The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Seen or Unseen: What Is Your Choice? by Dr Clarence Riggins

Episode Date: December 15, 2023

Seen or Unseen: What Is Your Choice? by Dr Clarence Riggins https://amzn.to/48gpv6B The chapters in the book were meticulously chosen by the author. These are national occurrences combined with personal experiences. I had the impression that all adults at some point in their lives have witnessed something whether good or bad but decided not to intervene. Many of the readers probably have witnessed an unqualified person at work knowing the right things to say and were promoted far beyond their competency. You ask yourself if anyone besides you sees what is going on. Maybe from the book, a reader may gain some information on why he or she cannot seem to keep neighbors. A laundry list of possible behaviors may be of value to peoples other than the reader. From this laundry list, one may become enlightened and may see many of the listings are quite common to where they live. A highlight for the author is the mentioning of Black-on-Black crimes. There is a cry for help, even from the author's point of view. Our leaders are quite aware the problem is quite real, but there seems to be little to no emphasis on solving this issue. Racial discrimination are sensitive words. Many words mentioned in the book may have matured and are past their expiration date. As a Black man, I often believe these words are used too freely, and it seems to be a deterrent to the actual root cause. I did want all readers to know there was never a request for reparations. If there was ever a decision for reparations, what would be the criteria for Blacks with enslaved ancestors? The book also was written to stimulate those who knowingly have information to a solution to get involved and not to accept the encounter as "unseen." To all, our nation is changing-in color, in thoughts, and in protest. Do you see or not see the shift? What is your choice, and what will be your involvement?

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So, I don't know, contact your local return desk. As always, folks, we really appreciate you being a part of the show. We bring you the CEOs, the billionaires, the White House presidential advisors, governors, congressmembers, U.S. ambassadors, TV and print, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalists. You name it, they've been on the show. CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, The Guardian, etc.

You've heard them, seen them, and usually they step off TV, come see us, and go back to TV. And so by doing so, as the elite crowd of the Chris Voss Show, we like to call them, you embark on the Chris Voss Show glow, which is the imparting of all the stories and knowledge that they shower upon you for the the shower hour of the chris floss show i'm just having fun today making up stuff so there you go yes we have another great author on the show with us today he's the author of the latest book who's just came out august 30th 2021 it's called seen or unseen what is your choice? Dr. Clarence Riggins joins us on the show today. We're going to be talking about his book, his insights, and his life. And he certainly has led an interesting one. During the mid-1960s, the city and county that he grew up in was integrated.

He and one of his brothers were two of the first nine blacks who attended the integrated school for the first time in jeffersonville georgia he knew many citizens who were aware of how blacks were treated and seen in life but he they went along with the status quo all the time all the hard times are embedded in his mind though it was only yesterday they attended the school a portion of his writing in the book derives from over 20 years of military service in which Dr. Riggins retired as a first sergeant in the United States Army. His desire to write was further enhanced during his career as a mid-level manager with the United States Postal Service. A true highlight of his life achievements is becoming affiliated with the Kappa Alpha Psi Phi Incorporated. I think it is. Is that Psi or Phi? Kappa Alpha Psi Phi Incorporated. I think it is. Is that Psi or Phi?

Kappa Alpha Psi. There you go. I flunked college. I flunked St. Great, so I didn't make it to college. That's what happened there. And as this book, Seen or Unseen, What is Your Choice, was written, the author's underlying intelligence intentions is to stimulate readers who possess valuable insights and potential

solutions to step forward and contribute, urging them not to turn a blind's eye to pressing issues. Welcome to the show, Dr. Riggins. How are you? I'm doing fine. I am excited and truly, truly glad to be here. And we're truly glad to have you as well. Do you want people to look you up on the internet? I think we talked about on the show, any place you want people to look you up on the internet? I think we talked about it on the show. Any place you want people to look up the internet other than ordering from Amazon or wherever fine books are sold? The only social media that I'm on right now is Facebook. Like I say, I'm working with Blackstone Printed Media in reference to a website. So the website has not come about yet.

So just on Facebook. They keep me on Facebook. There you go. And you can find it wherever fine books are sold, including Amazon. There'll be a link on the Chris Voss show. So, Dr. Riggins, give us your 30,000 overview of what's inside the book, Seen or Unseen. The book, you know, talked about some issues that was near and dear to me.

You know, the first chapter is a nation at large. Now I know at large means a lot of things to a lot of people, but this, it meant to me that we have some things that are out of control right now, you know, and we have people that can correct it and fix it, but they are turning a blind eye it seemed like they do not want to do it you know even as even as we speak of crime you know I know that's gotta be a way you know that we can we can combat this crime you know I am a firm believer you know that if your crime escalate to

a certain level hey you know I wouldn't have no problem with stopping and fritz, you know. You know, let's say, you know, we give it some numbers. Say if it reached, say, 85% or something like that, that's your number. You know, then we can increase, you know, the police presence, stuff like that. But I just think, you know, our leaders are turning a blind eye to it. And people really can't go on with their life unless we correct, you know, the crime. We've got to correct it. You're talking about racial discrimination and racism? Yes.

During the time when me and my brother went to the school, as I stated, he and I were two of the nine. You know, and things were kind of rough. You know, and one thing that I found out during that time that I never knew was that Blacks had odd bus numbers in Georgia and Whites had even numbers in Georgia and white had even numbers in Georgia. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I thought that was kind of like a target because what happened was when we started going to school, they gave us a bus and all nine of us, you know, wrote the same bus and that bus had an odd number. And plus it was older than everything else.

So I just think, you know, that, you know, somebody saw that and that should have been corrected because I think we were a target, you know, just because of the numbers. And so you guys, where are we guys living in at the time again?

The name of the, the town that I grew up in, it's called dry Brent, Georgia, Georgia, Georgia, just a real, real small community. It's probably about 15 to 20 miles south of Macon, Georgia, if you ever heard of Macon, Georgia. That's the largest city next to it. Yeah. So what was it like

going through those times? I mean, was it scary? Was it, you know, this was a pivotal time in America where I believe, was this during the time where John F. Kennedy had sent the military into to, you know, do Birmingham and stuff like that? Yes, about that same time. And also it was during a time when Martin Luther King was active as well. It was kind of scary, you know, I can remember the first day you know and but it but it taught me you know a lot of things you know and and actually coming out of that you know my

brother and i you know both of us my brother he's uh he's a pharmacy he has a doctorate degree in pharmacist and i you know have a doctorate degree in a management so we did so we did learn a lot you know and and when I when I left the school you know after everybody had integrated and I went into the army you know I still had some some funny thoughts but you know the army kind of got me on track because I realized, hey, you got to work with everybody. So I learned that team concept. It was just there were certain things that went on at school. I didn't think we had any representation.

The other teachers saw it, but it happened from time to time. It happened a little bit too much. There you go. How were you guys treated in school? I mean, were the students good to you or polite to you? The first two years, the first two years was actually hard. You know, I can remember the first day, you know, that we got there. You know, they was waiting outside in front of the school floors.

You know, so that was a shocking experience you know and and i have a thought then even though you know i hadn't thought about writing a book during that time but i was thinking you know why why would the officials you know allow them to do that you know they probably knew we was under enough pressure as it was but as time went by you know i believe it or not you know we you know we gained some you know we gained some friends you know then we found out hey you know we can you know we can get along because my brother my brother and i we were both on the basketball team and we played baseball you know so that was a team concept you know that kind of worked some things out for us

there you go you know i when i was a kid i used to look at the photo there was a bunch of cards that were being sent to me for history stuff and i would look at the the photo of ruby bridges i think we tried to get her on the show she put out a book recently a while ago but of ruby bridges and i would see the hateful uh viciousness of just the faces in the crowd that were so against her and integrating schools. And I always wondered what that was like. I mean, intense bravery and just people spewing hatred at you, you know, doing, you know, throwing things at you and everything else. And so it must have been a pivotal time to grow up in during that era. And I imagine it shaped you in a lot of different ways.

Oh, it did. It did. It did. What was it like for your family? I mean, were you the first to go to school growing up? What was your family like in growing up? And how much did school make a difference for you? You know, actually, I grew up in a large family.

That was actually 12 of us. It was eight boys and four girls, you know, and so being so large, you know, of course, you know, the ages, you know, really had some span in it. But me and my brother, he was two years older than me. Now, he was the second one to go to college. My oldest brother was the first one to go. Now, he was the second one to go to college. My oldest brother was the first one to go to college. He was the first one to go to college. He was a teacher.

He was a military officer. And he also taught high school and college. And my other brother, he was the second one to go to college. And he went to Florida A&M. And then he went back, you know, to get his doctorate degree in pharmacy. Now, I did not start college right after high school. I started college when I was in the military. And actually, you know, when I started going, you know, I think I spent probably too much time in college, to be honest with you.

You know, you got to find what you like, right? You got to, and people, you have to find what works for you. And sometimes it takes longer than other things. There's a lot of people that go through college really quickly and they don't like what their degree is. And, you know, then they're going to flip it all around. So, I guess, so what made you want to get a doctorate? My oldest brother, you know, during the time when he got his commission in the military, they were recruiting blacks.

And actually because he had a master's degree, he was automatically given the rank of a O four in the Navy, you know, which is a Lieutenant Commander. And it's of course a, a major in the army. And, and so, so he, you know, used to discuss that with me all the time. So, Hey, you know, you, you're, you're in the military, you plan on staying, you know, what you need to do. You need to think about college.

You know, but believe it or not, I had a two-year scholarship, you know, when I finished school. But for some reason, I just wasn't ready. So I just decided to go to the Army. But later on, and that was a manager that I had. He was a senior noncommissioned officer that I had. He was a senior non-commissioned officer that I had. And when I was stationed down at Fort Benning, what used to be Fort Benning, he told me, he said, hey, look, you're in a good position right now. You don't have to work at night. You don't have to work on the weekend. And I'm advising everybody under my leadership to start school. And once I started, you know, it was history from there.

There you go. There you go. So you live your life. You've been living it. You retired from the military. What prompted you to want to write this book? I used to play, again, you know, some of the things that happened to me, some of the things that I saw, you when i when i when i when i was at the post

office there was there was a lot of things you know that i saw you know like you know bragging people in and i remember i had a manager uh that only had just high school diploma you know but that manager used to always say to me and you have a phd you know and i'm saying wow you know that's kind of that's kind of cruel you know and and that was another part of the seen and unseen i'm saying okay i know we have some managers some upper level managers that see this you know but again you know they're taking that blind eye and won't do anything about it because, because overall, you know, later on, you know, they found out that this person wasn't even qualified and the person wrecked the place. I'm telling you, wrecked the place,

dismantled the place. So in your book, sight Seen or Unseen, give us a good description of what that actually means, because I've got an implication of it, but let's define it if you would. Okay, I'd if I had to add, alright, there are happening going on, whether it's in the world or whether it's in your state, whether it's in your neighborhood, you know, that, you know, that's kind of contrary, you know, to what should be happening.

You know, these people see it, you know, but they, but they make a choice, you know, to, to,

to have a blind eye to it, you know, to make it unseen, you know, when they see racism, open racism, discrimination, that's what you're referring to when you say it racism is part of it but even like even like living in

your neighborhood you know you know when you're trying to keep a keep a good neighborhood you know for example let's say your neighbor comes in and the next thing they do is put up a basketball go okay everybody else sees that, you know, once it starts, you know, it could just start with the kids that live in the house. Next, you know, here, here comes the kids in the neighborhood. And after the kids in the neighborhood, you got, you know, kids coming from outside the neighborhood, you know, and, and neighbors, neighbors see that, you know, but again, sometimes, you know, they just don't want to get involved. They don't want to hurt the neighbors feeling, you know, where the basketball goal is located.

But if it wasn't for the basketball goal, then, of course, sometimes, you know, we could probably keep the neighborhood a lot better. You know, even with, you know, sometimes, you know, you go in the neighborhood and you see cars parked a certain way you know to me that's a that's kind of a indication to you know again people see it you know but due to the fact that I want to hurt anybody feel or they do not want to be involved and then they look at it as unseen you know they won't get involved it may be sometime if if somebody would go talk to these people, you know, then maybe it would be better. Definitely, definitely.

So let's walk through the book. Chapter 1, you open with a nation at large. Talk to us about what you're talking about in Chapter 1. You know, give us a tease out, of course, because we want people to buy the book. Yeah, okay. Yeah, a nation at large. You know, give us a tease out, of course, because we want people to buy the book. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

A nation at large, you know, as I stated, I know a lot of the time when you kind of think about at large, you know, you kind of think about politicians or whatever, you know. But it kind of takes, you know, things that are happening in the world, you know, just like our politicians, you know, for the most part, you know, I feel that they do not have our best interests. And I think, you know, that there has to be someone, you know, that's talking their language, you know, you know, crime is part of a nation that large. Protest, you know, is part of, you you know a nation that large because if if if you have listened here recently you know a protest is is nothing like it used to be you know protest is really kind of turn into to violent situation looting situation and again you know those people, whether it's the law or whether it's our leaders, you know, they see that, you know, but because they want to be so political, politically correct at times, you know, they they just let it go.

You know, there's a lot of things in the United States right now, you know, that should not be going on. And I know it can be stopped, you or it could be curved you know but again you know we let it stay at large and we don't do anything about it because because we don't want to hurt you know people feel that or you know maybe they don't want to fix the problem deep down or address it or looking in looking in the in the eye and say we have a problem it's easier to sweep it on the table and not think about it than than to try and fix it maybe yes i think so in in some time you know i think that's how they maintain the votes and stuff too you know because often as a part of a nation at large you don't often wonder you know hey you know we say these politicians are so bad you know but they get

re-elected you know year after year after year the same one doing the same thing yeah evidently people support the way they behave that seems to be some of their interests and some of the different politicians that are out there. You talk in Chapter 2 about school integrations and reparations. Talk to us about what you're conveying in that chapter. Yes. As I stated earlier, my brother and I, we started at the integrated school invisville, Georgia, the first year. And today, you hear a lot about reparations today. But the thing is, as I listen to these people, if they are not at least a baby boomer, most of them don't even know what it is.

But you hear people asking for a reparation, and sometimes I just think that that's a cop out or that's a way to get somebody to put their attention elsewhere because they did not experience it. And I ask you know what if you're talking about reparations you know what kind of what kind of standards you know what we have i know some of the leaders were talking about reparation you know but but there there is no standard you know yeah i think i was trying to kind of figure it out i know san francisco was working on something and yes people and and so are you against reparations are you for reparations or did you just discuss in the book you know some of the variant topics and issues surrounding it

i say i i say both both ways you know because the thing is, you know, how do you determine, you know, how to pay someone? You know, a lot of these people that are talking on TV, you know, none of that stuff has happened to them. I mean, you know, when you see them protesting or when they're in their group, you know, most of the time, you know, it is a racially diverse group, you know, that's, you know, that's talking about it, you know, but during the time, you know, when my brother, when my brother and I, you know, was going to school, you know, it was pretty much, you know, Blacks alone, Whites alone, you know, and I can even recall, you know, my my grandparents, you know, on both sides, you know, my mother's grand. I mean, my mother's parents and my daddy's parents, you know, they were they were sharecroppers, you know. So, I mean, would that would that qualify?

You know, so I just think, you know, we've got to have some kind of some kind of standard. If you say that you are going to do it, you know, I mean, I don't really buy that, what California was talking about. There you go. None whatsoever. You talk in Chapter 5 about Black Lives Matter. Give us your thoughts on that. Oh, that's one that's not near and dear to my heart, I tell you that. So you're not a fan of Black Lives Matter?

No, I am not a fan of black no no no i am i am not a fan you know for for one thing you know i think the the system was was truly used during that time you know when i was talking about you know protesting you know i think protesting was different you know during the time when they did it you know they collected a lot of money and people saw that yeah that they had lavish lifestyle people saw that and the the areas you know that they hit the hardest areas that they burned and and looted you know they did nothing to replace it yeah and there seems to have been a lot of corporate money was thrown at it. I know that I think some people, and don't go Fox News on me, people, Jesus Christ.

But, you know, they're really obsessed with Black Lives Matter to this day. Whenever I go into my gym, it's like on the TV. I have to hear it while I'm in the locker room. Thank God I don't have to be in there for a long time but you know there was some financial abuse that took place where the donations went to the wrong people or the people misappropriated it I think some of that has been proven in court but it's certainly not indicative I think of the whole thing I think I think I think you know black lives matter came out of that time where there was a lot of abuse going on.

People were sitting in their homes and seeing abuse on TV because of COVID. And there were other different forces going on in the world with very racial administration, saying there are good people on both sides which you know was contributing a lot of it and then George Floyd of course yeah were these some of the things that prompted you to write the book yes now I'm glad she's had some of my joy George Floyd because I did I did want to mention that now yeah I truly believe you know that there's no way in the world you know that that you should have your your knee

on a person's neck on live television you know everybody's seeing you you know i i think that was wrong you know but on the on the flip side of that you know this black lives matter you know i think that they they truly took advantage of that you know truly truly took advantage of that, you know, truly, truly took advantage of that, you know, fundraising. Yeah. Yeah. The fundraise and you talking about 90 something million dollars, you know, and all of a sudden, you know, people are, people are getting paid, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars or, or going on a, a million dollar shopping spree. You know, we see that. But there are people that still, to this day, that donate to that organization and still believe in it.

I just cannot see what Black Lives Matter has done for Blacks. And that's my honest opinion about it. There you go. It looks like their foundation took it took in 90 million dollars in 2020 it's now worth about the the end of the year in in i think in 2022 with 30 million in assets and yeah it's kind of i don't know where a lot of this stuff went but but that's what your feeling is on it and what you think about it. One of the other things in your chapter, you talk about white flight in chapter seven. Tell us what that's about. Okay. A white flight, you know, it's like,

you know, you're living in a neighborhood, you know, neighborhood might start out to be good. You know, like I was kind of taken to neighborhood where I live, you know, for example, the first one, you know, when we got our house there, you know, there were, there was probably a 50, 50, 50 ratio and stuff. And the second one, you know, that was probably 70% white, you know, and 30% black, you know, but as the white moved out, you know, for some reason, you know and 30 black you know but as the white moved out you know for some reason you know it seemed like it would always replace by a black you know and and and i think i said you know we you know we marry each other you know we become good friends or whatever but it still seems like you know we can't live beside each other for some reason yeah yeah it's it's an interesting thing that goes on with the gentrification of suburbs and how they're designed and everything else we had Benjamin Harold on the show who

wrote the book called delusion five families in the unraveling of America's suburbs and they did a deep dive in the history of suburbs and kind of how they're built how they're designed who they're targeted to and then how they you know to gentrify over time and you know go through this whole gentrification process of of different things but it is interesting and he talks about how the racial narrative of how they're actually designed and distributed and stuff plays into what you're talking about. The podcast isn't public yet, for those who are wondering. I believe it goes public sometime in mid-January that we were holding it for the launch of the book.

But yeah, I can validate through what he's talked about and things I've personally seen. You know, it's just one of those things. Can I say something else about it? Yes, please. Or really, you know, I always thought, you know, that as you have neighborhoods in a city, you know, and I would think, you know, that the, you know, city council or, you know, the city's leadership or whatever, you know, would monitor, you know, some of that stuff. But I know, you know, a lot of them, they know the makeup of some of these neighborhoods, you know, but these new, when these new neighborhoods are built, you know, I would, I would hope, you know, that there would be someone, you know, to monitor that and try to find, find a reason why, you know, because I, you know, I would I would hope, you know, that there would be someone, you know, to monitor that and try to find find a reason why, you know, because, you know, I tell anyone, you know, I really don't want to live in just a black neighborhood. You know, I prefer to live in a mixed neighborhood.

And that's the same way I feel about church. You know, I know church is not a part of this, but somebody needs to monitor that, you know, and give a reason, you know, to why, you know, people feel that, hey, you know, if this race moved beside me, it's time to move. Yeah. time it's time to move yeah the it would be interesting to see what the dynamics are between that why white people are moving out and maybe you know black people are there's some discrimination or career things in their career trajectories etc etc maybe that's something that someone should look at hmm I know you know we had a Eddie Glock Jr. on the show, and we talked about his book, Begin Again, with James Baldwin. And we talked about how, you know, real estate redlining by lenders for so many decades had separated us as people living together. And the more it's pushed us apart or the more we live apart from each other the

harder it is for us to understand each other and our struggles and the other the other issue was um i can't remember what it was now i've sidelined off that segue but basically you know it has oh martin luther king of course you know famously, we don't pray together on Sundays in the 60s. And there was a separation where there was the white churches and the black churches. And so you bring up a good point to that, too, and that still seems unresolved to this day, even though that was, what, in the 60s? Yeah.

40, 60 years ago. So what do you hope people come away from reading your book? What do you hope that they draw from it? I hope that the book will kind of help them open their eyes on some of the things that they see. And they turn a blind eye. But I hope this right here is a motivator. I hope it's an eye-opener you know that hey you know

that's going on in my neighborhood or you know what I I see that every day you know but let's do something about it you know I won't you know say you know unseen what is your choice you know hopefully to be one of those books, you know, that everybody want to read, you know, especially adults, you know, to take each one of those chapters and see how these chapters affect their lives. You know, what are they doing, you know, to make things seen versus turning the blind out. You know, you got to get involved in some of these things.

You know, a lot of people that don't want to get involved. And those are the people that I, you know, that I call the unseen folks, but they got, but they got to be a part of this fight. You know, they got to be a part of this solution. Yeah. If you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem. It might have been Martin Luther King that said, the one thing that can allow evil to reign is for good men to do nothing.

I think that might have been him. Someone had said it. So there you go. It's been interesting to have you on the show. Thank you for coming on. Give us your final thoughts as we go out. You know, also, when I was kind of looking up some information, you know, I ran across a picture of you

and a lady called Alexandra Hudson. You know, and it was interesting because the name of it was our civilization, our democracy, and our society depends on that. And I think that's a good fit for seen or unseen. when you get involved, you know, you can change things, you know, whether it be our politicians, whether it be the white flight, or whether it be, you know, what happened to the neighborhood, you know, they just need to open their eyes and get involved, you know, if we are, you know, to change things. Because right now, you know, I think it's going to be a long time before there'll be a, you know, there's a turnaround in our society. And, and,

and I'm hoping that as people read, you know, seen or unseen, you know, like I say, you know, it might be an aha moment for them, you know, aha moment, you know, to, to tell them that, Hey, you know, it's time for me to do something. Definitely. We all have to be a part of the solution. Yes. And work together because the rising tide lifts all boats.

So there you go. Dr. Riggins, it's been wonderful. You have in the show and very insightful. Thank you very much for coming on and tell us your story. I'm so happy. And I mean, I was, I was, I was dreaming about being here last, last night, you know, Thank you very much for coming on and telling us your story. I'm so happy. I mean, I was dreaming about being here last night. And, of course, I was nervous today because I had my computer and everything set up.

I was ready to go. And I said, hey, everything is looking good. And then when I went to it, something happened. My wife saw it saw it too and i saw it and i said hey you know this is seen so we got to do something there you go you got her done yeah thank you for coming on we really appreciate it okay i think thank you truly truly thank you for having me thank you and folks order up the book wherever fine books are sold you can get on amazon there'll be a link on the Chris Voss Show. Seen or unseen, what is your choice?

And remember, the most important thing is that good men stand up and do something and say something. And we say enough with the bullshit. You know, it's time for, you know, their society ills to get wrapped up. So thanks, my ladies, for tuning in. Go to Goodreads.com, 4ChestChristmas, LinkedIn.com, 4ChestChristmas, YouTube.com, 4ChestChristmas, and all those crazy places we're at on the internet.

Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. And we'll see you guys next time.