The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The In-Between: Life in the Micro by Christian Espinosa

Episode Date: December 23, 2023

The In-Between: Life in the Micro by Christian Espinosa Christianespinosa.com Some regrets don’t hit you all at once. They seep in at the corners of your life, at night or on a long drive, until they become a refrain. Those are the worst regrets of all. I was living in a bubble that burst on May 9, 2022. It was the middle of the afternoon. As my partner Vanessa and I approached a major intersection, a blue car accelerated, ran the red light, and T-boned a black truck directly in front of us. BOOM! The blue car’s hood crumpled like an accordion to absorb the impact. Within seconds, its front end was completely smashed, and its windows were broken. Then, everything went out of focus, except for what I needed to do—assess the scene for safety, check on the drivers of the blue car and black truck, and call 911. Nothing else mattered—I felt a heightened sense of purpose. I had always focused on one macro moment after another—the next mountain to climb or business to start. I hadn’t spent much time appreciating the micro-moments—life in between the macros. I’d been living in a macro-moment bubble. The accident awakened a desire to paint a complete picture of who I wanted to be and how I wanted to approach my life. This is my story of learning how to value the in-between and prioritize consciously living in the micro. About the author Christian Espinosa, an esteemed thought leader, is most known as the bestselling author of "The Smartest Person in the Room," which explores the limitations of seeking validation through achievement and the desire to be the brightest intellect in any room. With a deep desire to inspire others to harness their innate wisdom, overcome perceived barriers, and summon the courage to tread new paths, Christian authored his latest book, "The In-Between: Life in the Micro." This book chronicles his remarkable transformation—from a "me against the world" mindset cultivated during his tumultuous upbringing to his evolution as a compassionate global citizen committed to uplifting humanity. A dynamic entrepreneur, Christian built and successfully sold Alpine Security, a cybersecurity business. He founded and currently leads Blue Goat Cyber. He also has an array of professional and personal development certifications.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. There you go. Welcome to the Big Show, my family and friends. We certainly appreciate you guys coming by. Thanks for being a part of the Big Show.

We certainly appreciate it. As always, we bring you the smartest people, the latest authors, Pulitzer Prize winners, CEOs, billionaires, governors, all those people that have been on the show, U.S. ambassadors, you name it. We've had so many great authors on the show, and they bring to you their amazing stories, their journeys of life, the stuff they've spent tens of thousands or sometimes a lifetime researching if they're hollywood people they probably they probably believe in those sort of religions where they've lived a few lifetimes of stories they're bringing you so there's that we haven't had any of those on yet but there's still

time so anyway guys all we ask you for you in return is refer the show to your family friends and relatives go to goodreads.com fortes chris fosreads.com, Fortress Crispus, LinkedIn.com, Fortress Crispus, YouTube.com, Fortress Crispus. Subscribe to the big LinkedIn newsletter and the LinkedIn 130,000 group over there that the show is named after. Anyway, guys, we have an amazing guest on the show as well. We always do because we bring you the smartest guests and none of them are me. I'm just some idiot with a mic. Christian Espinoza joins us everyone's like yeah we know that chris christian espinoza is the author who joins us on the show

today he is the author of the latest book the in between life in the micro that just came out december 12th 2023 is a multi-book author and he's going to be talking to us about all the great stuff he's done he's an entrepreneur that built and sold a cyber security company he's going to be talking to us about all the great stuff he's done. He's an entrepreneur that built and sold a cybersecurity company. He's a best-selling author, and he helps technical leaders improve their leadership skills with his proven seven-step secure methodology. He's also an adventurer and loves anything with a waiver. We'll have to find out what that means. He's also a renowned thought leader best-selling author or christian is a dynamic entrepreneur passionate about inspiring others to harness their innate wisdom overcome perceived barriers and summon the courage to to reach new paths he is expertise extends to

cyber security real estate investment outdoor wilderness survival adventurous pursuits such as skydiving mountaineeering, and Ironman triathlons with 24 triathlons and two seven summits under his belt. Jesus, he's David Goggins Jr. Christian epitomizes the spirit of transformative leadership and relentless exploration and evidently he's a masochist. Welcome to the show, Christian. How are you?

I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on. There you go. Thanks for the me on. There you go. Thanks for the awesome intro. That's what we do around here. I was hopping around the camera and got a bit we got to edit. So welcome to the show. Give us a.com so we can find you on the interwebs.

Yeah, you can find me on christianespinoza.com or my cybersecurity company on bluegoatcyber.com. There you go. So give us a 30,000 overview of your new book, The Inbetween. My new book, The Inbetween, is a focused memoir, I like to say. It's about where I've got things right and where I've got them wrong in the micro moments, I say. So I'm pretty focused. I've been focused on the macro thing, the big goal I've been trying to achieve or trying to get.

And I think a lot of us get super focused on that. And we often ignore the micro moments between where we are and that big goal. So we kind of have blinders on. So my book is about where I've ignored those moments and screwed things up and where I've got them right. Because I think if you pay attention and have some intention behind the moments right in front of you, they can inform you that maybe this goal you're after is not really the goal you want to go after. And they can also add fulfillment to your life and improve your relationships as well. There you go. And is this based on, do you cover cybersecurity in here or is this more of a motivational book? I don't really cover cybersecurity.

I have a couple of stories from my first cybersecurity business because that was part of my entrepreneurial journey. Okay. But it's a little bit about my adventures with Iron Man and almost dying on a mountain and skydiving and different things that have had an impact on my life. There you go. So what motivates you to want to do some of these things? I mean, that's like we're joking with the David Goggins thing. That's a lot of self-abuse there. It is.

The irony is I grew up in a very chaotic environment, very poor, with a drug-addicted mother. So at first I valued safety and stability. I joined the military. I got that. But then I realized that's not really who I am. I like to take risks, to do things like I mentioned with a waiver where you could lose an arm or possibly die if there's a waiver involved. I'm like, help me with that activity. Yeah. So I realized i had to shift i i kind of like live this life that i thought i wanted because i didn't have it

growing up but it literally wasn't me so i shifted into taking a risk leaving a nine-to-five doing the entrepreneur journey skydiving climbing mountains doing things that kind of like fill my soul so why do you why do you find that fills your soul what motivates you what's the what's climbing mountains, doing things that kind of like fill my soul. So why do you find that fills your soul? What motivates you? What's the gear there? What motivates me about those activities is the growth. I think when you put yourself in uncomfortable situations, it forces you to do some introspection and to grow.

And that to me is the appeal. There you go. It's notpection and to grow and that to me is is the appeal there you go it's not for everybody but it's for me you know hey i mean that's what you know david govans and other people who do this they you know whether you're growing physically you're growing physically you're growing mentally you know the one thing i learned in in going to the gym late in life regularly is that you know it's more than just going and lifting weights there's a discipline to it there's a mastery of your mind there's a there it does things for your body that and your mind that you know you don't really understand when you just go i'm just going to go to the gym and lift some stupid weights you know there's

especially as a man i think it really appeals to us because we're designed by biology to, you know, have upper body strength and have, you know, muscles and, you know, we're designed to be tribal hunters and killers. challenging ourselves by pushing the limits whether it's mentally or physically the physical aspects of the gym working out and doing events like what you're doing really test your your ability you know discipline seems to have been my favorite word over the last couple years where you know when i think about you know slacking off or being a butt you know i'm like hey man discipline get on your stick discipline breeds happinessine breeds happiness and freedom, they say. Yeah, it does. It does. I think there's a quote that I think that I have on my phone that says that from, was

it Jocko? Discipline equals freedom. Yeah. Yeah, something we used to say in the military quite a bit. Really? There you go. I think Jocko is from the military. Yeah, he's a Navy SEAL.

Yeah. Yeah. And we've had Navy SEALs on the show and i've read some of their books and and read about hell week and some of the stuff that navy seals do and jeez that's that's a that's a different that's a different kind of man than i am at this point but god bless those guys they're the people stand between us in the darkness so tell us a little bit about how you grew up. You've alluded a little bit to it, but tell us about some of the things that kind of shaped you.

I grew up in California, and I moved from California to Arkansas when I was 12. That'll fucking shape you right there. Yeah, I moved from L.A. basically to a town of 800 people in Arkansas. Basically deliverance. Yeah. And my mother was always addicted to prescription meds and other drugs. So I had a chaotic environment, lots of low life friends over all the time, parties, wrecked cars, cops coming over.

Wow. summertime parties wrecked cars cops coming over wow poverty you know we had to go get government milk and the powdered milk and those big blocks of cheese and food stamps back in the day where my mom went my mom would sell the food stamps like a hundred dollars with the food stamps for 20 dollars in cash so she could buy drugs and things like that so it was like a crazy environment and i think for me that really made me crave that stability and that safety because I didn't have it growing up. And that compelled me, drove me to apply to all the military academies. And I went to the Air Force Academy and that's how I ended up in the military. But it took me a while to sort of unravel that I really don't like that safety and security.

I mean, I like it, but I like to take risks. So from my adult life, I spent a lot of time doing a 9-to-5 job and things I didn't really like because I thought that's what I wanted. So it took me a while to kind of unravel that. You're seeking stability. Right. Yeah. And so you're seeking stability right yeah and so in your state you're you're seeking a form you know and and so it not really a form but a format or or i don't know a frame and so you know

there's there's there's safety in that but you kind of found that was boring after a while do you it's kind of interesting maybe maybe you found that there's a way to you know kind of be in being an environment where there's chaotic or chaos but but you you figured out a way to stabilize it maybe i think so i i guess i found it boring because i remember like driving to my nine to five job one day, many days I would drive there on the highway. And I just wanted to bypass the exit to the to the work facility. I was like, I just want to start my life over because I hate this job. I don't like walking to the building.

I don't like anything about it. But I was like, well, I need the stability, though. So I had to pivot from that. And my childhood gave me like this me against the world attitude like i felt like i couldn't trust anybody it took me a while to unravel that too because i feel like you can only get so far in life with a me against the world attitude because i had to realize that i'm part of the world and i need a team and i need like people to support me and i need the support of the people as well. There you go. So when did you

start doing the marathons and different things? I started that in, I think, 2003. I have a friend that's super competitive and he bet me to this triathlon. And I was like, I didn't even know what a triathlon was. I had to Google it. And I didn't know how to swim i didn't have a bike but no matter what the guy wanted to do i always wanted to beat him so because he talked so much smack so we did this triathlon it's a short triathlon and i i had to learn how to swim uh so i before i couldn't even swim like one lap of the pool but i i read the book called Total Immersion. Learned to swim. I borrowed a bike, and it ended up beating him in that race.

And that was the end of his career with triathlon because he was so embarrassed. But I made a lot of mistakes. I wore a cotton shirt, and if you wear a cotton shirt and it's like super humid, this was in St. Louis, the friction causes your nipples to get chaf chased and start bleeding. So it's super painful. Yeah. So I made a lot of rookie mistakes, but it was fun. There you go. And after that, I just kept doing longer ones and longer ones and learning more and learning more and challenging myself.

You kind of learn about yourself when you do these things, don't you? You learn about knowing your limits, some of the mindset, some of the stinking thinking you have in your head, I think. I don't know. This is a question. But I think you also, it gives you time to process a lot of stuff because you're in that moment and you've got to sometimes think about stuff. You have to face yourself, right? You have to face your body you have to face what maybe you think you're you thought of your limits and and push them to

the next level do i have that right 100 like in an iron man it typically takes me between 12 and 14 hours jesus so you go through i mean literally i'm racing from sun up to sun down and you go through, I mean, literally I'm racing from sunup to sundown and you go through all of life's emotions. Like in that 13 hours, you feel elated for a while. You feel miserable. I mean, there's been times I've been like in the fetal position, throwing up on the side of the road. You know, you just go through a lot of different things. And what I realized though, as long as you like keep moving forward, you'll start to feel better and things will improve. But often we, in life, if we hit a roadblock, we just kind of give up.

That's what I'm saying. It's a good analogy to life, but condensed into 13 hours for me. There's kind of a life lesson there, right? Keep moving. Yes. Keep learning. Keep fighting. Keep growing. Keep trying to learning, keep fighting, keep growing,

keep trying to get to the next marker. You know, life is a story of survival, really, when it comes down to it. The university is a survival game, really. That's kind of how I look at it. It's a game of the fittest and you've always got to be learning, always got to be growing, always got to be doing something different. and that's important and you know the thing is when you triumph over yourself using discipline and improve yourself or learn something new or or you know overcome adversity or trauma it's a whole lot better on the other side and looking back and you can look at your life and go wow you know i i did some stupid shit when i was young but but I sure have gotten that mastered under effect. There's a story that I think you tell in the book

about a car accident. Is that correct? That's correct, yeah. Tell us about that. I had been working on the concept of the in-between the book for a, and those micro-moments. And I kind of wasn't sure I wanted to write about that. But then I flew back to St. Louis from, I think, Miami. And I was in a car accident where a truck T-boned a car in the intersection. And the truck was bounced back.

It hit me. But what I noticed about that accident, everything kind of went out of focus. And my girlfriend, who's a nurse, and me were the only two people that got out and helped in this intersection. Everybody else just sat in the car, like filming, getting frustrated on their phone. And the woman that was in the car was in shock. She had a broken, I mean, her arm looked broken. She was bleeding, glasses all over.

And, you know, we helped her. I helped the guy in the truck. You know, we called 911. And for some reason during the accident, like all these dots about this concept of the in-between and the micro moments connected. And I felt like this inner calling, like this voice told me, like, this is what I need to write the book on. This solidified the doubt in my mind about this is what I need to write on. So something about focusing on one macro after another. Tell us what that means.

To me, the macro is the big thing you're trying to accomplish. It could be like in the accident I just referred to, the macro was getting to dinner and then to my girlfriend's family function. That was where we were going. But then this accident happened, which is a macro event, but it's in the micro in context of what we're trying to do. So instead of finding it frustrating and sitting in the car like everybody else, we thought, you know, we're going to get out and with some intention, help these people and help in this scenario, because I feel like as a fellow human being, if I was in an accident, I would want somebody to help me as well. It's ironic that nobody else got out and helped.

So, you know, I think everyone else found it a distraction on their way to the thing that they defined as a macro, where I decided to embrace this moment, this micro moment in my life and add value to it. So it's really shifting the perspective of finding some balance between the thing you're trying to do, but then embracing the stuff right in front of you and then finding a way to step into it intentionally. There you go. Life is full of interruptions, zigzags, you know, you think you're going towards a goal and there's interrupts or failures of that, of trying to get to that goal. And you know, if you're an entrepreneur, you're having to problem solve constantly. So, you know, there's all sorts of things that pop up. I was watching a TikTok from a guy who he's been selling jets for 40 years on TikTok.

And he talks about jets and selling jets. And he talks about his life. And it was funny. I was watching him. He did a life in the day video I watched last night. And he goes, you know, I've been selling jets for 40 years. And he goes, still to this day, there's the most unique problems that I've never seen pop up in deals. You have to overcome problems you have to solve.

He goes, it's 40 years. You would think after 40 years, you're like, yeah, I've seen it all. Right. But no, there's still like new weird shit that happens that you got to fix and you got to overcome and questions you got to answer and you know there's a there's a million ways to jam up a deal and i thought you know that's really interesting you know 40 years and you'd think you'd seen and master it all and you're like nah there's nothing new that can come with me i haven't seen before and we don't know how to handle but that's that's

how life works that's why i say it's a survival game it's a marathon you know kind of what you're running that's kind of what we're all running is a giant really long iron man marathon um it's a challenge of the physical you know you you get older and shit doesn't work anymore and you're trying to get it to work you know why doesn't this work like it used to why can't i lose weight like i used to what is you know and so you're you're trying to get it to work. Why doesn't this work like it used to? Why can't I lose weight like it used to? Why does, you know? And so you're constantly in this game of survival. And some people fight it.

And they're just like, I'm just going to sit here and pout. And maybe be like the people you talked about in the traffic thing, where they're just like, I'm going to sit here and just be angry about this moment and how someone interrupted me on the way to my goal and play victim. But, you know, you guys were being you know actualized self-actualized and saying hey how can we turn this moment this macro as you put it into something useful yeah there you go yeah and the thing is like that moment if i found it distracting just sat in car, it wouldn't have shaped me, and I probably wouldn't have made the connections that I did to write the book. So I'm saying some of these things that we may think are distracting can inform us on our life choices because I feel like we know what we need to do internally, but sometimes we filter it out or block it out. And sometimes stepping into a situation can reveal that.

There you go. And so the accident was an epiphany moment for you and led you to a desire to do what with yourself? It crystallized the concepts of the book, it also crystallized that I wanted to be someone that helped other people more so than I have. As I mentioned before, it took me a long time to get over the me against the world attitude. And it's been like this progression where I feel like in the state of my life now, I want to give back and help people that are on the journey, maybe a little bit behind me, make their journey better. And that's what I'm embracing now

versus just focusing on trying to grow a business or just myself or the things that I've done in the past. There you go. And so you've inspired other people to do it. There's a few things you talk about in your books. One is the seven-step secure methodology. Tease us out a little bit about what's inside that. So the seven-step secure methodology is a framework I came up with to help highly rationally intelligent or high IQ individuals develop people skills or emotional intelligence. I think one of the biggest obstacles for a lot of people that are highly rationally intelligent is they don't know where to start on how to develop emotional intelligence. I came up with my first cybersecurity company because I realized 99% of my problems in my company were because my staff lacked interpersonal or people skills.

It wasn't because my staff lacked technical skills. So what I did in the company that worked is what I wrote about and made those seven steps. There you go. So can you tease a few out to us? Yeah, the first step is awareness. I think anything starts with awareness, and it's not awareness of the world around us. It's really awareness of ourselves. And one of the things I talk about, I apply a lot of neuro-linguistic programming concepts in the book. One of the things is we are very programmatic. We like to think we're

unpredictable, but if we receive a trigger or a stimulus, there's like a program in our brain that automatically runs. And we have to ask ourselves, if this program is running and this is my behavior as a result, is it serving me? And often the answer is no. If it's no, then you have to be aware enough to stop that program from running, given the trigger, and run a new program, which is basically new behavior. And that new program will start off as a weak neural pathway in your brain. But the more you exercise just like a muscle, the stronger it will become, and eventually it will become the default behavior. So one of my engineers in my first company, as an example, whenever somebody

asked him a question, his default program was to get defensive. And if you get defensive, the conversation typically doesn't go that well. So it was beneficial for him to install a new program. So if somebody asked a question, he would get curious rather than defensive, and then maybe ask some more questions to the person and get what they're not quite understanding. So that's the awareness concept. I'll give a couple other highlights. Communication is another step. I'm a big proponent that the meaning of communication is response you get. So that shifts the ownership back on you to alter how you communicate. If the person

you're communicating with doesn't understand you, you're not getting the budget, you're not getting a raise, you're not making the sale, it shifts the ownership back to you. Another concept is monotasking, which is one people get kind of fired up about. So monotasking is concentrated focus on one thing at a time it's the antithesis of multitasking which i think we've been brainwashed to do um monotasking makes you way more productive multitasking makes you busy but not productive monotasking makes you productive because you concentrate your effort on one thing at a time and then it also helps with communication and relationships because if you're monotasking when you're with somebody you're present you're not thinking about something else

you're not checking your phone you're present and that person you're with feels valued because you're not distracted while you're talking or having dinner with them because you probably witnessed before people at dinner i've seen this like just the other day there's a couple at dinner both of them on their cell phones. I'm like, why didn't they even go to dinner? They're not even talking with each other. It's so bizarre to me. I've seen whole families do that,

where the whole family is looking at their phone. You're just like, that's insane. I have phones on the desk rule, on the table rule. So that's my rule when I go out and talk to people. Otherwise, I'm like, why the fuck am I here? You can sit home with your phone yeah yeah everybody should have that rule i i try and i try and be a good example to that rule too where i don't pick up my phone about the only time i pick up my phone is maybe if they go to the bathroom but normally i you know i've got my watch where i can get if there's anything really important I get. But usually, I love this concept.

What is it? It's called mono what? Monotasking. Monotasking. I love this concept, man. I need to focus this more. I need to put like a big tag on my computer that says do monotasking. Do you turn off your phone notifications or the dings to help stay in that arena?

100%. So what I do with monotasking is like on my calendar, I'll set up a block of time for an hour. Okay. And during that block of time, the only thing I do, let's say I'm writing a new chapter for my book. That's all I do.

I don't check email. I don't answer my phone. I don't do anything else. That's it. Because all those distractions cause you to have to switch context between one task to another task. And it causes you to be inefficient, and it causes you to make mistakes. Definitely.

I have a problem with multitasking. I thought I had my ADHD mastered, but it seems like the more busy I've gotten, the more, the more busier I am, the more, the more multitasking distraction I need. I don't know. And so I love this. I love this monotasking concept. This, they should make this a thing because we, we need it so much. We have so many distractions in this world. Like I say, when I go out to eat with people or dates, I'm like, we all put our phones down phones down if if i'm on a date with somebody you can't put their stupid phone down to talk to you i'm just like you you're you're trying out for a shot at the title if you can't if you can't you know imagine going to a job interview and like

looking at your phone all the time you're like you're like hang on one second i gotta check this message oh a tiktok oh there's a cool TikTok video. Imagine doing that in a job interview. It's the same thing on a date. Give me a break. Is this person this dumb? Do I really want to spend the rest of my life with them? But yeah, it's that or if they're so addicted and need for attention and validation from men on their Instagram.

There's that, which we see a lot of nowadays. A lot of addiction to validation. But it's really important. When I go out to eat with my friends and stuff, I put our phones down and I kind of have a phones down rule. Everyone put your phone down. Let's talk and be present. Being present is really important nowadays. I've struggled with that for the last few years. And when I finally understand it after it was Eckhart tolle turned me on to it being present and and trying to be present with with when i'm with family or friends but also they have to be interesting as well because if you bore me i might go to my phone or you know that's the challenge yeah there's only so much and i

usually am the entertainer and the driver or everything. But, you know, so I try. But, you know, every now and then people bore the shit out of me. But that's their problem. So there you go. Any other tips you want to tease out? One of the things I talk about in the book is acknowledgement and appreciation. That's something that as a leader I realized I wasn't good at because I went to the Ironman World Championship in 2005. This is a story that sticks in my mind. And I remember standing at the finish line. I wasn't

racing. I just was watching, telling myself one day I'll do that race. 10 years later, 2015, I did the race. I finished it. I ran across the finish line. And I never took one moment, one second to congratulate myself or pat myself on the back. I was automatically thinking about the next big goal to accomplish. And what I realized is if I couldn't appreciate myself for something that took me 10 years to freaking do, then I'm probably going to have a hard time appreciating my staff and acknowledging my staff. And that was true so i'd reflect on that and then start appreciating my staff for things that they were doing which were valuable things but also realize that i needed to appreciate but appreciate them in a way that they feel appreciated there's

you probably heard the five lovely love languages we each you know value a certain way of receiving things otherwise we don't feel appreciated like my birthday was not too long ago, and my girlfriend got me some gifts. I don't like gifts. It's not one of my love languages. It did not make me feel appreciated. She should know this, but people like to give somebody the same thing that they value typically. It takes a little bit of insight to realize what somebody really values. I've had that from girlfriends where they give me what they want really here here's this course here's

a sweater and hoodie that i'm gonna just wear all the time so stuff like that yeah here's a new car with your money that i'm gonna drive yeah that's how it works out yeah it doesn't make you feel appreciated it does kind of bug me because i'm like wait i i don't understand how married guys deal with it but that's not my problem but i'm just like oh you got me a gift with my money thanks wow that's great that's great is it really a gift at this point how if you just cook a dinner that'd be nice so give us your final pitch out on the show for people to pick up your books tell us too about your. You have some coaching programs on your website as well and some methodology course. Evidently, the secure methodology course.

Tell us about some of the offerings you have and how people can onboard with you there. Yeah, on my website, ChristianEspinosa.com, I've got the secure methodology course, which the course has spent a lot of time developing. It goes over those seven steps to help improve your emotional intelligence and people skills. So the steps I talked about with awareness and ending with Kaizen, it goes through all those steps and has some exercises in there as well. And I've got my two books out. The In Between just came out last week, as we mentioned. I'm trying to get, you know, sales with that. And I will have the audio book coming out

in January. I had Kaleo Griffiths record that. He recorded my first book. And my coaching, I've kind of suspended. I'm looking more into giving keynote speeches next year. So if somebody wants to talk on leadership or the in-between concepts or my secure methodology, you can find me on my website and connect with me there. There you go. There you go. Well, it's been fun having you on the show, Christian. Thank you very much for coming on.

Yeah. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. There you go. Folks, start up the book where refined books are sold. The In-Between, Life in the micro came out december 12 2023 by christian espinoza thanks for tuning in go to goodreads.com fortune is chris voss or else no i'm just kidding there's lots of great stuff on goodreads goodreads is so great for authors

and books you can probably see most of the authors too the blog feeds into there and the podcast feeds in there so if you want to see like a lot of the great authors on the show, you could do that as well. Chris Voss on LinkedIn.com and the big LinkedIn newsletter and the 130,000 LinkedIn group over there. Oh, the other place we're on the internet. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe and we'll see you guys next time.