The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Leadership Process by Paul B. Thornton

Episode Date: December 2, 2022

The Leadership Process by Paul B. Thornton Leadership is a process. There are four steps that you need to follow to achieve your vision. -Diagnose the Situation -Identify Opportunities -Present Your Message -Plan and Implement Perfecting each step will definitely help you be a more effective and impactful leader. You will discover many practical and useful ideas in this book. Paul B. Thornton has extensive knowledge and experience in the field of leadership.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, I'm Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Hey, we're coming here with a great podcast. We certainly appreciate you guys tuning in. We have an amazing business author and prolific business author. He's offered

five amazing books on leadership, business organization, and everything else, and how to be really effective at being a leader. And of course, that's really kind of up my vein, given I've written about leadership. And leadership you know, leadership is really important. It's one of those traits that a lot of people forget these days. So welcome to the show, folks. I'm Chris Voss, your host, as always, of The Chris Voss Show. Be sure to refer the show to your family, friends, relatives, anybody you meet on the street. When you just meet on the street, just grab people by the arm gently and say,

have you heard of our Lord and Savior, the Chris Voss Show? No, don't do that. We don't want to turn ourselves into a cult. We just like you to listen to the show. We don't want to do anything where we have to tithe you people and charge you money. It's free. And most cults aren't free from last time I checked. So we don't want to turn the Chris Voss Show into a cult. But if you want to believe in it, if you want to believe in the miracle of helping people be better and make them smarter, that's kind of what we're all about. We're kind of an anti-Dunning Kruger sort of educational entertainment podcast where we make you better and smarter than you already are. And when we do that, we're we're, uh, we're, uh, when we do that,

more interesting and more sexy, you know, they, they, there's a saying, and I'm not sure who made it up, probably some guy named me, uh, that if you're smarter, you're sexier. So those of you who have the wives ignoring you or girlfriends, you know, maybe if you're smarter, they'll be like, Hey, that dude's kind of hot. I don't know, man. I'm just making stuff up at this point. It looks like my guest will be coming to the show shortly here. So we'll have him on. In the meantime, go to youtube.com, 4chesschrisfoss, goodreads.com, 4chesschrisfoss, LinkedIn, 4chesschrisfoss, all those crazy places on the internet. And it looks like our guest dropped off the show, so he's probably, the internet gods are not shining kindly upon him today.

It's Tuesday. I think that's on the horoscope, isn't it? Isn't that one of the tarot card readings that we did this morning, that the internet gods are not being happy today? There's snow. So if you can't tell that I'm stalling yet to see him, he'll show up again. Uh, I am stalling, but he was in the green room when we entered the show and, uh, he did drop out in the green room once. So, uh, you know, we all have these internet days.

It's what the internet's for. It's a test of whether you can log on or not. I've been used to that. If you're used to the AOL days where you used to hear the, you used to log on, sometimes you'd have to log on like 15 times. You'd go, and then you'd hear the, and log on to AOL. All right, I'm going to bring him in the show. He's back again. And let's see if the Internet gods can shine kindly on our little interview here with Paul Thornton. Paul, welcome back to the show.

How are you? Thank you, Chris. I'm good. Good to be back. There you go. Good to be back. I've been stalling a little bit on the launch of the show, and hopefully all of our Internets will work for it. So, Paul, we've got you on the show.

We're going to be talking about your amazing book, The Leadership Process, that came out July 28th, 2022. And Paul B. Thornton is on the show with us today. He's the author of, as I mentioned before, about five books on leadership, business organization. So this is going to be a great discussion, especially for our LinkedIn group over there and our LinkedIn people, because they love leadership and they love talking about business. Paul, for the last 40 years, has been a student and teacher of management and leadership concepts. As a student, he has conducted interviews and experiments, observed people in various management and leadership roles, and read widely on the subject. He has also learned by performing the roles of manager and leader as a college hockey coach, professor, human resources, executive coach, and parent.

You learn a lot as a parent, actually, about leadership. Parents are leaders. I don't think most parents, I don't know what most parents think, but they are leaders. You're really leading somebody. Well, however you lead them makes a difference on what sort of kid you send in our community. The rest of us have been put up with. As a teacher, he's written articles and books, conducted college class seminars, presented speeches, and participated in podcasts, done executive coaching,

and he's conducted management leadership programs for UMass Medical School, Mercy Health Systems, Kuwait Oil Corporations, United Technology Corporations, and Duck Co. Tenant, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. Welcome to the show, Paul. How are you? Thank you. I'm good. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for coming on. We certainly appreciate you. You ducked out on us there after we entered the show in the green room. So I was doing the big stall process at the beginning and it seems to have worked so we pulled it off and hopefully no one's the wiser although i did tell them that's what i was up to so yeah we tend to let the audience in on the joke around here so welcome the show my friend uh congratulations on the new book you've got five of them out we're going to talk about them but uh give us your dot com so people can find you on the interwebages in the sky. I don't actually have a.com.

I am active on LinkedIn, and my email address is pbthawnton74 at gmail.com. There you go. And am I pronouncing your last name correctly? Thawnton. Thawnton. I've been saying Thawnton, haven't I? Yeah. Thawnton. It's close enough. All right. Well, Thawnton, Paul B. Thawnton. Thornton. I've been saying Thornton, haven't I? Yeah. Thornton.

It's close enough. All right. Well, Thornton, Paul B. Thornton is on the show with us today. So, Paul, what motivated you to write this latest book that you came out with, the one that is entitled The Leadership Process? Well, I've always been interested in the topic of leadership. And as I've said, as you said, I've done a lot of studying of it. And, you know, my whole life I've been trying to figure out what is it that makes a great leader. And the more I look into it, the more research I do, I keep writing about it. Writing helps me think about it more clearly. And, you know, it's kind of a hobby. I keep producing these books and I keep looking for that perfect way to articulate what a great leader does and what makes them so special. So give us an overview of what you've encased in this book. Basically, you know, there's a lot of books on leadership, and this one really focuses in on that it's really a process.

There's basically four steps that leaders need to follow. The first one is to diagnose the current situation, you know, kind of get a handle of what's currently going on, what's working, what's not working, what are people's strengths and weaknesses, things like that. You got to kind of get a baseline of where are we today before we try to improve it. So that's step one. Step two is figuring out how can we improve? You know, what can we do better? I'm sure you think about your show. What can you do better after a podcast? No, we think about what we can do worse.

Well, you know what I mean. Yeah, I mean. Always searching for that new approach, that new question, that new follow-up, whatever it might be that's going to make your show better. So leaders are kind of doing the same thing. You know, what's going to make my team, my organization, my department better? And they might come up with many, but they got to boil it down to what are the one or two things you're going to pursue that you're going to work on to make it better.

Number three step in the process is putting your message together, packaging your message. You have to convince a certain number of people that your idea has merit, that it will work, it will be an improvement, et cetera. I just lead by fiat. I just force everyone to do what I say. Well, if you have position power, you can do that. But they may be doing it because they are compelled to do it, not because they're highly motivated to do it. Don't explain the pitchforks and stuff that's outside my door every day. The angry villagers are always out there going, enough with the tyranny.

And I'm like, you get paychecks every week. What do you want it's kind of like what we see what's happening in china today you know people have just reached the threshold enough is enough and you know they reach the breaking point so be careful your employees may be getting close to that breaking point well i i just keep spraying water on the on the torches and that seems to be helping but I'm not sure about the pitchforks. There you go. There's that.

And then the fourth step in the process is coming up with a plan of how you're going to implement the changes to make things better. It sounds like a lot of work. It's pretty simple. It's pretty basic. But each step is important, and each step builds on the preceding steps. So I think it kind of all hangs together. And I think that the good leaders are good at each of those steps. And leading for me anyway, is implementing change. It's not just talking about it, but it's really implementing it. It's making something better. It's improving something. You go ahead. Do you see, these are great tips because you really need to focus as a leader. It's really, it's really, you've got these four great tips. And when, as a leader, it can be really hard,

especially if you're an ADH leader, which a lot of us are. We call it the CEO. It's called the CEO disease. I don't call it that. That was named by, I'm not sure who named it that, but it's been documented in several articles. But, you know, we have ADHD sometimes, and we're a bit mad. And so we tend to scattershot sometimes. And so it's good to have, like you say, these four things to hone down leadership because you, you, as an entrepreneur,

as a CEO, you, you try and take on everything if you can. And, and you can't, you just can't. There's a reason delegation is there. There's a reason that you've got to focus in on what you can do.

You know, people are looking to you to be the leader and you've got to deliver or else you won't be the leader for very long, which is why those pitchforks are at my door. They have some sort of intent. I'm not sure what it is. I think that's very true. I think it's easy to get very scattered today. You can be into 28 different things and you're pursuing all sorts of things and you lose your focus because you're so scattered. A process helps you kind of define what are the steps I need to take to get to the end goal. You know, it gives you some structure.

It gives you some a plan or a step by step-step approach you can follow. So I think it is important. Most definitely. You know, I used to have this thing in my business where I would pull the, who was the basketball coach, the great basketball coach? Coach Perry? He would always, his code was the basics. He had like, I think he had like theramid or the 12 Principles of Leadership.

Oh, John Wooden? John Wooden. Yeah. And I think that was him. And he would always get back to the basics. So he would say to people, some guy would be going on about how he was the – he used to be shooting free throws from the from the three-point line and you know doing all sorts of crazy layups he'd be like hey whoa whoa calm down

we want you you know why don't you just show us how you can do your free throws and stuff and so that was kind of his motive was get back to basics and i would find that as a leader that what i do is i'd get off the basics and then you know we'd, I'd be like, hey, how come we're not making so much money this month? How come things are, you know, and sometimes I tried to fancy it up a little too much. You know, I try to make things, you know, I'd be like, hey, let's tweak this and make it all pretty and special and flowery and different. And it's like, no, man, just cut that back down to the basics. And that would happen to me so many times. And so I had this rule. I took a role from, what was it? The Russian movie, The Red October, where you always do a crazy Ivan,

you check your six and you go back and go, what did we mess with that screwed everything up? And you go back to basics. So that was kind of my way of doing that. But yeah, every leader can get off par, get off base. It's easy if we don't stay focused. Every year when I watch the Super Bowl, invariably they talk to the winning coach and he says, we did the basics well. Yeah. We get back to the basics, you know. So there's a lot to be said for that. There is. In fact, you remind me of a time when recently when Tom Brady, it was a couple of Super Bowls wins ago.

I mean, the guy is like 50, I think, or something. But there was one game a while ago where he defied a precedent in NBA history, or not NBA, NFL history, where they came back from a deficit at halftime that no team has ever come back from. Everyone's sitting around going, this game's over because no one's ever done this before. No one's ever come back. And he did, and he won. He killed it.

And it seemed to me when I watched the game, he just kept focusing on the basics. He just kept his head down. He kept focusing on what they needed to do. Instead of getting lost like a lot of people do that you see in the Super Bowl, you know, because it is an overwhelming thing, you would see they just kind of kept their head down and they kept focusing on just, okay, let's chew the elephant,

one play at a time, let's keep the basics. And by doing that, maybe we'll win. And they did. And that was what's so extraordinary about that game. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. The basics are very important. And a lot of these things are not as complicated as we sometimes make them out to be.

And if you do the basics well, there's a good chance you're going to be successful. Yeah. It's going to make all the difference in the world when it comes down to it because that just makes all the difference in the world. So let's touch on some of your other books. Anything else you want to tease out we didn't cover on the leadership process? We're going to try and cram all five of your books in here. I think that's good on that one.

The one I'm currently working on is called Leadership Styles. And there's a lot of books out there that talk about many styles, seven, eight, nine, 10 different styles that leaders use. I boil it down to three basic styles. Again, getting back to the basics. One is directing. second one is discussing, and the third one is delegating, the three Ds. And I think there are times when a leader, a parent, a coach, a podcaster, doesn't matter. You use these styles all the time.

You know, there's times when you have to tell people or direct people what to do, how to do it, when to have it done by. There's other times when you want to have a discussion. You want to get people's ideas and input, you know, their thoughts and what they might suggest for a show or a program or whatever it might be. Parents have discussions with their kids. As the kids get older, they get them involved in what their goals are, what do they want to achieve, et cetera, et cetera. And then when the child gets even a little bit older, you delegate more. You want them running their own life. You want them

making decisions, taking responsibility, getting things done according to the way they think it should be done. So those three styles, I think, are critical. You use them every day. It doesn't matter. Parents, coaches, teachers, we all use them day in and day out. I'm a former manager and I use those styles every single day. As a matter of fact, in the same meeting, I'd use all three styles. So very important. And the book highlights, I have a number of practitioners, and they vary from athletic coaches to teachers to managers. I have a fire chief in there. Oh. And they all talk about how they use the three styles in doing their job.

That's awesome, man. My bet is if I observed you for a couple days doing your day-to-day activities, I would see you at times directing and at other times discussing and thirdly at other times delegating to staff members to get certain things done. Does that include the yelling, the yelling and screaming at people? Or sometimes yelling and screaming I do at the computer? I'm glad you brought that up because when we talk about directing, it has a connotation that we're yelling and screaming and we're condescending. No, it doesn't mean that. Damn. Directing means you're just being straightforward

and clear on what you want done, how you want it done, and when you want it done by. Oh, okay. You can be a very nice person and still be directing. You know, that's one thing you deal with as a leader is sometimes you ask yourself, is my vision clear? Do people understand it? Am I communicating effectively? I've had times where I've given people instruction to do things as a leader and uh i've realized later when they failed at it the failure was mine i didn't communicate it i wasn't clear enough on on what i did and it becomes one of

those things where you know it was that old exercise you would do in school where you you would go around the room and telephone yeah you tell someone what story and then they would tell the next person a story and in the meantime the story gets combobulated the instructions get combobulated and then by the end no one knows what the hell you're talking about and uh so that's really that's really important uh for all that there um and uh yeah it makes all the difference in the world. Let's talk about, let's touch on all your books. I was going to kind of tag all your books if you like.

Let's talk about, I think the latest book for you was in October of 2021. Is Your Organization Aligns, the title of the book. Achieving organizational alignment is a thing of beauty. Let's talk about this one and touch on this one. What's the secret sauce to help teams and organizations perform at their best? Yeah, alignment is a topic that there hasn't really been a lot of books written about it. I think it's a very important topic. Alignment is where all of the parts and pieces of the organization are working together in support

of the strategy. I'm a big believer that the senior leaders need to get the strategy right. How are we going to compete and win in the marketplace? And they've got to get the values right. How are we going to work together? What values are we going to follow day to day, week to week? So the senior leaders need to get those two things right. If they don't, the team, the organization, I think, is in trouble. Definitely. right. If they don't, the team, the organization, I think is in trouble. Beyond that, they need to get then all of the pieces, the systems and the people and the skill set and the reward and

recognition programs and all that stuff needs to support the strategy. And if you're not aligned, you're not performing at an optimal level. So the book gets into how does the senior leaders of a company create an aligned organization where everything fits together, supports the strategy, and leads to the most effective performance that you can, you know, achieve. When you watch like a pit crew or a college marching band or a high performing athletic team, you know, you see perfection where everything is working perfectly. It's great coordination. Everybody's in sync. Everybody's focused. It is. I think it's a thing of beauty. When we watch like a college marching band, it's like, oh my God, they're incredible. Or an athletic team that when we say they're in the flow, you know, they're performing at such a high level. It's like, oh, my God, I can't believe how great they are, you know? And if we can use that same analogy to a business, if we can get everyone aligned and focused

on the same vision, the same values, you know, they have the right skills, it's really incredible to see that team, that group, that organization perform. There you go. Alignment's really important because, you know, everyone's going in 50 different directions. Yeah. That doesn't work well. You can't win a war. You can't do battle, you know, in the business sense of it, you know, if everybody in the Army goes 50 different directions.

In fact, that's a great way to lose. So there you go. The book before that, Leadership Case Studies, useful for teachers and seminar leaders. I know there's a lot of people that do these workshops, live workshops and online workshops and stuff. Would that help them as well? Yes. I was a college teacher for 20 plus years, and I used a lot of my own case studies and role plays and things like that that I created. And when I retired, it was kind of like I got all this material. I didn't want it to go to waste. I think there's some really good stuff in there.

So I put that together in a book, hoping that some other college teachers and high school teachers, for that matter, or seminar leaders would want to check out these case studies and possibly use them in some of their seminars and workshops. You know, and I think some have done that and some have found them very useful. And as a teacher, I was always looking for good case studies that made the point that I was trying to get across to the students. So it's one of those things you're always looking for the, you know, right amount of complexity and the right amount of complexity and the right amount of detail and the right focus and all that so it's hard to be it's hard to be a teacher my mom was a teacher for about 20 years yeah uh and of course i think she was teaching kids at four

five and six so that was a that was a whole new animal of trying. Those kids are pretty rambunctious, as they should be at that age. But trying to keep them focused makes all the difference. So you help teach teachers and seminar leaders how to keep people engaged, how to get them, how to do stuff. I like the role play exercise in case studies. In fact, years ago when I used to be a training facility manager, I,

I did a lot of that with, with, we would do role play. We'd go around the room and that was a lot of our leadership training would be about not leadership, but it was training, but it was role playing, you know,

teaching people the job and it wasn't just barking at people and then going, well, go do your job. We would role-play with them and make sure they knew how to do what they were doing. And then we'd critique them. So there was that. Yeah, I think role-playing makes it very real or a lot realer than just talking about it. So I used to be a trainer at a company as well. And we did a lot of role playing. And the participants didn't particularly like being in role plays, but it really brought the skill or the point you're trying to make home.

And it really showed whether they could do it or not. You know, and I think it's a very good learning tool. Definitely. Definitely. Most definitely. Let's touch on another one of your books here. Let me go back to my list that I had up. There is the original book.

This is the one you wrote. This is your first book, I believe, Leadership Off the Wall in 2010. Let's chat about this book. What was the encasement of this book? Well, I worked at a pretty big company and I would visit a lot of various managers. And as I would go into their office, I would find a quote of some sort on their office wall. And the quotes often had to do with management and leadership ideas. And I would often ask them, you know, what's that quote mean to you? Why do you have it?

How important is it, et cetera? So it got me thinking that, you know, maybe a collection of these put in a book with some of the quotes from the people that have them on their office wall would be, you know, kind of interesting and insightful. So I started collecting these over the years, and I also found some famous people that had quotes on their office wall, and I did put it together. So it highlights, I forget the exact number, but it's some of the more famous quotes and some not so famous quotes that people have that they follow and use to make themselves a better leader. That's kind of the gist of it. There you go. There you go.

Do you have any quotes on your office wall? There's a bunch I have in my head. In your head. And in your book, I noticed you have some W. Clement Stone quotes. Yeah. And his story about becoming a shoe sign boy and then becoming a multimillionaire. And he credits his success to three words, do it now. Yeah.

That's always a good one. There's a, you know, get back to basics is that one quote that i can think of i can't think of any in the top of my head i'm just i'm just totally in the in the show right now uh but you bill bill belichick on new england patriots coach i mean he his quote about do your job i, he's constantly telling his players, do your job. That's a good example of, you know, guiding principle that it's simple, it's clear, it's a good reminder. Don't worry about the 28 other things that, you know, people are talking about.

Just do your job and keep it simple. You know, there's a quote right there, the KISS technique. Keep it simple, stupid. And there's one that I like from W. Clement Stone. I thought I saw it in my pull-up here. But John B. D. Clement Stone, he's really underrated as a motivational coach, at least in, like, today's world. It seems like he's gotten lost. When I,

when I was coming up in the seventies, my father had a lot of books with W. Clement stone. I think there was the one with him and Napoleon Hill as well. And so those, those really helped as well. And yeah, those,

those can make all the difference in the world. Definitely. Definitely. So you've written just a wonderful amount of books here over the past few years. And it's just amazing what sort of stuff you do. And you've got the fifth one coming out. So, you know, leadership is really important. Do you feel like leadership is underestimated or underrated or people don't

give enough value these days? Well, I think to be a really good leader is a lifelong journey. I think it's something you got to keep working at. And I think to influence and inspire people is challenging. I think people are being pulled in a lot of different directions these days. It's a complex and confusing world out there. So getting people's attention with your ideas and having ideas that they feel are relevant and meaningful, you know, it's challenging. So to be an effective leader takes a lot of work and effort. And like a lot of things, you know, some days are good. You have some successes and other days it's like, what was I thinking? I can't believe I thought this would work and you know, blah, blah, blah. And it doesn't go so well, but you got to pull yourself up and you got to think about, okay,

what do I have to face tomorrow? And what are my goals and what am I going to do to make a difference? And how am I going to add value? Definitely. You got to keep focused. You can't, you know, I learned a long time ago, I've talked about this on the show, that it's, you reach a point where there's so many millions of things you need to be doing every day. Like every day when I wake up, there's probably 500 things I'd like to do today or there should be doing, or maybe, maybe that I'd like to be doing. I think that's probably a better term. uh, you know, I just can't get to them all. I mean, if I can get five to six good, solid things done in a day, that's a darn good day. Yeah. And so you, you, like you talked about in your first book, you have to focus, you have to focus on what you need to achieve, what you can achieve and, uh, and, and what's, what's the top things on all of this. And so that can make all the difference. And so there you go.

These have been really great. I mean, I think, do people need to teach more about leadership? Is leadership becoming a lost art? Do you find that most leaders and CEOs today, you know, the reason I ask you this question, and I'm kind of pushing it a bit, is I'll ask people what their leadership style is or what are some aspects they use to lead with. And I kind of get like a quiet for a second because they really don't think about it. They're kind of on autopilot. And maybe that's really what great leaders do. I mean, I always had a formula I used, what I called my toolbox, that I always went to for leadership, especially in crunch times.

But it seems to me like a lot of people, CEOs are on autopilot. They don't really consciously think about how am I leading? And do you see a lot of that in leaders? And is that an impact that we need to spend more time focusing on? Well, I think we live in a day and age where we're action oriented. It's what am I going to do next? And your to do list is so long that really you can't even take time to think. So the focus is more on doing stuff. And I think part of being a good leader requires reflection, you know, quiet time, thinking about how did I handle that? What could I have done differently? If I had that same situation again, what would I do? Blah, blah, blah. So I think the reflecting part is important to kind of come up with your leadership beliefs, philosophy, frame of reference, whatever you want to call it. do reflect and they do put the pieces together so they have a coherent view of how they're going to, you know, make themselves, make their points known, make their big ideas stand out,

make their points, et cetera. It's really interesting to me. And I was kind of surprised when I wrote in my book about how, you parents are leaders too like every just about anybody can be a leader in emergency situations leaders emerge um and we all kind of we all are kind of leaders in our life that we affect other people and and and I I think is the people we need to think about more about how we affect other people uh and all that good stuff it makes makes all the difference in the world. So, you know, that can make all the difference in being a great leader. Anything more you want to touch on or round out as we go out? Well, I think leadership is a very important job.

I think leaders make a big difference. And as we said, we talked about before, leadership is part of a lot of different people's roles as a parent, teacher, coach, team leader. You know, all of these things require leadership. You're influencing people, you're creating a vision, you're doing things to inspire people, to get them going in a certain direction, you're listening to their ideas, you're building on their ideas, you got to be a good delegator, you got to be a good coach. You got to be able to give good feedback. There's a lot to it. And that's why I say becoming a really good leader is a long-term journey. And it's something you got to commit yourself to and you got to keep working at

and keep evaluating how you're doing. And it's often good to have a coach or someone that you can bounce ideas off to keep you going in the right direction. So buy all my books and they'll help you be a more effective and more efficient leader. But really, I would recommend the book that's coming out soon is The Leadership Styles. I think that could be a big help to anyone who wants to become a better leader. There you go. I mean, it can make all the difference in the world when it comes down to all of that. I've been on a journey of leadership for all my life, 35 years of being an entrepreneur, and I probably will always be on that journey.

I don't think it's, you know, it's just one of those things. It's kind of like the show. You can never get fully perfect in that. You're just constantly on the journey trying to get that done and trying to, you know, do all of that. I mean, it's just, it's a lead, a true leader is probably always learning. Is that correct? Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. We're always learning, always trying to make ourselves better and everything else. This has been pretty insightful, Paul. Definitely a lot of good

stuff in the things. Uh, give us where you want people to follow you on the interwebs and get to know you better, please. Well, as I said, i'm very active on linkedin i try to publish uh an article or quote or some message almost every day so you can find my site on linkedin my email address is is pbthornton, T-H-O-R-N-T-O-N, 74 at gmail.com. My books are available at Amazon. They're very inexpensive. They're like $6.99, I think, or less. And the electronic ones are even less than that. So it's not a big investment.

But it's an important investment to become a better leader. It's something you got to keep working at and studying and trying things out and seeing what works. Definitely. And reading your books and getting the knowledge down, I mean, it's so important to learn from leaders and to really think about mentally about being a leader. Like I say, I, I meet so many people that are just kind of on autopilot and it's not to mean that they fail as a leader because they're on autopilot. They just, they just, they're probably missing some things that they don't realize they're missing because they're, they're not focusing on, okay, what works for me? Like I said, I always had the toolbox. So I could always come

back to, hey, if things aren't working, what's going on? What's the toolbox element here of why this isn't working and stuff? And that was really important to me on being able to get things done. So people should check you out, read the books on the interwebs. Order them up on Amazon or wherever fine books are sold. Grab the newest one, The Leadership Process, that July 28th, 2022. And all that good stuff. And stay tuned for your next book. Thanks, Manas, for tuning in.

Go to goodreads.com, Fortuness Chris Voss. Go to youtube.com, Fortuness Chris Voss. Go to youtube.com, Fortuness Chris Voss. Go to all the crazy places on the internet where you can find the Chris Voss Show. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks, Paul, for being here. Thanks, Chris, for having me. I enjoyed it. There you go.

Tune in next time, folks, and be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time. Thanks.