pretty much straight up business coach. I do help people. Half the people that I work with over the years are already making three or five or seven hundred K a year and they want to get to the next level. But for the person that's an employee and they want to start a business from scratch,

look, if I'm going to help you leave the job you don't like, let's number one, let's make sure we don't build a business that you don't like. Let's make sure that we create happiness as like, let's make it so that you wake up every day saying I love what I do and I'm good at what I'm doing. I'm using my superpowers. The other thing that I do is I think, we know nine out of 10 people fail in business,

but not on my watch. So I've engineered a process to help people start a business from scratch and, and have success, I'd say almost every time. And the first place we start, first place we start. Number one reason people fail is they're not in the right business in the first place. They're not in the right business for their personality. So choosing your business wisely is step number one. Cause if you don't get that right, nothing else matters.

Nothing else matters. Yeah, it's really important to choose the right business, one that works for you as well. And yeah, you've got to be able to decide what you want. You know, a lot of entrepreneurs fall into the business. They fall into the business because they discover a product or service that they try and they think it sucks or they could do it better. They look at a widget or a coffee cup or a paper clip and they go, oh, this is kind of okay but I think I have some ways or ideas that I can make this better. That's really the beauty of what it is. Then they tend to fall in love with what they do and how they do it. And I think that deepens their experience and their contributions that they can make

to the world. Jeffery Maybe, maybe. I will respectfully kind of disagree. I think that's a mistake. My mentor was a guy named Jay Abraham and he said, big mistake people make is they fall in love with their product or service, but what you really need to do is fall in love with your customer. And so instead of starting with a product or service, say, who is the human beings I want to serve? What problems do they have?

They pay to have their problem solved, and then I can match the various products and services to them to solve their problems. Because without that human being customer, you don't have a business. You know, a lot of people, they say if you build a better mousetrap, they'll beat a path to your door, but it's not true. If you build a better mousetrap, if you don't have customers, you end up with a garage or warehouse full of empty, unsold mousetraps. And I've noticed people who've ended up that way. Oh, and so you work with them, you coach them, if they're in a position where they're currently working for someone else and like, Hey, they reach out, they go, Hey, I want to,

I want to get out of all the stuff I'm doing with being an entrepreneur or being a working for people help me figure out, do you help them find the business? Maybe they're good at getting into or something that might be a good fit for them. they might be. Yeah, that's the first step is I have a program called Business Wisdom Quest and I actually have a proprietary process. I call it asset sculpting and value sculpting. It's kind of a four step process. It's the explorer, the artist, the judge and the warrior. We explore what's the raw materials you have to work with.

What are your skills? What are your talents? What are your passions? What are you good at? And then number two is we put on the next hat, which is the artist, and we start with two or three or four blank canvases. What does your dream business look like? Let's come up with two or three ideas and put them side by side.

And then once we have some good ideas on the canvas, then we put on the third hat, which is the judge. We discern. You've got to choose wisely because we don't want you bouncing from one business to the next. We want you to choose one that you can do for hopefully many, many years to come. And once you've made that wise decision and know it's viable, then the fourth hat is the warrior.

Then we go out and start building it. That's the way to do it right there. And so, finding something you love is really important to me. I've talked a lot about a lot on the show, because I don't know, I've created over 27 different companies and I really didn't love any of them. I love being the CEO. I love being the innovator. I love being the investor, but I really didn't love any of them. And it really became a struggle for me to show up every day at work.

I imagine people that are employees, you know, they probably struggle with every day showing up and dealing with that issue. But it was definitely, it was definitely hard for me to get used to it. I mean, what do you advise people on that sort of front? That's step one, you know, if you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong. And there are plenty of people that have made a fortune doing things fun.

You know, if I look at, it was that guy, Tony Hawk, Tony Hawk's the skateboard guy, you know, he made, he made, but I don't, I don't know how much, but tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. His passion was skateboarding and he raced in skateboarding. I think he loved doing that. He came up with his own line of skateboards and merchandise and they ended up making video games around the guy. But it was around his passion. He was so good at skateboarding. You can actually build a business around something you love. Another one of my clients is a guy named Sumed Chatterjee

he's in India. And we were going through the whole process of what's the right business for you. And he had a master's degree in creative or coaching psychology from a university in London, very bright guy, but he wasn't making money. He goes, what do you love doing? He goes, I love getting into the flow state. He goes, you mean I could build a business doing the thing that I love doing the most?

And I'm like, why not? And he started the Flowzone Academy. He started publishing articles. Next thing you know, he's like one of the world's biggest experts on getting into the flow state. So yeah. I think we've had him on the show. So I'll have to check on that.

Getting in the flow state and all that good stuff. So as it were. Yeah. Finding something you love makes all the difference when you show up for work every day. It really does. I mean, if you can find something you're passionate about, I really tell entrepreneurs try and find something that you love, that you're passionate about, that you can show

up every day for. Because man, when you're going to show up for something, you're just not that interested. I mean, no matter how much money it makes, no matter how successful it is. Chris, I get these calls, you know, hey Joe, I just made the first sale in the business you helped me start. Hey Joe, I'm making enough money in the business you helped me start. I was able to get my notice to quit my job today. Wow.

To me, like that fills my soul. When I put my head on my pillow at night, it's like, wow, I did something good. I changed somebody's life. I helped liberate them from their cubicle and help them become more self-reliant as an entrepreneur. It feels pretty good to know. It's great if you can make a dollar, but it's even better if you can make a difference. Yeah. I mean, making a difference, that really helps in people's, in what they're trying to achieve. So you, I mean, one of the things about starting a business, do you help them hire assistants, mentors, attorneys, help them plan out what

format of business they should use, sole proprietorship? No, no. You know, I think a lot of people, you know, you go to the small business administration, you know, how do I start a business and they'll have you go spend a bunch of money on setting up an LLC and getting legal stuff done and account. It's like, you know, you're spending a lot of money. You haven't even gotten your first customer yet, you know, so it's a little bit of a chicken egg thing. It's like, let's prove your concept.

You know, I've kind of this nine step process and, and, you know, after you get all nine of these steps working, then maybe you'll go up and set your corporation up. But first one is choosing your business. Second one is, you know, establish your brand. What do you stand for? And the third one is come up with your, your primary offer. What are you selling? Like don't go out and do a bunch of legal stuff if you don't even have something to sell yet. The fourth thing is become a good storyteller around your business. Nobody wants to hear another advertisement, but everybody likes a good once upon a time. And then you need to find a way to generate leads, get

people to raise their hand. And then you want to have a way to nurture those leads. And then finally, third, the final three pieces are you want to fill your calendar up with people that are warmed up. I say it's better to kiss a girl who's leaning into you than try to kiss a girl who's leaning away from you and the same thing's true in business. And step eight is you know you want to get good at closing sales and receiving cash and then final step is deliver the goodies because when you you know client results is the new marketing if you help people win in their life because of the things they hired you to do you'll get that

repeat business, the referral business, the testimonials, all the good stuff. So when you get all that stuff working, then go out and go talk to your attorneys and your accountants and your CPAs, but actually make something that works before you start throwing money down the sewer. I like your thing. Make sure the widget works. I mean, that was one thing I learned in business early on is make the widget in the smallest,

cheapest format you possibly can, see if it works or if it has commercial viability. There's a lot of people who do that. They build the apps or they build different things and they don't test to see if there's really any need for it. And I've seen people do that with apps and I had a good friend who actually was on the team that built the iPhone. He built an app that when I, it was, it was kind of like a, how would you describe it?

It might've been a WordPress killer, but basically it, it allows you to design things. But when I, when I sat down with him, I go, okay, I'll hand it to me. Let me play with it. And he's like, no, no, I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to explain it all to you so you understand it. And I'm like, well, you just... It's paperware, it doesn't exist yet. Yeah. You just explained that. He's going to show me on the computer. But the problem was, is he just failed the intuitive test. So if you can't hit it to half an idiot like me, and within a short while, I can make sense of it. Now I review products. So I purposely don't read instructions, just to test the

intuitive of a product and how easy it is to use and utilize. I obviously don't buy anything from Ikea. You know, he, he, so he says, we're, I'm just going to spend a half an hour explaining it to you and I'm like, dude, this isn dude, this isn't a product or service you want. You can't go around and explain a 30 minute instructional video thing to each one of your prospective clients. This is insane. Yeah. It should be easy to understand, easy to buy, and easy to use. Yeah. And it ended up failing. So you advise over 4,000 business owners in over 400 different industries. You've helped them grow their existing failing. So you've advised over 4,000 business owners in over 400 different industries, you've

helped them grow their existing businesses. So you not only work with people that are looking to go from being employees, you're looking at you to help people get unstuck from maybe whatever they're doing in business. Yeah, yeah. That's, look, my story is I've been an electrical engineering background, I did that for decades, made a million, lost everything in the late eighties. But I ended up getting mentored by a guy named Jay Abraham. And I transcribed decades of his marketing think tank audio recordings. And those all went into the Jay Abraham marketing encyclopedia. And in 1999, I said, Okay, I'm no longer a

tech guy. I'm a marketing consultant. I started coaching existing business owners. But I kept running into people that said, I don't have a business. I'm not making money. I have a job. I hate it. And I wish somebody would teach entrepreneurship the right way. And nobody really is and prayed about it. The answer I got back from God is if you don't help people start a business the right way, no one will.

Cause there's not a lot of money in helping people start from zero. Now I do charge fees for what I do, but I just feel if somebody really wants to be mentored and get it right from the beginning, we can do that and we can really mitigate the chance of failure, you know. And I like what Warren Buffett says, risk comes from not knowing what you're doing. You know what you're doing, it's not so risky. Pete Larkin It's a good point. It sounds like a lot of stuff that went on in my life.

And I noticed on your website, you have a thing called the phases, you have about, I think it's nine phases here. Do you want to walk us through some of this so people can understand it? Sure. The first one I think we covered pretty good, which is choosing your business wisely. The second phase is, there's three major phases, the do what you love, share the love, receive the love. So, choosing your business wise is the first one.

The second one is branding. And branding comes, branding is the impression that you leave in the marketplace. And it's also a reflection of what do you stand for. Seth Godin wrote a book called Tribes and he says, there is no leader without a tribe and there is no tribe without a leader. And the highest paid person is the tribal leader. So we don't follow a person, we follow a cause. So really good question is what do you stand for? And if what you stand for is something powerful, then your tribe will align with you.

And then the third piece, third piece has to do with brand offers. You know, you need to have one good offer. What's your primary offering that you can, you love offering it, they love buying it and you love delivering it. And hopefully you're charging enough money that you can make a living. So when I work with a new person, I like to get them to sell something in the three to $5,000 range. Because if you only make one to two to three sales a month, three sales of a $3,000 service is 9K a month, you know, three sales of a $3,000 service is 9K a month.

That actually that's, you know, 5K in America is like kind of breaking even. 10K in America is kind of like starting to get ahead. And so let's get you making your first 5K a month. And then we aim for 10. And then after that, we start shooting for 20. So those are the first three pieces. And yeah, it helps get into this stuff. Choosing the right business is important.

If you don't have that fit, if you're not doing what you love, if it doesn't make sense for you, if it's kind of against what you really feel you want to be doing, you can go work for an employer and get that sort of experience. If you want to pick a paycheck and be miserable, that's available. Exactly. That's always available for you. So you can fall back on it anytime you want to pick a paycheck and be miserable, that's available. Exactly. That's always available for you. So you can fall back on it anytime you want. Your branding represents what you stand for is FACE2.

You talk about the brand love. So it's about building the story, I think, behind that? Well, story is another part, but let me give you an example of branding. Not necessarily popular, but he's the president of the United States now. Not everybody likes the president of the United States, but that thing that he stands for MAGA make America great again That's that's the result of a very powerful brand MAGA is not Donald Trump. Donald Trump is not MAGA, but people like you know what? I don't necessarily like the guy but I like the idea of making America great again versus making America sucky again

And so because he stands for that, and I don't want to go down a political path here, but by having a strong brand, I think that's something that really helped him win the highest office in the land. Pete Slauson Oh, yeah. I mean, you're looking at, what is it? I just thought it was funny what you said, make America worse. Although, I don't know, everybody seems to do that. But you know, we like to have fun in this world. Yeah, so what is some of the big struggles you see in current employers? What do you see them, guys who already have their business and what are they usually struggling

with usually? I think the biggest thing is making sure that you have an offer that resonates. That's certainly if you don't have a good offer, you know, when you go to somebody like FedEx, they, you know, when it absolutely positively has to get there overnight, it is their branding, but it is their offer also. We can get it there overnight if you really want to get it there overnight. So you need to have a good offer. I think the second thing that people don't,

that they really struggle with is generating leads. Too many people are chasing, they're being the desperate sales guy, they're making 200 calls a day. I don't like to chase people, I like to attract people. And I like to teach people how to attract people. We see this movie, Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, everybody wants the Glenn Gary leads, you know, oh,

guess what the Glenn Gary leads are come from nurturing, you know, you gotta what and you think about it, everybody wants a lead. But what is a lead a lead is a human being that raise their hand. Okay, so I like to think of it as hand raising, you can get somebody to raise their hand, they're showing some interest. And so a lot of people don't necessarily think in those terms, they just want to stack a piece of paper that I can call them people are going to buy. But if we really understand that, you know, if I could show you a way to make the Chris Foss

show, you know, generate an extra, you know, $100,000 a year, would you be open to taking a look at, you know, if you raise your hand and show interest, okay, he's not necessarily a buyer on a scale of one to 10. He might be a two or three or four, but I've at least got you to raise your hand and show some interest. I want that little slight leaning into me. And I think the third thing is people suck at is they don't know how to make sales. They suck, you know, I was just watching an old reality TV show where they sent all these people into the streets and they had MBAs and you know, from prestigious schools and their first assignment was to go sell lemonade. And my goodness, these trained business school

experts could not sell lemonade, okay? And so we've got to learn that skill for the persuasion side. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. But I think if you have a good offer, and you can generate leads, and you can close sales, those are really good fundamentals to get the thing off the ground. What are the things that we need to discuss that you help people do and achieve? I think the primary thing is centered around building a better business. So, you know, there's, there's actually nine drivers in a business.

Okay. And I don't know if I'll get all nine off the top of my head, but you know, there's marketing, there's mindset clearly, you know, if you don't have the right ideology, if you've got baggage around money, that certainly could be a limiting thing, but if you have healthy money beliefs, that could help a lot. Marketing, distribution channels, you know you're trying to sell your stuff at a flea market or you trying to sell it through Walmart, you're trying to sell it through country clubs. You want to make sure that your products are in the right or services in the right distribution

channels. You know relationships, you know it's not what you know but who you know who wants to know you and if you're, it's not what you know, but who you know, who wants to know you. And if you're still hanging out with your buddies in the ghetto, guess what? You're going to probably struggle in your business. You're going to have to upgrade your, your circuit, you know, and then there's systems, you know, we need to have the right systems and processes and procedures. You can, you know, you might have a great business, but if you're disorganized, that's clearly a problem. Then business model, if you're

trying to make 10 grand a month and you're selling a $100 service, you got to do a lot of transactions to make a living. You need to have the right business model. There's about nine of them, but off the top of my head, those are some of them. Nice. So as we go out, tell people how they can onboard with you, how they can get to know you better, how can they reach out through your website and do all that. Sure. I think the easiest thing to do is go to employeeescapeplan.com. From there, you can, the very bottom of the page is my calendar.

I do have a free gift. You know, once upon a time I put together a training. I used to charge people $200 to go through this training. It's called Conversations into Cash.. It's called conversations into cash. How to turn conversations into cash. And the whole idea is having the skill to go out, meet total strangers, have a conversation and make a $20 sale real quick. And don't underestimate $20.

$20 a day is over seven grand a year. $100 a day is 36 grand, you know, a year. But the whole idea is how can you have the confidence to do $20,000 deals if you don't have the confidence to do $20 deals. So if people go to conversations into cash.com, they can get access to a video training that I did. It's about an hour long. And so that's a freebie that's available. All right, thank you very much for coming on the show. We really appreciate it, man. Thank you for thanking me.

I appreciate being appreciated. Thanks, Ron, for tuning in. Order up the book, where refined books are sold, resurrecting America's entrepreneurial spirit, a practical approach for creating jobs, and reach out to Joe. Thanks, Ron, for tuning in. Go to Goodreadcom for chest Chris Foss LinkedIn.com for chest Chris Foss Chris Foss one on the TikToker II and all those crazy places in it be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time

And that should have us out