The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Book of David by Michael Gordon

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

The Book of David by Michael Gordon Michaelgordonwrites.com https://www.amazon.com/Book-David-Michael-Gordon/dp/1965340490 Caring for a sibling with special needs presents families with a gauntlet of challenges and responsibilities. But while the downsides of sibling caregiving understandably take center stage, few books consider how managing the less-than-perfect among us can also enrich us all-individually, within our families, and across the community at large. This "memoir as self-help" book addresses what goals and principles we should set for ourselves and our special needs siblings. With humor and affection, the author uses his brother's life history to address issues that arise around education, employment, health care, family functioning, and religious observance. Dr. Gordon, a child psychologist, parlays his extensive clinical experience to explore the many trials and triumphs that can arise when one sibling cares for another.About the author Dr. Michael Gordon, a distinguished clinical psychologist based in Syracuse, New York, has dedicated his career to advancing the diagnosis and treatment of psychological conditions, particularly ADHD. He has contributed extensively to the field through his academic research, teaching, publications, and professional practice. He is well-known for his ability to translate complex psychological concepts into practical strategies for patients and their families. His compassionate and evidence-based approach has earned him a reputation as a trusted clinician and a respected voice in clinical psychology.

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Timmy an amazing young man on the show, Michael Jordan, or I'm sorry, Michael the basketball star. No, I'm just kidding. His good friend, Michael Gordon, joins us on the show. He is the author of the latest book to come out January 10th, 2025, called The Book of David. We're going to get into it with him. He's a prolific author.

He's written a lot of books. Dr. Michael Gordon is a distinguished clinical psychologist based in Syracuse, New York. He's dedicated career to advancing the diagnosis and treatment of psychological conditions. Particularly ADHD. That's my favorite one. I love ADHD and OCD. He has contributed extensively to the field through his academic research, teachings, publications,

and professional practice. He's well known for his ability to translate complex psychological concepts into practical strategies for patients and their families. His compassion and evidence-based approach has earned him a reputation as a trusted clinician and respected voicing clinical psychology. Welcome to show, Michael. How are you?

I am fine. Thank you. thank you and thanks for coming give us your dot coms where do you want people to find you on the interwebs well you can go to michael gordon writes dot com is the best place that's where the book is discussed and my other books are there and articles and blogs and things like that uh so give us a 30 000 overview what's inside your book the book of david well i have a brother david who's nine years younger than I, 12 years younger than our oldest brother. And he has intellectual limitations that came on after Roseola after a fever when he was 14 months old. And David has been David since that time, which is both somebody who has limitations in some significant ways,

but also much to value beyond that. And this book is really about caregiving for somebody like a David. And the focus of it is really to point out that certainly there are burdens and challenges and problems to be solved and pain to experience and anxiety to undergo. But there's also another side to it, that there is meaning and value in his life, and things he contributes to my life and everybody else's. And that the typical treatment of disability is just to talk about all the downsides of it. And those downsides are legitimate and don't mean to sugarcoat any of it.

I know that there are a lot of people who are not as charming as my brother is. But there's also opportunities to grow, opportunities to reach out and to practice all kinds of important skills. important skills like empathy and devotion and dedication. Empathy is really important. You know, I had, in my family, we had four children, and the last was born with cerebral palsy and all sorts of conditions. It's a miracle. She lived beyond three months, and she lived into her 40s.

But she was blind, and so I kind of, I'm not sure I was similar experiences. I don't want to paint that, but I kind of, I kind of, I kind of, maybe know what it's like to have a sibling that you have to grow up with that you have to care for, you know, they, they tend to take a lot of attention from the, you know, the parents and need a lot of attention for their stuff because, you know, your self-sufficient is usually a human being or it's somewhat of certain age as a child to a certain degree. But, you know, this person needs extra help and we need empathy for them. We need to care for them. And yeah, it's a big deal and being a caretaker is kind of a challenge too do you talk about that in the book well that's

what the book is about about how to go about thinking about being a caregiver i really wanted to avoid uh turning this into a self-help book uh i really have never thought that self-help books are as helpful as they might be largely because they presume a certain homogeneity that everybody with a sibling who has cerebral palsy or ADHD or intellectual deficits are somehow the same and that the same advice applies to all of them. And it just isn't that way. Families are different. People have different levels of impairment, different resources within the family. They live in different areas. There's so many differences that it's very, I think, unrealistic to say, you should do this and you should do that. And so I try to avoid that and more just tell

David's story and my story with David and also as somebody who's worked with families with special needs individuals, just to tell the story and hope people get something out of it that they might find useful. If I've learned anything over time, particularly being a mental health provider, it's that people really don't want to be told what to do. They might act like they want to be told what to do. They might think that, you know, that there's some excellent. who has the answer, but at the end of the day, if it doesn't fit for them, if it doesn't ring true, if that advice is not tailored to their needs empathically, then go too far. I've tried more with this book, just to tell the story, acknowledging that it's unique

a lot of ways, but also trying to broaden it a bit by talking about medical care issues and job issues and such. Tell me about your experience. What was it like? Now you said he was 12 years older than you, right? No, David is nine years younger. Nine years younger. Okay. So what was that like, experience that in life and coming to grips with it

and kind of settling in on what you needed to play a role in to help him? It worked out in a very sort of organic, natural way. I mean, it wasn't like one day David showed up and he had these issues. He came as a little brother and, you know, I was into caring for him

and enjoyed it and just found it kind of cool thing to do. Yeah, a little bit of age. And when things started to become obvious that he was going to be a bit different and have additional needs, it just was something our family just dealt with. Not always so easily and not without a lot of frustration, but it was just something you needed to do. It was a very kind of natural process where I just saw it as another problem to solve. I was always even as a youngster, and it grew more as I got older, kind of a problem-solving kind of person. For me, it was, all right, what do we do here? How can I teach him to read? And it was a challenge, I guess, come to think of it. And it just struck me as something you just did.

I really kind of think about it in any rational way. If you love somebody, you care for them. And, you know, family's family. Yeah. Kind of, it depends on your family. You're supposed to. Yeah, people go all sorts of different ways. Some people just accept it

and move on and see it as something that is just part of being with somebody and loving somebody and having something in your family. Not everybody deals with it. that way, though, unfortunately. Some people are more feeling burdened and upset and agreed by how events conspired to make it this way. A lot of people are really looking for ways to get out of that responsibility or not deal with it in a way that's productive. And so while I think

for many people, they do what they need to do, some people need a little bit of encouragement. And some of that is just helping them not to be afraid of the circumstance, to let it be known that you just don't fix these things, because that's how people mainly go into these kinds of problems. How do we fix it? Do you find there's a lot of, you mentioned earlier the, I think you said the word fear, or there's a, there's anxiety maybe of how to fix these things. Do you find that's a popular issue? Well, I'm anxious all the time about David. You know, and I'm a trained psychologist, clinical psychologist. I know all the techniques for managing anxiety, and I lose an awful lot of sleep when things don't go well, when he has medical issues,

when there's uncertainty about what the best circumstance for him, for his living, et cetera. I'm anxious all the time about him. I probably way more than I should be, but, you know, you have the responsibility and you don't want to mess up. And you know a lot of people are watching because in David's case, one of the extraordinary things about him is the extent to which his community just adores him and celebrates him. And anytime I'm feeling particularly down on the human condition, I think of the extent to which so many people are so good to him. And that makes me less anxious.

But it also makes me, you know, whenever I go down there, Are people always checking out to say, are you giving David enough money? Is his place really what it should be? People worry about him and they look to me to make it right. And I certainly want to do so. You know, I remember when I had my dog that had cancer and we were hospice carrying her. And I remember she started really collapsing on her back legs. And I thought, and she had anal sat cancer.

So the cancer was on that back part. And so my initial thing was, okay, the cancer spread to her legs. It's time to call it. And I scheduled to put her down. And I went in and, you know, she was still running towards me. She was still running for treats. She was still eating like a pig. And those are signs that dog, you know, isn't done yet.

And I remember going to the doctors and I signed the papers. I paid the money to put her down. And I brought her into the doctor's office. The doctor said, you mind if we look at her real? I know that you want to put her down and you're concerned that this cancer spread to her legs, but you mind if we look at her because we think she might not be ready to go yet. I'm like, by all means. And they went and looked at her and determined that she was having acute arthritis.

And it really wasn't cancer in the legs. I didn't spread that far, I guess. And so they came back in the office. And I remember it was really uncanny of the discussion. It will always kind of haunt me, the discussion that the vet had with me. And he said, he said, hey, so we checked her out. She just has really bad arthritis because she's so old. It's not the cancer.

The cancer is still pretty manageable. You probably still have some runway. But he said to me, he goes, so she's not really ready to be put down if you don't want to. But he goes, I'll understand if you can't handle this, if you can't do this or something that effect if you're if you're not up to you know going the runway of continuing hospice care with her but he said you know we can give her some medicine i think that will fix her and and you can have some more time but it was kind of interesting i said it to me you know are you are you up for this you know i'll understand if you're not ready for this and i thought well this is my dog

my god yeah sure i'm up for it but i then it also occurred to me that some people maybe not. You know, I've talked to people and give them counseling on their dogs and their health and how we extended Abby's life with cancer. And I have people who say, I can't deal with that, Chris. I can't do it.

It's maybe too emotionally, hard for them or too logically. So, yeah, it's interesting, you know, that attitude and of course it's great that your book helps give people a vision of what the map looks like in the care of someone and the empathy of taking care of someone?

Well, there's certain, there's certain principles, you know, that are very simplistic. I always worry when I write these things that they're so obvious, it's not worth putting on paper. But I've come to learn that that's not always the case that Voltaire was right, the common sense is not always that common. And there's certain principles, one of which is safety first. So many of my friends, for example, are so afraid to tell their elderly parents or maybe parents of dementia that they need to move out of their home into an facility. And they tell we can't, they'll be upset. But, you know, what's more important that they'll be upset or that they're safe?

Yeah. I think a lot of times when you frame for people, when I used the word fearful before, I mean, And it just kind of confused and uncertain. If you say, well, one principle is safety first, even if it brings upset, even if it costs some money, even if you have to go against, I don't know, a regulator of some kind or an administrator, safety first. Because, yeah, maybe somebody's going to get upset with you. Maybe David would be upset if I decided that he needed a more restricted environment. but I wouldn't do that unless I was really sure you needed it to be safe. Yeah.

And at the end of the day, I don't think you want to be there sitting there and saying, if God forbid something that happened, oh, well, you know, at least he wasn't upset with me. No, you're going to say to yourself, damn, I should have gotten them into a place that was safer. And then, and like that, there are other principles. For somebody like David, I always think of it as don't expect a blind man to see. You know, so many of the decisions you make are really based on making sure you understand by being empathic and being insightful and being patient enough to kind of evaluate the situation, both in terms of strengths and weaknesses, that you understand what's fair to expect and what's not fair to expect. And too many people go in to fix things and putting people in a situation where they just can't do it. You're asking somebody who can't see to walk in a room full of furniture.

And it doesn't work. It causes frustration for everybody. And people are well-meaning in that. But they set themselves up and they set the person up for a great deal of upset and pain. And so I find that if you're always asking yourself, am I asking him or her to do something, he really can do? great. Or might be able to do with help, great. I don't mean in any way to shortchange somebody's opportunities to make progress and to do things and to learn and to advance. But there's usually a point of diminishing returns. And certainly with somebody with a disability, that point can happen

pretty early. I used to have debates with my parents because they were so intent and kind of wreaking out every last ounce of academic achievement and attainment when it just wasn't working and it was just caused a lot of frustration for everybody. And so I think principles like that are helpful. They're not always easy to figure out, but they kind of focus your attention. Yeah. And, you know, seeing the big picture, seeing what people need, how they need it, and all that stuff is really important. I have a sister as a mess, and she's in a care center, and she has, you know, the onset of

dementia and failing mind, sadly, with all that that goes with MS. And, yeah, it's hard. And, yeah, you try and keep them safe. I remember this was 25 years ago, you know, 25 years ago, we used to have one of those just an awful, I guess. Well, I don't know if they were awful. I shouldn't say that. But we used to have, you know, a care center down the street from our office of,

of folks who were probably dementia patients and other issues. And there was more than once that we found people out in the street that were from the clinic. I don't know, they needed something better to do, but, you know, safety is really important. And, you know, I've dealt with dementia and I just wonder, it's not me yet. Maybe it is. I don't know. Mine's just brain damage. From stupid people on Twitter.

but no mostly you know they get confused when when patients either had dementia or they have limited mental capabilities through whatever you know they get confused and so you know and that makes their condition far worse it just asherbates I think the situation correct people yeah people well let me put it this way I'm from a family David and I are from a family a very advanced high achievers, MDs and PhDs and MBAs and all kinds of people have done very well for themselves. And each one of us will say without hesitation and fully justified that David's the rock star of our family. You know, despite the fact that his, he's in the bottom two, three percent of intellectual ability, despite the fact that he's been a bagger at a grocery store.

store. He is hands down far more beloved and adored and probably sleeps better, seems just happier about life than any of the rest of us. And we've all done well and we're all pretty well adjusted people. Yeah. It gets you to ask yourself, you know, what makes for a good life? Is it a good life of being very bright and capable and all, having lots of money, et cetera? Or is it a life that's filled with goodness, is it a life where you are kind to people and people are kind to you, that you can show others concerned and allow others to be concerned about you? It gets you to wonder how it could be, and I think the answers are that there's a lot more to somebody than A, how bright they are, able they are, and B, how they're not their disability.

I mean, I think it's very important for people to realize that, you know, David is David. He happens to have intellectual deficits, but he's David. You know, he has a lot to offer. He's loving. He's a wonderful employee. He's just a great guy who has that. I mean, just because somebody has a disorder or a deficit doesn't mean that's their deficit. That's them.

They are their deficit. It means that there's somebody who's. got a certain challenge, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those limitations lead to a limited life. That because of X, Y, or Z disorder, that their life doesn't have value and meaning to it, because it does. And that's the lesson to me personally of David. That at the end of the day, you know, when my time's up and I'm lying there in the last hours, I'm not going to wonder whether I should have written one more paper or one more book or done some other thing academically or bought another car, I'm going to wonder whether I had a good life where I was knitted into a

community where I was able to love and experience love. And that's the kind of thing that a David will show you that you have to focus on not just people's deficits. You have to understand the deficits so that you don't put people in a situation where they are expected to do what they can't. But you also have to focus on their strengths and what they have to contribute. And they do. David has a lot to contribute, as I say. And we call that in the trade strength-based assessment and strength-based management. And I don't think that's any different for David or for anybody else. that if you're managing people, if you're in a relationship with your kids, you know, it's good not to focus on what they're not doing all the time and try to focus a little bit

more upon occasion on what they can do and what they do right and what they contribute and what they try to do. So, yeah, I mean, everybody has something to contribute. You know, we're all, when you all need to have empathy, we all need to lift each other up because most of us are, you know, within one event of being. in similar situations than people who struggle. You know, I mean, you can have a car accident and one day and you can be perfectly healthy and fine and mentally there.

You know, I had a friend who fell in his home and woke up in a pool of blooded around his head and then getting a brain injury. And, you know, brain injuries, he's going to suffer from the rest of his life. And it impacts his, even so many ways. And so we're all, you know, one second away from a, Something you can go wrong, a heart attack, stroke, you know, and so we all have to take care of each other, you know, rising tide lifts all boats. We're all on that. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And that's what you learn from engaging with somebody different than you and somebody perhaps with some disabilities or deficits. That's what you learn. You learn that at the end of that day, it's not that you're the smartest person in the room because the next day you say you might not be. You might be not able to do what you can do. It's also the case that 100 years of research has made very clear that what leads to contentment, that what leads to happiness isn't the money and all. It's acts of kindness. Yeah.

I know it sounds very kumbaya-like. and very much like Pablam, but it's just a fact that if you look at surveys of people and ask how happy they are, how content they are, how productive they feel, it has to do the extent to which they are part of a community and the extent to which they are kind to others so that people are kind to them.

It's pretty straightforward. I think nowadays it's forgotten a lot. I think nowadays people are talking about, you know, who has the most power and who's the smartest person and who's the, you know, the best of this and the best of that. And I guess that's just humans being human, but it doesn't go too far. That if you think back, certainly when I think back on those parts of my life, I remember most vividly and warmly, it's not about the accolades. It's not about, you know, the new car. It's about experiences with people who I'm close to or came to be close to. And I think it's easy to forget that in the hub of.

I think there's a reason why, for example, people get involved in faith-based organizations because I think they need things to pull them away from the everyday focus on making it through the next meal, the next day, the next job. And thinking about what really is important to them in terms of what makes them feel best and most comfortable. Yeah, most definitely, most definitely. With David, do you think that your career path was influenced by being David's brother? I have to think so. My career path was first influenced by not doing terribly well in organic chemistry and not following along some of the path. in medicine. But no, I came to realize that my strengths were much more interpersonal in the

interpersonal realm than otherwise in more scientific, traditional scientific kinds of things like working in chemistry. I also always love working with kids. I think, though, because I worked with David from a very, very early time. And I also could see what a difference good care made. good educational made, good medical care made, psychological services. And I more than that, honestly, saw how destructive it can be when people are dealt with, people who have some special needs are dealt with poorly and without empathy. It was so hard, you know, I trained mental health professionals for years. And, you know, the ones who did well, even if they're.

weren't from the best schools or the sheriff are the ones who could establish a rapport, you know, who knew how to engage people and such. And I came to realize that there were an awful lot of people who were in David's schools and all, some who got it and really try to connect with him and help him. But a lot just were playing the game. And you would see the impact that this has on families, on parents, when they just feel they have no options, when they're up against bureaucratic barriers that are keeping their kids from getting the services they need. So, yeah, I saw that, and to answer your question, I'm sure that being David's brother led me down the path that I was, because it was very comfortable with something

I knew, and I thought it was worthwhile. and contributed in some way. Well, it's in a beautiful story. I know you've cited in many things in our, in our discussion about him and your book. What's your final goal that you, lessons maybe or experience or what do you hope people achieve as they walk away from your book and after reading it? You know, we all like to pretend that life follows a script, you know, that you go to school and you meet some. and when you get married and have kids, whatever. And as you've indicated, with your family and your friends and all,

life doesn't follow the script. There's a famous Yiddish expression, man plans and God lasts. You know, we all plan to have things a certain way, but it doesn't tend to work out that way in many instances. And because that, as I mentioned at the beginning, you've got to be prepared to figure out how you would deal with that, what you would bring, how you would approach it. And my hope is that all that people take away with of import here is that these kinds of issues are manageable. If you give yourself a little bit of breathing space and kind to yourself and don't expect to solve things in 20 minutes,

for that might not be solvable in 20 years. I think that I hope that people see that if you go about it with thinking it through systematically, take a deep breath, talk to people, understand what the circumstance is, and plan accordingly that it's manageable, whether it's manageable for David and me and others working with David, whether it's for, you know, your sister or your friend who had the bleed, that the families just have to get past as soon as they can, the trauma of it and the upset of it, and settle down and figure out, okay, what makes sense here. And that doesn't come from being told, you know, call up this doctor or go to this program.

It comes from saying, all right, what are we going to do? How are we going to work this out? If you're within the family, apportioning roles, setting boundaries for those things. keeping communications open and enlist as many people as possible to help along with that. So I think that as long as people realize that it's a manageable circumstance, and if it's not, at least you can try and take it from that point. Well, now in the book, you also talk about his community and how it supports him, and I believe religion is a part of that.

How important is this community? Tell us about that and some of the religious activities and needs that maybe people have in spirituality and special needs. Well, thanks for asking that, because that's the part that I find especially fascinating around David and his community. David, if you know David, you know that he lives to have something to do, to be busy, and to be around people. those two things he wants a schedule you know if you're if you're not as swift as others you know you can't predict as much you can't anticipate as much you just want to know what the deal is at any particular moment what am i doing next you know that's david's what are we doing next what's next gosh and nuts but it's it's how he wants to know what's happening it settles him it calms him yeah and he just loves being busy. And then he does, he doesn't stay home unless he absolutely has to. He loves to be around people. Now, you think about a circumstance that provides an infrastructure for somebody like David, where there are regular scheduled activities around people within a community.

You're talking about religion. You know, you're talking about the, the dated day practice. We happen to be Jewish. David goes to every holiday. He goes every Saturday, every holiday that there is, every morning. He goes and does the early morning, what's called a minion of the prayer meeting. He loves it. He loves every bit of it. Now, does he understand the theology of it? No. I'm not sure I do. But he certainly, if you were to ask him about the tenets of our particular faith, he wouldn't be able to tell you. But he'll tell you exactly when the men's clubs meeting on Sundays at 1 o'clock, he'll be picked up by people, he'll be brought home by people.

And he's just there. He walks in, he leads in some of the service, it gives him a bit of a job. But those religious activities are very calming to him, and they give his life a structure. What I find interesting is the more I thought about it, I got to wonder whether that's not what it does for a lot of us, whether or not we have IQs that are below typical, that leaving aside all the theological aspects of it and principles of it, that it does provide a certain blueprint for how you live your life, day to day,

day to day, and sets up some principles about what's important. But for David, it's about having a life where you have some predictability to what's going on. You're reading the same prayers. You're hearing the same melodies. You're around people who adore you and who love you and who care about you. And so religion for David is just extraordinarily important. He belongs to as many as four different synagogues. Oh, really?

I've played all kinds of dues. for that. He's also been known to go to the Baptist Church for their chicken barbecue, but he finds that pointing direction for him in terms of day-to-day life. As I say, I'm not, I don't know how it is for others, but I have to imagine that it's a stress reducer for a lot of people. Yeah. Community is important and human abilities and thriving. What's that now? Community is really important in our human thriving. Yeah, and you know, you look at the data on children who adjust well or don't adjust well,

one of the number one predictors of a protective factor for somebody adjusting is whether they've lived in a community for more than a few years. In other words, that they feel a part of a community. Interestingly enough, and to me, one of the most remarkable research findings that's been validated and verified several times is along those same lines. That they're known as the Maui Studies. They looked at children who had been through particularly horrendous circumstances, and they tried to identify what predicted who came out from it with resilience and came out with it okay and who didn't. And there was one finding that just stood way beyond everything else. And that has to go with socioeconomic status and everything else.

And that is that the kids who made it through relatively unscathed were those kids who found somebody who cared about them. One person for even a brief period of time who cared about them, who showed them some love and some consideration. and oftentimes that was somebody within their faith community. And so I think there's a lesson there. I think that there's a lesson that speaks to the importance of community, that speaks to the importance of feeling that you deserve to be loved and to love. And I think that religion with all the things that it can lead to that might not be so positive, a lot of people provides that kind of framework that gets them to focus on.

that and to feel that they should love and can be loved yeah everyone should be loved and I mean it's just it's just real important stuff there so uh as we go out give people your final pitch out to pick up the book uh your website dot coms how they can reach out to you and find out more well you can get the book on where you get the books amazon dot com you just look for the book of david by michael gordon uh you can also go to michael gordon rights.com and see information about that book and articles and blogs and such that I've written and get a sense of it. I hope that you read it because I think there's more to just about caregiving of

sibling in there. I think there's some things in there that you might find sort of inspiring towards a more comfortable way of dealing with some of these adversities and some of these challenges. Well, it's been wonderful to have you on. It's been a great reminder to us. Michael of how we need to be empathetic to each other, how we need to care for each other, and you know how we need to remember that it can be us in a moment. You know, I own a mortgage company for a lot of years, so I dealt with people making a lot

of financial decisions. Well, I owned it for 20 years. And so I dealt with people making financial systems, financial adjustments. Sometimes they were putting grandma or grandpa into the home and, you know, we had to do the titling and changes over. So I would witness a lot of that, you know, divorces and things like that. But, you know, sometimes there were people who their house had been gifted to them through certain tiling projects because they had MS or they had some sort of mental or physical disability. And so they need to be guaranteed that they were taken care of.

But then when that house would, then if they would pass, the house would and assets would go to the other family members and different, you know, different titling structures, things. So I got to witness a lot of stuff. And, I mean, disturbingly, there wasn't a lot of sympathy. sometimes in empathy, sometimes there's a lot of greed. Like, well, Grandma's kind of, you know, she's not fully there, but, you know, and I would talk to Graham, and I'd be like, Grandma's fully there. I mean, she, we're all a little slow. I'm 57.

I'm, I'm slowing down a little bit. Sometimes the sparks don't, you know, hit the wires right. So. Just wait. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's one of the things I've learned, if we have a couple more minutes. Yeah. One of the things that was most meaningful to me about being with David,

but also being with a family member who had to mention progressive for a long time. I remember so vividly cooking a meal I like to cook for her and spending all kinds of time. And, of course, you know how this story goes. She would eat it and enjoy it. And then five minutes later, ask when we're going to eat again. and didn't remember it. And that got me thinking a lot.

And like you're talking about the people who are talking about grandma, it got me thinking a lot about, well, what does it mean? If somebody isn't fully composemente, if they're not fully able and focused, does that mean you just ignore them? Does that mean that if they don't have a memory of it, it didn't happen? Or does it mean, in a kind of a Buddhist way? Does it mean that really it's about the moment? You know, it's about the moment that she was eating it.

We were together. We were having our meal together. And at that moment, she felt good and she felt cared for and she felt nourished. Is that enough to justify the work? Well, I think it is. I think people take the easy route out when they say, well, they're not going to remember it anyhow. babies don't remember stuff. We still take care of them, you know. Why? Because you hope that that experience of being developed in some degree of care and nurturance is going to have some

impact. And I think it goes for people like my relative with dementia. It certainly goes for David. I mean, David so appreciates any kindness that you show his way. And he might not always remember all of it. He might not get the subtleties of it, but he appreciates at the moment the joy of being together or whatever we may be doing. And I don't think it hurts for people to keep in mind that we're really about the moment, you know, whether we can live in the moment or should live in the moment, that's a matter of great debate. But it certainly is a way of trying to understand that you can expend energies, you can care about somebody, and even if they don't know it, or don't know it for long, it has value because it gives their life a sense of value and

meaning as well. Most definitely. Most definitely. Well, it's a beautiful message, Michael, and, you know, we all need to be better to each other because, like I say, you know, I sometimes feel like I'm a Superman and I can't miss, you know, and and sometimes I fall down and I'm not perfect and sometimes I need help I need other people to jump in or I need you know sometimes you just need that person to call you and be like hey man you okay over there and we all need that and we're all usually one moment one instance you know

life can change in an instant you can be by lightning hit by a car you know and it can be over fast, too. So, you know, that's the reason we need to carry each other through this life, you know. And it's the reason why, you know, if we're to be, let's say we get hit by the car and don't live through that, what we'll be remembered for likely is those moments of thoughtfulness and kindness and decency more than anything we did in particular, at least by people close to us. you know, they're going to memorialize us, I hope, is good people as opposed to a good, you know, professor or doctor or anybody else. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for coming the show.

We really appreciate it, Michael. I appreciate it, too. This has been a lot of fun and very interesting. Yes, so. And good. And hopefully we help lead a lot of people and teach them and help them be better to as well. so order of the book folks wherever fine books are sold it is entitled the book of david out january 10th 2025 by michael gordon thanks for us for us to do you go to goodreads.com for it says chris

vass lintin dot com for it has chris fosch first one on the ticotcity and all those crazy crazy crazy i must be going crazy anyway guys thanks for tuning and be good to each other stay safe we'll see you guys next time and that should have us out man great show one job in the point