The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – STEP-UP and LEAD: A Guide for Dynamic, Innovative Leadership in Law Enforcement by Sheriff Mike Chapman

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

STEP-UP and LEAD: A Guide for Dynamic, Innovative Leadership in Law Enforcement by Sheriff Mike Chapman Amazon.com This book will first examine how to establish your leadership base. Whether appointed or elected, this book will provide a template on how to appeal to those who have the most influence in helping you facilitate programs you would like to initiate. It will help you understand what you should and shouldn't do to develop these programs, who should be involved in the development process, and how shared investment can positively impact your outcome. This book will detail the Step Up strategy and the importance of assessing your personal status; establishing a vision; examine "leading by example;" discuss group dynamics, workforce synergy and how to break out of the "comfort zone;" discuss servant leadership; address the importance of internal and external communications, to include various ways to directly interact with the media; how to leverage transactional relationships; discuss the source of your "power" as a leader, as well as the restrictions you face depending on the nature of your position; the various obstacles you may face from local supervisors, council members, mayors, or county executives; how your geography and area priorities may impact your ability to enact change or achieve success; the importance of expanding your influence through organizational memberships; how to deal with your adversaries; the importance of data-driven leadership, and to best pursue the best ideas for your organization as a whole, no matter where that idea originated. It is designed to provide state, local and federal law enforcement leadership with a roadmap of how to achieve success within their departments beyond what they would have previously dreamed of, how to develop ideas and initiatives that sell themselves; how they can garner the support of the boards, councils, senior executives, elected officials they serve and organizations they are associated with; and how they can get the people they serve, the voters and constituents, on their side. Finally, disloyalty, subterfuge and treachery will also be addressed. It is critical that you have a true support network, a tight circle of confidants who you can bounce ideas off without the risk of that information being compromised – people that believe in you, know what you stand for, will provide you with honest feedback, and will stick with you through thick and thin. It will describe, in detail, the STEP-Up philosophy (improved Service, Technology, Efficiency and Professionalism), conduct a deep dive into its critical elements, and provide guidance on how to design specific goals using the STEP-Up strategy. It will provide measurements for success in the respective categories and discuss how you, as a leader, can leverage these successes for even greater future successes. It will also address the need for and ability to conduct public and media outreach, where to obtain expert help to develop greater confidence, and provide a template for media success. If you are an elected official, this book will provide you with the insight and innovation you will need for re-election. If you are an appointed official, it will provide you with the insight, power and influence that could help you keep your position or advance to the next level.

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bookstolifemarketing.co.uk with expert publishing to strategic marketing. They help authors reach their audience and maximize their book's success. Anyway, we have an amazing young man on the show. We're going to be talking about his book on leadership. My favorite topic as always. It is entitled, Step Up and Lead, a Guide for Dynamic Innovative Leadership in Law Enforcement. Now, May 6, 2025 by Sheriff Mike Chapman. And I just like to clarify, since we have an officer on the show that it wasn't me, I didn't do it. Whatever it was. So we'll get into it with him. We'll talk to him about how to provide better leadership and law enforcement. Of course, you'll learn how to, you know, a lot of leadership things continuum over lots of different subjects. Leadership is

leadership when it comes down to it. So we're learning a lot one way or another. Sheriff Mike Chapman is a 46-year law enforcement veteran. He served seven years with the Howard County MD Police Department in the divisions of patrol, SWAT, and criminal investigations. Once again, I didn't do it. With the US Drug Enforcement Administration as a special agent, he served in Miami, Florida. Well, that's a place to be in the drug enforcement industry

I saw a scar face a couple times He's done Karachi Pakistan Tampa, Florida McLean Texas McLean yeah McLean there's like a weird L in it or I in it on the type of here South Korea Seoul Korea I should say and as the DEA HQ Chief of Public Affairs. He's been all over the world, folks, doing law enforcement. So welcome to the show. How are you, Mike?

Mike Fahey, MPH, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS, DHS Mike. You can call me Mike. You can call me whatever you want. I get called a lot of things. Well, I'm sure you do. I watch cops a lot. So I've seen officers call those sorts of things, but that's usually before they put them in the clink. So, you know, all's good what comes around

there. So give us your dot coms. Where do you want people to find you on the interwebs and stuff? Well, you can get stepupandleadbook.com. That's our website that's out. My email address is michael.chatman2011 at gmail.com. It's actually in the book. So if you buy the book and you wanna make a comment or reach out to me, you can certainly get it on Amazon and make your comments there. So far we've had all five star reviews,

so it's going very well. So I'm real happy. We're actually a top seller last week, I believe, in our category. So we're doing happy. We're actually the top seller last week, I believe in our category. So we're we're doing good We feel good about it. It's I think it's a good read and I think people like it Congratulations. So give us a 30,000 overview. What's inside the book? Well the book what it is is a 46 year journey with me through my career and what it does is it kind of encapsulates some of the anecdotal stories

and what I try not to do is make more stories. I try to use anecdotal stories to make points. It's not like I'm calling out people and trying to say this person or that person. I just try to give the stories in general so people can see kind of the things that I went through in my leadership journey and it might impact them. So I think it's good. I mean, it talks about everything from breaking the comfort zone and the importance of communication to the importance of getting out there with your information, with what your vision is and how you plan to reach it, communicating with the public, communicating internally, making sure you got the right staff behind you, loyalty, capability.

Those are the kinds of things that we're looking at in the book and things that might impact somebody else's journey that they could learn from some of the things I've been through. It's been interesting because I've been in both coming up in a paramilitary organization, whether it was the police department or the Drug Enforcement Administration but then also as an elected sheriff and and how wide open it is and how How many attacks you get when you're in a leadership position when you're elected office and I tell you it's a lot like Mixed martial arts except for at least a mixed martial arts. You've got a couple of roles You can't I gouge and do groin strikes, but in politics, it's like anything goes. Some of the things you can do to combat some of those attacks and kind of get past them.

You bring up a good point because it's one thing to lead a police off division, a police department, but then if you're high enough up or I guess however city or locale is set up, you've got to deal with politics of making sure the mayor is happy, I suppose the city council is happy, and issues of crisis can happen or things. So you're not just being a leader in just one sense of being a thing. It's almost like probably running a large know, you've got to make sure the vendors are happy, the boards happy, and stockholders, you're happy, and you've got all these people you have to just make happy of just your employees. Well, that's right. And one of the things about, certainly, elected leadership

is you actually answer to all the people that you serve. And we've got the largest sheriff's office in all of Virginia, full service sheriff's office, so it's a very complex organization. We got the jails, we got the courts, civil process, but we also have patrol, motors, investigators, crime scene people, so we have everything across the board. So we're basically a police department, I'm a police chief and a sheriff all simultaneously, but the difference is being elected is that you're answering directly to the people a police department, I'm a police chief and a sheriff all simultaneously, but the difference is being elected is that you're answering directly to the people that you serve. So you don't have, you know, I've got to work certainly with our board of supervisors and

that's not easy most of the time and certainly other members of the county administration. But when it comes to the way that we operate and the decisions that we can make It's really kind of what we want to do and I've got a very talented Executive staff and I've got very well highly committed people that that work for us that are that are very very professional and so we We're doing very well as far as our outreach and we don't have to worry about I don't have to worry about like if I want to do a press conference or do a Press release or or an article for a periodical or write a book or whatever I really have to get anybody's permission

I can I can do that and what's good about that is it gives us the ability it gives me the ability To take a stand on certain issues that you really couldn't do as a police chief because you're gonna have people You know kind of telling you know, you can, no, you can't say this, you can't say that, or even with press officers, you know, it's, it's true. And I mean, what we can do is, uh, is, is, uh, it's like wide open and, uh, but, but I think you have to use that, that, uh, I would say authority or, or that capability judiciously, so you don't overstep your bounds, because if you do, I mean, your answer to the public, they're're gonna they're gonna make you pay for it

No, yeah. Yeah, and you know, it's there's look it's kind of like living in a big glass box I imagine a good glass cage if you will ice the ice I reckon being a CEO being in a gilded cage like everyone's like, oh, it's so great You see oh you get all this money and you're just like yeah, but everyone shoots arrows at me and I'm just kind of up here with a bullseye and everyone's everyone's like yeah fuck that dude like this is a great position to be in so I used to call it the gilded cage but so when when did you begin to write the book what inspired you to write it etc etc what happened was when I ran for office back in 2011, so I announced my campaign in November

2010, had no idea what I was doing. Yeah, I was working at Booz Allen and fortunately I ran into some very smart people there, people that actually had run campaigns and I was getting some pretty good advice. You know, you get a lot of advice when people know you're running for office and I would say probably 95% of it is really not very good and everybody has an opinion. But I was actually getting some pretty good advice here and I thought I need something that I need to have a vision. I need to have something that we're striving for because I know my predecessor was, you know, he didn't do a bad job. He just didn't do a good job.

I mean, he wasn't out there really kicking it up and the county was growing and you had a lot of people that were coming in from DC, living in Ashburn, working in the federal government, working on the corridor, the 267 corridor, which is all these high tech, you know, businesses, Raytheon, Booz Allen, McDonald Doug, all these different places. So I think that it was time for the agency really to step up. And I thought like, wait a minute, let's think about how to do this. And that's where I thought, first of all, I needed to get something that would kind of catch people's attention out there.

And I thought service technology and professionalism. And I talked to one of my former chiefs there in Howard County and I said, hey, STP, it's like a gas additive that when I was a kid in high school, you put in your car to make it go faster, whatever the case was. And he says, Mike, the only people that are gonna know what STP are, are you and me, okay?

He goes, none of these younger kids are going to know that. And then I thought about it, so I'm missing, I'm missing an obvious one, efficiency. And what that did was service technology, efficiency and professionalism. I said, that's it. That's a goal. That's a vision. That's something that it's a, it provides a paradigm where you can always try to achieve. You'll never fully achieve any one of those goals,

but you're always striving to improve in every one of those areas. And that's kind of where we went. And I was like, okay. And I remember because I didn't have any money when I ran the campaign. I had to go out there and meet everybody. I put up, and I still do put up on my big yard sign,

on my big four by eight signs, all these other kinds of stuff. And so I would go out there and go to the bus stop at like 5 in the morning and I'm handing out palm cards to the people getting on the bus. And I knew it was starting to catch when people would come up to me and go, hey, you're that step guy, you're that step guy. And I was like, okay, it's starting to resonate here, you know? And when I got elected and I defeated a four-term incumbent and I did

pretty well, I guess, and pretty handily defeated him. And I had a primary and people in my party put people up against me because I was new on the block, new kid on the block, and I lived in the county for just over a year when I announced. And so, like, who was this kid coming in? I finished my DEA career in California, so I came back and they're like, who is this guy coming in from California? He's only career in California, so I came back and they're like, who is this guy coming in from California? He's only lived here a year. The nerve of him running for office and all this other stuff. So it was really hard for me. They put people up against me and then it was hard for me to raise money because people didn't know me and hadn't

been here very long, so I had to do a whole lot of stuff myself. But the benefit of that was it really connects you with the community. You have to be out there. You have to be meeting people, talking to people, finding out what the issues are. And so it's not a secondhand thing and it's not just a campaign strategy.

It's actually being out there and getting a real feel for the community. And one of the things, and I don't address this in the book, but one of the things that I noticed, first time I walked the parade when I was running for office, I thought, boy, this is going to be the corniest thing ever. I just don't feel comfortable with this. But I could tell as I was walking the parade and shaking hands along the way that really

it started, this connection started to happen and it was really pretty amazing. And I think that's the difference is being connected with your community where they get to know you, they get to trust you, they know when you put something out that you're not just bloviating, it's not just hyperbole, you're putting stuff out that's real, that's factual, and they get to trust and depend on you. And that's kind of what the book is about. It's about being honest, being fair, being compassionate, knowing how to change a culture, knowing how to make sure that you've got the, when you're talking about your leadership staff, the right

amount of loyalty and competence, you can't do one without the other. Sometimes people will only want loyalists at the expense of competence. And when I first found out, I actually go into a scenario in the book where I did that and it was very difficult for me. And so you have to get a good combination of both. So it's just a whole lot of lessons and it's broken down into chapters and anecdotal stories. So it's easy to follow and people that way can kind of pick it up and learn from it. And then at the end of each chapter, I have bullet points.

So people come to remember the most important points of each of the chapters. Well, learn from it. And then at the end of each chapter, I have bullet points so people come to remember the most important points of each of the chapters. Well, I love it. You know, it's the same way, you know, being a CEO, especially a very large company, you have to shake a lot of hands, you have to know your community, you have to establish good culture like you talk about.

And you know, I've watched CEOs like the head of HP and stuff, they spend their day meeting and touching hearts and minds, if you will, is what I call it, where they're shaking hands with people, they're connecting with them, asking them how things are going. They'll walk the front line of the company, they'll walk the board of directors,

they'll walk through the middle management, they'll try and make sure that they spread themselves around, they're shaking lots of hands, touching people. You know, I used to do that, touching people, I used to do that in the HR gets after me of that term, but touching hearts and minds basically is what it really is. You know, you're connecting with people, you're letting them know that you care about them personally and that you have an interest in them and you're empathetic towards them and people want to feel like somebody

cares and wants to make a difference. Somebody's just not in there making a buck or trying to, I don't know, just run Johnny Law into the ground. You'll do what I say or a baton gets you in the head. Having that, that's kind of the same sort of aspect that major CEOs utilize. What made you want to get in law enforcement? How did you grow up? What were some of your influences that got you in law enforcement?

And etc., etc. as you came up. So, my dad was a retired Washington, D.C. police detective. And so, when I was very young, I would hear his stories. And I thought, man, that's a pretty interesting job. And you know, when I went through high school, went through, started community college, I thought maybe I'll do that. And for a while there, I got involved in, you know, I became a karate instructor. I got my black belt and I worked for, actually, Take One Doe for the Junior Institute in Washington,

D.C. He was a big name in the Washington, D.C. area. He had eight schools around the Beltway. So, ultimately, I had my own school and did that for a while, but realized for me it wasn't a good long-term plan. I was engaged, and my wife and I wanted to get married, and I didn't think that was really the right job for me to continue to go forward. So, I pursued being in law enforcement a little bit more heavily at that point, which I did. And I applied to a couple of different places. And Howard County was what picked me up. And I'll tell you what, it was a great place to start. I mean, I had a few years

of patrol. I did a few years as a SWAT guy. So I got to learn all that and then became a detective. So it was actually a good training route for me. And while I was there, I had an opportunity to go back to school, get my undergraduate degree. And then I applied to DEA and I thought, wow, okay, let's do this and see what the world looks like here. Actually, quite frankly, when I applied, I never realized how many offices that they had overseas.

It's like back then, I think it was, well, I think now it's like 90 offices in 60 countries or something like that. It's really a big foreign presence there. But I figured, hey, let's do something. And in fact, when I got hired, I was at the class, it was right when cocaine wars were still going on down in Miami. So about half of our class went down to Miami. So that was my first indoctrination to the federal law enforcement. I think I was out there for all of about three weeks. And the first case that we had that was noteworthy was a 350 kilos and a guy tried, you know, pulling a Mac 10 out and, you know, we're going to get a shootout. I was like, wow, this is for real. this is real stuff down here you know. You tried that to say hello to my little friend move. It was a heck of a place to start.

That I mean yeah Miami and the drug trade and stuff in that area yeah that's one way to that's one way to get your chops down so you know did you run into Tony Mantegna? No I'm just kidding it's a fictional movie people. It's a I've seen Scarface too many times. Yeah, that's a great movie. So as we go to the next stage there, what's one of your proudest moments in law enforcement? You know, I would say, you know, I've had a lot of proud moments in law enforcement. I've had the opportunity to work some very difficult cases where there's big cocaine

trafficking cases when I was in Pakistan, certainly some heroin undercover stuff that we did back in the US, made some, actually locked up some of a guy named Salvador Gambino from the family up there, as well as a couple of his buddies. They came down to Miami to pick up some heroin, like kilogram amounts of heroin. So we've had some really good cases. And I've been fortunate to have received recognitions along the way. But I would say, when I look at my life and I look at the success that I've had, and I've been fortunate that I've had such a good support network my wife and my kids you know

And I've got I've got six kids and and very very proud of them I've got two that a book as our Naval Academy graduates Oh, we're 20 years apart from each other my oldest is the he is now the the naval attache for NATO out there He's a captain in in buses And my youngest daughter is in flight school with her husband down there in Petsacola. I had a son who graduated the Air Force Academy, went and graduated Coast Guard Academy. Had a daughter that went to University of Florida,

Navy ROTC. And I got a son right now who's in law school. And when I think about the fact that we moved so many places and the disruptions that my family went through along the way, and yet the support that I constantly got from my wife and the kids, it's been an amazing journey. Quite frankly, I don't know why she stayed with me because we've been through so many changes in life and never knowing when I was with DEA every three years, we were going

to go next. But it was always exciting. And so I learned a lot from there. And it's kind of funny when I first got the job as sheriff, I remember going to one of these seminars with the leadership folks in the county. And I remember like everybody was getting ready to retire. I was just starting because it's like my second career. Everybody's just getting ready to retire. And they're starting, because it's like my second career. Everybody's just getting ready to retire.

And they're talking about like, what do you want to do in retirement? And they're, you know, you go to the white board and you drop boats and planes. I want to travel. I want to do this and do that. And I said, actually, I'm kind of tired of traveling. I kind of wanted to settle in and be the sheriff here.

And it's worked out very well. We've had a great team. We've been through some serious challenges along the way. But right now we're highly recognized. We've got the lowest crime rate in Washington, D.C., metropolitan area, and Northern Virginia, and Maryland. We're very, very successful. In fact, I found a stat this morning where we have so many people that want to come work for us, and I think that's reflective of a good leadership team. We have a phenomenal leadership team and the fact is that right now the average rate of

people that are leaving the job here, attrition rate through law enforcement nationally is about over 9%. Ours is 1.66%. So, I mean, we're at less than 1.7% attrition, which tells you that the 900 people that make up the Loudoun County Sheriff's Office, our attrition is so low that people like what they do. We got a great team. We're proud of the work that we do.

And the one thing is I know I've got their back, and that's the difference between what I can do and what maybe some chiefs can't do because of the political ramifications of providing too much cover to their people. But I'm capable of doing that, you know, because I answer directly to the citizens we serve, and not to a mayor, not to a county executive. Work with them, of course, but I don't answer to them. And it makes all the difference, I think, when it comes to leading an organization like this.

Great tips on leadership. Yeah, you might want to write a book. I know it's, I don't know if it's true or not. I've never really seen the real stats. I don't want to spread any rumors, but I've heard it's, you know, it's hard for police officers to keep marriages going, you know, and there's a lot of stress there, of course, you know, worrying if they're going to come home every day. And so maybe you need to write a book on how to keep marriage together with all this moving around and stuff. I mean, that might be some insight.

You know how my wife do that. So I got to say, I mean, honestly, I feel like I was always working. So I mean, honestly, the credit when it comes to keeping the family together and going through all these things, it really all goes to her because I spent really all my time, you know, a lot of time working and probably too much time working, but it's still working out. So we're pretty proud of what we've become. Thanks for good retirement though, right? You work hard, you do the thing and you can retire and enjoy life. Write books about what your adventures were. Do you want to tease out any of the keys to successful leadership? You addressed a lot in your book, Vision, Leading by Example, Communication, Proactive.

Are there maybe some favorites you like? I would say Breaking the Comfort Zone. One of the things when I first took over, so I came in from the outside and quite frankly, we have a headquarters and four satellite offices in Loudoun County. It's not a small operation. I really wasn't allowed into any of those buildings until I actually took office. There's a little bit of contentiousness between the former administration and me coming in. So I came in completely cold.

So what I did was I brought a couple of people in from the outside. I brought a former chief of operations from DEAN, a senior executive, and another one from the FBI so that we'd have a mix of federal counterparts that could keep those liaisons going. And then I promoted some people internally. But one of the things I would say is that I hold, to this day, and since the start of my administration, I hold a standard 830 executive staff meeting or command staff meeting. We have about 14 people that participate in this meeting. And so we go around the room. But when I started that and I would go around the room and ask

people questions, it was almost like it was challenging the status quo. And I wasn't doing that to challenge the status quo, because I really didn't know how and why we did stuff. I mean, I'd go around the room and they'd say, hey, we're doing this or doing that. I said, well, you know, can you explain to me why, you know, why do we need, why, why is the magic number, for example, to have on patrol on any given day, 30 people out in the field? And I would say, so what happens if we go below that? Well, we, we immediately got to start paying people over time. And I said, okay. I said, why is 30 the magic number? Well, I don't know. Or like, we've always done it that way.

I mean, okay, that's great that we've always done it that way, but I just kind of need to know why, you know? And so they'd be like, some people would be like, oh my God, I can't believe this, sure, it's asking that. He's got a lot in there, he doesn't know what we do. And I would ask a lot of questions. And I think they were taken affront to that, but it wasn't because I was challenging, it was because I really needed to know why we did the things

that we did and then we go for ways to improve. And that's when I talk about breaking the comfort zone, which is critical. If you want to change the culture of an organization, you got to break the comfort zone. And people are really reluctant to change. One thing I say in the book there about cops is they all want change, but they all hate change. Everybody wants change until it impacts them. Then it's like, hey, wait a minute, I didn't know it was going to impact me. But it's hard to do that. And one of the things I did was I made promotions equal across the board. In other words, if you went to a specialty, it used to be you'd get an increase in pay.

Then you really couldn't move out of the specialty without it being a personnel action. And so now I've got to justify that. So what I did was I leveled the playing field so that we could move people around because I felt like, hey, women, it's good for people to get different experiences within the agency. I think it gives you a richer understanding of the organization and it makes you more valuable to the citizens that you serve. And so if you're a detective you can bring that investigative skill to the field. If you're in the field you bring the

immediacy of the work that you do and the importance of getting things done fast to investigations. Whatever the case is there's a whole lot of overlap and we can't lose sight of the fact of what we do is provide safety to people and everybody is important and everybody is as important as each other There's no you're more important because you got this or that it's everybody is part of the they're all cogs in the wheel and they're all Extremely important for because of what they do individually and in the roles they play Yeah, it takes a village to support a community I suppose and race people, you know, and you've got racial tensions that are always a thing.

You've got rights groups or specialty groups that they want to do their hearing. Sometimes you've got to deal with somebody who wants to march through town that no one likes with their things. There's a lot of balance there. You're trying to provide security and safety and help the community have a good culture and stuff. So it can be a real balancing act, I'm sure, trying to make your... And you can't make everyone happy.

That's one of the fallacies. Well, I found that out. The thing is, you run it with a party and we're too big of a county for me to run as an independent. You need to have some apparatus behind you to help you out through an election cycle. But the job itself is apolitical. I mean, so, I mean, it's no secret I'm a conservative,

but we treat everybody equally and fairly. And considering that, you know, for four years straight, you know, I was the favorite public servant in both local newspapers, even though the prevailing party is not the one I'm in. You know, we've got a seven to nine ratio, seven out of nine in the opposite party on our board.

And yet, me being a conservative, I continue to get recognized as one of the most popular public servants here. And it's, it's not by accident, it's because we really care about what we do. And we care about the citizens. One of the things that was kind of funny when I was first on the job and I had to fill out my TSSCI clearance, top secret sensitive compartmentalized clearance. I remember the FBI guy that was doing a background on it, he comes in and he's filling out the form and he says, I don't know, well, you know, because you're with the FBI.

So, you know, the SF86 is, you know, whatever, 40 pages long. So I fill out everything except for one block. It's like who you report to. And I said, I report to the citizens. He goes, yeah, but you know, in the hierarchy of things, you got to report to somebody. I said, no, actually I'm elected. I report to the citizens. He goes, no, but I got to put something in this box. And I said, I said, okay, look, I'm going to get all 400,000 names for you,

but it's going to take me a couple of days. Okay. So, so I think he finally got, he just had to turn it in without it, but, but it was a different, it conceptually it's different. And it's even taken me a lot of time to understand over the years how different it is when you, when you have that direct reporting to the citizens and how you can get things done directly with the people that you serve. And there was a move to try to make us a police department and the board was all out to do that and we fought back with the public. The public came in behind us 100% and we crushed it because we went straight to the people that we serve.

And what I like is that there is no buffer. It's us and it's them. And man, I see every complaint, I see every compliment that comes in online every single morning. And we still average four to one compliments to complaints. And a lot of times, sometimes I'll pick up the phone and I'll call and say, hey, look, I saw that you called in about this or that, or you wrote in about this or that. This is why we do this. Is this really the sheriff? I'll call and say, hey, look, I saw that you called in about this or that, or you wrote in about this or that.

This is why we do this. Is this really the sheriff? I'm like, yeah, it's the sheriff. We're just around, man. They're like, whoa. But I think a lot of it, a lot of success in this field has to do with the direct interaction that you have with people. And just being there and trying to be in as many things as you can so people get familiar

with you and they get to see you and they feel comfortable with you and they know they get to learn to trust you. They know when you make decisions they're not rash or well thought out. And I do that because I have a great staff to bounce things off of and to kind of make sure that we get the right information to get it done right. And that's really important.

And so lots of great lessons in leadership. I mean, the one thing I love about leadership is it's, you know, the lessons you can learn, the skills that you learn in leadership, you can apply to everything. A parent is a leader. Someone in a crisis situation usually steps forth as a leader. You know, you see that in crisis centers or situations or attacks or terrorist attacks and stuff like that, you know. Some guy on the bus suddenly becomes a leader and helps like that, you know, some guy on the bus suddenly becomes a leader

and helps other people, you know, survive or helps lead the situation, go over there, run over there, et cetera, et cetera. And so, you know, leadership is endemic. You know, I meet a lot of people who say, you know, well, I can't be a leader because I'm in middle management. I'm like, no, you can. In fact, showing you're a leader early on

at the front lines or in middle management is usually one of the things that gets you promoted because people go, that guy has leadership skills. So it's great that all these are indicative across all the different cultures of leadership that can be done or careers, I suppose. Any final thoughts as we go out that maybe we missed you wanna talk about?

No, I would just encourage people because I think there's a lot of good anecdotal stories in here. It'll share some of the challenges that I had. It'll show some of the ways to overcome them, some of the ways to lead. One of the chapters I have is lead by example, and I certainly learned that when I worked

in the karate world. You gotta lead by example. People are watching what you do, and if you're poor, you's, you know, you got to lead by example. People are watching what you do and if you're poor, you know, you can, you know, the old say, you know, do as I say, not as I do, it doesn't work. Okay, you got to, you got to be able to, when you tell people that you want to do something or whatever, you're going to do something, they need to know that you're going to follow through on it, you know. And I think one of the things that surprised the workers from the time that I took the job,

even until this day, is they're just not used to seeing a sheriff that'll come in early in the morning and stay past 6 o'clock, 6.30 at night. And that includes, that doesn't include really the weekends and the night engagements that I have and the presentations, speeches I have to give and all that. So it's a matter of being highly engaged. And the other thing I would say for leadership is not to be afraid to take a stand. I mean, I think everybody is so afraid of like,

well, if I say this, I'm getting in trouble, I'm gonna get criticized on this or that. It's like, no, let people know where you stand. So long as you can justify and articulate why you're taking that stand, people appreciate that. And I think that's the one thing about what I see a lot in today's leaders is they're afraid to really go out there. And I mean, not for show, not to go to an event and just be boisterous to get attention. But I'm talking about actually being thoughtful, writing an article, writing an op-ed, doing

an article for a magazine, doing just a newspaper article, whatever. I've written for The Hill, I've written for the Richmond Times Dispatch, I've written several op-eds here and there, a couple different magazines Leda National Sheriff's magazine. So there's a whole lot of things that I think are good to get get things out there so people can actually You know learn and respect what it is that you do and so long as they may not agree with you But so long as you can articulate why you do what you do I mean it should go a long way and then you're right people not everybody's gonna like you Excuse me. I've certainly found that out. Can't please everybody but so long as

you're getting to the majority of the people, they understand what you're doing and they're understanding that in law enforcement our job is to keep you safe. That's what we do and we're gonna do everything we can to do that. Well, it's a wonderful message and a wonderful lesson you're sharing with people so they can do better. Thank you for coming on the show and give us your dot coms one last time so we can find you on the end. Okay, it's stepupandleadbook.com. Excuse me, you can certainly go on Amazon and pull up the book and do that. We've got in my email, michael.chapman2011 at gmail.com if you want

to send me a message directly. happy to get back to you. And I do appreciate the opportunity to be on your show, Chris. Thank you. You've got the good work. I know you get a highly rated show here, so I appreciate you having me on. Appreciate having you too. I love talking about leadership. Thanks to my audience for tuning in.

Ordered the book wherever fine books are sold. Learned about leadership from all different aspects of life. We've had people on here talking about leadership. I think you can go on the Chris Voss Show and search leadership. And you can find like everybody from, you mentioned one of your kids was in the, excuse me, one of your children was in the,

trying to find it here as I'm talking, was in the, oh, the Navy, Navy captain. We had on the show, oh, here it is, right, it's gone behind the camera. We had Maverick Navy captain, Brett Crozier on the show. I don't know if you remember him, but he was a captain of, I believe, the theater Roosevelt. And it was during COVID. And he had that crisis where COVID was raging through his ship and he couldn't get up the chain of command well. But seeing him leave his ship with a standing ovation of his officers chanting was really amazing. And we had a great show with him talking about leadership and stoicism. And I told him, I go, I never left a room being a CEO or anybody clapped or gave

me a standing ovation. So you do leadership better than I do. So good for you, man. But you know, this we've had so much great leadership discussions on the book from all different aspects, military trains, leadership just really is sounding well. I'm always I'm always just amazed at how great our military is because of it. There's all sorts of stuff. Anyway, check that out.

My son, before that he was on the USS Arleigh Burke. So he's got a lot of great background there. And so I'm proud. And you asked me before, probably the biggest award I've gotten was National Sheriff of the Year. I got that a couple years ago Oh, that was that was a big one when you figure there's over 3,000 Sheriffs nationwide to get to be the one person selected to get that meant a lot. So but yeah, we're doing good and I think I think

You know, I think the book reflects some of the ups and downs that it's taken to get there So I appreciate anybody would go out and purchase that. I'd be grateful. Well thank you very much for coming to the show. Thanks for tuning in. Go to Goodreads.com, Fortress Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress Chris Foss. Chris Foss won the TikTok and he had Facebook.com, Fortress Chris Foss. Be good to each other. Stay safe or else I'll see you next time. And that should have a say.