The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Last Duel: A True Story of Crime, Scandal, and Trial by Combat by Eric Jager – The Last Duel Movie

Episode Date: October 8, 2021

The Last Duel: A True Story of Crime, Scandal, and Trial by Combat by Eric Jager - The Last Duel Movie The gripping true story of the duel to end all duels in medieval France as a resolute knight defends his wife’s honor against the man she accuses of a heinous crime In the midst of the devastating Hundred Years’ War between France and England, Jean de Carrouges, a Norman knight fresh from combat in Scotland, returns home to yet another deadly threat. His wife, Marguerite, has accused squire Jacques Le Gris of rape. A deadlocked court decrees a trial by combat between the two men that will also leave Marguerite’s fate in the balance. For if her husband loses the duel, she will be put to death as a false accuser. While enemy troops pillage the land, and rebellion and plague threaten the lives of all, Carrouges and Le Gris meet in full armor on a walled field in Paris. What follows is the final duel ever authorized by the Parlement of Paris, a fierce fight with lance, sword, and dagger before a massive crowd that includes the teenage King Charles VI, during which both combatants are wounded—but only one fatally. Based on extensive research in Normandy and Paris, The Last Duel brings to life a colorful, turbulent age and three unforgettable characters caught in a fatal triangle of crime, scandal, and revenge. The Last Duel is at once a moving human drama, a captivating true crime story, and an engrossing work of historical intrigue with themes that echo powerfully centuries later.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain now here's your host chris voss hi this is voss here from the chris voss show.com the chris voss show.com hey we're coming here with a great podcast we certainly appreciate you guys tuning in uh this is going to be exciting taking podcasts we're going to have today if you you have questions, shoot them over to us.

We're live on LinkedIn and YouTube and a few different other channels. So if you see that, feel free to shoot us your questions. So we're excited to announce my new book is coming out. It's called Beacons of Leadership, Inspiring Lessons of Success in Business and Innovation. It's going to be coming out on October 5th, 2021. And I'm really excited for you to get a chance to read this book. It's filled with a multitude of my insightful stories, lessons, my life, and experiences in leadership and character. I give you some of the secrets from my CEO Entrepreneur Toolbox that I use to scale my business success, innovate, and build a multitude of companies. I've been a CEO for, what is it, like 33, 35 years now.

We talk about leadership, the importance of leadership, how to become a great leader, and how anyone can become a great leader as well. So you can pre-order the book right now wherever fine books are sold, but the best thing to do on getting a pre-order deal is to go to beaconsofleadership.com. That's beaconsofleadership.com. That's beaconsofleadership.com. On there, you can find several packages you can take advantage of in ordering the book. And for the same price of what you can get it from someplace else like Amazon, you can get all sorts of extra goodies that we've taken and given away.

Different collectors, limited edition, custom-made numbered book plates that are going to be autographed by me. There's all sorts of other goodies that you can get when you buy the book from beaconsofleadership.com. So be sure to go there, check it out, or order the book wherever fine books are sold. We also, this is a book that's going to be a tie-in to a movie coming out with Ben Affleck and Matt Damon next week, so you want to check that out as well. The book is called The Last D a true story of crime scandal and trial by combat by eric jagger and eric did i get that last name correct you did thank you there we go there we go make sure we get that right to see the video version let's go to youtube.com for chest chris faust see

all the books we read and review on goodreads.com for chest chris faust facebook linkedin twitter all the different places we have it so eric is on the show, as you probably already know, since I already cued him, but he wrote this book quite some time ago in 2005, and they are now making it into a movie, or they have made it into a movie, and it's going to be coming out next week. So you're going to be excited to check this out. He holds a PhD from the University of Michigan and has also taught at Columbia University. He's an award-winning professor of English at UCLA. He is the author of two previous books, including The Book of the Heart, a study of heart imagery in medieval literature, and numerous articles for acclaimed academic journals. He lives in Los Angeles. Welcome to the show, Eric. How are you?

Thank you so much for having me, Chris, and I'm very well today. Thank you. Thank you, and congratulations on the reissue of your book for this movie. Thank you. Thank you. I'm thrilled about that, too. This is going to be pretty cool. Give me your plugs so that people can find you on the interwebs and find out more. I have a page at the University of California, Los Angeles, UCLA, in the English department. And you can also find something about me on Wikipedia. I don't actually have an author page, but you can find my books wherever fine books are sold, as they say, especially independent bookstores, but also

at the usual online sources too. I'm sure after this movie, people are going to know your name even more than they already did, huh? I don't know about that, but perhaps. Yeah, you're going right over the top. How did you find this story originally? What made you interested about it? And why did you write the book? Okay, Chris, I was living at the time in New York, teaching at Columbia, something you mentioned. And I had written my first book, very scholarly sort of thing, and happened one day to be reading, as one does, if you're a medievalist, you're always reading odd bits and pieces of thing and happened one day to be reading, as one does if you're a medievalist, you're always reading odd bits and pieces of this and that. And I happened to read what is actually quite a well

known chronicle from the 14th century by a fellow named Jean, who sounds French, but is actually from Flanders, but he did write in French. And it's a really, it's a panoramic book of all sorts of things. If you're interested in the Middle Ages, it's a great read because it tells you about plague and war and the Hundred Years' War in particular between England and France and various campaigns, royal intrigue, all sorts of interesting behind-the-scenes stories from court. And in the middle of this, I stumbled across six or seven pages that told the story of this amazing duel that took place in the year 1386 between two Norman noblemen over this remarkable woman of the time named Marguerite de Garouge. Oh, wow. Wow. Now, have you always been interested in the medieval era? What got you cued into that in your life? That's a good

question. It could be an early influence. What I remember growing up as a kid is I wanted to be a major league baseball player or perhaps an astronaut. But we did live, our family lived in France for two years in the early 60s. And we lived in an old town, maybe 100 miles or so south of Paris called Chateauroux, which actually had been involved in the Hundred Years' War. It had been a scene of campaigns. And there was this old chateau in the middle of town, quite beautiful. And I remember being fascinated by it, even as a four- or five-year-old. And I think not long after that, I became interested in stories of knights and castles and medieval adventures, that sort of thing. Yeah, that's a real boyhood thing, I think, where as a kid you get interested in all that sort of stuff. And there's a kind of mystic sort of romantic airishness to that way that's masculine and

stuff like that. Sure. And I think one of my relatives gave me a book about armor at some point early, and I became really interested in the sort of technicalities of armor and how these guys would all suit it up like that. Yeah. I'm not a real big fan of flesh and swords, so that's in my rule book of being against. Now, for those of you watching on YouTube, and if you're listening to this on the podcast, go watch it on YouTube, you have, I think, a helmet behind you on the right? That is a helmet from the late 14th century.

It's very similar to the helmet for a suit of armor that you can see at the Metropolitan Museum in New York. it's a well-known example of armor from this period. And it's a two-part helmet. It's got the part that covers the head, and then it's got the visor, that very beaked visor that you can raise to. And then below that would have been a little curtain of mail, often called chain mail, but the experts tell me that it's, you only call it mail. Okay. That would have been there to guard the neck. And this is the type of helmet that was very common at the time of,

of the duel in this story. Now is the beak on it pointed to use as a weapon or is it to deflect? Maybe someone's trying to take your head off with a sword and it'll pass it away from your face. I think the second function is the major one to deflect blows one way or the other, sometimes called the pig snout. The technical name for that type of helmet is a bassinet. And it went out of fashion a couple of decades later because they realized that the neck was still very vulnerable. And they added a third plate down here that

entirely enclosed the head, almost like some motorcycle helmets that so that today so that there was more protection. But I don't know that the beak was ever really the intention intentionally used as a weapon. But in a duel where all the rules were thrown aside, anything could happen. Yeah, I'd walk around all day and headbutt people with that. People had a hated dress. What? And take that you. That's what I do. People that I hated. What? And take that, you. And when the cops showed up, I'd just be like, I was bending over.

I don't know what's going on. They got in the way. But yeah, I don't know. And they'd be like, why are you wearing that? So give us an overall arcing of the narrative of the book, at least an overview, if you want. Okay, sure. The story really begins with a Norman nobleman named Jean de Carouge, who comes from an old family and is a very seasoned warrior around the late 1370s, 1380. And he has a friend, a close friend at the same court, which is governed by a fellow named Count

Pierre, a friend and a comrade in the same court named Jacques Legree. They're both squires at the time, and they get along very well. In fact, Legree has served as a godfather, a godparent to one of Carouge's children, so that's making him almost a family member in the sort of social network of the time. And around the year 1380, Jean de Carouge marries a second wife named Marguerite de Thibouvia is her name. And she also comes from a very old family. She's beautiful, educated, virtuous. The only sort of cloud over her family is that her father once betrayed the French king. So she may be thought traitor's daughter by some. But Carouge marries her possibly for any number of reasons, but including what was probably a pretty substantial dowry.

But after this point, he and Legree start to have a falling out. In fact, it's pretty clear that Legree was never even at the wedding, Marguerite, Jean and Marguerite's wedding. A falling out over land, over various, a preferment at court. Legree is clearly the favorite of Count Pierre. Carouge sees his fortunes falling. And so they have this break. They have this falling out. And it's not really repaired until about 1384, maybe four years into the marriage, the Jones' new marriage, when they both are present at, that is,

Legree and Carouge are present at a social event, a sort of party, where they make friends again. They reconcile. And Carouge even orders his fairly new young wife, Marguerite, to kiss Le Gris as a sign of peace and renewed friendship, which is not uncommon. The kiss of friendship, the kiss of peace was a rather common thing in church and other ceremonies. But nonetheless, this happens. And it's the first time that Le Gris has met Marguerite, and apparently she makes quite an impression on him. A year later, Carouge goes off to Scotland on a royal campaign for the French king because he really wants to improve his financial fortunes. And you can do this at war, if you survive, by getting plunder and capturing valuable prisoners.

He comes back ill, having lost a lot of money, a knighthood. He's gained a knighthood during his campaign, but that's about it. And off he goes to Paris in early 1386 to probably on business, the records say, but perhaps to get his military pay that's owing him. And he leaves his wife, Marguerite, in the care of his mother, her mother-in-law, Nicole, on a remote Normandy estate. And as he goes off, it's about a three-week trip. And during his absence, Nicole one day leaves as well. His mother, Marguerite's mother-in-law, leaves, leaving Marguerite almost alone. She goes off to another nearby town on her own business, and Marguerite is left behind. And that day, a man named Adam Lavelle appears and says he carries Legree's compliments to her, and that Legree would really like to talk to her. And she rejects this

offer adamantly, according to her later testimony in court. But suddenly, Legris himself bursts in and claims that he's in love with her, that she's the lady of all the land, as he puts it, that he would do anything for her. And she, again, rejects, adamantly rejects these offers and tells him she doesn't want to hear this sort of thing. So he grabs her by the hand, forces her to sit down on a bench in probably the hall of this manor house, and says he knows about her husband's money troubles. He will give her plenty of money if she will just comply with his wishes. And she refuses again, and the two men grab her, and kicking and screaming, they carry her upstairs up this long stone staircase, apparently,

and into a bedroom. And there, Leggris throws her down on the bed. She manages to escape, tries to flee through another door. He catches her, throws her back down on the bed, demands that Louvel come back in to help hold her down. And there, according to what she testifies in court, Legris rapes her. Wow. So she keeps her silence about this event. When her mother-in-law comes home, evidently she does not trust her mother-in-law,

and she waits until Jean comes home. And when they're finally alone that evening, before they go to bed, she tells him the story. He believes her. He informs all of their relatives. What seems to have been a family meeting. The news gets out around Normandy. Count Pierre is forced to hold a hearing because it was up to the overlord to settle disputes between his vassals, and Carouge and Legree are his men.

And so he holds a hearing at which he exonerates Legree. Now, interesting thing, Jean and Marguerite are not at that hearing. They were invited. They may even have been summoned, but they may not have felt it was safe to go. Marguerite may have been in no condition to go. They may have feared for their lives. And they may also have realized that a negative opinion, an unfavorable opinion, would give Carouge the opportunity to do what he does next. He appeals to the king for a duel. Now, this is a point of law at this time. Norman nobles, any noble in France, really, who has a

complaint with his overlord, which is what Carouge now has because Count Pierre has declared Le Gris innocent, noble, can appeal to the king for a duel. And so, probably leaving Marguerite very safely chaperoned and guarded from further harm, he rides off to Paris, appeals to the king. The king turns the case over to his parliament, which was again following procedure. And by July, both men, Legris and Carouge, are in Paris for a challenge, the formal face-off at which one Carouge throws down his gauntlet. Le Gris picks it up, agreeing to fight. And so the possibility of a duel is now in the air.

But before that can happen, the parliament summons everyone to Paris, takes reams and reams of testimony from both sides. What did Marc Gris say? What did Le Gris say? What do other witnesses or possible witnesses say? Until finally, at the end of the summer in september they cannot decide based on the evidence and so they declare they authorize the very rare duel at this time and it's scheduled it ultimately takes place after some delays during christmas on december 29th 1386 before the king court, and thousands of spectators

who would have gathered to watch this thing unfold on a field that is completely surrounded by a wooden wall to prevent the combatants from escaping. And with all of these people in attendance, the idea being that God will assure justice and that the man telling the truth, Caruso Legree, will prevail on the field of battle. Wow. And is this what they refer to as trial by combat? Yes, it is. Exactly.

There are many names for it, but that is one of the formal names, yes. So is the format like Mad Max, two men enter, one man leave? Pretty much, yeah. As someone has put it, one Frenchman will die as a result of this. This sounds like my first seven marriages. No, I'm just kidding. That's a joke. So how common was this in the middle ages? There were different kinds of duels, trial by combat, and one form of it was fairly common in civil law. If two landowners, and even the church being a great landowner, was frequently involved in duels, believe it or not, they would have a champion, someone who,

a skilled fighter that they would hire. There's even a bishop in 13th century England who has in his account books, which still survive, a retainer, an annual retainer that he would pay to a champion who would be ready to come in and fight for him in the case of a lawsuit where he wanted to win. In civil law, it was not a fight to the death, and it could take place between people of various levels of society. But the duel to the death was a sort of more specialized form of the duel in trial by combat in criminal law. And there it was reserved for typically for crimes, very serious capital crimes, treason, murder, rape, and so forth. And in those cases, it was limited in France by this time to just nobles. You could

not, if you were a commoner or a cleric, call for a duel. You had to be a noble in order to enjoy that privilege. That's wild, man. So why did you call this the last duel? The title is meant to be a little provocative because everyone knows that Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr had a famous duel and that there were many duels, famous, unfamous, in succeeding centuries. But this was, in fact, the last duel we know of that was authorized by the Parliament of Paris and essentially the Parliament being the king's council, essentially the king of France, the last one that he authorized. There were further appeals for duels after this that came before the Parliament and the king, but they were denied.

And this seems by wide scholarly opinion to have been the last. This is pretty cool. Were you involved with the film production? I was, in fact. Early 2019, soon after it was optioned by Scott Free, which is Ridley Scott's company, and Pearl Street Films, which is Matt Damon and Ben Affleck's company. I was invited to a meeting at Pearl Street with Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, and two of the producers on the project, Kevin Walsh and Drew Vinton, had actually discovered the book at a local library. And it was he who brought it to everyone's attention there.

So I had a meeting with them, and that was very interesting. Damon and Affleck conveyed the substance of the script they were working on. They later were joined by Nicole Hullofsenter, who wrote a substantial part of the script, especially Mark Reed hired consultant on the project about medieval taxation or how money flowed or points of combat or armor things like that and i would i was working on that and then at the end of the year i saw a fairly final form of the script and sent in notes on that and then early in 2020 february i think it was just as they were about to start the shoot in france i saw another later version of the script and contributed some notes on that. This has got to be exciting. It's directed by Ridley Scott, of all people.

It's screenplay by Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, Nicole Holofcener. Holofcener, if I'm pronouncing that right. You've got the gentleman from the Star Wars series, Adam Driver, in here. And like I said, holy crap crap just everybody looks really medieval sometimes they do medieval type of films but then everyone looks like they've used too much skin cream and they look a little too fair you're like yeah you guys don't look like you grew up in the era of where everyone has really bad skin and i don't know everyone looks a little too feminine and you're just like i don't know those i think knights would have been a little bit more and these guys in

the film especially in the trailer i saw um just uh adam driver i was mentioned you in the green room me he really fits the role of the medieval thing but even ben affleck and matt damon they look like i wouldn't mess with them i would mess with them in goodwill hunting i would not mess with them in the typecasting of this movie it It is very exciting. And I was absolutely thrilled when it began to dawn on me a couple of years ago that Ridley Scott might be directing this film and that the casting just got better and better as the year went along with Matt Damon and Ben Affleck, of course, but then Adam Driver, whom you mentioned. And then finally, Jodie Comer, when she was cast as Marguerite, I had a hunch that this was going to be a very good casting.

And having seen the film just a week ago, my wife and I, and she's been involved, Peg has been involved in this project with me for years, helping with the research in Norm whole and the performances the spectacular visuals ridley scott is known for and they're certainly on full display here and also the period detail that historical detail and yes jody comer almost stole the show she is just marvelous wow and really scott what a director too and guys, I think, as in all the main characters, Oscar winners, the three males. I think Damon and Affleck are Oscar winners. Yeah. Adam Driver is at least a nominee.

I'm not quite sure. Yeah, he's done some incredible roles. But, yeah, this is going to be amazing. This is on my list now. I have Bond on Friday and then this thing next week. Well, true. So this should be awesome. Yeah, I love movies.

Yeah, I'm a man. I like masculine stuff. And I remember I grew up with the sort of love of this. But yeah, Ridley Scott, just what a director. And this is an all-star cast, so it should be freaking awesome. So the book was published 15 years ago. Was there anything new that came to light, changed your mind about it, any new things that came up as you did the research for the book and things?

That's a great question. During the research back in 2001, 2002, 2003, when I was taking trips to France and digging through the archives, there were a couple of things I found that were really amazing. I did find some small sorts of errors in published transcripts and things. And once I got to the original documents, which are written on early paper or even parchment, and often in these big books we were talking about in the green room, there were places where later editors had gotten things wrong and I was able to correct small errors. But the really big things that I found were, for example, a document that no one had ever cited in none of the scholarly literature

on this case. And there's been a lot. There's never been a book before mine, but there's been a lot of writing. And they'd never cited this document, which showed that Count Pierre had borrowed money from Jacques Legree, a rather substantial sum, around the year 1380 or maybe just before. And you had to wonder when you opened the book and found this thing that hadn't ever been really known, at least for a long time, whether that somehow influenced Count Pierre's decision in the rape case in Levy's favor. It crosses your mind. And then another thing I found, which was also quite important to how this alleged crime unfolds, as I described it earlier, Adam Lavelle apparently served at one time under Jean de Carouge as a squire in a military campaign. His name is on a list of squires. And that helped to explain why Lavelle was involved in the attack on Marguerite.

Laguee did not know her that well. He had met her just once at that party I described. And Louvel, however, probably had a prior acquaintance with Marguerite. And that might explain why Le Gris enlisted him to approach her first on that particular day. This is an interesting tie-in. There's lots of little moving parts here. That's pretty cool. Did you ever hear from any of the living relatives of the characters in your book? That's an interesting story. About a year after the book came out, and it hadn't been translated into French yet. That happened a bit later. I did get an email from someone with Le Gris in the last name saying that this was their ancestor. Wow. And as soon as I started reading this, I thought, oh, no. They're going to be very angry at me for dragging his name through the mud all over again.

They've spent centuries, you know, perhaps trying to live this. But no, it's actually a very friendly email saying this is a part of our family tradition. We tell the story at family reunions. Wow. And if you're ever in France, we'd like to meet you kind of thing. Wow. Sure enough, a year later, I was in Paris and had lunch at the home of this retired banker who was a descendant, he claimed, of Jacques Legree. And he didn't seem to have the angry at me at all for, in fact, if anything, I'm not sure he was proud of the story, but he was pleased that this story was still alive and out there.

So we had and I've had further correspondence. I've heard from other people with the Legree in their last name who think they are descended some way or somehow related. I've never heard, though, from the Karouge side, so I'm not sure how many of them are around, if at all. You may hear more now that movies come out. It's always those people that come out of the woodwork. But at least they didn't turn any duels offers where people are like, I will fight you to the last duel for this story true but it's interesting to read some of the other like 19th century people who claim to be descended

from lagree are quite concerned and concerned about the reputation of the family and have made vociferous arguments for his innocence which they think yeah he can go a lot of different ways yeah it's one person's word and all that stuff and yeah it's uh this is going to be interesting movie to watch i'm really excited to see it and yeah i'm honored we got a chance to have you on the show so how does it end no i'm just kidding i'm kidding i think i'm gonna dodge that question chris yeah you should you should dodge that question i i always do that right now i'll ask a novel so how does the book end and they're like are you serious and uh I'm like, I'm just kidding.

We can't give that away. But I don't know. It'll be interesting to see how it ends. And if you want to know more, you can order the book. Anything else you want to plug on the, and you can go see the movie too. Anything you want to plug on it, Eric, to tell us about? Oh, that's a good question. I do urge people to see the film. I think you will

be amazed by Ridley Scott's direction, the amazing performances of the cast, including Harriet Walter, who plays Nicole de Carouge, the mother-in-law. She does a remarkable job of that. And I think the film really does catch a lot of this era,

the brutality, the rules, the bizarre customs, and also a lot of really big themes, human themes, honor, revenge, courage, and adversity, and so forth. And again, the story of Mark Reed is an absolutely amazing one. But again, the book is available widely. We also have an audio version out. Robert Glenister, some years ago, when the book came out in Britain, the TV and movie actor Glenister very kindly did the BBC Book of the Week edition, which was like a five-part broadcast, 15 minutes a day of a kind of an abridged version of the book. And he very kindly came back to do the whole unabridged book about a year ago. And that's out now as an audio book available from audible and various other places and people really seem to like it and he is a wonderful reader and i'm so glad we

could get him to do the audio version of the whole i'm not kissing butt here but i can always tell i can usually tell watching a trailer i can be like yeah that movie's not gonna go i was like blown away especially when i saw the typecasting and i was like, Adam Driver. And then I saw him and I was like, okay, yeah. All right. This thing is done well. And yeah, I think it's going to be a great movie and I think it's gonna be awesome. So it should be good. And then you have two other books or one other book.

Well, I have a couple of scholarly books that we won't get into here. You mentioned one briefly at the, I think in the green room, the book of the heart, which is a sort of study of heart imagery. But there is another true crime story out there called In Which, and that came out in 2014. So that's a little newer. And that is about one of history's first detectives. It's another crime story this time set in Paris. And it takes place in 1407 when the Duke of Orléans, who is the king's brother,

and because the king is intermittently insane, is basically in charge of France. Louis, who's in charge of France, gets murdered one night. And it's up to this brave man of law named Guillaume, Guillaume de Tignanville, to solve this crime as quickly as possible, because France might descend into civil war without a leader. And so we have, amazingly, a 30- foot parchment scroll, which is a very rare thing containing his police, his police inquiry and all the evidence he gathered, the depositions by witnesses, an autopsy of the slain man, a very rare kind of document to have from this era. And it enabled me to write a very detailed account of how he solved this crime and what it led to in

the further history of France. Well, Once you become more popular after this movie, they'll probably do that one too. Who knows? It might be something that can turn into a series or something from this book, maybe, or a second movie. In fact, there's been a little bit of interest in a series, so we'll see where that goes. Someone should write a book.

I'm not telling you what to do, but that duel that was a long time ago with, was it Alexander Hamilton and Jefferson? Aaron Burr. Has anyone done a movie on that? I think I saw some TV shows, in the 70s or something.

I'm sure there are a ton of documentaries. I don't know if it's ever been, it could be a really good sort of conclusion, like in this story, to what was a long quarrel between those men and a lot of other things going on at that time in a pretty overheated political environment, not unlike today. But I don't know if it's ever been the subject of a full-length film. Maybe that's what we need to do to settle our political differences. You know who said that? Rudy Giuliani

back in January. He called for trial by combat. Trial by combat. Yeah. He called for trial by combat. That's the trial by combat. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That word comes up now and then. Okay. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. That's a, there you go. That was the setting. They got what they wanted. Wow. And yeah, I think maybe what we should do is we should have Mark Zuckerberg with a trial by combat against,

I don't know, all of us, maybe, maybe he can fight Jack at Twitter. I don't know, man. I'd hate to see that movie. One of the, one don't know, all of us, maybe, maybe you can fight Jack at Twitter. I don't know, man. One of the, one of the drawbacks,

of course, of trial by combat is that you can't, it's considered rather final. And if it's a duel to the death, there's a finality there that you have to reckon with. If neither of them wins or they mortally hurt each other, and they'd be fine with me. I don't know.

I don't hold either of them in high respect. So I think I'm a winner on both those sides. It's like when I watch other people in my Raiders conference that fight each other, I'm like, I don't care who. You can both lose for all I care as long as the Raiders win. Anyway, it's been wonderful to have you on the show, Eric. Thank you for coming by and sharing this stuff. And this is definitely on my movie list.

I'm going to go see that. I'm excited. I can go back to theaters. The coronavirus is on the down slope, evidently. Up here in Utah, we're doing pretty good. And the beautiful part is I live in a highly religious state, so I just go on Sunday. And then I can pretty much be alone in the theater watching the movie. So I'm going to catch my Bond.

I'm going to catch this movie, and this will be awesome. And I'll have so much testosterone over two weeks. I want to know what to do with myself. I'll have to go to the gym. Anyway, thank you for coming on. Give us your plugs so people can find you on the interweb. Thank you so much for having me, Chris. And people can find me at UCLA English Department's webpage, Eric Jager, and also on a brief article on Wikipedia. And there are a number of articles out there about this case, including Lapham's Quarterly and an upcoming article in the Times of London and a few other interviews that are on the web now. Yeah. And what a great movie too. The women are going to like it as well. It's got three

leading men that they're very popular with the gals out there. It's got good looking guys, good looking women, great director, great script. So there you go. You can't lose. Thank you for coming on the show. We certainly appreciate it, Eric. I love being here. you chris thank you pick up the last duel a true story of crime scandal and trial by combat you can find it wherever fine books are sold but just go to the places where the fine books are sold like don't go in any of those medieval alleyways because you might get anyway guys pick that book up go see the film put on your schedule go to fandango or wherever you uh order up your movies there's all these apps now that you can just reserve movies.

It's pretty cool. Also, go see the video version of this. You're going to want to see the cool helmet that he has in the back there that we talked about. And also go to goodreads.com for just Chris Voss. See what we're reading, reviewing over there. Also, my new book out that came out yesterday. You can also go to Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, all those places the show is at and see what we're doing over there. Thanks for tuning in.

Be good to each other. And we'll see you guys next time. So we're excited to announce my new book is coming out. It's called Beacons of Leadership, Inspiring Lessons of Success in Business and Innovation. It's going to be coming out on October 5th, 2021. And I'm really excited for you to get a chance to read this book. It's filled with a multitude of my insightful stories, lessons, my life, and experiences in leadership and character. I give you some of the secrets

from my CEO Entrepreneur Toolbox that I use to scale my business success, innovate, and build a multitude of companies. I've been a CEO for, what is it, like 33, 35 years now. We talk about leadership, the importance of leadership, how to become a great leader, and how anyone can become a great leader as well. So you can pre-order the book right now wherever fine books are sold. But the best thing to do on getting a pre-order deal is to go to beaconsofleadership.com. That's beaconsofleadership.com. On there, you can find several packages you can take advantage of in ordering the book. And for the same price of what you can get it from someplace else like Amazon, you can get all sorts of extra

goodies that we've taken and given away. Different collectors, limited edition, custom made numbered book plates that are going to be autographed by me. There's all sorts of other goodies that you can get when you buy the book from beacons of leadership dot com. So be sure to go there, check it out, or order the book wherever fine books are sold.