The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Surf When You Can: Lessons in Life, Loyalty, and Leadership from a Maverick Navy Captain by Brett Crozier, Michael Vlessides

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

Surf When You Can: Lessons in Life, Loyalty, and Leadership from a Maverick Navy Captain by Brett Crozier, Michael Vlessides https://amzn.to/3Jc6GHO Inspiring lessons learned from a lifetime of honor, service, and leadership from Captain Brett Crozier, the former commanding officer of the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt and renowned Navy officer. Amid one of the darkest times in American history, it was a moment that captured the attention of the nation. Brett Crozier, captain of the most powerful and prestigious aircraft carrier in the United States Navy, walked off his ship for the last time while thousands of his sailors saluted and chanted his name in admiration. This remarkable moment occurred after Crozier made the decision to try to protect his sailors by pleading with his superiors for help when COVID-19 swept through the vessel. Two days later, he was relieved of command. Now, Crozier reflects on his life, career, and commitment to doing the right thing in a book that celebrates the power of kindness, the importance of teamwork, and the value of standing up for what you believe in. Through a series of captivating stories set all around the world, Crozier takes us along on the grand adventures of his extraordinary career and introduces the incredible people he met along the way. From his days as fighter pilot facing near-death experiences to commandeering suspected pirate vessels in the Persian Gulf, and of course, seizing any opportunity to enjoy one of his favorite hobbies—surfing—Crozier distills the lessons he has learned and the principles that have guided him, showing how you can apply them to your personal and professional life. About the Author Brett Crozier grew up in Santa Rosa, California, graduated from the United States Naval Academy, and embarked on a thirty-year career in the Navy, flying dozens of combat missions over Iraq and leading at the highest levels of operational command. He served as the Commanding Officer of a combat F/A-18 strike fighter squadron, the world’s largest and most advanced communications ship USS Blue Ridge, and ultimately the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt before retiring from the Navy in 2022.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the big show, my family and some friends. For 14 years and 1,400 episodes, we've been doing this show.

There's two to three shows a day, so please refer to the show to your family, friends, and relatives. YouTube.com, Fortress Chris Voss. Goodreads.com, Fortress Chris Voss. And LinkedIn.com, Fortress Chris Voss. And check us out over there, TikTok. We're trying to be cool over there, and it's not working because we're old. Anyway, guys, we have an amazing U..s navy captain on the show with us today and he's going to be telling you uh his amazing story uh what he's written in his book about leadership life loyalty from a maverick

navy captain and uh a little bit of backstory on this you likely heard of this gentleman uh he was in the news for a little bit. He's probably been in the news probably all his life. But he was in the news kind of bigly, as they say. I don't know. Who says bigly? But there was like this little thing that happened around 2020. And it was like a, what do they call that thing?

Oh, a pandemic. You may have seen it come down the pike there as it were and uh and uh there were some people getting this uh flu called the uh what was it oh it's called the covid yeah you may have heard of that it's kind of funny i go to the store now no one walks around mass anyway we have uh captain brett crozier on the show with us today he is the author of the newest book that's coming out, Surf When You Can, which always reminds me of Apocalypse Now, that scene with Robert Duvall. And it comes out June 13th, 2023. Surf When You Can, Lessons in Life, Loyalty, and Leadership from a Maverick Navy Captain. Brett Crozier joins us on the show today. And he grew up in California. Of course, it's a beautiful place to grow up with his son there.

He graduated from the United States Navy. I try to say Navy for Naval. So there you go. I need to watch my Naval more often. The United States Naval Academy. And he embarked on a 30-year career in the Navy, flying dozens of combat missions over Iraq and leading at the highest levels of operational command.

He served as the commanding officer of a combat F-18 strike fighter squadron, the world's largest and most advanced communications ship, and ultimately the USS Theodore Roosevelt before retiring from the Navy in 2022. This is his first book, and welcome to the show, Brett. How are you? I'm doing great, Chris. Thanks for the exciting intro and quick bio there. Well, you've had an exciting life, you know, so you've got that going on.

Yeah, it's been fun. And I mean that. I really enjoyed all my time in the Navy and all the exciting things I got to do. I don't think I really had to grow up until I retired, as my wife said. And even now, I'm trying to resist that urge to grow up and not do exciting things anymore. Why is it like that? You grow up and you get a lot of that. But no, I mean, being a commanding officer of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, they don't let anybody drive those things.

Like I've been applying, but they're just like, no. Yeah, I think you can go to Indeed and apply. I think there's some websites. Oh, can you? Can you? Yeah. Do they have like volunteer commander for a day where I can just kind of go on there and be like, hey, let's put this thing up, the thing.

So give us a.com, sir, of where you want people to find out more about you and the internet. Sure. If you go to surfwhenyoucan.com, you'll see links to the book and kind of the background, some pictures and videos.

And one thing I also encourage people if they go to surfwhenyoucan.com is I list a couple of nonprofits that I'm associated with. One that I work at full-time right now, taking care of homeless veterans, but others that are important. And I think it's always good

to recognize folks out there that are serving in a different way than the military and I think helps out both your local and national community. But surfwhenyoucan.com. There you go. It just brings back that Robert Duvall thing.

I should have brought a soundboard of that. I don't know if I can legally do it without paying some money, but I should have brought a soundboard of, Charlie, don't surf. I can't do Robert Duvall, clearly. So what motivated you to write this book? you know and doing something in my case the navy i mean i graduated high school when i was 18 went to the naval academy served 30 years that's kind of what i knew and and there's there's moments then to reflect on what you did but i get first and foremost i think i wrote the book to to really thank all the men and women i served with over the years because there's a lot of great relationships you serve with incredible people from all over the country, all over the world in some cases. I've made some great relationships. I just felt like if I wanted to thank one person for my time or one thing, it would be all the people I served with because they made an incredible experience and I certainly learned more from them than they probably learned from me. I also thought I learned a lot of cool stuff along the way, you know, just because I had a varied background from flying helicopters to fighters to driving ships, you know, to the whole pandemic thing.

And it allowed me to kind of think through some thoughts on what I think is important about leadership. And I wanted to share those to a broad audience outside the military as well. And, you know, I certainly tell my kids and family sea stories, but they pretty much get tired after about five minutes of those kinds of stories. So I figured I needed to expand my audience. So I wanted to write, you know, second reason to write and share those stories. And then I think third, you know, for those that know about the COVID situation, the TR, I wanted to kind of dispel this, this myth that I was bitter or angry. You know, I was, I enjoyed my time in the military every single day. There's, there were hard days, days don't get me wrong but i learned from those hard days as well and i

couldn't have been you know more honored to serve for the full 30 years and even after the tr and i you know after i left the ship after the the covid pandemic struck our ship um i served for another two years i continued to fly fighters and i felt like the navy really took good care of me um particularly aviation and and i say that with knowing that it's for me it's a family business my oldest son served as an air crewman my middle son's uh in pensacola in flight school and you know my wife is you know the daughter of a navy captain so it's a family business for us and i stayed as long you know i stayed to the end of the 30 years and was glad I did. And I want people to know that, you know, despite everything that happened and people followed in the news or not, I was still happy to be in the Navy and I was excited. They took good care of us

and they really did up until the end. So there you go. Well, let's lead off on that. What, so what happened during this COVID time? Uh, give us a recap on, on what that, uh, what, what happened? There was something about some president guy who thought he was president for four years or something. Yeah, so we were, like the rest of the world, we were trying to, we being the Navy, was trying to figure out how to deal with COVID and how it was spreading and where it was spreading and the risks it presented to the various demographics. And we were at sea on deployment. We were operating in the South China Sea,

near the Philippines, near Guam, near Vietnam. And at some point on that deployment, we picked up COVID. We had a couple of sailors that tested positive for COVID. And if you can imagine the environment on an aircraft carrier, for those that have never been, it's like high school,

or it's like college dorms, but packed in even more. So some cases you have 200 sailors in a single room, you know, three high and six feet apart. So it's not a great environment to have a pandemic that spreads as it did, as we know it did. And so we were doing all we could to try to mitigate the risks to the sailors and watching the numbers grow exponentially. We had a complete medical team on board. We had an epidemi medical team on board. We had an epidemiology team on board. So we were able to really track it scientifically as well. And

the Navy was also trying to figure out what steps they could take at the higher levels. So at the end of the day, I was frustrated because we weren't probably getting the response we wanted. And I knew everybody wanted what was best for the sailors, but I also knew nobody wanted it as much as I did as the captain of the ship. You are ultimately accountable for what happens on the ship. And I wanted to take care of what I knew was my number one priority as a leader, which was the sailors that worked for me. So I wrote an email that basically addressed those concerns and tried to ask for help. And then we got some help.

It also got out to the public at large and nothing in it was unclassified but it just created a little bit of a political dynamic and you know when i sent the letter asking for help i knew that i was there was risk to my career i knew i was rocking the boat as we say but at that point it didn't matter the priority was pretty clear for me and then politically obviously that caused some consternation as you go up the chain of command up to the all the way up to the executive level and and eventually the decision was made to to relieve me of command so i left the ship and um shortly thereafter and there was some discussion about put me back on the ship but then eventually um they came back and said it's

you know didn't make sense to put you back on the ship. And so I served for another two years and then retired just last year. There you go. And the viral moment was watching you leave your command of the ship and your crew standing up and applauding you as you left. I mean, what an epic moment for a leader. Yeah, definitely unexpected. That was the end of the day of me packing and getting ready to depart the ship. And I think it was their way of thanking me for basically sticking my neck out on their behalf.

And I think it was also their way of saying, you know, Captain, we got this. You know, there's still a fight ahead. They were still going to have to fight through and figure out how to deal with this. But they, I think in some ways, were saying, Captain, we got it. You trained us well. We're going to continue the fight. And we thank you for your sacrifice. There you go.

It was a good moment. And, I mean, the book you've written details about loyalty, leadership, and life in your book. You know, I briefly learned a lot about the military's leadership sort of stuff. We've had a few people from West Point on leadership and another great military folks on. And our military has a way of teaching leadership, and you know, all the different things. I'm thinking, trying to think of the Army's be no do. Is it be no, is it be no do?

No. But the aspect of what our military teaches when it comes to the quality of leadership and the way it name, but he recently said that Russia, when you thought Russia had the second best military in the world, and now we found the second best military in the Ukraine. I thought that was a punch in the gut, and appropriately so. But we built a great leadership thing, and so there you are. You're on a ship. You've got you know this is this is a big deal all the ships you know even the start with the cruise ships but any of

these ships that are out there once this this this little plague was going on and for those listening this years uh from now there was no uh there was no vaccine back then in fact we didn't even really understand it much but for our enemies to know that hey there's a ship out there that could be you know uh that could have problems or multiple ships where we can't defend or protect or or be aggressive on what we need to do and hold the line uh that's a very dangerous position for the security of america and in our allies yeah i i think and i try to be clear too when i when i asked for assistance was that you know let's make no mistake i mean that if called upon we would man the ship and we would get to see and we would fight and defeat our enemies i had no doubt about that and um and the question is

you know what point you know this now comes down to operational risk management and how you make that decision what type of decision you make based on whether you're at peace or you're at war. And everyone in the military knows when you sign up and the day you, you know, step foot in boot camp or academy or commissioning source, the potential to go to war is there. That's, you know, you shouldn't think that that's not the case. And when you're in war, your risk calculus, your risk decisions are much different than they are when you're at peace.

I think that's important. We take a lot of steps. We do a lot of things all the time to mitigate risk from silly things like, you know, you have to wear a reflective belt if you're going to run anytime, you know, that's, you know, within an hour of sunrise or sunset or, and, or if you're going to step on a ladder, that's more than three feet high, you better have a helmet on. And so those are, those are risk decisions we make because we want to mitigate that. So when we were looking at COVID, I think, you know, we had to address it appropriately. And we, yeah, had to acknowledge that there was some public information was getting out there.

You know, when a carrier pulls into port, it's not a secret to anybody, right? There's not a James Bond underground location you pull in. They're a little big, those ships. And every sailor has a cell phone. So it's not like, you know, you can big, those ships. And every sailor has a cell phone. So it's not like you can't. And so one of the things we were doing was information that was getting out from every sailor that was on the deck, flight deck, or hangar bay, calling home, texting home, because we were pier side and cell coverage. And so in that regards, we were trying to manage the information to make sure it was understood that the risk how we wanted to handle it um and and so i don't you know i don't think there was undue risk to our security as we talk about because again it would you know we would have clearly just

manned up and gone to sea and fought and and defeated to be honest any enemy that would try to take advantage of those moments there you go um so you know this this whole thing gets political and and those people you know we have people still watching our videos from 14 years ago the thing that people need to remember about this is that uh there was a bit of squashing of information and trying to spin stuff you know at one point some idiot was telling somebody they should use bleach uh to squash the thing uh and there was some horse tranquilizer stuff i think too there was a lot of misinformation going on and and it seemed like there was a lot of containment i think that's been well documented a lot of the washington post people we've had on um and and denial i think is the word i was looking for too and so a lot of this was going on so you coming out and writing this letter as a

leader saying i care about my people. I have responsibility to them. We need some more help here. This kind of shook some of those people that were trying to create some denial or kind of tamp down on how bad the situation really was. Is that a good assessment? Yeah. And there's obviously complex decisions being made and there's pressures at the executive level that I can only imagine. But when you try to limit information and try to control information, what you do is you put barriers in place. And whether you're running a country or running a nonprofit or a corporate kind of level, if you're squashing information or you're putting up barriers that means you're not as a leader going to get the truth, you're not going to make the right decisions. And you're going to make these barriers such that, you know, you want people to bring you information, right? So good companies, in my opinion, not only encourage, but they expect

you to bring truth and information to decision-making processes. Bad organizations tend to try to squash it. They try to limit it. And in the end, the question is, how can you make a good decision if you don't have all the information? And I think that's kind of where we found ourselves is that there was a lot of effort to control information, squash information, spin it as it were. And that was going to potentially lead to some catastrophic decisions. And that was our biggest worry on the ship was that that kind of hesitancy to look at the truth might mean that we're not going to get the help we needed. And that case that would put undue risk to the crew that I was responsible for. And as a leader, you're responsible for the lives of your people.

You care about your people. This thing was killing people. There's still people going through long COVID. What is it like to have the President of the United States suddenly take a bend on you and decide he doesn't like you asking for help to save the people in your command? Well, I mean, I guess everybody's entitled to their opinion. I love your perspective. I guess what I really liked was he made some, there were some, at the executive level, made some comments about me writing

as if I was Hemingway. And I just hope that my high school English teacher heard that, that the president of the United States compared my writing, because I think I deserve a higher grade on that paper I turned in as a senior. There you go. There you go.

Well, you have to remember, I think someone says he reads at a fourth grade level, he can read it all. Uh, but, uh, enough of that. So I'm going to people write me and hate me. Uh, they're like, why are you throwing shade at, uh, anyway, enough jokes aside about that. that you came away from that without being resentful, without having issues with it, I would be a little pissed off. Like, how do you manage that? How do you square that? And how do you resolve that in your mind as to what took place in relieving you of your command and the people you care for?

Well, so I knew when I sent the email, and again, it wasn't in a vacuum, and I sent it after a lot of conversations and analysis with the medical team and the folks on board. But when I sent the email, and again, it wasn't in a vacuum, and I sent it after a lot of conversations and analysis with the medical team and the folks on board. But when I sent the email, I knew that that was one of the risks. So in the end, I don't think I was surprised by the outcome. It wasn't the outcome I wanted personally, but it got us the outcome we wanted, which was the assistance for the sailors that we were trying to get in proper quarters to take care of them so that we could reduce the spread. So in that regard, I guess it was of the things that could happen. It was one of the things I knew could probably happen.

So I, in that way, I was prepared for it. But I also kind of believe that, you know, you can, you can't control what happens to you, but you can control how you react, kind of that stoic wisdom. And I'm a big believer in that. And I think at the end of the day, there was nothing to be gained by me reacting. It wasn't going to change the situation. And I've been in enough life or death situations in combat and other places where you learn how to kind of keep your emotions in check and try to perform to your utmost level. This was just an extension of it.

It wasn't a life or death situation for me. It had been to the crew, but we had started to get the help we needed. So now we're just talking professionally. My career changed a little bit, and my current job changed as I left the ship. And it was a great job. Don't get me wrong. It was the best job I've had in my life and probably ever will have. I got to fly a helicopter one day, go launch off my own ship to fly a Super Hornet fighter the next day,

go down and help watch them start up the reactor the next day. There's so many things that I could go around kind of in my leadership style. And then I could be on the bridge helping drive the ship through the South China Sea with Chinese ships a mile away. So it was exciting. It was fun. You had a lot of influence. It's a $10 billion aircraft carrier with a lot of responsibility. I loved it.

And so if anything, i was disappointed only knowing that you know the best job i'd had the job i loved uh was no more but at the end of the day i mean it was going to end at some point and i knew that if it had to end for any reason uh shortly then it would be doing it for the right reason which is why in the end i think i felt okay with it and and i think still the navy probably reacted and and maybe gave you guys what you needed. Yeah, I definitely think it broke down some barriers. There was a lot of discussions about various options, but the one that we were recommending as the only viable option is certainly the path that we took.

And so we got the help we needed. So, yeah, there's a lesson about communication there and truth to power and the importance of speaking up, I think, when things are not going as you'd like and and accepting that you know they might shoot the messenger but oh well at least you least you're getting the right decision to the right people they're having to make some of these big decisions and that that decision at the time was well beyond my capability it was it involved political levels of government that i obviously was not part of so hi folks here with a little station break. Hope you're enjoying the show so far.

We'll resume here in a second. I'd like to invite you to come to my coaching, speaking, and training courses website. You can also see our new podcast over there at chrisvossleadershipinstitute.com. Over there, you can find all the different stuff that we do for speaking engagements, if you'd like to hire me, training courses that we offer, and coaching for leadership, management, entrepreneurism, podcasting, corporate stuff. With over 35 years of experience in business and running companies as a CEO, and be sure to check out chrisfossleadershipinstitute.com.

Now back to the show. You know, but I think this speaks again to leadership and the quality of people that our military teaches and brings up. You know, being able to take one for the team. I was just, what was I listening to earlier? I was listening to some different audio books, but being able to risk yourself over the people that you're leading and stuff, there's something about that, and there's a benevolence to it. There's probably some other better words I can think of, but it's something that people have to look at as a leader.

You have to be more concerned about other people than yourself. It's not an all-about-me sort of position, or at least it shouldn't be. And you mentioned stoicism. One of the things I read every morning is Seneca, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, in fact, sitting right off the screen so that I see it every day when I'm looking at the screen. And some of these stoic principles are just so important, especially probably for a military aspect of dealing with you know when you're in these theaters that are active you're in war you're in danger you know that you just you just don't go running off

emotionally like i would i just run off screaming pretty much most of the time uh so you you entitled the book surf when you can what does that What does that mean? What's the thing behind that? Well, I do love to surf, so in fairness to that, I try to surf as much as I can. And for various reasons. One, I think my love of surfing or anything activity-wise outdoors is my way to have a good life-work balance. And I think any leader needs to have some kind of balance in their life for many reasons. One, I think you're healthier when you do. And if you're healthier, you just work better and you can work. So I think we all know now, the healthier you are, the better you're going to be able to

work and lead and make decisions. Definitely. I was going to say, it's also because you also need a time to think. So kind of go back to the discussion about stoic wisdom. These are some great philosophers that also need time to think. So kind of go back to the discussion about stoic wisdom. These are some great philosophers that took the time to think and write down. And oftentimes as leaders nowadays, we're so overwhelmed with texts and tweets and phone calls and emails. And I think it's very easy to get focused on what we call the tactical level in the military. And a true leader should be taking a step back and looking strategically on the organization. Where do they

need to go? What big decisions need to be made from a revenue generation standpoint? How do you take care of your employees or your sailors? And that takes time to think. Those aren't things you can think of in between emails or between watching stuff on your phone. Surfing for me is not only a way to have

a good life work balance, but it's a way for me to think and step away from it all. Because if you're caught with a phone on the lineup out on the surfboard, you're probably going to be shunned. So you generally don't have anything out there to communicate other than yelling at the guy next to you and hanging out on the surf. So that's why I chose the title of the book and why it's important. And I tried throughout my career to find that balance.

And I still today continue to try to work on that. Yeah. It's a little hard to surf TikTok when you're like on the board going dodging the sharks. So, uh, what, what, what made you attracted to the water? What made you attracted to get in the Navy? What, tell us a little bit about your orange or your origin story. And I imagine, and I imagine this is kind of a memoir, right, for people? Yeah, I think it's, I try to tell a story of my career really through the people I met and the people I learned from. And I throw sea stories in from combat and peacetime

and sometimes staff work. And I think if there's one way to say it it's a story it's a memoir but it's really not like i don't talk about you know me growing up directly i talk about what i learned along the way through different stories so it's what i really want to do is introduce the reader to a bunch of people i met throughout my career and then through that kind of tell the lessons i learned and in some cases i'm relating a story that took place when i was playing baseball as a young kid and other times it's you know somewhere someone I met when I was more senior and and told me the importance of like teamwork and in a way that resonated with me um so but but my origin story as it were my dad was in the air force so um that clearly meant I was going to go a different direction just because I wanted to be

the rebel that I was but um but he you know he only did a few years, but it was enough to plant the seed because I got to be around airplanes at a very young age and fell in love with aviation. And I remember as a young kid buying a book on military jets. So fast forward, that was my goal as a young kid is to fly airplanes the faster, the louder, the better, which generally meant the military. So I was leaning towards the Air Force. And then a small movie came out in 1986 that uh some people remember but you know suddenly i learned by watching top gun when i was 16 and also learned to drive at the same time that lo and behold the navy actually does some pretty cool things in aviation so that that sent me towards the naval academy and on a path in aviation and i was the kid when i was you know

if you would send me to flight school when i was 16, I would have skipped college and gone right to flight school. That's all I wanted. And luckily, I had smarter parents than I and made sure I got the college degree that was required and was able to get to the Naval Academy. And loved it. So that's why I joined. But I told people I didn't stay for flying. As much as I love flying and and I flew helicopters and fighters, I stayed for the people.

I stayed for the people I met and the people I got to serve with. And it's an incredible group of selfless people from all over the country, in some cases the world, that serve in our military. And that was what I enjoyed the most was meeting them, learning from them. But it was cool to go jump in a jet occasionally and take off from a carrier or land on the back of a carrier. So those were exciting moments that kept me going as well. Yeah, you've got the multifaceted, you know, you've got the boats and you've got the planes and you've got all the gear

and you can do everything. In fact, I think we have Hazard Lees on the show with us, I think today or tomorrow. Okay, yeah. A U.S. Air Force combat pilot and instructor. His book, The Art of Clear Thinking. And we'll have yours between the thing here in the final show. But, yeah, I mean, what an extraordinary thing.

But the leadership principles that they teach in our military are just extraordinary. And I didn't really understand. I mean, I knew they were a big deal. But watching the military structure of the Russians and their whole weird system of hierarchy and then seeing it just fail miserably, it's really been interesting to see how that plays out and how somehow we've gotten it right. Yeah, and I think if you study in depth on the differences between the two, we really believe in delegation, right? I mean, Colin Powell said, you delegate till you're uncomfortable and then you delegate some more. And I think what he meant is if you train folks well and you empower them, then you let them go

off and make the decisions they need to in those environments. As an aviator at a young rank, I would sign for an airplane and I would be entrusted to take off and fly well beyond the range of the carrier and I'd have live ordnance on the jet. And I would be entrusted to take off and fly well beyond the range of the carrier and I'd have live ordnance on the jet. And I would be making life or death decisions at times. And that at a very young age. And I think what you find in many other services, like the Russians as an example, they don't train the same way. So they're much more controlled and much more hierarchical and you don't do anything unless you get permission. And that really slows down certainly a military, particularly in combat,

if you're waiting for approval to do anything. And if you're in the corporate world, I'd argue the same thing. And I see in the nonprofit world, if people are waiting for permission all the time, well, it just slows down. It's just mucking up the wheels. And that's not how you want an organization to run if you're trying to be nimble and make good, quick decisions so you can move forward. So I think there's a balance there.

And I think you're right, your earlier point, the military and the U.S. military trains people very well, both tactically and technically, you know, as required, but also by leadership standpoint. From the moment I entered the academy to the day I left, there's there's always discussions about leadership. And people tend to think the military is all about discipline and how early can you get up? How much do you need to work out? How long can you go without sleep? That's an element and that's an important element in any military organization. But the U.S. military also trains well to understand the importance of servant leadership. And that comes down to taking care of your people. And that's what I think I want to make sure people understand is, and that's kind of what I write about in the book is there's a softer side of

leadership that is as essential as being about discipline and hard work and, you know, and holding people accountable. You have to know how to communicate. You have to understand culture. You have to understand teamwork and the strength of that in any organization. So as a leader, if you're only focused on the hard right side of discipline and, you know discipline and go without sleep, you're probably not doing as well as you can. And the organization certainly is not. But I think as leaders, no matter what your line of work, those softer skills of knowing how to relate, how to communicate, how to build teamwork is really essential to your success. And I see that now in the nonprofit world. I think it's even in the nonprofit world that people join not to get rich, but for some higher kind of cause.

You still need to take care of them. You still need to find ways to encourage that teamwork and encourage that cooperation. And you're way more effective when you do it right. Yeah. Leadership is such a hard thing to teach because some people think from a management aspect. They're like, well, I'm just the boss. I got a title and whatever. But you have to win the hearts and minds of your people.

I mean, you can't just get the title and people are like, well, we'll respect that guy, I guess. You've got to win their hearts and minds. You've got to touch souls and motivate people. And it's not just about barking orders at people, right? Yeah, you have to inspire them. You want to inspire them. And if they're inspired, they will work better and they'll work harder and they'll be more effective.

And that's what leadership is about to me, is how do you inspire them to be greater than the sum of the parts and how do you get the most out of your organization. And that's not sitting behind a computer answering emails or looking at spreadsheets. It's actually in some cases getting out there talking to people understanding the culture and how you can make it better and how you can help them achieve their goals yeah it's it's amazing to me how people

will follow certain leaders and and won't follow others and and what appeals to them and what makes a difference uh in in uh connecting with people. And some people talk about what's called, they call it the emotional quotient or emotional intelligence that leaders should have. What do you think about that phrase, emotional intelligence? Do leaders need to have an emotional intelligence? I think you need emotional awareness, maybe. I think intelligence implies you have it or you don't.

And some people have it, it's easier for them than others i think you need emotional you know awareness meaning that you need to understand emotionally what is motivating the people that work for you and and how you get that awareness is different for everybody uh you know whether you're an extrovert or introvert it doesn't matter if your goal is awareness then how do you get that is that is that doing a lot of one-on-ones with your employees or your directors or is it you know are you more extroverted and you can get a group of folks together and kind of talk and pontificate and motivate them that way but i think you it comes down to really how do you communicate and how do you listen and i think anyone that has you know high emotional awareness it's probably an or ultimately

intelligence is because they probably learn how to listen at a young age and they just know to listen to try to understand the situation from the person they're talking to vice just trying to you know put my direction on you or make sure you're you understand my goals i i want to know your goals i want to know what that person's motivated by, and that's different for everybody. Yeah. And that's really important because, you know, it's that difference between being a manager where you're more concerned about your goals and a leader. You know, let me ask you this. I had somebody argue with me one time, you know, I've been a CEO of my company since I was 18. I hope I understand somewhat, something about leadership.

But I had a manager argue with me once about leading from the front. Does a leader lead from the front, or does a leader lead from behind? Well, you know, in the military, they like to say you lead from the front, but clearly if you're a senior leader, you're not on the front line, as it were, because

you're trying to be in a position where you can make the best decision. And I think you need to show that you, anything you're asking them to do, that you understand that risk and you've either done it before or you can, but arguably, you know, if you're a leader needed to make big strategic decisions or even tackle

decisions, you know, look at the military scenario. If you're there with a gun in hand at the front line, you're not probably paying attention to all the other information out there to make the right decisions on where you want the organization to go. So, you know, some of the great corporate leaders, they're not necessarily on the assembly line turning wrenches. They might go do it occasionally, but you have to be in the right position to, again, come down to have that emotional awareness. And that doesn't mean you have to be the person in the front however i think when you see there's a good balance there and you know

the idea that leaders eat last is important you know i don't like to especially on a ship where you have a lot of in the navy with a lot of tradition it's easy to have stovepiped areas where you're going to eat and different foods and stuff you know and i saw particularly from the marines um and general mattis was a good example this is you know that he'd walk into a and different foods and stuff. And I saw, particularly from the Marines, and General Mattis was a good example of this, is that he'd walk into a chow hall and they'd want to make him a beeline for the front of the line and get his food and sit down. And he and many others have always said,

no, I'm going to wait until I make sure that my crew, the people I'm entrusted to take care of, eat first. So that's kind of the difference, I think, is be willing to do whatever you ask your people to do. Uh, I think that's important, but I also think there's a leader. You probably make some cases,

your best decisions. If you're stepping back and looking at the big picture. There you go. It's your, it's people first, man. That's, that's what you're saying.

I mean, and, and, and people see that, uh, in you as a leader. I mean, the one thing i talked about

in my book beacons leadership is you send forth that beacon uh from a lighthouse as a leader that that communicates you know your ethics your values and if you're if you're making pr you know pr issues of hey the company's morals are this and you're operating uh against those morals in opposite way you're like hey we're a trusted organization meanwhile i'm ripping money off out of the company um people see that and they go hey this this guy's you know as george carlin used to say he's full of shit um so i i love how that uh sort of mantra is in there and so a lot of people are going to learn about leadership and running organizations, I think, from your book. Does that sound about right?

Yeah, I hope it, you know, I hope there's folks in the military that like it just because they have some good sea stories they might be part of. But I try to write, again, to a broad audience in a way that, you know, whether you ever spend a day in the military or not, the lessons, the things I were taught along the way, and what I think is a great learning environment for leadership in the military, that they'll take that with them in the corporate world or the nonprofit world or just their day-to-day world, because I think there's lessons in there. It's leadership. It's life. I'm not teaching how to surf in the book, so if you're picking it up, I think you're going to surf.

But I'll tell you, I think fine, whatever it is for you is surfing, right? That's in book two, evidently. How to surf. i'll tell you you know it's i think fine you're fine whatever it is for you is surfing right that's you that's that's in book two evidently uh how to surf if i do there you go how to surf i mean hey i i i wish i'd learned to surf i'm not sure i can learn to serve now my old age and my bad knees and and so maybe i need to lose a little bit more weight but i'm definitely shark material uh so you know they're gonna see me and they're gonna be like well uh let's go for that so you know when you're skinny like you guys you know you they're they're gonna be like that's just all bones we're not gonna mess with that but me they would definitely be like hey it's lunchtime um you know we've we've had lots of uh uh military folks on the show and we've talked

about ptsd and you know high high suicide for military officers especially veterans it's it's shocking to me how how you know we have we have people that we've trained in leadership and they're running billion dollar planes and stuff. You know, we've sent them to run billion dollar planes, but they position out of the military and they struggle to find jobs or works, you know, homeless veterans, et cetera, and suicide veterans as well. What can we do better as American people to support the military better, understand them more, and try and support veterans better? Yeah, it's a great question. That's what I do now in the nonprofit world as I run Veterans Village of San Diego. We focus on homeless veterans and veterans that have struggled transitioning, whether it's mental health or drug abuse or just employment stuff. And we serve about

3,000 veterans and their families every year. But it's beyond just the veterans that I'm talking about that I see every day. It applies to anybody really transitioning from the military. You're coming from a way of life. It's not just a job. And I even see that in my nonprofit work

where things I take for granted or things I say from my military time where I would never think twice about it. I say it now and they're, you know, like the example would be PT. I said, told somebody the other day, I'm going to go PT. And I'm like, what does that mean? Physical therapy? I'm like, no, I'm going to go do physical training. I'm like, I've never heard that before. And in my mind, I'm like, well, that's, there's a good reminder that, you know, not everybody speaks the same language. So i think if you're an employer i think if you you get a veteran you get somebody with military background you're going to get

somebody that works extremely hard very focused on the mission and still learning what that means but that will overcome any other stuff he or she might be going through i think it's worth right even if they don't speak the language even if you know i i ran a 10 billion dollar aircraft care but it doesn't mean that i run a $10 billion corporate budget. Those are different things, and you do them different ways. But there's a lot of good skills that you bring from the military, and I think the civilian side should do what they can to help them out. One, because I think it's beneficial to your company.

I think any veteran you hire will be value-added in many ways, in ways you probably don't even anticipate. But then for the veterans that struggle or the veterans that get into drugs or they suffer from serious mental health problems, we do want to help them. And I think that's where the nonprofit world and the VA and different experts

of the government can come in to help. And I would encourage anybody to get involved in that, volunteer, whether it's once a week, once a month. I actually try to volunteer throughout my entire career, like it with Habitat for Humanity or different things based on where I lived. And now I, you know, I do it full time, but, but I think everybody would learn from it. And you could take the homeless situation as an example. We all see it, depending where you live, it's, it's greater than other places and it's a complex problem and it's easy to discount it and just kind of write it off as the city's problem or the county's problem. But everyone can make a difference.

And I think that regardless if you have any experience with veterans, whether it's a veteran homeless or a non-veteran homeless program or any nonprofit, I think there's a lot to be gained from it. And you get to learn about folks that sign up to serve their country and just somehow tripped and stumbled as they came out or years after they left the military. And I think we owe it to them to try to help them out and get back on their feet. Yeah. My friends that have cycled in and out of tours of duty, you know, they've struggled with, you know, the loss of the band of brothers. The loss of, you know, hey, Chris, in iraq i got i got people on my back you know they're they have my back i'm alone here like and nobody nobody's going to cover me nobody's going to back me up i you know when i'm there i'm in the action i'm in the juice but i also have that band of brothers well what if the what if there was like a military social media

network that would help you know just for the military and ex-military probably won't not for current military because you know maybe somebody share some secret i don't know you know some weird stuff and go on somebody say something get in trouble um but you mean for ex-veterans to have that virtual band of brothers i don't know there's an idea yeah there's and there are i mean that's what's great about you know internet and there's a lot of communities out there they can be part of, there's a lot of great organizations that are national, like whether it's Hiring Our Heroes or even, I mean, the VA itself is a network that takes care of veterans that might be in need. you come from this organization that faces high risk operations life or death operations it develops a lot of trust um you know to the point you know here's what you said is you know someone's got your back it's life or death so you're looking for that same kind of sense of

teamwork and camaraderie and you're probably not going to ever find it like you did when you're in the military because you're ideally not doing life or death stuff now if you go first responder maybe you'll you'll find that in the police force or fire department or something like that. But in general, if you go to a corporate world or business world, you're probably not going to ever get that same sense of trust. And that's sometimes disheartening and sometimes makes people uncomfortable because they just don't know where they fit in because of that.

I think they figure out over time. They also tend to then ideally have a strong family or network to your point that they can leverage and reach out to to help help fill that void there you go more support for our veterans you know we we live in a time that's kind of interesting where we've had peacetime for a long time up until the uh the iraq war uh with russia um and it seems like a lot of americans kind of started taking the military for granted and veterans for granted and and not even like realizing the the you know the the sacrifice that the people make i mean you're putting your life on your line it's not like you guys are out there

just eating donuts and doritos hanging out and shaking saber out at people it's a big deal to cut that line in the sand and let everybody know that, you know, we can, we can go at a moment's notice if you don't, if everyone doesn't keep in line and mind their manners. Yeah. I mean, I think you're speaking to like the fatigue as a nation that we have after now decades of conflict. I think, you know, I go back to 9-11 and 2001 and the sense of pride and camaraderie we felt at all levels of the government and certainly across the country. It was an interesting time. But then you fast forward 20 years later, I think people have got fatigued.

I don't think people discount veterans. I think there's a lot of great programs that didn't exist 20 years ago. I think there's a lot more effort put into trying to place veterans in the right kind of company. So I think that we've done a good job of continuing to take care of veterans and active duty, for that matter, as a country and fund them appropriately. But I think we've gotten fatigued with maybe our foreign policy is where we kind of try to draw that delineation. I think we're all tired of being, I mean, you join the military, you know you might have to fight, but you don't necessarily want to do that every day. You're not, you know, I mean, you join the military, you know, you might have to fight, but you don't necessarily want to do that every day. You're not, you know, you actually like the idea of being strong, but not having to use it and kill people.

But 20 years of foreign policy that's kept us in a place that we thought we were only going to be for months. People are fatigued. The nation's fatigued, both financially, politically, you know, emotionally. And so my hope is that people continue to support the veterans and active duty military and those that sign up to serve, but then take their frustration towards foreign policy, which is really where I think people get concerned, and then take that to the ballot box. And that's your way to influence that. And so far, I think we've done a good job of delineating the two, but over time, you get worried this will not.

And military becomes more of a stovepipe caste system where people serve because their parents served and not beyond that. And that's not where we want to be either, I think, as a nation. Definitely. We need to definitely respect the sacrifice that people make. And I think we just had Memorial Day. Let me ask you this. We had Don Bentley on the show. He's one of the writers for the tom clancy series and he i believe he talked about how uh you know the navy of china is bigger than ours where you mentioned the south china sea issues earlier um and and i think he said to me

a statistic that kind of blew my mind he said that their Navy is growing at the rate of the Australian Navy like every year or something, which is kind of weird if you know everything that's going on in that theater. What are your thoughts on that? As a Navy, are we going to be able to compete with them? Do we need to elect more leaders to throw more money at that? Do you have any thoughts on that you want to bring up? Yeah, no, it's a complex problem i think

i'm a big believer in and peace through strength meaning the stronger our military is the less likely we'll actually go have conflict because we'll make the outcomes of those decisions so untenable by our adversaries that they won't even want to consider it um the challenge becomes then can you can we keep up with the Chinese Navy specifically? They're building fast. They're learning fast. I think we still have decades of experience ahead of them in terms of how you operate, how you fight. You know, we had Chinese nationals on a ship many years ago here in San Diego.

And they were fascinated by not just the technology and the stuff we would show them, which is all, you know, unclassified stuff, obviously, but they're also very fascinated how we operated and how we, you know, launched airplanes. And, and they, I think they dawned on them that they were still decades behind.

They could build those ships. They could build similar ships, probably not the same quality. Um, but it's the training piece that they find themselves behind. So as a nation, we have to be cognizant of what it takes to counter not just the actual conflict that might or might not come, but how do we deter it from ever happening?

And that's the conundrum because we are limited. We have resource limited in terms of funding and what we can spend and how much do we want to spend on it. And is that the right tactic? Is it a zero sum game that you're only going to have one winner in the South China Sea? And if that's the approach that there's a zero sum game, you have one winner, one loser China Sea. And if that's the approach, that there's a zero-sum game, that you have one winner, one loser, that's kind of the path we're on, and we have to then prepare appropriately. I'd like to think at the diplomatic level, we all win. We figure out a way to negotiate.

We figure out a way to operate in the area together. And that's obviously hard because now you have personified people changing administrations, and that's a much more complex thing so all the military can do is not worry about the politics of it just be as prepared as possible and ask for what they need which they do a pretty good job of doing that um but with an eye towards the chinese growth to your point which some point is uh you know strength in numbers as they say and then they're approaching those points here pretty soon there you go you know they say that one of the reasons the ussr finally folded the old soviet government folded is when they watched us in iraq and they went holy shit these guys got cameras on

bombs and shit like like why are we trying to keep up with these guys and uh you know the one of the few good things you can say about the ukraine war it's a horrific thing that's killing civilians um is that it really exposed how bad their leadership is and their military and hopefully china has taken a second look at that i think they have and gone maybe you know like what we speak about here today and in your book in the leadership and the way the u.s government runs its military and trains and stuff over you know those these last 250 odd years um you know there really is something about it that's just more than the hardware of well we got a ship yeah i think i mean i think any successful organization whether it's military corporate or non-profit it takes good

leadership and that and that sometimes makes the biggest difference leaders focused on the people as much as they are the product or the ship as it were um i think that's where you know our adversaries are paying attention to but they they come from systems where it tends to be more hierarchical and decisions have to be made at the highest level and that slows down no matter how many ships you have or airplanes you have it tends to slow down yourical and decisions have to be made at the highest level. And that slows down no matter how many ships you have or airplanes you have. It tends to slow down your ability to fight. And we're seeing that play out now in Ukraine, I think, with the Russians. And I think that the question then should be, you know, what does this South China Sea look like?

How do they fight and where do they compare? And how do we make sure we're making decisions quicker and more effectively and therefore taking advantage of any kind of miracle in fear you know and superiority we have if their numbers are greater there there you go well i'm glad i got the u.s military on my side because uh uh i i i don't think i want to fight anybody else you know i grew up i grew up shaking under the desk uh you know to protect me from nuclear war because that works those steel desks i grew up with ussr and so to watch the us the russian military do its thing i'm just like seriously i was scared of you in fourth grade

um but there you go uh my last question to you is do you have a favorite book on leadership is there a number one favorite or something you go back to for leadership to read so i do in your own book right right yeah um i yeah. I mean, I like McRaven's books. I think it's simple and they're easy to read and easy to relate and easy I can tell those stories on to my kids or my sons and stuff. In a way, it's applicable. I do like some of the, I mean, I do like some of the philosophy books with Marcus Aurelius and, you know, I love Ryan Holiday's Daily Stoic

because sometimes when you have a moment, you can pick it up and read one page. And so I think, I don't know that I have a favorite. I like to diversify, I guess, my reading, as they say. My 2B red pile is certainly much bigger than my, you know, it grows much quicker than I can keep up with it. But I like, I do. I think I found a lot from reading some of the philosophers we've discussed today because I think there's amazing relevance today reading some of the philosophers we've discussed today, because I think there's amazing relevance today, many, many, many years later, and they're still

applicable. I find that fascinating. It's fascinating, too, because you're reading. You're like, was he around, right? Does he know what's going on right now? And you're like, wait, this is like Roman times? Like, oh, there you go. Well, it's been an honor, to have you on and thank you for

your service and everything went on i think it was just it was just a beautiful viral moment to see your your crew uh you know give you a standing ovation and cheer you as you left the ship and just the outpouring of love is a testament i think to your leadership to how you're regarded by your people and uh certainly when i walked around my business ships, no one gets up and claps. In fact, they usually throw eggs and tomatoes and stuff. So I think it's just a testament to the quality of character that you have.

And hopefully people will pick that up in the book, learn from it and become better leaders. Thanks, Chris. Yeah. I enjoyed the chat today and it was certainly a fun book to write, and I hope people enjoy it. There you go. Give us your.com so people can find you on the internet.

Yeah, it's surfwhenyoucan.com, and the book you can order now on Amazon or Borders or any major retailer as well, and the book comes out June 13th. There you go. Order it up, folks, wherever fine books are sold. Surf When You Can, Lessons in Life, Loyalty, and Leadership 13th. There you go. Order it up, folks, wherever fine books are sold. Surf when you can. Lessons in Life, Loyalty, and Leadership from a Maverick Navy

Captain, available June 13th, 2023. Thanks to everyone for coming by the show. We certainly appreciate you. Go to goodreads.com, 4chesschristmas, youtube.com, 4chesschristmas, linkedin.com, 4chesschristmas, and TikTok. For the love of God, we're trying to be cool over there. It's not working. They just look at us and goiktok for the love of god we're trying to be cool over there it's not

working and now they just look at us and go you guys are kind of old and uncool and then we're just like we're cool but they're not buying it anyway thanks for everyone for tuning in be good to each other stay safe and we'll see you guys next time