The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Shamelessly Unignorable: The Playbook by Rob Tillman

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Shamelessly Unignorable: The Playbook by Rob Tillman Shamelesslyunignorable.com About the Guest(s): Rob Tillman is a seasoned professional with nearly three decades of experience in the field of job development, transition coaching, and recruitment. He has an extensive background in climbing the corporate ladder within the aerospace industry, reaching executive levels. Rob is also a certified job development coach, collaborating with international networks like Copy Chief to assist freelancers and job seekers optimize their employment strategies. His new book, "Shamelessly Unignorable: The Playbook," is designed to aid individuals in overcoming imposter markets and achieving the success they deserve. Episode Summary: In this engaging episode of The Chris Voss Show, Chris Voss sits down with Rob Tillman to delve into the intricacies of the modern job market and how individuals can stand out. Tillman’s new book, "Shamelessly Unignorable: The Playbook," is highlighted as a comprehensive guide for job seekers to maneuver through what he terms the "imposter markets" — fields overwhelmed with individuals misrepresenting their qualifications. Drawing from over 30 years of experience, Tillman shares insights on common pitfalls in the job search process and how his concepts can help navigate them effectively. Throughout the episode, Rob Tillman dissects the challenges posed by AI evolution and workforce reductions, describing how these factors reshape job opportunities and heighten competition. Keywords like "AI disruption," "freelancing challenges," and "government layoffs" reflect these contemporary workforce challenges discussed in the conversation. Tillman introduces his "tequila math" and "and principle" concepts, offering a fresh perspective on approaching job applications with sincerity and verifiability, and how to position oneself as an extraordinary candidate in a sea of competitors. Key Takeaways: Rising Competition in the Job Market: Layoffs, AI advancements, and a growing population are creating a saturated job market with less available positions and heightened competition. Imposter Markets: Job seekers face hurdles from individuals misrepresenting their skills and backgrounds, making authenticity in resumes and interviews crucial. The Importance of Being Unignorable: Instead of blending in, job seekers should focus on how they can be remembered and become "shamelessly unignorable" to employers. Engaging Effectively in the Hiring Process: Understanding the hiring manager's perspective can significantly improve job seekers’ abilities to secure positions. Strategic Application Approaches: Targeting opportunities accurately and presenting truthful attributes are more beneficial and preferable to sending mass, unpersonalized applications. Notable Quotes: "Job hunting is like dating…you cannot name the person you must date." "Hiring is one thing that people hate to do. You don’t hire unless you have to do it." "The greatest thing that I can do for anyone is to stop them from doing the things that are killing their opportunities." "The single biggest reason [for failure] is because they may as well put a sign up that says, 'I’m just like everybody else.'" "There are little bitty secrets that when you hear them, you won't be able to unsee them."

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So we've got an amazing young man on the show with us today. Rob Tillman is going to be young man on the show with us today Rob Tillman is gonna be joining us on the show his book is called shamelessly Unignorable the playbook we're gonna get into some of the details of what he does and how he does them there Rob Welcome the show. How are you? I'm doing super fantastic. How about yourself Chris? I am doing excellent as well Give us your dot-coms. Where do you want people to find you on the interwebs? The easiest.com, robtilman.com, robtilman.com, or if they're interested in the book, after we talk a little bit about that, then that's shamelesslyignorable.com. It's just an easy page. They're selling you nothing.

It just has a waiting list for everybody to get on that thing. Shamelessly unignorable, the playbook, less talented, skilled and experienced competition like me uses to land the jobs, clients and contracts you deserve and how to apply it for yourself. So give us a 30,000 overview. What's inside that new book? The easiest way to describe that book is taking away everybody's frustration because there are really two different, two kinds of people in the world

there are people who get super frustrated they cuss fuss and stomp around mad every time they see someone who's less talented experienced getting a job or getting a client or getting a contract and then there's that other person who says how can i figure out what they're doing so I can apply because I'm more talented, more skilled and more experienced. It's definitely an interesting job market right now. It's April of 2025. There's lots of government layoffs that are going on through the new administration. There might be recession coming down the road from some of the tariffs we're seeing.

People need to be prepared to be able to enter the job market and some of the different issues they have to deal with. Can you outline some of those? The easiest way to understand it is right now, there's a three dimensional problem that everybody's facing. So the first problem is what you talked about, like the layoffs. Now I'm apolitical, so I'm not talking about whether things

are good or bad or indifferent, they just are. But the fact is that there are massive layoffs happening all around the place. So within the government, then current numbers show, I just checked that thing out, and it shows something tracking close to about 136,000 government employees are now out looking for jobs, 59,000 which were laid off, and other ones had voluntary. And then you have tech layoffs,000 which were laid off and other ones had voluntary.

And then you have tech layoffs and there were about, coming in from last year, almost 180,000 of those. Then you look into private sector, 275,000 year to date of those people are all interested in the job force. So that's one piece of it. So you think about a three dimensional, think about a triangle. And that's one lower piece of that point. The other piece of that point is there are fewer jobs.

With everything happening with AI and automation, then there are actually a lot of jobs that are being completely eviscerated. They're being wiped off the earth, never to return. So you have all of these people entering the job market, and there are fewer jobs for them. And there's another piece of this puzzle that's actually harder for the people to understand which is so they think I could always do freelancing because

that's what everybody's been taught hey you know what right now just go work for yourself be a solopreneur or freelancer however all of that's also getting harder and harder and harder to do because there's so many people rushing in and there's such a problem, which I like to call imposter markets that they're facing. Imposter markets they're facing. How do you define that? So imposter markets, they've always existed since the beginning of time.

Imposter markets are when you're in a field and there are people who are lying about their credentials or how good they are and they're competing with you. And if there's no way for you to prove who you are, then they don't know if you're lying as well. I mean, think about ChatGBT now. We always joke about the fact that it lies, but what most people do is they now go to ChatGBT and say, make me a killer resume, make me a killer pitch, make me a killer proposal.

And that thing puts it together. They grab it, copy it, paste it, shoot it out and very little of it is true. So the people who are real, they're fighting against a tidal wave of imposters in these markets that flooded and make them get drowned out. Yeah, chat GPT has been the way to do just about everything when it comes to some of that. And you know, you always, you always, when you saw people's resumes, you always had to interview across them because I can't tell you how many times I've been across the table from someone I'm like, so it looks like in June, you June to July, you know, of two or three years, whatever, you worked at IBM and they're like, no, I didn't. And you're like, but you've written it on your resume.

And they're like, no, I didn't. And you're like, no, it's on your resume. Exactly. And then you start finding out their timelines don't match up because they got fired or they embezzled or, you know, I even had one guy, he had two years missing from his, from his resume and most people wouldn't ask about it. So no one noticed, except for me, when I saw it, I was like, there's two years missing on your resume.

And he's, no, there's not. And I'm like, no, there is. I'm looking at your resume. He's, let me see it. I'm like, you don't know what's on your resume? J.C. It's crazy. A.B. He's gone to prison for two years for stealing copper. J.C. Oh my goodness. I have a story just like that too, but I'm not going to jump into that one. I'll just jump into the simple fact that I've been on the hiring side for almost 30 years. You know, you call me a young guy, but I'm definitely not on the young side of this thing. I've been almost 30 years in this world of getting people jobs or being the

guy who actually worked his way all the way up to. And this really where I talk about like in the movie, I'm not in the movie, but in the book talking about like me, everybody asks, how are you able to get these jobs? I'm literally the boss of people who have incredible, they're talking about, they have Stanford degrees. They have degrees from like Caltech. They have crazy things going on in their life. And they're like, how in the world is it you? And I kept telling them it's because you're leaning too much on the wrong things.

And outside of myself and using these techniques then, I've been able to, over all these years, help so many friends and family and coworkers. And then I finally started to take it out to more of the world. And right now, there's so many people who need it because this thing is changing really fast. They need to understand how these imposter markets are destroying them and all the things they keep doing which are completely the opposite of how we on that hiring side of things look at things. And you see you hear so many people you know talk about how they send hundreds of resumes

off to people. I mean, I just think of the work. I mean, I've worked for myself since I was 18. But you know, these people that do the job work, they basically, you know, they send out hundreds of applications. Tell us, why did you title the book the way you titled it? Oh, my goodness. I want you to do this. For the people who are listening to the podcast, they won't be able to see it, so I'm going to talk it out as a demonstrated for anybody who's here live with us. So if you were to grab your hands, do this with me, Chris, put your hands like this, like those parentheses.

And shamelessly, it's almost a whisper. So shamelessly, I put my hands around that word, I go to unignorable and it's all bold and big and it's the playbook less talented, skilled and experienced competition like me. Cup the hands again, use it to land the jobs, clients and contracts you deserve and how to apply it to yourself again, use it to land the jobs, clients, and contracts you deserve, and how to apply it to yourself, again, cupped. The whole reason why I'm doing it is I'm trying to share with everybody the understanding of how this whole entire thing works. There are actually multiple meanings in when you read it. You can actually read it with only the cupped part,

calling it shamelessly, like me, and how to apply it for yourself. Because a lot of people are like, how did you do that? So that's what I'm sharing. I'm sharing how did I do that. And then there's another piece of it, which is just unignorable, the playbook to lend the jobs, clients, and contracts you deserve, because that's

what people want. So it's multiple meanings in it, and it actually plays a lot into how the concepts are unfolded and it also plays a lot to how this thing really works in the real world. That a lot of things you think or a lot of the ways that you've been taught are completely the opposite of the way it works and there are little bitty secrets that when you hear them you won't be able to unsee them but you're going to fight them.

You will literally fight some of the guidance because some of the guidance is going to be completely opposite of echo chambers of social media. It's going to be completely, completely opposite of what you ever learned in school, what your parents told you, what all your friends around you are telling you just like you shared about everybody sent out a hundred Resumes I said if you're sitting out a hundred you are doing it wrong Wow Wow, so tell us about your background. How were you raised? How did you get in the fields that you're in and to where you are now? Going the way that most people think about it like a resume. Let's actually just go in reverse

So for the past three years, I have been completely focused on honing this process and testing and proving it out. So I partner with a guy by the name of Kevin Rogers. He is the founder of CopyCheap, which is the international network for freelance copywriters. He literally has been doing this for 10 years. He's taken people across the seven-figure mark, and it was a great place for him and I to make sure the process has worked and look at it from both sides of the field because he's been working with people who've been trying to get hired for 10 years. He knows

all the psyche, the challenges, and all the problems that they face. What I brought was the person who hires them in that perspective, when we put it together, it became a secret sauce of goodness. And prior to joining with Kevin, then what I did was I actually certified as a job development and transition coach. So I have the ability to take people who, again,

with skillsets and put them into like Fortune 100 jobs. So I was working with one of the pre-minute executive recruiting firms and we tested out the process there and it worked as well. Before all of that, I spent time officially working my way up the corporate ladder to become an executive in aerospace, which is pretty crazy considering where I come from.

And before that, well, the inklings of what set the groundwork for why I do what I do, because one of my first jobs, I worked in recruitment and I help people to get jobs. And by interviewing so many people and working with the employers, it's really a different way of looking at things because each of them is looking only at what they do. Being the third party in interviews, you get to see something that's crazy. Neither one of them see each other. The person interviewing is so focused on the questions they're trying to ask and they know they can't ask the question the right way. That's another problem is people are horrible at interviewing and they ask questions the wrong way and they get frustrated as the interviewer, an interviewee answers the question that they asked.

The interviewee is so focused on what they want, which is, I want this shop, I want this shop, I want this shop. They don't even hear the nuance between the questions being asked over and over again in different ways to try to finally get that answer. So by seeing that from afar and in using that, that was a big secret to how I was able to skyrocket up the ladders because I got to understand how those things worked and I got to see every bit about what people do wrong and oh my goodness, they do so many things wrong. Pete Slauson And you helped them with that in the book.

You list out some of the different things that go on with that and how they can do it better. And tell us about some of the services you offer on your website and things you do for people. Dr. Michael Bauer The greatest thing that I can do for anyone is to stop them from doing the things that are killing their opportunities. I do that in a few different ways. I've been on stages from LA to Dubai. So I preach this message anywhere I can. So I do public speaking and sharing this message for everybody to make sure that there are audiences and there will be a lot of audience that need it. This message I provide mentorship for the people who literally want to understand their

child of being frustrated stomping around cussing and fussing about why they don't get the jobs and we just worry about how they are going to use this playbook to do it. And the other thing I do is I spend a lot of time, because I'm that kind of nerd, I'm a junkie for data because I'm constantly in this battle in my brain. I hate theory. I hate theory with a passion. So I find the facts and figures and everything to support not only my arguments, but whenever I'm working with a client, I find ways that we can push forward how to ensure they aren't caught in those imposter markets with facts, figures, and undeniable proof.

I mean, it's finding a job is one of the most important things you can do especially a good job. You have something you call the three-dimensional problem that makes what you do so important right now. Tell us about what that is. Revisiting that one then that that's that triangle that I started off with and I was sharing about layoffs or any time that people are losing jobs then we mix that with the fact that jobs have always, it's not just now, even before AI entered the picture, there's always been a move to eliminate jobs.

As a matter of fact, one of my earlier positions when I was working up the corporate ladder was outsourcing things to Mexico. I went to Mexico, I went to China, I've outsourced things all around the world and I've seen how those decisions are made and the good and the bad are related to them. Then that third dimension of it is the difficulty because our population keeps growing, period. People keep having these crazy things called more people and as they keep having more people, there are more of these people who are competing for fewer of these resources. And that makes people do things that are a little bit out of their nature, which is when

these imposter markets come up, because they start lying, they start trying to find ways to be better than the other humans that are looking for these positions. What's the single biggest mistake job seekers and freelancers make to make them overlooked before they're considered? The single biggest thing that they do whenever it's about getting jobs is they are instantly ignored. Everybody uses this word ghosted. Right? I get ghosted. I keep hearing crickets, you know, nobody's talking back to me I'm sending my resumes into a black hole. I'm I'm I'm pitching if I'm a freelancer

I'm pitching these services and nobody gets back to me. The single biggest reason is because they may as well Put a sign up that says I'm just like everybody else and if you walk into a room and everybody was wearing gray, and everybody was walking the same, talking the same, doing the same things, what would you do, Chris? I mean, I wouldn't know who to hire. I'd have to try and figure out who the unique people were, or I don't know, yeah, you know, who the people are that are good employees. You hit on something super important. You've hired before, right? Mm-hmm, yeah.

People do not, exactly, people do not realize the problem and the frustration is not on the job seeker side, it's on the hiring manager side. The hiring is one thing that people hate to do. You don't hire unless you have to do it. Nobody says, oh my goodness, I have nothing better to do with my life, so let me just go ahead and talk to random strangers

and figure out if one of them can come and either help or destroy my business. That sounds like the greatest thing on earth, right? Doesn't it sound like a perfect thing to do? I haven't looked at yet what I'm hiring, but that's true. It's a horrible experience, which people only do because they have to do. I haven't looked at yet what a hiring, but that's true. It's a horrible experience, which people only do because they have to do it. And no one really ever takes that time to push back

and think about the horrible experience and the necessity on the side of the person who's doing the hiring. Everybody's just, I need a job. I need to pay my bills. I need to eat. I need to take care of my kids. And they don't ever push back from the table for just a second and realize if you were to take a breath, think about that person on the other side and what is their experience,

it would completely be the game changer. The game changer among game changers is finding out what they won't ignore. And that's what I really focus in on. Are you being the best version of you? Another fallacy of, you know, you, you talked about the single biggest, could I check, could I share one more that is really big? Another big one is people do not show up as who they are. So they've been told,

and I see all of these articles all the time, when it's okay to lie on your resume, when it's okay to lie on an interview, when it's okay to lie. I see them and I have this whole giant stack of them and I just look at them and I just shake my head because they're telling them the complete opposite of what will work.

And it doesn't work for two different reasons. Number one, you started off and you shared about how you look at this resume and you are looking at this person. You say, this is not you. This, what I'm reading is not you. So even if that was the perfect person, what is the probability of you hiring that person if what you see and the person you actually physically get to meet which always happens If they aren't a match

Yeah It's not gonna happen, right? Not gonna happen in in the book. You also talk about something called tequila math. Tell us. Oh my goodness So that's one of the raw abysms. So the book is full of raw abysms and raw abysms Are simply easy ways for you to get the message and to make sure that it sticks. The tequila math revolves around exactly what it is. Tequila math.

So here's how tequila math works in our lives. So if you take a shot of tequila, you say, oh my god, that was fun because you normally take it with people, you're laughing, you're in a bar, you're at a restaurant, and everybody takes a tequila shot, and you're like, oh my goodness, that felt great, and I'm feeling great about this, and everyone around me, we're wonderful. So you say, that was a great way to get the party started. So what do you do? You repeat it. You say, okay, let's take more catecholat shots. Oh man, wow. And I feel even better. So what you do in your brain is you project into the future and you think,

if I keep doing the same thing, the same way, it's just gonna keep getting better and it's not. Eventually there's going to be this moment where not only does it work, does it not work, you actually feel worse than what you started off from. And that's what a lot of people do in their job progression. They got hired, I'm going to use the scenario that I use with many of my clients. I say, if you get hired at McDonald's, you get hired in spite of what you did. You can fill it out wrong, you can fill out the application wrong,

you can misspell your name, you can do so many things wrong, and you will still get hired. Therefore, in your brain, you say, all I have to do is just go and put an application and I'm gonna get hired. So you have tequila math. So then you figure out, okay, they said,

no, you need a resume. Okay, somebody helped me with a resume or find some template, I fill in my name with it. I pass it on. But because I'm young in my career, then they still hired me in spite of what I did wrong. So then I advance. And what happens is I keep on using these horrible

tequila math techniques to advance and I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I said, I know how to interview. I know how to make a resume. I know how to... no you don't because the game has changed because you don't understand each thing we ever do has diminishing returns and at some point they just stop working. There's always diminishing returns you gotta love watching out for that but yeah doing the same thing over and over and expecting and not getting the results

you want, but expecting different results is the way to failure. That's for definitely sure. For real. You talk about replacing problematic O with a powerful A. What does that mean in the book? This one right here is one of those keys that completely changes the game when you get to talk to a person. It's helpful in those first touches, but this one right here is the difference between them trusting you and not trusting you when it comes to an interview or discovery call for

landing a client. Think about this word, Chris. P blank int. If you put an A in there, it's called paint. And that's what most people do in an interview. What they do is you ask me a question, and I start to paint this picture. And you don't know where it's going. You don't know if it's going to be good.

You don't know if it's going to take forever for me to get there. So you get frustrated when you ask someone a question and they start telling you a story. You don't know if it's going to be one minute five minutes or five hours and you start getting anxiety. Oh my goodness. What are they going with this? What is it?

What are you going to do? So it literally destroys your credibility because they stop listening to start thinking about, oh, I got to pick up this and away home. And they don't worry about because they don't know where the story is going. However, if you replace that a with an O, a very powerful O, then what happens is you get to point to a thing and they get to instantly see it. By instantly seeing you know where we're going and it completely allows you to feel comfortable. We believe things in the past. We do not believe things in the present or the future. If I tell you what I'm gonna do you say yeah that sounds

really good. But if I share with you what I've done and I point to it, if I point to an accomplishment, if I point to an achievement, if I point to where I've been, which you can check, all of these things allow you to feel comfortable and to build trust with me. If I start describing something or painting you a picture, I may be Michelangelo or I could be a toddler. So what do you, there's another thing you talk about in the book called the and principle. Tell us about that. The and principle is super simple. Of all those principles,

it's the easiest one for anybody to understand. Most people approach someone with a resume, or they go to an interview, or they pitch someone. When they do it, they say something thinking it means something. And the other person either says it out loud or in their brain says, and an example, why should we hire you I went to

Harvard and and that person says because I was a Harvard they think that someone else understands what that means and what what does it mean I went to Harvard and Harvard's good hard to get into okay and and I got in okay, so and what happened and I? finished and then by that time that person says okay, if you give a person a Situation where they get to four hands and you haven't really answered their question You may as well pull up your arm and salute because you are gone. There is no way they are going to deal with you so what we do is we prepare and we ensure that the answers that we give are truthful but powerful and they leave no

question about and. So if I were to come to you and I said, hey, I'm going to deliver you a playbook, less talented, skilled, and experienced competition like me, use this to land the jobs, clients, contracts you deserve, what is there in? You don't ask hand. You ask, how are you going to do it for me? The greatest words that could ever come out of someone that you're looking to be hired from's mouth are, how can you do that for me? That's not an and. That's an

epiphytal moment where they see a future with you. And instead of the and, which is a sticking point, they're moving on to the, how are we going to make this thing happen? Because you will stop me from the death in hell I'm in, which is called hiring. Pete Slauson And it's kind of interesting how that party wants to get out of it as well, the hiring party. Pete Neal Oh! Pete Slauson It's, I mean, it's a challenge interviewing people and, you know, having that sort of authoritative, who are you and why should

I hire you and give you my money? But it's a big deal because we found out in our businesses that hiring right and spending the time doing multiple interviews made all the difference in hiring the right people. And when we quit just hiring people over one interview and we started having interviews of three or four times, what was really interesting is, is they, you really find out how laid back people get by the third or fourth interview and you really start finding out about them. You know, like the first interview, they show up

in a suit and they're like, you know, they have a very normal sort of, sort of presentation. And then by the third interview, you know, they're showing up in their pajamas with some thongs and they're putting their feet on the desk and they're telling you about their prison time and, and, you know, they're showing up in their pajamas with some thongs and they're putting their feet on the desk and they're telling you about their prison time and, and, you know, the one time at band camp and, you know, they're just telling you all the horror stories that you're like, Oh shit, it's a good thing we had third interview

because we just, you just got laid back enough to tell us what we wanted to know. So what do you think the number one thing is a lot of job seekers fail at today? The one thing they fail at, we've hit on the subject a lot of times just in different ways during this conversation. The number one thing is they kill opportunities. And I use that word not in a small way. I'm being very serious.

They kill opportunities. And that's another Robism where I call it panic pitch. So they see either the perfect job and oh, I have to apply right now. And they send that thing off and they didn't put any thought into doing that right. It would have literally taken them maybe 15 minutes to take a breath, to figure out what would be the best way to approach that right. It would have literally taken them maybe 15 minutes to take a breath,

to figure out what would be the best way to approach that position. But they just panic pitch, oh my goodness, I got to get in first. I have to put it in front of someone. And they don't realize you only get the opportunity either once every six months or once a year to make your bid in that thing. Because the way that the systems are designed now, they see your email address and they actually say, no, this person has already applied. This person already has a resume in our file and they only purge those things

either every six months or a year. And if you panic pitched to your perfect opportunity, you have just blown it. Not to mention, that's what I was sharing earlier about the people who were sending out 100, they are destroying a hundred opportunities either a day or a week because of the way that they're doing it. And then there's this other person who is the hundred pitcher, it's because they're just so frustrated

in this situation and they've just almost mentally given up and they just think that and they've been told it's a numbers game. Just keep shooting them out. Just keep shooting them out. Just keep shooting them out and eventually someone's going to bite. That used to work because people were desperate for people. When people are not desperate for people, when there is a massive number of people versus a limited number of positions, they will not

again, to heal them out again, I can just apply to anything. It's going to work. No, there is a screening process that's happening now. And the people who are just rapid fire throwing these things out, they're killing opportunities. So something important that I share and shamelessly ignoreable and the first thing I share with anybody when I work with them is I understand you're going to feel a little bit of frustration, a little bit of anxiety. never make you wait to apply. However, I'll ensure that you

apply properly and you apply to the right things. When we think about, can I share the greatest analogy about the hiring process? And that may be what helps your listeners the most, because they'll see it through a different lens that they may Never maybe never saw it before and it will completely Send the light bulbs flashing in their heads. That's okay. Yes, please. All right Job hunting is like dating It is completely and as a matter of fact that's where a lot of the conversation go I said consider this like dating now whenever there's dating then it has two sides of the equation and

What you cannot do You cannot name the person that you must date So when I begin with someone, I say, hey, we're going to, you can pick a person and we're going to define all the traits about them, but you cannot, other than the first time you give it to me, you can't give me a name. We're going to take that person's name and we're going to pull all the traits of the things that you want. And we're going to define who is your perfect match because

That perfect match is out there the fact you have desire in your heart for this and it means that Person is out there and most people are not looking at jobs like that If they would look at it like that, they would see oh my goodness that Person wants me because I have certain traits just like that. What you can't do is you say oh no no I have to get this person but you can find the traits and then you start to align jobs that match all those traits and instead of shoot out to a hundred you're gonna shoot out to a handful or a couple handfuls that really match who you are that want who you are that are going to make this thing a match made in heaven

So as we go out to give us a give us a pitch out for people to order up your book a pitch out to How they can reach out to you find out more about the services you offer on your website etc. Etc in your comm alright That leads us to act in this though this were exactly an interview. And we're trying to get somebody to take an action, right? CTA, big CTA, call to action. And what I have to do is make sure that that call to action is right.

But guess what we've been doing for this whole entire time, Chris? We've been doing the little CTA, which is credibility, trust, and authority. During this whole time I've been with you, any of your listeners, they got to understand who I am, things that are fact-checkable about my background, or ways to understand who I am in their world and whether or not we are a match. If we're not a match, great, I hope you were entertained. I hope you were educated and I hope truly, sincerely from my heart, that things work out well for you.

If I am that type of match for you, in other words, we talk about the dating thing and we say, oh my goodness, this guy, he speaks my language. The way he looks at these things, it conforms to what I believe. Then we go into this thing called C plus C minus C equals, give me your money. Which is the first C that I share with you is confirming. What did I just do?

I said, you need to confirm whether or not I'm the right person for you. The second thing is clarifying. So C plus C, the other C is clarifying. I do do not do certain things which I'm gonna talk about in a second But what I did was clarify who I'm for versus who I'm not for I don't tell you you're wrong And I don't try to do the last thing which is minus C which is convinced. I am NOT in a convincing business I don't want anyone who feels they need to be convinced to business. I don't want anyone who feels they need to be convinced to go be on the waiting list for my book to consider working with me or any of those things. I only confirm

that I am making great matches for people who are aligned with me. I clarify whether or not this will be the match they want. I do not get into convincing business. And the last part is they just say, hey, Rob, take my money. And if they want to consider if I'm the right person for them, again, we go back to you can go to my site, robtilman.com, R-O-B-T-I-L-L-M-A-N.com. You could find me on LinkedIn, imn slash robtilman. Or if you're really interested in getting that playbook,

shamelesslyunignorable.com, and you can get on that waiting list. I'm gonna do some special things for anybody on that waiting list who gets on that thing. And when do you anticipate the book's gonna be out? The book will launch on September 2nd, the day after Labor Day. There's a whole lot of reasons behind that.

And of course, it's after all the mass layoffs have started to settle down. It's also when the majority of people will be hiring. If you look at the government layoffs, those people are actually employed through September. So they are on leave and they will be September when they'll be entering the job force and it's after summer where people do not hire very often and people have too many things before that they have to worry about other than trying to get hired. So there's actually some strategy there and I'll reveal some of those things for people in the

waitlist. I'm gonna share with them a lot of these understandings so they'll be prepped for understanding how to hit the ground running with the guidance and a lot of AI tool sets because my background actually has technology in it too. So how to be unignorable in the job market. Thank you for coming on the show. We really appreciate it, man. Appreciate you, Chris. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. And thanks for on us for tuning in. Go to his website so you can pre-order the book Shamelessly Unignorable, the playbook less talented, skilled and experienced competition like me uses to land the jobs, clients and contracts you deserve and how to apply it for yourself. Thanks for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress, Chris Voss, Chris Voss 1 on the TikTokity and all

those crazy places. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time. Great job.