The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Sam Mandel, CEO and Co-Founder of Ketamine Clinics Los Angeles, Expert in Ketamine Infusions, Mental Health Psychedelic Medicine

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

Sam Mandel, CEO and Co-Founder of Ketamine Clinics Los Angeles, Expert in Ketamine Infusions, Mental Health Psychedelic Medicine Ketamineclinics.com Here are some key points from the podcast conversation between Chris Voss of The Chris Voss Show Podcast and Sam Mandel: Ketamine infusion therapy involves receiving low, sub-anesthetic doses of ketamine intravenously in a clinical setting. It is used to treat depression, PTSD, anxiety, and other mental health conditions. Ketamine works very quickly, with many people experiencing relief after just 2-3 infusions within the first week. This is much faster than conventional antidepressants like SSRIs which can take 4-6 weeks to start working. Ketamine has an 83% success rate for treating depression and mental health issues, even in treatment-resistant cases that have not responded to other medications and therapies. The effects of ketamine last for months at a time, unlike medications that need to be taken daily. There are also no major long-term side effects. Ketamine works through different mechanisms than conventional antidepressants. It stimulates regrowth of neural connections and pathways in the brain. It also induces a psychedelic state that allows revisiting trauma and gaining new perspectives on issues. Proper ketamine treatment involves intravenous administration in a clinical setting under supervision of medical professionals, not taking lozenges or sprays at home which the FDA has warned against. Ketamine clinics provide comprehensive mental healthcare including therapy, psychiatry, transcranial magnetic stimulation in addition to ketamine infusion therapy. Ketamine treatment costs around $3900 for a complete series of 6 infusions. Some insurance plans may cover parts of the treatment. Biography About Sam Mandel Sam Mandel is a lifelong mental health advocate & entrepreneur. Sam cofounded Ketamine Clinics Los Angeles with his father, Dr. Steven L. Mandel, in 2014 and has grown the clinic to be one of the most successful and well-respected Ketamine Infusion Therapy clinics in the U.S. He serves as the company’s Chief Executive Officer and is responsible for the day-to-day operations and strategic direction of KCLA, managing its growing staff of 16. He oversees all non-clinical functions, including patient satisfaction, human resources and employee retention, vendors, marketing, public relations, technology, compliance, legal, and finance. Sam also enjoys weightlifting, traveling, snowboarding, and spending time with his dog Banksy.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Doesn't get any better than that, folks. Welcome to the big show. We certainly appreciate you guys coming by.

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TikTok. As always, we bring you the cutting edge, the smartest minds, and everything else. And we'll be talking to a gentleman today who is the co-founder and CEO of Ketamine Clinics in Los Angeles, one of the first Ketamine Clinics to open in the U.S. in 2014, and a leading provider. And a lot of my friends have been talking about this, especially in my Silicon Valley community, but also just everyone online. It seems like there are people that are using ketamine therapy legally as a way to help themselves.

I know another friend of mine is psilocybin. Is it psilocybin? He's been using that for therapy for depression and microdosing it. So we're going to be talking about some of the different psychiatric medication that's in here. Today with Sam Mandel coming on the show, he's a lifelong health advocate and entrepreneur. He's a force of compassion and innovation in the realm of mental health care. And as the co-founder and CEO of Ketamine Clinics in Los Angeles, his journey is one of profound dedication to healing. From the early days of volunteering at a teen suicide hotline to managing one of the world's first foremost

ketamine infusion therapy clinics, he's challenged his lifelong advocacy into transforming lives. In his role, he orchestrates the symphony of operations that make KCLA a beacon of success in ethical care from nurturing patient satisfaction to pioneering cutting-edge technologies. He is a relentless advocate for best practices in mental health. And welcome to the show, Sam. How are you? I'm great, Chris. Thanks so much for having me and for such a wonderful introduction. There you go.

And thanks for coming. Give us a.com so people can find you on the interwebs. Yeah, ketamineclinics.com. That's K-E-T-A-M-I-N-E-C-L-I-N-I-C-S.com. Lots of great information there about the company and what we do. Okay. So sounds good then. So let's see here.

You've got basically started this company in what, 2014? Mm-hmm. And so give us a 30,000 overview of what you guys do there, what you guys recommend to people, what you help with them with, etc., etc. Yeah. So I co-founded the practice with my father, Dr. Stephen Mandel, in 2014. We've been doing this work for a decade now, really exclusively specializing in IV infusions of ketamine for mental health, primarily for depression, PTSD, suicidality, and some, you know, anxiety, as well as some other mental health conditions. And I'd love to get into kind of what ketamine is, what the treatment is, how it works and all that

in a few minutes here. I will add that after a decade of specializing in this relatively new and unknown treatment, we've also added in the last year, psychiatric medication management, just, you know, conventional psychiatry management of people's prescriptions, as well as transcranial magnetic stimulation, or TMS, which is also a relatively newer interventional treatment that's done in the office as a procedure to treat depression, OCD, and some other mental health conditions as well. So we've really expanded to become more of a comprehensive behavioral health center, focusing on evidence-based and innovative solutions for mental health. Wow. Now, so tell us what this ketamine therapy is and how does it help people?

Yeah. So first let's start with what ketamine is. So ketamine is an FDA approved anesthetic. It was synthesized in the 60s, FDA approved in 1970. It's been among the most widely used anesthetics in the world. It's also used in veterinary medicine. So some people know of it as a horse tranquilizer or a cat tranquilizer. But again, it is an FDA-approved medicine for humans. There's a lot of medicines that are used on both humans and animals. So that's one thing some people hear about it, and they go, wait a minute, why you give that to people? Can I load this into a gun and shoot it at people,

just like I see on wild animals of the Africa? Yeah, like a trunk gun or a dart. If somebody's misbehaving or they're just annoying me, they're being jerks on the bus or in traffic or something, I could just take them. Yeah, I'm going to have to recommend that maybe you try just avoiding them, ignoring them, or something along those lines. Don't just stop using the ketamine darts yeah yeah i mean

it can definitely be tempting to do that but yeah i don't i don't recommend it for sure uh i know some people that need some tranquilization oh i'm sure don't we all don't we all yeah absolutely um those are just opportunities for our own personal growth, right, Chris? And you guys are finding there's an 83% success rate of depression, PTSD, anxiety, suicidality, other mental depressions, and health conditions. That's a pretty good success rate, man. Oh, it's remarkable. I mean, there's really nothing else on the market that comes even close to that. And even in treatment-resistant cases. So it works for patients who have not benefited from multiple conventional medications like SSRIs, other oral antidepressant medications,

and other treatments as well. So we see patients when nothing else works and ketamine does work for them because it has a completely different mechanism of action, the way it affects both the brain and the mind. And they make that distinction because there's neurochemical effects going on and effects on the body. And there are also the psychological effects of the treatment because it's a dissociative anesthetic. It's like a psychedelic and actually many ways it really is a psychedelic when it's used in the way we're using it and that can promote really profound healing experiences as well there's one other um kind of uh way that people know of ketamine i wanted to touch on as well one or two and that

is that ketamine is also special k it's a drug that people use recreationally so this is another part of the challenges we have is really the educational gap and helping people to understand what this is. Because people go, what special K? Like that's illegal. Well, no, it's not when a doctor is using this medicine in a professional clinical setting, it's illegal for you to snort it at a party. And yes, they're same drug. That's assuming that you're not getting something that's adulterated, or that's a copycat drug on the street, because you really never know what you're getting. But let's assume it's the same drug. Right.

Or laced with fentanyl. Exactly. But let's assume it's the same drug. Very, very different effects on the person. Snorting it is really not very therapeutic. Having an IV infusion in the clinic with a specific protocol monitored by medical professionals can be extremely therapeutic. And I'll just add one more. Ketamine is also an analgesic. It's a pain reliever. So people have seen that, you know, when they've gotten a shoulder dislocated and

needed to be reset in the ER or getting it maybe instead of opioids for some other types of pain. So it's a very ubiquitous drug. It has many different identities, many uses and applications. And this is one of the things that's so cool and exciting about ketamine. It's also one of the things that causes a lot of confusion when we talk about it, because if you only heard of ketamine through any one of those means, then you're pretty convinced that all the other ones are kind of weird. That's just how we are, right? What our associations are, I think. Yeah. And so it's good to have that distinction that people recognize, of weird that's just how we are right what our associations are i think yeah yeah uh and and so it's good to have that distinction to people recognize because that's when i i was telling

you before in the green room um that uh i would see you know i'm seeing ketamine uh clinics pop up there's one that popped up just close to me and i'm like oh i guess that's illegal now uh you know i've heard the rumblings of all my friends talking about it, but I never really got into it because I just stick to vodka and cocaine. No, I'm just kidding. I don't do vodka. Don't do that stuff, people. Come on. But I think there's some of my friends that used it for steroid use.

Are they supposed to be using it for steroid use, or were they just having a little extra fun? It sounds like they were just having a little extra fun. I've never heard about any kind of benefits to people using it with steroids. You know, vodka and cocaine is an interesting combination. I can tell you it's most likely to bring your mood down, not up. Don't do that. That's a joke, people.

That's a joke. It's their own. But, uh, but yeah, I mean, look, you know, um, there's a lot of medicines that can be really healing that people also misuse, um, or use recreationally, or in a lot of cases they self-medicate. So people are doing it because maybe it is helping them a little bit, um, or to cope or to deal with, you know, trauma or pain. And, uh, that's kind of what's drawing them to it. So, you know, people, a lot of people are using, you know, trauma or pain. And that's kind of what's drawing them to it. So, you know, people,

a lot of people are using, you know, illicit substances. They're not just out looking for their jollies or a good time, though, of course, people do that too. But they're dealing with a lot of pain, you know. But we do, we provide IV infusions in the clinic. It's six over the course of three weeks. Each one's about an hour long. And these are sub-anesthetic doses. These are much smaller doses than what people are traditionally given for sedation. So patients are conscious and awake the entire time. And we make them comfortable in a recliner with pillows, blankets, noise-canceling headphones, a sleep mask. And they have a really meaningful inner journey. And that can look many different ways for different people and even for the same person from one treatment to the next.

But, you know, revisiting past trauma without being emotionally triggered by it, sorting through it in your mind, getting closure, getting insight and awareness, having more compassion for yourself and other people, you know, getting more in touch with your emotions. So you can disable maybe those triggers that you were getting from the trauma because you can, you can learn to process them without going through the motion of them. You can see them and, and, and create a disassociation emotionally from them. Is that a, yeah, that's, yeah. I mean, I think that's definitely a one way of putting it, you know, um, the past is the past, right? It's not going to ever change. There's no way it can. However, our perspective on it can change infinitely, right? At any given time and time and time again, our understanding of what happened, the stories that we tell ourselves about what happened and what it means about us and about other people that can forever be changed and reshaped. So ketamine really helps us to process and then create new understandings that are healthier

and that can help bring closure to the past and also to the current events in your life, right? So it's not all about trauma or the past. It's very much relevant to patterns, negative ways of thinking or being that are affecting you in your life today. There's a lot going on also on the neurochemical side, right? So we have BDNF, which is brain-derived neurotropic factor that ketamine helps to stimulate, actually causing an increase in physical size in parts of the brain, increased dendrite density and connectivity, helping neurons to better communicate, creating new neural pathways in the brain. I mean, there's a lot of really cool things going on, measurably increasing brain function and activity and brain health. So this

is not about just treating symptoms. Um, you know, I hope I don't lose too many people getting too off into the science of it, but I just want to touch on that for those who are interested in it, but there's really basically really cool stuff going on up there that's meaningful, that's healing, that can help us to create new ways of thinking and being by almost like hitting a reset switch on the brain. So it's a powerful medicine. It affects the brain in ways that none of the other medicines do. It also helps to affect the mind in unique ways. So this kind of two pronged approach, you know, is is one of the things that makes ketamine really powerful. In addition to the fact that it works so quickly, it works in a matter of days, which 83% of the time

in our clinic, no long term side effects, none of the side effects of your conventional meds like ssris uh so i mean this is truly the greatest depression treatment available today i mean i really believe so there's no long like i don't have to be on this for you know like i took zola for depression you're back in the day uh probably need to uh i don't know 24 7 along with the cocaine and booze i'm just kidding people that's a joke it's a callback joke just roll with it uh the uh uh do you mix those all in one glass or like how are we doing you're swallowing the cocaine and you're snorting the zoloft or yeah pretty much yeah well you start the vodka and you drink the rest so that makes sense don't do any of this kids where these are just jokes we do comedy on the show yeah i just have to be careful because sometimes I say something and then someone starts a cult over it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's what happens when you're influential. You've got to be responsible. With great power comes great responsibility, Chris. Something like that. That or just really bad gas, which is the power in and of itself. Did you say bad gas or bad guests? What are you trying to say?

Gas. Gas. Yeah, bad gas, especially if I drink milk. Good to know. That's good to know. So, yeah, this is comedy, people. Don't start a cult. So it's interesting to me.

Like, I was taking Zoloft, and I had to take it for a long time. And even then, I had to take it for a month and a half into to get it to kick in the gear and find the right dosage and percentage and stuff. And you're telling me that just like one or two short visits can just get you fixed. We do a series of six over three weeks. Most people start feeling better after the second or third infusion. And so literally within one week, even longer, still, um, modifying the dosages, maybe adding other meds, different combinations. It can be a long-term process. And with a lot of negative side effects, like, uh, loss of libido, weight gain, dry mouth, blurred vision, increased suicidality. I mean, these are all really terrible things that don't help when you're already having

a hard time that are far too common with these drugs. None of that happens with ketamine. And I'll say it's not a cure. There's no such thing, right? But it can give people months. And in some cases, many months of relief before they would need to have any additional follow-up treatment. So you don't have to take a pill every day or even every week. You don't have to come into the clinic every day or even every week after you've completed your series. You might get three, four, five, six months or more of relief and not need to be on other medications. So we actually get a lot of patients who want to wean off of their meds or they're coming to us because they don't even want to take the other meds and they want something that's going to help them. Yeah. And I imagine there's probably not a crash like you have if you go off of Zoloft, Prozac, and MediDepressions.

You can crash hard. I remember my doctor telling me, you know, if you wean off this, you've got to wean off it. You've got to, you know, level off and roll with it. And, yeah, I was like, man, and so I didn't want to crash. This is really amazing. And I guess I see why it's become so popular and people are talking about it. It seems like it's becoming, you know, a very straightforward way to, you know, people aren't, you know, doing whatever they're doing within an alleyway sort of thing anymore. Yeah, I'll say about that.

You know, we were one of the first clinics in the country. When we started, there was really no one else doing this. And then now, fast forward 10 years later, there's a lot of people doing it. And when I say doing it, I mean, a lot of providers offering the treatment. And, and of course, increasingly, more and more people are receiving the treatment. But in terms of the provider piece that I wanted to touch on, you know, when we first started, we really wished that more people would would provide this treatment, because there's such a great need. You know, depression is the leading cause of disability in the United States.

It's a leading cause of disability worldwide. 45,000 people complete suicide every year in the U.S. alone. So this is a real serious crisis, and there's many, many more people suffering of other mental health conditions as well. So we really wanted this to be more widespread because it is truly an incredible treatment. Well, now there's a lot more people offering it who are either well-intentioned, but they don't have the adequate knowledge or experience to do it properly, or who see this as an opportunity to make money and to kind of jump on a trend and exploit people. And both of those people for different reasons are concerning to us. There's really surprisingly few providers out there throughout the country who are actually doing it well. And that's surprising and disappointing, but that's the reality. And I know because I know most people in the space and I follow it closely and I've been doing this for 10 years full time.

So we see what's going on out there. There's also an increasing trend I want people to be aware of and to make a distinction with of at home ketamine use. Because people are prescribing lozenges or trochies to be taken at home. They dissolve their sublingual. They dissolve under the tongue. And you can go to a lot of companies now and order them online. And they'll do a very, very brief assessment, if any, and then set you up to get ketamine shipped to your house and for you to take it

at home unsupervised. This has a lot of risks. And it's really not good care. Good care is a relationship with a provider who's really taking the time to get to know you and your needs and monitor and supervise you during your treatments, being able to adjust your dosing, monitoring your vital signs, making sure you're comfortable, you're safe, all that. So just sending you some stuff to take it home by yourself is really not responsible. And so much so that actually the FDA just, there was a big article that came out this week where the FDA was actually warning against this type of ketamine. And it's unfortunate the article wasn't as clear as I would have liked to see and making a

distinction between getting ketamine in a clinic from a doctor and ordering it online at home. So some people read that article and they got the sense that ketamine wasn't safe, or that the FDA was recommending you don't have ketamine for mental health. That's not the case. And if you go back and look at it, if you heard about this news in any way, just know that it's at-home ketamine, which has become increasingly popular, especially during the pandemic, that they're saying this is probably not a good idea, and we want to warn people about this. But IV infusions in a clinic from a good practice is very safe, very effective. And I just wanted people to understand that. Also, I'll just add really quickly, the root of administration matters. Most of the literature is on IV ketamine. Um, there's a lot of safety and efficacy nuances and benefits of IV versus nasal spray, IM injection intramuscularly,

sublingual dissolving under the tongue. These are all the different ways that you can receive ketamine. They're not all equivalent. So let me ask you this, and I'm sure people in the audience are thinking the same thing too if i'm in the audience listening this how do i know if you know what levels of things that are uh bothering me maybe you know maybe i think i have some depression you know i'm sure people know if they have psd or very deep depression. But at what levels do people, if they're listening out there, go, maybe would ketamine therapy be right for me? Yeah, that's a good question. So we have a free depression assessment on our website.

Take five minutes and fill that out. That's one way. Another way is to just talk with a mental health professional and get their assessment of you. As far as your own assessment, I mean, look, typically, if you have a low mood, it's really affecting you and your quality of life that persists for four to six weeks or longer than six weeks, you should really seriously consider getting some help. That doesn't mean you need ketamine, doesn't mean you need meds or anything, but you should talk to someone. We all have difficult times in life. We have losses of loved ones, stress at work,

world events like some that are going on today that are extremely upsetting. And it's natural and normal to have a low mood or challenges with your function for a period of time. And that happens to everybody. But when that starts to persist for, you know, like I said, four weeks, six weeks, and it's not getting better, or it's really severely affecting your ability to just do basic things to take care of yourself and those that you care for, it's a problem that needs to be addressed. And it's better addressed sooner rather than later. Now, some people hear about ketamine and they think, well, that's only for seriously, severely depressed people. That's a really like far out thing to do. And I'm, you know, I can't do that unless I'm real bad. Or that's for suicidal people only the sick, you know, sickest of the sickest mental health wise.

That's just nonsense. And that's a lot of that was what people really thought in the beginning when the treatment was particularly new, but not as much anymore. But again, some people still view it that way. And I just want to nip that in the bud because you don't got to be at the end of your rope to try this. We see a lot of patients who are more moderately depressed, or even in some cases would be considered it's more minimal. But if they're really not living to their full potential, if they're not happy, if they're not feeling good, and not just surviving, but thriving in their life, then they need an intervention. And this is a really valid one. There you go. You know, like I said, I've been hearing more people talk about

it and geez, an 83% success rate, a, uh, um, where people don't have to take it for long periods of time. I remember I, I didn't like taking Zoloft for a long time and a lot of people struggle with depression medicines for a long time. Then you have to worry about crashing. Um, you have to worry about dying in the right pill. A lot of people have problems with depression meds because they, you know, you got to take them sometimes for a month or two so they can dial in the dose right and they get a patient. They're like, this doesn't work. I remember getting frustrated with my doc and I'm like, this doesn't work. This is stupid. It's not working. Why am I doing this? And he's like, don't worry. You know, when it does kick in,

it did and it'll be night and day, and it was. But this seems like such a better deal. And I like how people can create disassociations for their emotional connects with trauma. We've got a lot of people on the show who have talked about trauma. I noticed on your website, people can book a consultation with you and do stuff with you. Do you consult for, who are your customers? Can you talk to anybody around the nation? They probably have to maybe fly into you, but can anybody around the nation do business with you or are you targeting a certain market? Yeah, that's a good question. So we do provide free consultations and I encourage anyone to

go look at our website and ketamineclinics.com and take a look at the information. There's a button you can just click to book a consult whenever it's convenient for you. You can call us, you can fill out a form on the web. There's no obligation. Any inquiry is confidential and we're just happy to talk to you, answer your questions and see if there's any way we can help. But to answer your question, Chris, we are based in California. We can do video visits for psychiatric medication management with anyone who is located in California. We can only do ketamine in person though. Really hard to start an IV over Zoom. That's true. I've tried it. Yeah. We're still working that out, but who knows, maybe one day. But in the meantime,

people have to be able to physically come into the office in Los Angeles, which is on the west side of town in Culver City. And so that's who we're really we're talking to as far as the IV side of things goes. Same with TMS. TMS is an in office procedure. It's with a machine that helps to stimulate a part of the brain through magnetic frequency. It's not shock therapy. There's no electrocuting involved like with what's called ECT, commonly known as shock therapy. Also a really great new, relatively newer treatment that you got to physically come into the office for. So yeah, I mean, and we have a really great team. There's 16 of us, we're growing. We have, you know have board certified psychiatrists and psychiatric nurse practitioners, physician assistants, registered nurses, and then an admin team for support. So every patient gets a lot of individualized attention and care because we have such a large team to be able to do that and just deliver the best in class care that we're committed to. And do insurance plans usually help with the cost of some of this? Yeah, that's another good question. So we're in network with 10 of California's largest payers. Chances are we probably accept your insurance, but that would be for med management

or TMS. Ketamine is cash pay, comes out to about $600 in infusion with an extra $300 on the front end for the intake. So it's $3,900 total for everything. There's no other charges, not pocket change, but it's not an absurd amount of money either, especially for someone who's trying things or already spending time and money on things that are not working. This has the best chances of working. 83% is remarkably high. And again, no guarantees, right? It's not 100%. It's not, it doesn't work for everyone every time. It's not magic, but it truly is an extremely effective treatment. 83%. That's pretty good. I mean, you figure what you pay for, you know, Prozac or any of these drugs. Some people have to be on it for life and think they do. But yeah, something where you can

get maybe this thing done in one or two episodes and and stuff that would be great yeah i mean look there's people spending you know four or five hundred dollars per visit with their psychiatrist every week every two weeks every three weeks and they're spending you know five hundred a thousand dollars a month on meds you know maybe they're spending spending another 500 or a thousand dollars a month on therapy, maybe all of the booze, food or other substances they might be using to cope. I mean, when you start to really add it up, you go like, Hey, uh, cause a lot of people that, you know, it is cost prohibitive for them. But I really ask people to take a step back and think like, am I spending money on things, whether it's related to my mental health or not, that I don't need to be or that are coping mechanisms

when I could really reallocate that and truly have a chance of getting some genuine, long-lasting relief. We also offer interest-free financing. So people have six months to pay that with no additional cost to them. That's one of the things that we've done. Awesome, Sauce.

Well, this has been pretty insightful. Give everyone your final pitch as we go out and your.com so people can find you guys in the interwebs. Yeah, I think my final pitch is that you don't need to suffer. There are solutions out there. Even if you think you've tried everything, I guarantee you most likely have not. There's a lot of exciting new developments in the mental health field as well with other psychedelic medicines like psilocybin, the active ingredient in mushrooms, MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, MDMA is MOLLE or active ingredient in ecstasy.

There's a lot of really interesting, exciting stuff happening. Most of the people watching this have probably not, or listening, have probably not tried ketamine infusions. So I just want to tell people, I think my message is, in a long-winded way, I'm just trying to say that there's hope. That there's always hope. Don't give up. If you're someone who's suffering from depression or suicidality or another mental health condition, and you feel like there is no hope left, I just want to tell you there is. Don't give up. Keep searching. Keep searching.

Keep trying. Reach out to us. Even if you're not in California, if we can provide you with any information or guidance or be of any support to you, we're happy to do that. So again, that's ketamineclinics.com or 310-270-0625. And again, I'm Sam Mandel. And thank you guys for listening and watching. And Chris, thanks so much for having me on the show.

Thanks for having me on the show. Thanks for having me on the show, too, and coming by and enlightening us with all this amazing data and stuff. It's pretty cool. I don't know, man. Maybe I need to consider it for myself. Maybe I need to consider it for other people. Like I said, I've had people going through issues that I know, and they're trying to, uh, they're trying to, uh, uh, deal with it. And, uh, you know, there's something you can

do with it in the short term or the longterm sounds better. Uh, thanks for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com, Fortress Chris Foss, linkedin.com, Fortress Chris Foss, youtube.com, Fortress Chris Foss. And, uh, let's see see uh with the chrisfoss one on tiktok thanks for tuning in be good to each other stay safe and we'll see you guys next time