The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The 80/80 Marriage: A New Model for a Happier, Stronger Relationship by Nate Klemp PhD, Kaley Klemp

Episode Date: February 16, 2021

The 80/80 Marriage: A New Model for a Happier, Stronger Relationship by Nate Klemp PhD, Kaley Klemp An accessible, transformative guide for couples seeking greater love, connection, and intimacy in our modern world Nate and Kaley Klemp were both successful in their careers, consulting for high-powered companies around the world. Their work as mindfulness and leadership experts, however, often fell to the wayside when they came home in the evening, only to end up fighting about fairness in their marriage. They believed in a model where each partner contributed equally and fairness ruled, but, in reality, they were finding that balance near impossible to achieve. From this frustration, they developed the idea of the 80/80 marriage, a new model for balancing career, family, and love. The 80/80 Marriage pushes couples beyond the limited idea of "fairness" toward a new model grounded on radical generosity and shared success, one that calls for each partner to contribute 80 percent to build the strongest possible relationship. Drawing from more than one hundred interviews with couples from all walks of life, stories from business and pop culture, scientific studies, and ancient philosophical insights, husband-and-wife team Nate and Kaley Klemp pinpoint exactly what's not working in modern marriage. Their 80/80 model of marriage provides practical, powerful solutions to transform your relationship and open up space for greater love and connection.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain now here's your host chris voss hi folks this is voss here from the chris voss show.com the chris voss show.com hey we're coming to you from the interwebs you another podcast guys we certainly appreciate you guys tuning in be sure to go to youtube.com fortune s chris voss subscribe there so you can see the

live video version of this broadcast you can check it out there go to goodreads.com fortune s chris voss you can see all the books you're reading and reviewing there go to facebook.com you may have heard of it lately you can subscribe at the chris voss show and there's four or five groups there you're going to linkedin.com and subscribe to me there at ch can subscribe at the chris voss show and there's four or five groups there you go to linkedin.com and subscribe to me there at chris voss the chris voss show there's a 135 000 group c class people over there you can subscribe to and also see us on the instagram or as the kids like to call it the inn no they don't it's the insta i don't even know what the kids are calling and i'm 53 give me a break So we have some exciting authors today on the show.

If you're married, you probably definitely want to stay tuned, especially maybe, I don't know, if you want to stay married. They've got some good advice as to what works for them and some of the different things that they research and study over the years. The book is called The 80-80 Marriage, A New Model for happier, stronger relationship. This book is hot. I tell you, hot off the presses. I couldn't touch my computer screen. It just came out February 9th, 2021. So you want to pick this baby up. The two authors are a married couple, Nate Klempp, PhD, and Kaylee Klempp, and they join us on the show. Welcome. How are you folks? Hey, great to be here, Chris. Thanks for having us. Yeah, we are doing well.

Doing well. Great. So give us your plugs so people can find you on the interwebs, and I'm going to drag your bios out of both of you if you don't mind. Sure thing. Yeah, we are at 8080marriage.com. We are also 8080marriage on Instagram, 8080marriage on Facebook, and those also 8080marriage on Instagram, 8080marriage on Facebook. And those are the main places you can find us. Yep. There you go. And then give us a rundown of your bios and backgrounds and what brought you this moment. So I am coming to you from a perspective of executive coaching and facilitation. So I spend most of my time when I'm not writing about and thinking about marriage with executives and their teams, helping them communicate and lead more effectively. Yes. And I'm a recovering academic. I used to be

a philosophy professor. That was my profession for a while. And then I got very interested in mindfulness and self-development about 12 years ago. So that's been my field. I'm the founding partner at mindful, uh, mindful magazine and also the husband of Kaylee and the coauthor. He should have put that first. I read the book. So very good guys. It's wonderful that you guys are joining us and congratulations on the book. I know it's a lot of work and research that goes into these things. And of course you guys have done a lot of research on your own being married. How long have you guys been married, if you don't mind me asking? 15 years as of, gosh, a couple of weeks ago.

Boy, you guys sure look young. Congratulations. Thank you. There you go. Did you guys get married when you were 12? It was like- We did. It was one of those arranged marriages.

Okay. It was in Utah or something? Don't ask questions you don't want to know the answer. Close enough. Close enough. Yeah, really. There you go. so what motivated you guys to want to write this book this was actually born out of our own experience so we actually we didn't get married when we were 12 but we did meet when we were 17 so we were high school lab partners in chemistry

and we internalized the messages that society was giving us about be your best and achieve your potential. And each went off to pursue our careers, which you heard about academia and coaching and executive facilitation. And what was interesting is that when we got married, initially we could stay kind of doing our own projects. And then we had a daughter and our life completely blew up. So it sounds ridiculous, but it actually kind of everything hit the fan about a pickup time on who was going to greet the school bus. So when our first grader came off, who was going to be there to meet her? And from my perspective, I was traveling two to three days a week, working with clients. I loved my work. And I was like, well, obviously Nate should do it.

Yeah. I mean, from my perspective, that's her job. I have a job too, right? She should be the one picking up our kid. Was that a gender sort of a decision or? No, I think it was both of us just wanting time for our career, for our own individual projects and feeling like the other person should be the one to compromise here. And I think it was also an underhanded way that he wanted me to be home more. And so he could sort of use our daughter as leverage. You could imagine this

conversation was not going well. We were each advocating for our own positions. And there was a certain point where we're like, this would be something totally ridiculous to blow up over. There just has to be a better way. And that really led us down the path of this project. There you go. I have to do a fallback joke on, you guys have been in chemistry class. So you guys basically found you had chemistry.

Sorry, I couldn't leave it. There were many jokes about that at our wedding. There were a lot of chemistry jokes. Yes, there you go. So with this dilemma, was this one of the first presentations of challenges between the two of you and maybe a bit of a power struggle or decision struggle? I would say that from the very moment we got married, there were all sorts of issues that we had no idea're coming our way. And the fundamental one, I think, that really led us to write this book is, unlike our parents, we had this view that we are equals. We are both going all out in our careers.

We have our personal ambitions. And yet here we are getting married, wanting to be in love and share a life together. And there was just this inherent contradiction between those two. And that played out throughout most of our marriage. And it's really what led us to write this book, because we kept asking, what's the answer to how to be equals and in love? And we didn't see any answers. I mean, there's some bad ones, make everything 50-50 fair, which we can talk about why that's a terrible answer. But we didn't see any good ones. Yeah. So let's go do an overview of the thing, but let me ask you about the title first, because the title is quite interesting. I made a joke pre-show about how it says the 80-80 marriage,

and there's only two of you, which would be 50-50. So is there a third wife polygamist? I'm just kidding. Or a third husband. I want to be equal here. Exactly. There you go. You know, people work that way. I'm like a fourth husband, but I think I'm the pool boy. I want to be equal here. And there you go. You know, people work that way. I'm like a fourth husband, but I'm, I think I'm the pool boy. I don't know. It's like, it's like the third wheel, only more complicated. Yeah, it always is. So why, what is the title 8080 mean? I'm sure a lot of people are thinking. Yeah. So what are these numbers? Because the math really, really doesn't work. So the idea is each of these numbers is about this spirit of contribution that you're bringing to the relationship. So the foil is

really 50-50, which Nate talked about as sort of a terrible idea where you say, I'm going to do my half and my part, but only my half and my part. Whereas with 80-80, the idea is to intentionally do more than my fair share. And by contributing from this mindset of generosity, of trying to do more, it actually, it creates a sentiment and a feeling in your relationship of contribution and appreciation. And that really changes everything. Now with the math not working, it's true. The math doesn't work, but it's interesting. That's kind of the point that if you limit marriage, where it's like all that's available is this, you know, tiny fixed pie, that doesn't give you as much to work with. Whereas when you sort of blow it out and say,

all right, it might not make sense, but love also kind of doesn't make sense. That's true. If you've seen anyone I've been in love with, or maybe they've been in love with me, I think that's the real problem. I have issues. But no, I like this idea because I've had business partners. My first business partner was my best friend for 22 years, business partner for 13.

And so I know what it's like sometimes with a relationship, not a friendship, business partner relationship, where that person stops giving beyond their their minimal output of 50%. And they just go, they just go, well, I'm just going to phone in my 50%. And after that, I'm not done. I'm out. Yeah. I was just gonna say, it's so funny, you mentioned the business partner piece, we just wrote an article in Inc magazine, about exactly this about-founders and how some of these principles of marriage, it sounds crazy, but you could actually use them for these co-founder relationships. Because I'm the same. I've had these co-founder relationships in my past, and they're very complicated, just as complicated as a marriage many times. Yeah.

And a lot of times, like if I think if I had, I've often said if I had partners in the future, there would be a perform agreement. Because just because you own 49% of the company, I usually own 51. It doesn't mean that you should get a 49% payout based upon your stock. You should be, there should be a per diem based upon your performa. Maybe they need to do that in marriages. That's just maybe. And every day you get a report card. Yeah, there's like an accounting firm that comes in and goes, uh, tally everything, the dishes today. He's clearly at 75% of his age, Bob, we need you to come in more. And then, and then of course it stacks. So eventually you get a bill at the end of the year, which is probably what divorce court is. Anyway, so give us an overview of some-50 fairness as almost like the cultural center of gravity

right now for modern relationships that, again, we're coming into relationships with this question, how do we be equals and in love? The obvious answer is, well, let's just make everything perfectly fair. And it seems like a great answer. We thought it was a great answer. We tried it for 10 years, just about destroyed each other and our relationship by doing that. And so, and there are a couple of reasons for this. One is that it's just not very loving, definitely not all that sexy to try to be keeping a mental tally of what you do, what your partner does, leads to resentment and all sorts of conflict. But then there's one other thing that's really fascinating. There's all this research in psychology showing that we consistently overestimate what we do and underestimate what our partner does. That's just like the cognitive biases of our mind. It's programmed to do that. And it's interesting because it makes sense if you just try it out in your own life. I am

intimately familiar with every dish I've washed, with every trash can I've emptied, but it gets a little fuzzy. How long did it take to practice those spelling words? And how did that gutter get fixed? I wasn't there for that. So it couldn't have been that long. You know, you speak to a question that I had prepped up. One of the problems I had in my relationships was if if the other person didn't see it happen did it happen it was like a tree fell in the woods sort of thing and so you would be like well i didn't wash the dishes because i wanted to wait for you to come home from work so you could see me like because because i would get accused all the time be like you don't

do anything right you didn't do the fucking dishes. And I'm like, maybe you should open the dishwasher and see. They're in there. But if I unload it, the dishwasher should be like, you didn't do anything. And I'm like, well, I did the dishes. But it's one of those things. So how do you resolve that dilemma? Well, it's so interesting, too, Chris, that rather than waiting, so you can be like, now you will watch me load the dishwasher. Now you will watch me load the dishwasher. Now you will watch me unload the dishwasher. I think you're speaking to something that's really common, especially because a lot of the work in intimate relationships is invisible.

That even if they were there to watch it, you can't actually witness someone thinking through, how are we going to celebrate your mom's 70th birthday? There's not a way to know how much energy is going into something. And so the emotional labor that happens in relationships, even if they were there, it'd be like, are you thinking? How long has it taken? You can't do it. And the other piece of that that I think is so interesting is that we're also tempted to overestimate everything that we do and underestimate everything that our partner does. And there's a bunch of research that validates this, but I think that the best way to think about it is like Calvin and Hobbes and

pushups. So if you're a Calvin and Hobbes fan, I am one of my favorite versions of this cartoon is he's doing pushups and he counts by by how it feels so it goes something like one two 20 100 and that's often how it feels like cleaning the bathroom feels like 100 push-ups you just described my workout i get on the treadmill and i'm like 10 seconds five minutes yeah one minute 20 minutes yeah oh yeah that was an hour yeah now i needed an outburger but no this is really important because i've heard this in a lot of psychology for relationships and stuff me being single all my life all my all my men friends call me and and try and get advice from me or something and i just always i i just do what i do i just go so what's the problem and

they tell me and they go so here's the problem you have two choices in life you can either be smart or you can either be right with her or you can be happy there are two choices you can only choose one so just just remember you're the guy so you're just wrong 100 of the time which probably is a good advice probably why half my friends are divorced but i don't know i've made a lot of women rich. Let's put it that way. Yeah. If you ever need it, but no, I'm just kidding. So, but, but it's interesting to me, I've heard a lot of people that have, have had this attitude, like you, like you, a spouse where they're like, I'm only doing my 50% and I've done it. And I'm done. It's three o'clock in the afternoon. They're like, I've done my part. I do nothing therefore from here athon out it is now upon you and and you're like wow you guys are really in love with

each other you're in the you're in this uh boat you're both technically a tag a team against life a tag team against life and everything that comes at you and and yet you're putting these standards of these these these limitations on your relationship where you're like, I will do just the bare minimum. Totally. Yeah. I mean, we like to think of this, it's almost like tug of war or something where you're pulling on opposite ends of a rope and you're extending so much effort and there's so much stress and it's so hard.

And I guess what we're saying in this book in a way is you could just drop the rope and think about how much more energy you would have and how much less stress you would have in your life instead of pushing against each other, pulling against each other, moving in the same direction, being more of a team instead of in this power struggle. It's really kind of transformative. I mean, at least it was for us when we started experiencing that and then putting that into the book and interviewing couples. And we found in these interviews, the couples, the harder they pull, the more miserable they are. There's a direct

correlation there. Yeah. And I think that's part of what makes radical generosity so radical, that the idea of trying to do more, it doesn't actually fit most of our paradigm. Well, wait a second. That's for sure not fair. Why would I do that? And we're sort of trained to make sure that we don't carry the school project or do more than our part. And so to have that really transformed in our relationship is a really different notion

of how to do things. And yet, as Nate's saying, it creates so much energy that actually creates a virtuous cycle. You're giving me a good idea for the next time I'm in a relationship. That'll happen. No, I'm just kidding. I'm broken in a lot of ways, if you can't tell already. But next time I'm going to do I'm going to install cameras like the little cameras, I'll put one in the dishwasher dishwasher and I'll put one throughout the kitchen and wherever else. One of my big, one of my big relationship crimes is throwing my underwear and the socks on the floor in the bathroom after I get out and all that stuff. And then I leave them there. It's a horrible thing.

I'm just an abusive spouse or relationship person, evidently from what I've been told. But I think what I'll do is, is put down a thing. So what are some good, I'll put cameras everywhere. So what are some good examples of applying the 80-80 rule that you can give people? Yeah, well, there's a couple of things you can do pretty easily. The first is just doing one radically generous act each day can be transformative. And this is not crazy. You don't have to take your partner to Fiji. Not that you could right now, but it doesn't have to be some over-the-top lavish experience. It can be making your partner a cup of coffee, giving them a hug at the end of a long day. Picking up your underwear. Picking up your underwear. Just as an example, we had

a night just a couple nights ago where i was really stressed i went to bed i saw a little post-it note on my nightstand from kaylee just wishing me good luck with the book launch and it totally changed the the energy of the of our connection and my day and one of the things i know you're joking about the cameras, but one of the sort of pro tips. No, I'm not actually. He's doing the cameras. I'm doing the cameras. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Katie, but I am doing the cameras. Pro tip is see if you can contribute without getting caught.

So there is something that is kind of fun around, can I unload the dishwasher and have them expect to come home, have to do it, and be like, oh my gosh, that was so cool. Or get in their car and be like, oh man, I forgot I had to get gas and have it show up with a full tank. But there's something about the surprise element that has it feel more like a gift rather than some sort of scorekeeping. Or announcing, did you see the dishwasher? I just unloaded it. I am now unloading the dishwasher.

What I would do is I'd put those new security cameras that send like a notification. It's like the dishwasher is now opened and here's the video of that. Oh, that's perfect. Yeah. Just constant notifications throughout the day. Yeah. Yeah. I'm brilliant. I'm going to start selling this IOT. That's a big idea. Like body cams for the man as he's going around changing diapers and I don't know so just a quick call out station break to my clubhouse audience thanks for everyone for tuning in seeing you guys there if you do have questions that we haven't answered already because

I mean I don't know why a broken single guy is left answering these questions because what do I know about marriage right to Instagram on my thing and we'll vet them here in a bit once we wind down a little bit so what are some other, guys, on what's in the book and how to apply it to having a successful marriage? So the second piece that we were just talking about, so in radical generosity, it's really this mindset. And you start with contribution. And then it's sort of like call and response. The second piece of that is about appreciation. And we think about that as just which glasses are you wearing in your relationship so most of us by default are wearing the glasses where we catch our partner doing everything wrong so we catch all the times that they fall short we catch all the times that they mess up that

they don't follow through and if instead you take off those glasses and put on the glasses of catching them doing something right and then then appreciating them for it, it also really changes the feel in your relationship. So we think, what do you do? That's contribution. What do you see? That's appreciation. And then what do you say?

And that's about revealing. And that's catching all those little things. I think about them a little bit like, you know, the pee under the princess's mattress. I think there were like 40 mattresses on top of that pee. And yet it was interfering. A lot of times in marriage, something small will cascade and snowball. And so the best practice is, can you just reveal it? Hey, this was my inner experience.

And here's my request. When you didn't include me in the decision about how we were going to engage with our friends, I felt really surprised. And then I felt scared with what showed up next time. Can you just check with me before you say that? And I'm like, Oh yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that concept because I've been in a lot of relationships and I feel like stuff stacks where it's well, you did this and you did this and you did this and and it doesn't help that i'm broken so there is stuff that stacks but i i'll be in psychology for the rest of my freaking life but that's just me but no in relationships there's a point sometimes where you do get to that point where everything you're doing is wrong the they're

building like you said through those glasses and and they're seeing okay well there he goes again he does another one of those things. He brought home another hooker tonight. I don't know what's going on with him. He needs to get the 80-80 rule. But, I mean, never mind. I'm not going to do that joke. I mean, I was trying to make more.

Never mind, to get to 80. Anyway, the Clemson are like, we know why he's single the, but you know, it may be a good thing for your book for future books anyway, but no, I see why this is important because it does stack up. It does build up. And, and once it starts to do, you just get that in the back of your mind. And I'm sure that changes the energy of the relationship because you're not really focused on what that person is doing. That's good. You're focused on what they're doing is bad and finding those elements. And what you see is what you get or what you

focus on is what you get. I think that that last part, you completely nailed it because actually the exact same thing can show up in really different ways. So in our interviews, we had conversations where people would tell us stories and the same situation would show up. There would be, hey, I went for a walk with a friend and I came back and there's pancake batter all over the kitchen. There's a blanket fort. There's everything is a disaster. And person one looks at that

with the old glasses of fairness and resentment. And they're like, damn it, spouse. You know, how come for one hour, I go one hour and when I come back to the disaster, where's person two's back? And they're like, oh my gosh, you guys had a blast. I'm going to hop in the shower. See if you can turn cleanup into a game, same situation to totally different reactions to it. You bring up an interesting

point. There's, there's almost like this weighing system of scales where like I was having fun or you were having fun and I had to stay home with the kids while you're out with your friends and things like that where, you know, I've even been told that I'm having fun at work and, and while they're staying at home having to do chores. And I'm like, have you been to my work lately? Yeah. How do you balance? This is probably a good question because I've been in relationships. And one of my things is I understand a lot of what you're talking about, aside from my weird jokes, because I've always been a giver. I'm that guy who gives 100% or 120%. Usually it's money. Usually it's everything that I can possibly give. And sometimes I've been in relationships where it's not enough. And that's usually what drives me away. And actually, one of the main reasons I'm single, when the truth be told, is because I give so much. Sometimes I've been accused of giving so much that I spoil people. And because I try and do so much for them, I try and care so much.

And I sometimes cripple another person in giving back because I overwhelm them. And I've been accused of that. And sometimes there's, and I don't know how you do it in a marriage, but you know, one of my challenges was I run good businesses. There's been times in my life where I made extreme amounts of money and there's a lot of spoiling. I pay for everything. And, and, and yet I expect some balance and I don't find that balance there, but I'm one of those givers. So I just go, whatever, man, I'm just plowing through. I'm busy. I got shit to do. And, and so either that person becomes crippled because I don't expect them to uphold their end of the bargain or some of the, any of the, their bargain. And then, and then when I do call that out, then I'm just a jerk and an asshole for being like, well, could you at least go to the store and buy some groceries? Yeah. So how do you balance that out or work that out? Well, there's a couple things there. I mean, it's such a great question. So first of all, one of the things we're often asked is, okay, 80-80 marriage, why not 100-100 marriage? That's

radical generosity. Do everything for your spouse and hopefully they'll do everything for you. And the reason we didn't call this the 100-100 marriage is that we think that for a lot of marriages, people are getting stuck with this 50-50 power struggle over fairness. So we think that radical generosity, what we're proposing here, is a good corrective to that. It's a way of moving out of that power struggle. But there's also a risk of overdoing radical generosity, right? So you can go so far with radical generosity that you completely lose yourself. And we talked to a lot of people in the interviews for this book, who basically said, there's one man who said, look, it was like I was waiting for a bus in life. And I got on the bus and the bus was marriage.

And then the bus was kids. And then I looked around and I realized I had no individual self. I had just given everything away. And so we think that extra 20% there is important because it's always important to also have your own individual projects and desires and values and things like that and to not give everything away to the relationship. So there's kind of like this middle point that we're trying to reach between that power struggle and just complete sort of martyrdom, giving it all up. Yeah. I love that. Where were you guys like the last 20 years when I was having relationships

all the time? We're here for you now, Chris. Okay. Well, it's, there's always a restart somewhere in my life, but no, I think that's important, but aren't you getting back to counting though, play devil's advocate of like, well, you're like, well, I'm at 80% now. So I time to stop or something. I don't know. Yeah. Well, I think that there's a risk in what you're describing around sort of

creating always measuring, which is in mindset, there's not actually a there, there means your point. Fairness is a mirage in the desert. 80 is not a scorecard. If it's 79% or 83%, it's really about the spirit of contribution. And that's a little bit less measurable. Yeah. Go ahead. So is maybe doing less measuring the important part of it then? I think it's both doing less measuring.

And then there's sort of a second part of the book that we haven't talked very much about yet, which is once you have that mindset of radical generosity, how do you define shared success? And that I think helps us get out of that counting and more toward, okay, what are we up to together as a couple? And it starts with something as sort of basic and yet important as shared values. And it sounds sort of silly, but in interviewing couples, there was not a single definition of shared success. The people had aligned their lives

around really different pursuits. So for some people it was financial security, for other people it was around raising happy kids. One of our favorite stories of this couple called the Honey Trekkers, where for the last, I think it's now eight years, they have been on their honeymoon. And forers, where for the last, I think it's now eight years, they have been on their honeymoon. And for them, shared success is about, can we have as much adventure as possible?

How that links to what you're describing is you can stop measuring when you're aligned around, what are we up to together as a couple? And when it feels like you win together, it takes away sort of that ledger that can occur in the background. There you go. I like that. So do couples need to sit down and establish like, okay, so what does that mean for success for both of us? And what's that goal? Yeah, absolutely. In fact, in the book, we talk about a really simple exercise you can do, which is just thinking about what are your primary values of shared success? So in other words, if we win together, what does that mean to us? Is that financial stability? Is it adventure? We actually have this in our kitchen. We have a little chalkboard and it's got our four values. And we also, this is kind of cheesy, but we named our

family. So it's Kajona, the K from her, N from me, J from our daughter. And it sounds cheesy, but it was actually transformative because instead of thinking what's best for Nate or her thinking what's best for Kaylee, when we have big questions, even business questions, we'll ask, well, what's best for Kajona? Is it best for Kajona if Nate writes this book or whatever it is? And that, again, just like puts us on the same team. And so we don't even have to measure really at that point. I like that. You guys are an NFL team at that point or a basketball team.

Either that or a motivational speaker team. Yeah, there you go. That's awesome. And it is just, I was going to add, if you think about a basketball team, if your teammate makes that final shot as the buzzer's going off and you win the game, you both won the game. You're super excited, right? If it's like an all-star situation where you're both trying to get the best stats, that's the 50-50 struggle, right? Where you're actually jealous of your partner because they just landed the shot and you didn't.

And you also often lose because they're sort of like grabbing the ball back and forth between each other. You bring up a good, that's a really good analogy, actually. When you fight over stuff, you both lose. And a lot of people don't really see that sometimes until they're in a divorce. And I've had friends that have gotten divorced and broken up and they've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting over stuff and they're left with nothing. And they're just like, wow, I lost on that one. We all lost. I mean, both parties lost.

No one can. I mean, I'll sit down with them and go, no, on paper, you guys both lost. You may be separated, but you both lost. I'm looking at how much money you spent on that. And now you're both bitter and angry. And so that's that's really a a great paradigm the team paradigm and sitting down and having these discussions and stuff and balance so let me ask you this with a little bit of devil's advocate there's always i i found i don't

want to tell you guys what what there is because i'm just making up truth at that point but in my experience there is kind of somewhat a dominant person in a relationship. The dominant, the dominant submissive. Am I wrong on that? Or? Well, I think what you're pointing to is something that we definitely encountered, which is that in relationships, often there is an over contributor and an under contributor. And what's interesting in interviewing all these couples is that when the over contributor sort of doing everything in the relationship, they actually aren't winning. And the reason is they are feeling resentful. They're sort of that

tally of, oh my gosh, I do everything. You're a free rider. But what was interesting is that the under contributor reported this similar experience that from one perspective, it was like, Oh my gosh, you're totally winning right now. You get to do less, you get to free ride. Like you get to hang out on the couch and watch TV while, you know, they're over there doing all this chores or whatever. But the feeling state was actually just as bad. Well, I would say one of the things, Chris, it sounded like you were also asking about these power dynamics of dominance and submission.

And the power dynamics, you're right. They're almost always there. We interviewed these couples. And what's interesting is they often track financial resources, right? So the person who's out earning the other person often has this implicit power that the other person doesn't. And that is real, and it has real consequences. And so in that structure part that Kaylee was talking about, a lot of what we're trying to figure out in the book and what we offer in the book are ways to essentially neutralize some of

these power structures and balance that power because when it gets too lopsided all sorts of problems emerge we could talk about what some of those are but yeah yeah that was my is a problem and i didn't i didn't ever count that was my problem but when i would give so much and then i would be told i wasn't giving shit like nothing you're just like whoa yeah the cognitive dissonance you're like and then and then you got to give more and you're just like wait I'm already I'm up on the cross I'm bleeding out and I've slipped my wrists and I mean what more do you fucking want anyway we're not here about my issues well but it's interesting we talked to

one couple where the person who didn't have as much or wasn't bringing in as much money professionally was actually the person who had the biggest as much or wasn't bringing in as much money professionally was actually the person who had the biggest problem because they just felt so guilty every time they took a withdrawal out of a debit card and they felt like they were taking money. And so it was, it was that side of the power dynamic that ultimately became unworkable for them. I think there's another dimension to what you're describing too, which is, are you contributing in the way that your partner receives? Yeah. And so giving and financially supporting and providing for is one dimension, which is amazing.

And if there was something else that really meant something to them, whether it was emotional support or showing up in a different way. I had to give emotional support too. Yeah, I mean, it never ends. There is something around if you're going to contribute, it's really helpful to do so in a way that your partner receives and knowing what that is or knowing their love map is quite helpful. There you go. Their love map. What is that? What is that about? Well, there are a lot of theorists in the marriage space that talk about this, but

one of the most, the classic articulations of this is the five love languages. And it's basically just this idea that we have different kinds of love languages. Like Kaylee, for example, her love language is acts of service. So if I unload the dishwasher, that's like the most amazing act of love. But gifts, which is another primary love language for a lot of people is very low on her list. So if I walk in with flowers and chocolate, and I'm like, Hey, Kaylee, look at what I got you. It turns out I actually should have just unloaded the dishwasher. That would have meant a lot more to her. Kaylee, do you have a single sister? I'm just kidding. I might. She might.

She doesn't want anything to do with me. Trust me. So what are the three other parts of the love language? Yeah. So this actually comes from Gary Chapman. So gifts is one, which Nate talked about, sort of the chocolates and the flowers, acts of service, quality time, which is different from parallel play. This is where you're actually giving your full attention to your partner versus we're both sitting on the couch, you know, doing our Instagram feed. And then a fourth is physical touch. Just for everyone who's listening,

this is not necessarily sex. Sex is a separate category. All love languages can speak that. This is sort of the like, and then I scratched him back or gave a big hug. So we've got gifts, quality time, acts of service. And the last one is words of affirmation. And so this is being able to, with specificity, articulate something that you admire or appreciate about your partner. That's awesome. Let me ask you this because one of the things I've seen like with a lot of couples and I know sometimes they text between each other like I have friends that they text between each other and flirt uh with their text messages because the kids are sitting there and they can't be all weird in front of the

kids and lovey because the kids are like yeah gross mom but I see some couples that are really stuck and their only intimacy seems to be the text messaging like they they can't they can't do face-to-face intimacy or look each other in the eye. Do you see that as a challenge for today's couples? Yeah, it's actually been really interesting that we've seen this also be accentuated because as the pandemic has happened, there's been quarantine that we're really close together pretty much all the time. And so there's a sense of space collapsing. And so while you can sort of sit on the couch and text each other, there's actually not that separation where you get to

miss your partner in the same way that there's something really beneficial about having time apart where you get to be by yourself, kind of clear your mind, and then come back where you're available and present for your partner. What I used to do is hire people to kidnap my partner and then hold them ransom for a week or two because the heart grows fonder when you're away. That's one way to do it, for sure. It's like an escape room, only intimate. I actually used to tell my girlfriends,

I'm like, I'm just going to build like a back garage, like one of those back houses, like the honey houses they used to have in Utah for the the plague wives and i'm just gonna live out there and then i'll just come in when we're doing relationship stuff the rest of time we're just gonna go out there and take my and decompress and that never made him happy it's kind of wonderment when you talk to me why i'm single huh it's a long-distance relationship where the distance is the backyard yeah yeah it's just like why is he in the sleep with the sleeping bag Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, why is he in the sleep, the sleeping bag in the backyard? The neighbor's just wondering, but no, I mean, it is harder for

couples right now with COVID because you're right. There's not that distance and separation and you can't travel and get away from each other. So there's that. So we've got some questions that we want to give to the Clemson take. And for those in the clubhouse room, please forward your questions to my Instagram if you would. This question comes to us from Annie McCaughey. My apologies for not pronouncing that correctly. Can you tell us about the worst couple that you have been able to help with your strategies and did it work? Oh, that's interesting. I don't know if there's some clients of you guys you might not be able to tell us well we we did i mean we talked to some very interesting couples in researching

this book the the one that really stands out to me they met in college and the woman was this very type a achiever type she had financial spreadsheets and all sorts of things, credit cards, things that people who are 22 years old and responsible have. And the husband was this kind of classic frat guy who was really good at playing beer pong, but drove home to his mom's house every weekend and his mom did his laundry for him. Are you talking about me? I don't know. Did we talk? I can't remember. But, but anyway, what was really fascinating about that couple is that was the early pattern. That was how they met and that created this momentum so that when they got married, it was the same pattern. And then you fast forward 20 years and it's still kind of the same thing where you have a situation where the wife out earns the

husband, she has the bigger job, but she does literally everything around the house. And I do think that talking just the simple idea of shifting mindset and maybe bringing more attention to the structure of their life together, hopefully was helpful we actually need to for some of these interviews it'd be really interesting to go back and interview them after reading the book that's maybe book two see if it's stuck yeah or the next time i get a relationship you'll have a you'll have some work done note to self stop having mom do my laundry hey if she's still doing it anyway i'm just screwing around let me ask you about gender roles too as we go out to i think we'll take one or two more questions people have we're

all just make my own generals do people really have to break down gender roles i'm pretty old and i've seen i've gone through everything i remember i i come from the nuclear family age where mom did this and the dad did this do you you really have to sit down and go, look, blow all that stuff up and here's roles? Or is it really just about the 80% giving and doing stuff? Now, roles is a really powerful question. And I think that you named something critical, which is we come into our relationship with kind of a hangover of what's happened before.

For some of us, that's what we witnessed with our before. For some of us, that's what we witnessed with our parents. For others of us, it's just the societal norms. And so what you're naming, we found is true, that it is more likely that the woman is going to take on more a disproportionate share of the household and the childcare responsibilities. Statistically speaking, it is improving that men are contributing more, but women still statistically do more. And so to your point, we come in almost unconsciously. And I would put myself in this category that I came in unconsciously into our relationship that my mom was a stay-at-home mom and she was awesome at what she did, raised three

awesome kids. My brother and sister are phenomenal. But that was her primary responsibility. For me to do what I was doing and do that too really set up a standard that was impossible to keep. And so we sat down with a piece of paper and just wrote out what are all the things that need to happen in our life? Which ones by default, by accident, had each of us taken on? And then how could we shift it so that it felt more equal and more balanced?

Which I want to be really clear, wasn't necessarily fair. This wasn't to make sure like each line item had an equal on the other side. It was to say, which things am I good at? Which things do I like doing? Which things are you good at? Which things do you like doing? Where do I care more? So you kind of pick your favorites maybe a little bit?

Yeah, you pick your favorites. And then there's always outsourcing if you have the financial resources, because sometimes there are things like nobody wants to do. Cleaning the gutters might be a good example for us. We try to outsource that if we can. Now, isn't that why you turn to polygamy or not you, but just anybody? I suppose that's the argument. I mean, that's what, that's what I would do with polygamy. It wouldn't be about the sex. It would be like, Hey,

can you clean the gutters and stuff? Cause the two of us don't want to do it. Two of us aren't really into that. The third wheel. Cause there's the first wife. I come from Utah. This is maybe less complicated to just use like task rabbit, but up to you. There you go. But the thing I like about what you guys have espoused here is, and I said this after my last big relationship that I was engaged in, is the next time I get into a relationship, instead of waiting for all the problems to surface and all those things to stack, and then you're at the point where you're in counseling, you're trying

to make that work, and you got the lawyers talking to each other and stuff. To me, if if i ever get in a relationship again i'm going to sit down with some of these tips that you guys have probably just give her give her the book and read it myself of course but but also to sit down and try and work through these arrangements early on and set uh better not ground rules but but what you guys have done with these these aspects and expectations and try and get off onto that better foot. Because, you know, I've seen too many times in my relationships is how it just builds and builds. And it just becomes like this giant landslide or snowballing effect and all that good stuff. Well, that's definitely true for us. That was our experience that we entered with a certain momentum.

She was the overachiever, over contributor. I was the guy who cleaned his apartment twice a year. If that, and that was the, that was the momentum. What's that? Is that bad? Cleaning your apartment?

Anyway, I'm sorry. Literally there was a trail of dead ants where the exterminator had come and he had vacuumed them up. And I was like, and you wonder why you're sick all the time. So the dead answer bad too? Note to self.

Anyway, I'm sorry, Nate, for interrupting you, but I just had to pull that joke in there. So as we go out, we've got a few people left in the room. If you guys have questions, shoot them as Instagram. Anything we haven't covered that you guys want to put on, did you guys want to cover that maybe touch on in the book as we go out? Well, I would say that there are a couple ideas we haven't really touched on. One of them is about priorities and boundaries. So what we've found in our own life and through these interviews is that

some people are clear on what they want, their shared values, but they're really not that good at prioritizing life and also setting boundaries. So a classic example is we want to prioritize time together. We want to make sure we do date night, but then her best friend calls and all of a sudden there's a dinner party we're going to instead of going to date night. And we get to the end of the year after having made this resolution, we're going to do date night once a week. And we get to the end of the year after having made this resolution, we're going to do date night once a week. And we're just like, what happened? Like, how did that happen? And it turns out like the big problem is for a lot of people,

for everyone, I think it's just hard to say no. And so there are some uncomfortable trade-offs that we found you sometimes have to make to really put these values and priorities into action. And I just, I think that's a good call out because for a lot of people it's tricky, but sometimes it's necessary and really the key. Yeah. The last piece that I would add is if this stays an idea, hey, we should do radical generosity. Hey, we should contribute. Hey, we should appreciate. We should have a shared structure where we create shared success. That's cool. But the real power happens when it becomes a habit.

And so using some of these tools on top of things you do anyway. So as a, for instance, every night before we go to bed, we do an appreciation for each other and going to sleep, having just been appreciated feels so great. It sets the tone for the relationship and now it's become a habit because we go to sleep every night. And so before we do, we practice bringing that in. So it's not sort of blowing everything up or doing something crazy, but finding something that's normal or a ritual and then build in some of these, these tools and tips. That's important too. Cause if you're going to sleep angry, right.

You're just, you're just pissed off. And the next morning you wake up going, I have yet to find a person. I was going to say who sleeps well when they're mad. Yeah. Well, I usually kill people before they go to, I go to bed and then I'm fine. It's well, there you go. Don't ask questions about what's in your basement. bury him in the morning anyway i'm just doing horrible jokes so this is pretty cool this is uh really awesome we could probably talk more about the book ad nauseum but of course we want people to go buy the book so they can read it and find all the good

tips and all that good stuff give us your guys's plugs and i think you guys do some social media videos on youtube i've seen and you guys have kind of a social element vibe out there on some of the different channels and stuff as well, don't you? Yeah, I'd say we're mostly on Instagram, 8080 Marriage. We do a little bit on Facebook. We have a YouTube channel with some videos and whatnot. And we also have an email newsletter that we send out once a week with tips and strategies and all sorts of topics about the intersection of marriage and the craziness of modern life, essentially. I love this because what I'm going to do and one of my friends call me and they start complaining about their

marriages, I'll be like, you need to subscribe to the newsletter. That's right. So give us the dot com so people can find those on the interwebs and where to pick up the book. Yeah, 8080marriage.com is where there's information on how to order the book there. It's also on Amazon and everywhere you can buy books. But that's also where you find out about the newsletter and all the things we're up to. There you go, guys. Check it out and everything else. I've got to go clean up some ants and do my biannual cleanup. Call your mother.

I just found this is bad. Well, yeah, I got gotta go pick up my laundry. So guys check it out. It's been wonderful. Have the Clemson, the 80 80 marriage and new model for happier, strong relationships, Nate and Kaylee Clem. We certainly appreciate you guys having on the show. Thanks for spending some time with us today and enlightening our audience. So fun to be here. Thanks for having us. Thanks so much for having us. This was great. There you go. And thanks to my Clubhouse audience. I think Kaylee's on. If she gets bored, she may come in the room. So we'll stay tuned for that. I'll be in the room talking about her book and talking about our discussion. So if you're not on Clubhouse, join Clubhouse or

hit me up for an invite. But we'll probably be talking about their book in our discussion here for the next half an hour. So stay tuned for that to my audience be going to youtube.com for just chris voss hit that bell notification go to what else goodreads.com for just chris voss facebook.com the chris voss show linkedin the chris voss show and of course the instagram as the kids like to i don't know what the hell is going on with the instagram thanks for tuning in stay safe wear your mask and we'll see you guys next time