The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Divine Economy: How Religions Compete for Wealth, Power, and People by Paul Seabright

Episode Date: May 26, 2024

The Divine Economy: How Religions Compete for Wealth, Power, and People by Paul Seabright https://amzn.to/3KdDvEt A novel economic interpretation of how religions have become so powerful in the modern world Religion in the twenty-first century is alive and well across the world, despite its apparent decline in North America and parts of Europe. Vigorous competition between and within religious movements has led to their accumulating great power and wealth. Religions in many traditions have honed their competitive strategies over thousands of years. Today, they are big business; like businesses, they must recruit, raise funds, disburse budgets, manage facilities, organize transportation, motivate employees, and get their message out. In The Divine Economy, economist Paul Seabright argues that religious movements are a special kind of business: they are platforms, bringing together communities of members who seek many different things from one another—spiritual fulfilment, friendship and marriage networks, even business opportunities. Their function as platforms, he contends, is what has allowed religions to consolidate and wield power. This power can be used for good, especially when religious movements provide their members with insurance against the shocks of modern life, and a sense of worth in their communities. It can also be used for harm: political leaders often instrumentalize religious movements for authoritarian ends, and religious leaders can exploit the trust of members to inflict sexual, emotional, financial or physical abuse, or to provoke violence against outsiders. Writing in a nonpartisan spirit, Seabright uses insights from economics to show how religion and secular society can work together in a world where some people feel no need for religion, but many continue to respond with enthusiasm to its call.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. There you go. Welcome to the show, ladies and gentlemen.

The air lady sings it. That makes it official. And the show is on the road, as they say. They don't say that. That's not something I made up. Welcome to the big show, my family and friends. Go to Goodreads.com, 4Chest, Chris Voss. LinkedIn.com, 4Chest, Chris Voss.

YouTube.com, 4Chest, Chris Voss. And all those crazy places on the internet. Refer your family, friends, and relatives to the show so they can get in on the goodness the amazing minds brilliance knowledge the the depth of experts that we have on this show and the authors and the booklets they make and the stories they tell and weave whether they're fiction or non-fiction they will change your life i guarantee it and the lawyer said i can't say that but i did anyway he is the author of the newest book that's just come out it's called the divine economy how religions compete for wealth power and people out may 14th 2024 paul seabright joins us on the show and he's an author of a multitude of books.

He teaches economics at the Department of Social and Behavioral Sciences at the Toulouse School of Economics. He's lived in the center of the city of Toulouse in France since 2000. He was a director from 2012 to 2021 in the Institute for the Advanced Study in Toulouse, of which he remains a member. From October 21st to September 23rd, he held a two-year fellowship at All Souls College in Oxford. He did undergraduate and doctorate studies at the University of Oxford. He was a fellow of the All Souls College, then taught at the University of Cambridge, where he was a fellow of the Churchill College. We've heard of that Churchill guy. He was popular, evidently.

Actually, Europe's still there because of him i also he has also held a part-time teaching position at the college of europe in bruges and the ecole ecole polytechnique in paris did i get any of those names right that were foreign that's that's amazing and thank you for that that amazing introduction i mean after everything you've said about great minds and so on, I can't wait to hear what I have to say. We can't wait either. So please get to it, sir. Give us your.com so people can find you on the interwebs. PaulSeabright.com. No gap between the Paul and the Seabright.

There you go. And so give us a 30,000 overview of your new book, The Divine Economy. It's about how religious movements are businesses. Of course, they're not just businesses. But, you know, ordinary businesses are not just businesses either. I mean, you know, you go to your workplace and it's not just your workplace. It's the theater in which you live out your hopes and your dreams and your frustrations and your ambitions and religious movements are that too. There are places that are inspiring and terrifying and heartwarming and

depressing and all of those things, but they also have to earn enough revenues to keep the show on the road. Keep the show on the road. Yeah. And so how they earn those revenues is what the show on the road. Keep the show on the road. Yeah. And so how they earn those revenues is what the book's about. There you go. I think keep the show on the road. I think Christopher Hitchens and I would love that line, being both atheists.

So what motivated you on to write this book? What was the proponent that said, hey, this should really be something I should cover? I've been interested in it for a long time. And about 20 years ago, I wrote a book about social trust, about how we trust strangers. I mean, in a way, a weird thing. We go out in the morning. I mean, I live in the center of a city. I asked somebody I've never seen in my life before to give me a cup of coffee. And instead of beating me on the head with a club, like my prehistoric ancestors would have expected to happen, the guy gives me a cup of coffee. And, you know, he's never seen me before. Why does he do

it? So I wrote a book about how all of that is possible. And a friend of mine called Giuseppe Bertola said to me, you know, Paul, I quite like your book, but your people, they're all very reasonable. They don't have any passion. And in particular, they don't have a gender. They're not male or female. They don't have sex. They don't have any of that. And they also don't believe in anything passionately. They don't have ideology.

They don't have a religion. And so I said, Giuseppe, you're so right. And the next 20 years, I spent working on those two topics. And so in the first 10, I worked on gender and sexuality and how that fits into social trust, you know, how does being male or female or something in between or of, you know, not wanting to say how those things affect social trust. And then the next 10 years, I spent thinking about religion, and I'm not personally religious, but I have a very, I would say sympathetic attitude to people who are.

And I think you can be religious for all sorts of reasons. There's no essence of being religious. It's different strokes for different folks. And I just need to understand how that happens and how so much energy and effort and let's face it, money goes into religious movements. There's a bit of money going on from what I understand a bit of money and in fact for a long time they were governments some were governments and countries whole country stuff so there you go yeah you had quite the thing i'm looking over your i believe you have three books that you have published is

that correct well i have more than three but i have three sole authored ones yeah there we go so the war of sexes how the conflict and cooperation works and so you study the economy economy of those i guess you should really do an update on that book for dating in 2024 and divorce yeah yeah a lot of that would need to be rewritten for 2024 believe me i'll probably come back on your show another time. Please do. I'd love to see that book updated. It's changed a lot in the last 10 years. And then you did The Company of Strangers,

The Natural History of Economic Life. And there you go. So tell us a little bit about your history. People like to get to know the author on our show. You know, they like to, you know, go hang out at your house, maybe try on your clothes, go through your closet, you know you know that sort of thing tell us about how you grew up what shaped you what motivates you what made you want to become an academic start writing etc etc i mean i i i was born in a suburb of london but i spent the first 10 years of my life going around the

world my my father worked for a multinational company making sewing thread and so he would run sewing thread factories in different countries including in South America in India and in various other countries and so I kind of followed him around and so I kind of early on got this idea that you know the world is an interesting and very varied place and that as a kid especially a kid under 10 years old, you don't get to see very much of that. So I really, really wanted to be able to travel on my own. And that was one of the things that I most wanted to do when I was young.

I mean, I had all of the same things that a teenager wants to do when they become adult. But I also had this very, very strong wish to travel. And so, you know, if you read the book, a lot of the book is based around little stories about what happened to me when I traveled. And so most of the chapters start with a story, and it's usually a story which has religion in there somewhere,

not because I was particularly religious. I mean, I was a little bit at some points, but mostly I wasn't. But on the other hand, religion just kept happening to me. You know, I would run into it might be a temple here, it might be a cult there, it might be a church there, whatever, might be a mosque there. And I would just see this stuff, and I would want to know why is it happening? Why is this going on? And I just love the variety of it. There's no one answer. You know, religious people are not all the same. I mean, they could be crusaders in the Middle Ages,

they could be Sufi mystics, they could be Pentecostal enthusiasts, they could be, they could be jihadis, they could be pacifists, they could be all sorts of things. So religion isn't just one thing. It's a whole bunch of stuff and i got really excited by that i just wanted to know why is it all happening and in particular where are the resources coming from because you know the catholic church by the early middle ages owned a third of the agricultural land in western europe i mean where did they get all that stuff and it's not just the catholics i mean the buddhist temples across asia people just gave them land yeah mosques across the middle east people just gave them land and they became really big players they became really big

economic players and they became really big political players and that i just wanted to understand all of that there you go so you're not throwing any shade at religion you're not pulling a christopher hitchens or sam harris you're just you're just talking about how they compete for wealth power and people and you talk about how basically they you know they have to recruit they have to raise funds disperse budgets manage facilities organize transportation transportation, motivate employees, and get their message out, basically, you know, like IBM or Apple, right? That's it. That's right. I mean, I don't do theology. If somebody says, you know, I want you to tell me which is the authentic version of Christianity, I say, I don't have

a horse in that race. I'm not deciding who's authentic. I'm just telling you how they deal with each other. And so if somebody says, you know, that movement is very violent and terrible, and you should denounce them. I'm not interested in denouncing anybody. I want to know, why do some rivalries turn into violent conflicts? Why are some of them settled peacefully? But again, I don't have a horse in the race, and I just want to see why things happen the way they do. There you go. Why they happen and what they're about. You know, the interesting thing about the economy of religion, and I remember me and my business partner for years, we started a lot of companies.

And we used to sit around and look at you know religion being very prevalent in the state of utah that we were at and realizing that boy that that tax-free you know that tax-free income sure is sweet that religions get to take in and then the other the other thing when you realize, and I'm not being negative if somebody interprets that way towards religion, but the great thing about religion is it doesn't have an inventory. So because it sells the concept of an idea of, let's just call it invisible real estate after or some sort of heavenly real estate after life and last time i checked there's there's not really a building cost to it like you would have to build a neighborhood but i don't know you know i guess we'll figure out how that all works when we get there i suppose so if you believe in that but there's no inventory cost so if i want to sell

you a widget or an iphone or whatever i have to i have to design that from whole cloth or copy it from a competitor and make some innovative improvements so they don't sue me. And then I have to manufacture it. And so then I have to go to some place in China and have it built. And then I have to bring it to market. I have to buy advertising for it, which I imagine religions do too. But I also have to keep an inventory of it. Like there's a widget process.

And there's not really that transfer of widget in a physical form in a religion where you put a dollar in the kitty. I don't want to do Steely Dan on that one. You put a dollar in the basket that gets passed around and there's some sort of visible transfer of ordainment that I'm guaranteed a cool ass luxury home with a nice view in heaven. And so that's kind of one of the interesting things. We've always joked about it because it's like, yeah, you don't have an inventory, you don't have a production costs.

You, you sell ideas basically, I guess. Yes. But the big thing you're leaving out of that list is the biggest assets of any religious movement or its people or its members. And I think that's the really big insight that religious movements have been able to use that the members are not the passive customers.

They're the active assets of the movement. And when you are developing and creating, and let's face it, selling a religious movement, what you're doing is selling the people who make it up. And that's not just the leaders or, you know, the people who sing in the choir and the people and the bishops and the,

the priests and whatever, you're selling all of those active members. And I think it's one of the biggest psychological insights that, if you like, religious management science has developed. It's that people want to contribute. You know, we think in a secular world that, you know, satisfaction is about what you get. It's about what you consume. It's about what you receive. But what I think religious leaders going back right to the dawn of history, I mean, you can see this in the Apostle Paul. He says it's more blessed to give than to receive. And what he's doing is he's not saying, look, you selfish people, it's your duty to give.

What he's saying is something much more subtle and much more profound than that. He's saying you are more truly yourselves when you give than when you passively receive. You become a more whole person when you give to others. And I think that a lot of secular businesses have forgotten that. They want to say, yes, you know, you come and shop at our shop, or you join our online platform, and these are all the things you get. Okay. The great thing that religious movements have understood is they also say, these are the things you can give. And you know, there's a lot of, I have colleagues who work in the Bolivian Amazon with people who are forager horticulturalists and who live in a very, very simple life.

And if you want to predict what is the thing that is most likely to make somebody in those communities depressed, it's when they can't work because they can't give to others. It's not when they can't consume and they're too poor to eat or whatever. It's when they can't give to the rest of their community. That makes them really depressed. And I think that what the religious movements have understood is that giving is something that makes people feel whole and it makes them feel real and it makes them feel important. You made me really think differently about that then.

So basically, you know, when i go into a church instead of a bunch of widgets which are you know you can call iphones or ipads or something there's the people there so they're really kind of more the product sounds like we're more like facebook you know where you are the product on facebook right yeah and that's why in the book i say so facebook's a religion don't give him any ideas he's gonna want tax-free status no but that's why in the book I say… So Facebook's a religion. Don't give him any ideas he's going to want tax-free status. No, but the book says these movements are not just any kind of business. They're specifically platforms. And what is a platform?

A platform is the kind of business that offers you its members, its users as its assets. Boy, this sounds like Facebook more and more. Yeah. It's awful because people want to use it. Now, you know, Facebook has been rightly criticized for lots of things, but it's been criticized because it won the trust of people by giving them what they wanted. And that's the same of these religious movements.

They give people what they want, so they acquire huge power and legitimacy, and sometimes they abuse that, and they're rightly criticized for that. But you should criticize them because they got that legitimacy in some sneaky, underhand way. No, they got it by giving people what they want. Yeah. And you know, it's funny. Religions are hard to leave like Facebook is hard to leave Because, you know, in some religions, like places like Utah

Or I imagine Italy at one time, I don't know if it still is that way At Vatican City, you know, it might be a little hard to join a different church there I've never been there, but, you know, sometimes it's hard to leave Especially when you have your intertwined thing I remember when Google Plus started and some other competing Facebook killers They called them at the time Social media platforms thing i remember when google plus started and some other competing facebook killers they called them at the time social media platforms and a lot of a lot of people said you know i'd like to go that new thing it seems kind of shiny and new but all my friends and family are in facebook

and i've seen that same thing in religion where people are just like hey it's really comfortable here um and all my friends and family are here so yeah i'll just sit here you know i don't need to do that other thing you know i remember how hard it was for me to leave uh the utah cult when i was in when i was a teenager it was really hard because you had family and then you had community that around you was was all in lockstep and so you were just like this i don't know satanist kid running around like christopher hitchens you know they're just going heretic and chasing me with with burning torches and shit anyway i'm just being funny folks but i'm not actually because it wasn't so this is interesting how this works but you made

me really think about how you know religions are the product and they're also the the a part of the advertisement right like with the mormons they send out young men for two years of their you know young lives to go knock on doors on saturday morning when you're hung over and try and get you converted yeah Yeah, no, that's right. And their people are their publicity. I mean, the Jehovah's Witnesses have made a really big thing of the fact that, you know, you may go out in the street and use, I mean, there are lots of them here in Toulouse. They're very, very active in France.

And, you know, I go out and I pass them. And the first time you think, you know, they're standing there very patiently. And what are they doing? They don't seem to be talking to anybody. And then you go past them. And the next day, they're still there. And the next day, they're still there. And after a while, doing? They don't seem to be talking to anybody. And then you go past them and the next day they're still there and the next day they're still there and after a while you start to think, I don't know, these people

regardless of whether the message they've got is a message I can believe, I have to admire their grit. I have to admire their... Maybe there's something to it. You might or might not think that but you have to admire their character.

And so their character is in some sense, at least as far as that willingness to stick there, willingness to follow an objective, that's a big part of the attraction. Because so many of us, we're in the social media world, we're being solicited every time by these new messages, we become these kind of junkies for the short-term fix we want you know we want a like on our post we want a message from our friends or our family we want to feel loved we want to feel wanted and so we twist and turn and we jump and we and we we we go after the source of the instant

thing and yet you go out on the street and here are these people and they're sitting there. They're not getting the instant hit from having lots and lots of people come up and tell them they're wonderful. They're just sitting there waiting patiently because they have a plan. And I think that fact is itself very attractive to a lot of people. There you go. Or you've got the moonies coming up to you in the airports,

you know, giving you flowers and crap and stuff. I have this vision in my head of what you're talking about and then the scene from Airplane where he's fighting all the religious people coming up to him in the airport. I think we've gotten that particular part of the movie. Anyway, so what you'll see is i'm kind of i'm trying to say that there you know religious movements are really active and you guys in the united states it's become a big thing that religion's declining and you know more and more atheists and fewer and fewer

and that's true and there's a reason for that in the u.s but if you look in the rest of the world that's not true in the rest of the world basically you know there's some there's some movements are rising some are falling some are being displaced some are some are increasing but basically in the world as a whole there is no tendency for religion to decline so anybody who thinks by just looking at you know 15 years worth of surveys in the United States, well, religion's on its way out. We don't have to worry about that anymore. That's wrong. You're going to be very, very surprised. Religion is here to stay, and it's very active in the world as a whole.

Yeah, go on. America is the only place that's declining. That's very interesting. No, it's not the only place that's declining, but it's not typical of the world. Let me tell you some other places it's declining. It's declining in Ireland. Okay? Now, in Ireland, there's a whole story about that because in Ireland, for a long time, the population was very religious,

and the Catholic Church had a very stifling monopoly on national life. And the government and the Catholic Church went hand in hand. They did all sorts of stuff. It's not just that they had an index of banned books until very recently. You know, the publications of Planned Parenthood were classified as obscene until the 1970s. The Archbishop of Dublin could call up the government at any point if he saw a poster for a play on in Dublin and get the government to ban it. And, you know, the government and the Catholic Church were hand in glove in ways that the population tolerated, and for a whole bunch of reasons,

and not to mention, of course, abortion and contraception being absolutely no-no. And what happened eventually was that that coalition of political and religious forces lost its credibility. And because of that, since then, religiosity, the importance of religion in people's lives has been on the decline in Ireland. Since then, it'll bottom out, but it's been on the decline. Spain, for similar reasons, because the Catholic Church in Spain essentially shored up the Franco regime, gave it all its legitimacy. So when eventually the

regime fell, people said, no, the Catholic Church, it doesn't have any legitimacy anymore, because they supported the dictators. And so the Catholic Church's legitimacy fell. People now in Spain, they're still quite culturally Catholicolic but they say we don't want the catholic church telling us what to do with our lives anymore and so you can tell the same is true in chile the same is true in iran you know just to show it's not just a christian thing iran's an islamic country where the whole islamic religion has been instrumentalized by a very conservative very authoritarian bunch of old men who want to stay in power and who are instrumentalizing the religion to try and do that. And more and more,

the Iranian people are saying, look, we don't want that. We believe in God. We personally think religion is important. Mostly, not everybody does. But we just don't want the government using religion as a stick to beat us with. And so everywhere that's happened in the world, religion's declining. And I leave you to ponder the analogy with the US. But what I can tell you is that lots of other countries' rights are increasing. So Poland, okay? Poland, since the end of the communist regime, saw religion take off. And why?

That was because instead of shoring up the authoritarian regime, the Catholic Church in Poland stood up for the little guy against the oppression of the communist regime. And it didn't matter if the little guy was very Catholic or not very Catholic. Basically, the Catholic Church in Poland was very honorably and very bravely supporting the little guy against the oppressors. And so when, you know, the regime fell, who didn't want to be a Catholic? Lots of people said, yeah, I know the Catholic Church was there for us. Now we're going to be there for them. Now that's changed a bit in recent years. And, you know, the recent government, the one that lost the elections, was also trying to instrumentalize the Catholic Church. And so the dynamic of that changed. But basically, you saw from 1990, when the

Polish communist government fell, till 2015 or so, you saw a huge increase in religiosity in Poland, because people said, we trust the Catholic Church not to be partisan, we trust them to be there for us whoever we are. And I think that's just basically the message across the world. Where the political parties try to exploit the religion for their partisan ends, the people end up being disillusioned. If the political party and the religious authorities stay in a reasonably non-partisan relationship, then, you know, religion's very vibrant. It continues to attract a lot of people. There you go. I mean, it's kind of interesting, the slant behind it and the bent and how it works.

And in the book, I probably should have pointed this out early on, you cover pretty much all the major religions, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Judaism to christianity etc etc yeah i mean it's not an encyclopedia reassure your readers it's a reasonably fun read based on stories and vignettes from across the world's religions but you know there isn't like you know 500 pages on judaism and 700 pages on christianity it's a book which takes themes and talks about religion as a business and just gives you lots of examples from all over the place. Now, in the byline here, it talks about on Amazon that there are times where it can be used for harm, for, you know, authoritarian ends, exploiting the trust of members, sexual, emotional, financial, physical abuse, or violence against others. We saw that. There's plenty of examples through history.

So, do you shine a little bit of light on how not only can it benefit, but there can be some bad sides? Absolutely, yeah. And there's a whole chapter that's principally about sexual abuse in religious organizations. And what interests me there is in many other churches, have sort of said, oh, this is terrible. There are bad people in there, and the bad people are doing bad things. Now, I don't want to dissent from that, but that's not the line I'm taking. I'm not interested in the fact that it's bad people doing bad things. I'm interested in the fact that some organizations make the bad things easier to happen, more likely to happen. And so, I want to think about how would you design an organization so that bad stuff is less likely to happen? And to give you an example,

take the Catholic Church. Why are we hearing so much about abuse in the Catholic Church in the last few years? Well, first thing to remember is lots of people think the Catholic Church is this incredibly hierarchical, vertical, authoritarian organization. That's not true. The Catholic Church has 1.3 billion members, and it only has four levels of authority. It has the individual believer, it has the priest, it has the bishop, it has the pope. Now, it has lots of other layers of sort of status. It has, you know, cardinals, and it has deacons and all but i mean cardinals are just advisors to the pope and deacons are just advisors the priest in terms of who's

responsible to who who's the line manager if you want in the business term it's the the members the priests the bishops the pope now if you've got the flattest organization pretty much in the known world that has the second largest number of members after Facebook, what's going to happen? There's no way the Pope can keep an eye on what every priest in the Catholic Church is getting up to. I mean, no way. He just doesn't have the bandwidth. And so, right from the start, the Catholic Church has had this contrast between its apparently very inflexible dogma and the fact that in real life, basically, you know, they go with the flow and there's different strokes for different folks. And what happens in Latin America is different from what

happens in Europe. And what happens in the Franciscans is different from what happens in the Christian brothers. And, you know, there's lots of lip service to doctrinal orthodoxy. But in practice, historically, the Catholic Church has been the touchy-feelyest, most relaxed, most live-and-let-live kind of organization pretty much in history for that size. Now, what does that mean? that Pope Francis, you know, turned a blind eye to what some priests were doing or what some bishops were doing. Of course he did, because as Pope, you basically have to trust what's going on. You can't be overseeing everything that's going on. And Francis's predecessor turned a blind eye to lots of stuff, and his predecessor and his predecessor. Every single Pope has turned a blind eye to stuff. We only know about it now,

basically, thanks to social media. But that's always how it functioned. And you cannot run a church that large with such a flat hierarchy any other way. So if you're going to try and think about what you do to ensure there's less sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, it's not enough just to say, oh, we'll get rid of the Pope and have another Pope. You've got to think about that structure and say, that is a structure in which sexual abuse is almost guaranteed to happen and not to be disciplined. There you go.

There you go. You know, there's lots of interesting abuse that takes place. I mean, the Mormon Church got into problems with that. Absolutely. Because their bishops weren't reporting it to authorities, even though they were legally required to. I think throughout history, there's been all sorts of different things. So it's an interesting expose that's not necessarily designed to bash religion or call it out or, you know, you're certainly not pulling a Christopher Hitchens or a Sam Harris, but you're basically going, hey, this is kind of interesting how these work. And they have similar things to a company

and technically operate like a business. I am, for personal, I'm all for them because they operate like a business person. I'm all for them losing their tax-free status, but that's just my opinion, and you can take it or leave it, I suppose. Any final thoughts as we go out on what people should look for in the book, reasons why they should pick it up?

Final pitch out as we go out. First thing to say is that about tax-free status, you may or may not think that they should lose tax-free status, but they should certainly lose the right which they have in the U.S., which is not to report any information about their activities. That is really something that they – I mean, if you're a charity, if you're a normal non-religious charity, you can be tax-free, but you have to publish accounts. Churches don't, and that's a very strange anomaly. And so I do say that that's a very strong message from the book. But for the rest, I just hope that the book can be read by religious people, by non-religious people, by people who love business, by people who hate business, by people who just think business is interesting. The only person who won't like this book is somebody who thinks business is intrinsically

boring. Sorry, if you think intrinsic, if you cannot be persuaded that business is interesting, this isn't the book for you. But if you can, I think there's a lot in it for you, whether you love religion, whether you hate religion, whether you're indifferent to religion. And I'd love to hear from any of you who have been inspired by it in any way. And that might convert you to like the business sort of aspects of things if you don't like it. So there you go. You might learn something new about how kind of the world works really when it comes down to it, right?

There you go. It was wonderful to have you on, Paul. Please come back for your future books. I'd love to see the revisiting of the relationship one and maybe dating in there. I know divorces are crazy right now. Thank you, Chris. There's certainly an economy there as well. Do we get your dot coms as we go out?

PaulSeabright.com. There you go. Thank you very much, Paul, for being on the show. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Chris. It was a pleasure to be with you. There you go. Thank you very much, Paul, for being on the show. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Chris. It was a pleasure to be with you. There you go. Thanks to our audience for tuning in.

Go to Goodreads.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, Chris Foss 1, the TikTokity, all those crazy places on the internet. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time. And I should have a sound.