The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Envoy: Mastering the Art of Diplomacy with Trump and the World by Gordon Sondland

Episode Date: November 1, 2022

The Envoy: Mastering the Art of Diplomacy with Trump and the World by Gordon Sondland Grab his book https://amzn.to/3FB05pi This is a behind-the-scenes look at Trump, his cabinet, and an international diplomacy you’ve never seen before—written by someone with no scores to settle, no hidden agenda, no check to cash, and no fucks to give. If you’ve heard of Gordon Sondland, it’s likely for one of the following two reasons: one, that he served as the US ambassador to the European Union as a political appointee of President Trump; or two, that he appeared as a pivotal witness in Trump’s impeachment trial. Yes, Sondland is the “quid pro quo” guy. But as it turns out, he has plenty to say that’s far more memorable. People still stop Sondland at the grocery store or in the airport—Republicans and Democrats alike—and offer him high-fives. Business associates, strangers, and even close friends still ask him: “How did you do that?” What they’re really asking is: How did he survive Trump? How did he handle being grilled by the Senate intelligence committee? How did he come out of the situation intact, able to move on? These are just a few of the questions Sondland wants to answer in The Envoy—a surprising and endlessly amusing account of inflated egos, botched phone calls, bad behavior, and international jujitsu.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, the Chris Voss Show. Hey, welcome to the show, folks. We certainly appreciate you guys tuning in. Thanks for being here once again. As always, you know, refer to the show to your family,

friends, and relatives, YouTube, goodreads.com, Fortunes, Chris Voss, LinkedIn, all that stuff that we do over there. Today, we have an amazing author and gentleman on the show. He is the former U.S. ambassador for the EU, and he's going to be talking on the show about his amazing new books. We've had an interesting lot of politics on the show lately. We had the Massachusetts governor on earlier this month. He is the author of the newest book, The Envoy, Mastering the Art of Diplomacy with Trump and the World. Came out October 25th, 2022. Former Ambassador Gordon Sunland is on the show with us today. He's going to be talking about his amazing book, his interesting experiences. You may remember him from the Trump impeachment hearings.

He is the founder and CEO of Providence Hotels, which currently owns and operates 19 full-service boutique lifestyle hotels that have received industry awards and critical acclaim from national and international publications. In 2018, President Trump asked Mr. Sondland to serve as the 20th U.S. Ambassador to the European Union as one of the highest-ranking U.S. officials in Europe. His portfolio included trade, energy, national security, defense, agriculture, and several other files. Over the last 30 years, him and the Catherine J. Durant Foundation have given millions of dollars to causes including childhood education, hunger programs, the arts, and medical research. The foundation recently created the Sondland and Durant Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship at Duke University. Welcome to the show, Ambassador Sondland. How are you?

Hi, Chris. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for coming on. It's wonderful to have you as well. Give us your plugs, your dot coms, wherever you want people to find you on the interwebs to get to know you better. Well, GordonSondland.com and the book is called The Envoy. It's available at Amazon and all other places where you buy books. There you go. And what motivated you want to write this book? Well, at first, I just wanted to get it down on paper. I had a lot of stuff committed to memory that I didn't want to forget. And I was just going to self-publish a book for friends and family. But then as I went through the process, I realized that I had a lot more to say. I had

some thoughts I wanted to share with others, and I thought it would be helpful to do that. So I found a real agent, a real publisher, Simon & Schuster, and here we go. First time I've ever done it. There you go. So give us an overview of the book, if you would, kind of a bird's eye, 10,000 feet.

Well, some refer to it as a bitchy beach read, but I think it's a little deeper than that. It's easy to read. I think there's some funny anecdotes in it. There are also some serious thoughts about how to deal with Europe, with China, with Russia and so on, based on my experience at the EU. It talks about the good and the bad of Donald Trump because he's a very complicated person, as you know. And whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, I think you'll enjoy it. I'm not a pro-Trumper. I'm not a never-Trumper. In my testimony to the committee, I wasn't there to help or hurt the president. I was simply there to tell the truth, get out of there and go back to work, which is what I was trying to do. You know, it was interesting. And I just checked the bitchy beach read. You are number one on Amazon under that category. So I love that. I've got to remember that. In fact, maybe we should apply to Amazon. I think you'd apply for categories, but maybe that should be the,

that should be the new thing. Yeah. Well, by saying that I didn't, I didn't want people to think they were getting a five or 600 page textbook on the EU. That's not what this is at all. Yeah. And I mean, it was pretty explosive. You were kind of almost, I don't know, what I call you the John Dean of the impeachment hearings, where you kind of explosive quid pro quo quote. Was that a comparison maybe? Well, I think the media liked to make a lot of the quid pro quo. That was, I told my daughter the other day, I just had a quid pro quo this afternoon. I went into a restaurant that gave me food and I gave them my American Express card. That was my quid pro quo. I mean, we do that all day long in life. You know, you're setting a whole new

standard for me. Every time I go into Starbucks, I'm going to be scarred by that. Exactly. I'll have a grande with a quid pro quo. Is there a quid pro quo with my girlfriend or wife? Is that the same thing? Absolutely. There you go. Well, hook of the life. You know, I do have to say what was really interesting about your testimony, and it came across when you were up there, because I remember watching you, and I remember thinking, is he conflicted, or is he just trying to tell the truth or does he you know he doesn't seem to be playing a side you seem to be very pragmatic in in your description of this you're writing about it and it came across in the way you were you were doing your testimony where you where you very seem to be in the truth. How important is the truth to you in that pragmatism?

Well, first of all, the truth needs to be important to anyone who ever has to testify in court or before a congressional committee under oath. And remember, I was under oath. This was not my political observations of what was going on. The committee was trying to play gotcha with all the witnesses. You know, with 20-20 hindsight, I think the whole thing was a big red herring at the end of the day. I think if their interest was really in trying to find facts, they could have run the entire process in a far more equitable and democratic fashion, which they did not do.

They already had their answer. They were just looking for people to fill in the pieces of the puzzle. I didn't want to get into any of that. What I wanted to do was respond to very, very specific questions. If I didn't remember, I would say I didn't remember. In a couple of cases, initially, I didn't remember because it's sort of like I had umpteen conversations with a lot of people every single day of the job. It was like a whirlwind. But when another witness would testify subsequent and would say, you know, Ambassador Sondland was in this room sitting on the blue sofa and we were both looking at this guy and he said X, Y and Z.

I said, you know, now I remember and I know exactly what he's talking about. And he's right. I did say that. There was an occasion where I had to amend my testimony where everyone, you know, now I remember. I know exactly what he's talking about. He's right. I did say that. There was an occasion where I had to amend my testimony where everyone, you know, the media lit up about it. And it was a very, very innocuous thing. At the end of the day, this whole quid pro quo is something very simple. President Trump, through his duly appointed representative, which is a whole other story,

Rudy Giuliani, had asked for one simple thing initially, which was, President Zelensky, you campaigned on ending corruption in Ukraine. There were a lot of investigations going on before you took office that were shut down by your predecessor. I'd like you to restart those investigations. And those investigations were not about any specific person or company. They were broad based corruption investigations. So he said, President Zelensky, I'd like you to restart those investigations and you announce publicly that you're going to do what you actually campaigned on. Then I will invite you to Washington and you can come

and have a meeting with me in the Oval Office. That was it. There was nothing more. And then, of course, as time went on, that ask started to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And it had to do with Burisma and with Hunter Biden and with the military aid and so on and so forth, which we all now know in 2020 hindsight. But at the time, I certainly didn't know that because no one told me. Yeah. It's interesting. And you mentioned that you felt like a lot of other people maybe had agendas that were witnessing on the show. We've had Fiona Hill on the show, and I think we've tried to get a few.

Peter Stark's been on, but that was for a different. Do you feel like you told the truth? You obeyed your conscience? How important is the truth to you ased your conscience? How important is the truth to you as a business person, as a human being? Well, I mean, the truth is the truth. It wasn't my truth or your truth. I mean, when someone said, did so-and-so know that you were doing X, Y, and Z, and I produce an email from that person saying, understand, you're going to do X, Y, and Z. I agree.

Great job. That's the truth that person knew about. I mean, it's pretty hard to deny. In Fiona Hill's case and in a few of the other witnesses' case, and by the way, I have nothing but regard for Fiona Hill's ability as a expert in her field. She's a very, very smart woman, but she clearly had an agenda. She was not happy with the president. He didn't want to be there. And then her testimony, I think, served to undermine a lot of what the administration was doing.

Certainly, she was wrong about me. And I said that publicly. What's it like to go through that experience as a human being? I mean, I've heard they freeze the room out. It's very cold. You know, you're obviously hot. It felt pretty hot to me. That's probably true. I got the spotlight on you. What's it like to go through that experience? I mean, you experience something most human beings aren't going to do, and you're in a moment of history that will be remembered forever. Well, it's pretty surreal. And at some point, you just have to sort of like, you know, get into the groove, answer the questions, have a sense of humor. I mean, we weren't curing cancer here. We weren't, you know, talking about nuclear war. We were talking about a phone call that the president made that some would characterize as awful, despicable, illegal, and others would characterize as perfect. So there you go.

There you go. So would you call the book a bit of a memoir? I think you talk about growing up in your childhood and how you're raised. Well, I was a college dropout. My parents were Holocaust survivors. I started, you know, I went to school for a couple of years to a really great school, University of Washington, which today I could never get into if I tried. Maybe the cafeteria, but certainly not, you know, as a matriculated student. But, you know, it's sort of an anything is possible in America story. It's got specific anecdotes about President Trump, which I think people will find, sometimes they'll find revolting, sometimes they'll find hysterical. But I, again, tried to tell the truth. I tried not to embellish. I tried to, you know, relate what actually happened. So I think people between my

life story, my background, my time in Brussels and in Washington, I think they'll enjoy the envoy. There you go. i like how you try and play it down the middle or you play it down the middle i try might be the wrong word how you how you play down the middle i've i've seen you be complimentary to joe biden and some of the things he's trying to do you know you you try and tell the truth and i think that's important i think there's one. public. And there are many policy matters on which I have very, very conservative views when it comes to small government, defense, lower taxes, et cetera, et cetera. In terms of playing it down the middle, I've always found when you go to a restaurant and you bitch about the food, you're

far more effective if you can compliment the restaurant on the things they did well, because then your bitching actually has more credibility. I am not happy with the Biden policies at all, nor am I happy with President Biden's leadership. I think it's been abysmal. But when he and his team do something correct, I think it's my job to point it out that he's on the right track here, but he's on the wrong track everywhere else. It's interesting how that whole plays out, but I like how, how you can see both sides of the thing. And that was one of the questions I had for you. It seems like, you know, you have a lot of experience in business. You've been a business leader most of your life, and it seems like your pragmatism to Donald Trump and his complexity, let's put it that way, you know, because,

you know, he has good, bad traits. And I believe every leader does in my experience of leadership, things I wrote about in my book about leadership. I as a leader, you know, there's a lot of things I did bad. There's a lot of things that are good. There's a lot of things I had to learn from. But it seems like a lot of your experience in leading up to being a leader helped you kind of have a perspective on Donald Trump that was kind of interesting and unique. Well, in my business, as in most businesses, you deal with people every day that would not necessarily be your best friends. You wouldn't necessarily want to get a one month's vacation together with them. But you take them as a package and you look at them, the good, the bad and and otherwise. And you say, on balance, is this someone with whom I can deal or is it someone with whom I can't deal? It's very binary at the end of the day, because, you know, people used to pick Donald Trump apart and say, well, I really like him. I like his policies, but I wish he wouldn't tweet or I wish he wouldn't say those things about this or that. And you could say that about any

human being. But at the end of the day, the question is not what would you wish that he would or wouldn't do? The question is, are you willing to accept him as a package, the good, the bad and the ugly or not? And I was willing to do so, Chris, until January 6th. That's when the red line occurred. Yeah. When it not peacefully turn over the keys to Joe Biden, who unfortunately legitimately won the election. I have no for or with with the legitimacy of his presidency. I just wish he had.

There you go. So I think a lot of people have this question going on now. You were the ambassador to the EU. You were aware of what was going on with the situation with the Ukraine. Was there a way we could have prevented any of this Russian war or all the horrors that were going on now? The grain has been suspended again. So who knows what that's going to do to food prices? We're dealing with the outages of diesel on the East Coast. Could any of this have been prevented? Was there anything we could have done better? Well, my crystal ball isn't perfect, but I can say that my working knowledge of Vladimir Putin and the dealings I had in Russia and issues is

that he's a big receptor of signals. And all of the signals that the Biden administration sent since they took office were signals of conciliation, of weakness, of permissiveness. They were not signals of strength, of don't F with us because if you do, you're going to get hit back times 10. Those signals were not sent by the Biden administration. And as a result, I think that Putin, in whose DNA it is to expand back to the old Soviet empire, he was looking for an opening. And I think he got it. Yeah. Zelensky sure seems to be almost a Churchill-type figure that he's emerged as with the war. What's your thoughts on that? Well, listen, when we met him, we went to the inauguration.

We spent quite a bit of time with him that day. I spoke with him a couple of times after, and then I invited him to come to Brussels to meet some European leaders. My goal was to create an informal event where he and some key people could get to know one another over dinner so that they could reach out directly to each other. And hopefully those connections have proven to be helpful now in his quest for support. But you would never know how someone was going to be tested in a social event or just meeting him. We thought he was smart. We thought he was a pretty tough guy. He was no shrinking violet. I mean, he was the toughest business there is, which is show business. Yeah. And but, you know, not even show business compares to walking around in your flak jacket and having bullets and missiles flying over your head.

So, yeah, I think as an ally, as someone who were supporting, you couldn't ask for a better country or a better person to support at this point. We do you think if you're a betting man, do you think that the Ukraine can win the war? It's totally up to us in the West. Oh, yeah. It's totally up to us. He's doing everything he can possibly do. They've had an incredible amount of ingenuity in what they may do with very little, but we could prove them to be decisive if we double and triple down, particularly with the longer-range missiles and even more robust intelligence. It really is up

to us, unfortunately. We don't want to have our own boots on the ground, which, trust me, we do not. We don't want to get into a direct shooting war with Russia. We need to do everything possible. We're doing a lot better than we were, but we're not doing everything possible. Yeah, it's quite extraordinary. You know, people that fight for their own country, their own land, their own freedom. It's a it's a tale of the human spirit, really, when it comes down to it. I mean, the Russians don't really care. And it seems like, you know, their heart and minds aren't really into it.

You know, you're being paid to do it. It's a whole lot different when you're you're defending your territory. And it's it's interesting. Russian Russian lives, according to Putin, are fungible, no different than sending, you know, robots out to be to be crushed. I mean, I have to say that whether it's President Biden, President Trump, President Bush, President Obama, I think all of them, Democrat and Republican, you know, sincerely value not only human lives, but American human life. I don't think Putin feels the same way about his Russian people. That's true. Yeah. That's why you pay more for a ground floor apartment than you do for a penthouse. Exactly.

The lower you go, the better it is. The better it is. He died falling out the ground floor window? That's weird. Anyway, welcome to Moscow. So, you know, we have an election coming up. How important are ambassadors to our standing in the world? Do the American people really grasp the concept of what people like you do when you're out there representing the American way of life, our ideals, capitalism, freedom? How important are ambassadors in the world and how much do they affect our standing and influence the world?

Well, they're extremely important. And I assume that, you know, your audience would say, well, yeah, of course he thinks they're important because he was one. And there's a little bit of truth to that. But the reason they're important is a true ambassador, particularly a political appointee, as opposed to a career ambassador. And you can talk about that in a second. Are the legal representative of the president of the United States, Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter, in that particular country or organization. And they speak as if the president is speaking. So all of the federal employees within that country essentially report to the ambassador. They don't report back to Washington. And depending on how

much confidence the president has in any particular ambassador, the ambassador can essentially be the president's stand-in and can get a lot done. They have access to the foreign leader. They have access to the secretary of state or the foreign minister. And they have every agency of the federal government in one way or another represented in their country or nearby that they can call upon. So it's vitally important. And I argue in my book that contrary to what the media says, we should have more political acquaintance who do have close relationships with whoever the president is, Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter, who can pick up the phone and call the president and really understand what the objective is, as opposed to a career individual who generally, in most cases,

can't get anywhere near the president. Yeah, you write in the book about inflated egos, botched phone calls, bad behavior, international jiu-jitsu. It was said that a lot of people, at least in the book about inflated egos, botched phone calls, bad behavior, international jiu-jitsu. It was said that a lot of people, at least in the White House staff, you know, would jump every morning to, what did Donald Trump tweet this morning? Did you ever have to clean up any of those messes? And what is that like where you have to go be the nice guy face to save face if maybe, you know, something got tweeted or whatever? Well, a lot of the messes I had to clean up where there was actual cleanup involved weren't actually Donald Trump's making. Okay. Some other bureaucrat within the federal government who took it upon themselves to do something

that was not consistent with his agenda. As far as his tweets were concerned, I tried not to do cleanup because that implies that he's wrong. He could tweet whatever he wants. I tried to explain what I thought he really meant by the tweet, if someone asked. Oh, there you go. That's one way of doing it. So one thing that I thought was kind of interesting, there's a great story about your parents coming from the Holocaust, and I believe they found each other after seven years. Do I have that correct? Well, they met, they married. My mother was pregnant shortly thereafter. And again, the ages of people back then were very different. My mother met my dad when she was 16

and married him at 16, was pregnant shortly thereafter. They had to flee, but they couldn't flee together. My mother and her family went to Uruguay, to South America, and my father wound up fighting in the French Foreign Legion against the Germans. He never saw my sister until she was seven years old for the first time in Uruguay. Wow. Did they stay in touch during this whole time? Were they separated by, you know, I mean, back then you didn't have, you know, you couldn't send text messages. Well, what they sent was old school airmail letters, very thin parchment, you know, paper. They used to make the paper super thin, so it was light and it was cheaper to send. And the Red

Cross, the International Red Cross turned out to be a godsend to not only my parents, but to many, many millions of families who were separated. They acted as the go-between and transmitted the letters back and forth. You know, and sometimes it would take months for a letter to arrive from the day you posted it. So no, it wasn't like a text. How much of that shape growing up in that environment, you know, Holocaust parents, you know, growing up with those challenges, how much of that shape you in your character, your interest in the truth and being pragmatic? How much of that difference do you think shape you as a character? Well, you never really appreciate

your parents, I think, until they're gone. And in my case, both my parents are gone now. I mean, they lived very, very long health lives right up until the end. They both passed in their 90s. So hopefully those genes will carry on. But as I mentioned in the Envoy, you know, they were hugely influential to me because, you know, the complaints my mom used to hear from kids, you know, in the 70s and 80s when I was growing up, you know, and what she had to go through, you know, they couldn't find their, you know, their this or their that and life was over. And here she is pregnant at 16, forced to build a life with no money in Uruguay. She doesn't speak the language or didn't at the time.

She was fluent in Spanish when she left Uruguay and German and French and several other languages. But, you know, she said it's not even the same planet what I went through and what the kids these days complain about. So if they don't get Wi-Fi, the world's over. The world's over. It's over. Yeah. They don't get Wi-Fi.

They're right there. Where's the window out of which I throw myself? I mean, there's no Wi-Fi. Well, you can move to Moscow and they can arrange that. You got a callback joke there. So I think it's a beautiful story. I mean, your parents' story, your story, it's an immigrant story, it's American story, and it's a success story. And of course, you know, you have the standing in history where

you've done this. Do you write about any lessons in the book, anything for business or leadership stuff? Because I mean, you're a leader. I do. Like I said, the envoy tries to touch on a few different things. It's not just about Trump. It's not just about ambassadors. It's not about me. I wanted to give people enough of a sense of my background and who I am so that they're not listening for, you know, 250, 280 pages. Who is this guy that's talking to me? So I gave them just enough so that they understood or understand who I am. But no, I do touch on business and not in a industry specific way, but in a general way, which, you know, really is sometimes the first step is the hardest and you just have to do it. You can't ever, ever let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Nothing's perfect. You just have to keep moving. And I go into that a little bit. And I think that's interesting because that same sort of application is how you seem to apply to politics and your testimony at the impeachment hearings. What's next for you? Would you ever run for political office? What's upcoming for you? Well, I have no such plans, but I'm spending time on my we're in a, you know, in a growth phase and we're we're doing some some M&A work right now in our in our company.

I'm speaking. I'm promoting the book. There are other projects that are I can't announce yet, but that are in the offing and I'm trying to do which I've been doing for the last 40 years. I'm trying to do some philanthropy and've been doing for the last 40 years, I'm trying to do some philanthropy and help others and spending time on that. So hopefully people will enjoy the Envoy and will stay tuned for what I'm doing next. Definitely. What's something that people don't know about you? What's maybe something just people aren't aware of about you that they maybe should know i'm a pussy cat well you don't look like one was that this is the day after halloween well you do seem like a very nice guy you came across as very affable in the in the thing and

in the in the peachman hearings and i remember watching it like i I'm like, this guy doesn't seem to be on any side, except for maybe the truth and being pragmatic. And you're just like, I'm here to tell the truth. And I think it's good. I think it's great that you expose this in the book. You talk about all of your things. One question I have of you that keeps rattling through my mind, you know, we talked about your parents' experience of growing up Jewish

and the Holocaust and everything. Trump recently got in trouble with some comments about the Jewish people and how they should appreciate him more and what he did. Do you find that he's—does the media mischaracterize those statements when he makes them sometimes as not being a little anti-Semitic? Well, look, his daughter is a converted Jew. His son-in-law is Jewish. As a New York real estate developer, you know, way more than 50 percent of the people with whom you're dealing are Jewish. I don't view Donald Trump as anti-Semitic. is that he really tried to help Israel, moving the embassy by essentially deciding that, I shouldn't say deciding, he finally acknowledged what many other presidents found politically incorrect and were unable to acknowledge, which is that the Palestinians

really are not in the peace business. They're in the grievance. And so he decided that maybe what we should do is make the Palestinians an offer they can't refuse. And if they refuse it, then it really does prove that they're in the grievance business, not in the peace business. And when he was able to prove that to a bunch of the other Arab countries, notably, you know, the Emirates, Qatar and others, they said, you know what, Mr. President, you're right. We love Israel. We want to do business with Israel. We want to have cultural exchanges. Let's leave the Palestinians aside for a moment. It doesn't mean that we can't address their issues at some point, but let's not have that block all of the progress. And that's what really gave birth to the Abraham Accords, which have proven to be extraordinarily beneficial for the entire region. Yeah. One good caveat that, you know, being able to fly, you know, over Israel and between Israel, you don't have to play games when you...

There are a lot of El Al airplanes parked at gates in Dubai right now, which no one would have believed four years ago. Yeah, or you have to keep dual passports so no one sees that you visited an Arab country. Exactly. That whole thing is just bogging my mind. I'm like, what year is it?

But then there you are. Did you ever, I know you sued the State Department and Mike Pompeo for your attorney fees for the impeachment hearing. Did they ever pay off? Well, the litigation is ongoing now. Yeah, it's really a lawsuit. Secretary Pompeo was dropped from that lawsuit. And it's just a lawsuit between myself and the U.S. government.

And it's really just a monetary claim. No one's mad at anyone. I just want them to pay the bill that they promised to pay. Oh, they promised to pay it. It was a couple of billion bucks at the beginning. Yeah. I mean, you're representing the country. They should do that.

So good luck in your thing. Well, thank you very much for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. Give us your.com so people can find you on the interwebs, please, sir. GordonSondland.com. G-O-R-D-O-N. S-O-N-D-L-A-N-D, all one word. And the book is The Envoy at Amazon.com.

There you go. It's a bitchy beach read, according to the author. So search for that on Amazon. I think he just created a new category on Amazon. So Amazon can catch up on that. Bitchy beach read. We have a lot of beach novelists. They're books for the chicks. They're novelists. They call their books for the chicks, their romance novels. They call them Beach Reads.

But Bitchy Beach Reads is definitely. Well, this is a unisex book. One size fits all. There you go. Well, it's good to know. So you can use any of the three bathrooms, the family bathroom, whatever. There you go. Joke, all jokes, folks.

Anyway, guys, pick it up wherever fine books are sold the book is called the envoy mastering the art of diplomacy with trump and the world came out october 25th 2022 thank you ambassador sullivan for being on the show with us we certainly appreciate it thank you so much chris i really enjoyed this there you go thank you and thanks for tuning in be sure to go to goodreads.com for just christmas youtube. youtube.com for Jess Crisfass, LinkedIn for Jess Crisfass. You can see Gordon sharing tons of stuff on LinkedIn and friends with him over there so we'll be posting this there as well.

Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe and we'll see you guys next time.