The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Leadership Shift: How to Lead Successful Transformations in the New Normal by Stuart Andrews

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

The Leadership Shift: How to Lead Successful Transformations in the New Normal by Stuart Andrews https://amzn.to/3VRGIhI Become a better business leader and transform your business with this practical guide on how to orchestrate transformational change! Are you in a business leadership position? Have you been charged with the task of creating change in your organization? Leaders today face complex challenges and must adapt now more than ever. Learn business leadership from an official member of Forbes Coaches Council, which includes world-class executives and senior-level executives in the coaching industry. Author, Stuart Andrews, was vetted and selected by the Forbes review committee based on his diversity and experience. The Leadership Shift offers a practical guide to leaders and executives responsible for orchestrating change and transformation. The pace of change is unrelenting, and customers expect more than ever before. The new normal is the ultimate test for those in leadership roles and only the fittest and most innovative will survive. Don't miss your opportunity for ultimate business transformation and order your copy of The Leadership Shift, today! What others say: "The content is incredibly robust.” “Great insights, can be used by leaders in many ways depending on their needs.” - Keith Meier, Chief Operating Officer of Assurant (A Fortune 500 Company)

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the big show, my family and friends. It's so wonderful to see you all.

Thanks for coming by. Be sure to always refer to the show to your family, friends, and relatives. Go to Goodreads.com, 4ChestCrispFoss, YouTube.com, 4ChestCrispFoss, the big LinkedIn newsletter. That thing is killing it over there. Love it. It goes out every weekday. It has all the smartest brainiac stuff on it,

the smartest people on the show that we choose. Also, there's the big 130,000 group over there. And follow the new AI podcast, AI at chrisfoss.com and or AI chrisfoss.com and the leadership podcast as well. Today, we have an amazing leadership discovery and topics we're going to be talking about today. CEOs, all the things that's going on in the world, and all that good stuff. Stuart Anders is on the show with us today. His book was The Leadership Shift, How to Lead Successful Transformations in the New Normal. And this just came out April 18th, 2022. And it's got the Forbes stamp of approval. You may have heard of Forbes Magazine. Yeah, it's got the Forbes stamp of approval. We'll get into what that's all about,

et cetera, et cetera. But in the meantime, a little about him. Stuart Andrews is a trusted advisor to management teams and executive boards with over 20 years of experience leading large scale transformations and serves an executive coach. He understands the skill set required for leaders of today to navigate under resourcing, unrealistic timelines, and the constant battle to get things done. He's helped numerous leaders with their complex transformations and operating model transitions. With his background on the ground and foresight, he partners with clients to help them grow at an individual and organizational level. Welcome to the show, Stuart.

How are you? Great. Thanks so much for the intro, Chris. Appreciate it. It's wonderful to have you. Give us your.com so people can find you on the interwebs. Yeah, it's just simply StuartAndrews.me. There you go.

And so, Stuart, tell us about your book. Why did you motivate us to write this book? Yeah, thanks for the question, Chris. I think looking back and sort of going through the process of managing these large-scale transformations, a lot of lessons learned, and I thought how best to share it with a lot of leaders today that are looking for insights around, you know, what to do and what not to do. And what are the things that we should be thinking about in order to build a highly engaged workforce and drive a competitive advantage? And I thought to, you know, package it all up and put it into a book. And that's what we have today. There you go.

Well, awesome sauce. So tell us a little bit about your origin story. Where'd you grow up, your life, what kind of shaped you and brought you into this field of talking about leadership and advising companies? Yeah, awesome. I actually started off as a computer scientist, so, you know, programming, sitting behind a computer screen. But it didn't take me long to discover that I enjoyed working with people more than I did with computers. And so I moved into business analysis, project management, program management, and transformational roles. You know, I grew up here in Australia and absolutely love it.

Yeah. Yeah, there you go. So, you know, what is it, what are some of the traits that you think leaders need to have in today's world? I think it's important to be very curious and empathetic throughout the process. So I talk a lot about moving from empathy to now compassionate leadership, so really understanding a 360-degree view of the person that you're dealing with, so what's going on in their life, what's happening in their own personal situations, to really be able to build and help them, you know, drive to the results that you're,

you know, you're moving towards. So I think it's, yeah, I think it's important that leaders are not directive and more attuned to listening to, you know, the opinions of highly skilled individuals that they've brought into their organization. Definitely. I mean, you know, the one thing I learned over the years as a CEO is I don't have all the answers and I need people to help me find the answers. I need people to, to, to, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm a collector of great ideas and stories and, uh, but you know, sometimes I don't have all the answers and, and sometimes there's that one guy that you'll ask, Hey, what do you think about this?

And they're like, yeah. And one thing I've been really good at over the course of my career is being able to recognize the good idea when it comes. And so I'll pull people and some guy will hit it. And I've been sitting there dialing the safe, trying to see how to unlock whatever the issue is. And I'll talk to a guy and he's got just an angle on the thought. And I'll be like, that's the idea right there. And I've done that so many times, my finger usually comes out and goes, that's the idea. And I'm like, you just saved my butt.

You have the idea. And so being able to pull and not think that you are the center of the universe when it comes to good ideas it's really important when you say yeah yeah exactly i mean you you spend a lot of time and effort to hiring highly skilled individuals so it's important to you know take their opinions and listen to what they have to say yeah because i mean why bother hiring smart people if you're the smartest guy or if you think you're the smartest guy in the room? And if you think you are, I can tell you aren't. Right off the top, that's the first sign that you're not the smartest people in the room.

So tease us out a little bit of the book. What sort of things do you have in there? You've got the Forbes Coaches Council has given its endorsement. Tell us a little bit about some of the tease-outs in that book. Yeah, sure. Look, I think maybe if we just set the scene in terms of how the book is structured. So it really looks to help executives ask the right questions, right, which is what we're talking about.

So asking more than telling and then moving into ultimately how do we solve the right problems and focus on those those areas that are going to give us the biggest bang for buck and then encouraging the successful execution right with the strategic use of teams so you know we need to look at our teams not as a an individual's not as a one-stop, you know, period in time, but look at how we can continue the growth and build them up and look at how that growth transforms the organisation over time. And so, you know, a lot of the time leaders will get stuck with individuals that come and go for, you know,

a quick project, for example. But it's about how do you take all the learning for, you know, a quick project, for example. But it's about how do you take all the learnings, the insights, the IP that's developed over that time and then put that through an innovation hub and help that organisation continue growing. And then ultimately it wraps up with sort of looking at the direction on making how this vision real, right? So how do you really use, you know, the ideas and all the inputs that you have to get to your vision, right? To realize it.

Hi, folks. Chris Voss here with a little station break. Hope you're enjoying the show so far. We'll resume here in a second. I'd like to invite you to come to my coaching, speaking, and training courses website. You can also see our new podcast over there at chrisvossleadershipinstitute.com. Over there, you can find all the different stuff that we do for speaking engagements if you'd like to hire me, training courses that we offer, and coaching for leadership, management, entrepreneurism, podcasting, corporate stuff.

With over 35 years of experience in business and running companies as a CEO, I think I can offer a wonderful breadth of information and knowledge to you or anyone that you want to invite me to for your company. Thanks for tuning in. We certainly appreciate you listening to the show. And be sure to check out chrisfossleadershipinstitute.com. Now back to the show. There you go. You know, so a lot of it comes down to execution then as well. I mean, not only do you have to have the right ideas, you have to have the right plan, you've got to be able to execute it. What struggles

do you see leaders suffering with today where they're where they're trying to figure things out any events in the marketplace and stuff what do you what do you see going on that leaders are constantly struggling with now or struggling with i think i think that's a that's a very um it's a great question chris and it and it differs from you know conversations that i have with startups and scale-ups to enterprise level right so you know at the bottom end of you know town where you're still sort of setting up shop or you're in the early phases it could be a number of factors it could be just simply lack of governance right lack of maturity lack of being able to bring in the right expertise

to help you define your transformational journey. At the top end, you actually have all the governance, you have a lot of maturity, but now you're getting caught up in a lot of bureaucracy and you're getting caught up into delays because there's so much silos and then the biggest struggle turns into alignment issues, right? How do I align this person? How do I spend time?

What I call sponsorship issues, right? How do I align this person? How do I spend time? What I call sponsorship coalition, right? So how do you bring the parties together to sponsor, you know, tens of millions of dollars worth of transformation, right? So there's a lot of alignment work that needs to take place. Usually I find that KPIs and all sorts of triggers are all in conflict. So, you know, when you're introducing a change, then you've got, you know, a sales KPI is completely out of whack from customer service KPI. So people are contending on resourcing and budgets and, you know,

they're all sort of very protective of their areas because that's what they're tied to in terms of their outcomes. Yeah. It just depends on who you're talking to. Yeah. And how do you define leaders? I mean, are leaders just CEOs? Or how do you define leaders as to where they are in different organizations? I think leaders ultimately come down to their ability to influence others in a positive way, right? So, you know, you don't necessarily have to be or have the title of CEO or a C-suite title to be a leader, right?

So you can be a great manager of a small team and people identify with you as an amazing leader because you're building them up, you're helping them grow, you're listening to them, you're very compassionate with them, but also equally performance driven. So if you're able to inspire these people to drive positive change in their own individual lives, but also for the best of the organization, then you're doing what a leader should be doing. You know, I love that word inspire that you use. To me, a lot of leadership is inspiration because it's heart and mind capturing. It's getting people to go. It's a leader that can inspire people in their hearts and minds and get them believing in their leadership or their vision is, to me, the money when it comes to leadership. Because you can lead all you want.

You can send out PR notices saying, oh, we're going to all just increase revenue this uh this quarter people are just like what and i give a shit about that why yeah um you know you can you can think you're leading let's put it that way because to me bossing people around as you might call it or you know like my my parents my parents you know i'm not knocking my parents all parents do it but you know my parents would be like, clean your room. And you're like, I don't know what's in it for me. You know, well, you're going to get spanked. I mean, it was kind of a fear-based sort of thing.

Well, you can't really run that way in an organization. I mean, you can try. Well, you get fired if you don't do your job. But people, I think, aspire to leaders. I mean, we see that through all areas of life. I mean, whether it's religious leaders or political leaders or maybe somebody who likes a coach on TikTok or, you know, an author like yourself. You know, they're looking for, I think, leadership. And what they're looking for is someone who's a visionary and someone who can inspire them, like you said, that heart and mind and can really grasp a hold of them where they can not only intellectually get behind an idea, but they can be passionate about it. Does that sound like a good analogy?

Yeah, completely agree, Chris. And I think you touched on a very important word, which is fear. A lot of the time you see fear and you can see the impacts of what it has to communication and the breakdown of that communication. So it's very important for leaders to build a foundation of trust that has to be absolutely the foundation of any organisation. And transparency follows suit, right? So you want that communication to be open. You don't want to have anyone, you know, fearing for their lives, you know, that I can't talk about this or I can't message this data up because, you know, I'm going to get shot down, right?

So the moment that happens, that's probably the start of all the issues in an organisation because everyone starts to become very protective around what it is that's probably the start of all the issues in an organization because everyone starts to become very protective around what it is that's actually causing the problem in any situation. So it's important that leaders really inspire through trust and transparency. Yeah. Right now, a lot of leaders, I think, are struggling with COVID. COVID's kind of wrapped up. I think in Australia, aren't you guys running a little bit behind? Do you still have COVID kicking around down there?

You guys were kind of behind the curve on getting it. Yeah, exactly. But I think we're all good now. So I think it's now being seen just as another virus. There you go. Now we just need to get the koalas cleared up. We'll be fine. I was just reading about that today. It was funny. They're vaccinating them, which is good because everyone loves koalas cleared up. We'll be fine. I was just reading about that today.

It was funny. They're vaccinating them, which is good because everyone loves koalas. They're cute. They're cuddly. I guess they're dying off from it. We want them to live. I don't know about some of the other weird animals that are scary as hell that you have there in Australia, but we won't get into that.

I'm surprised the human race survives down there. When I see pictures of like the spiders and stuff in australia i'm just like yeah i'll visit next year so but it's a lovely place and in fact the last australian uh gentleman we had on we were talking about men at work and it took me all the way back to my days i was in high school when that album came out for men at work business usual and so we got no whole thing about about uh pop music from the 80s um but uh so you know how do you see ceos right now are they struggling with the remote work experience do you have a lot of remote work going down there you know remote work you've seen here in america because we have a lot of it going

on and it's really it's really kind of mucking up everything and people are trying to, it's the new normal and people are trying to figure out the new normal. Yeah, I completely agree, Chris. I think still organisations are grappling with it. The majority are. Some are doing really well and some started remote and hybrid work way before COVID anyway.

You know, I know 100 organisations in the US that had amazing hybrid work experiences prior to COVID, and they were successful in doing so. So I don't think it's necessarily a new concept. I just think that COVID maybe helped other organisations realise actually it can work. You know, for quite some time there is some, you know, leadership behaviours and thoughts and thinking that, you know, that productivity can only take place in the workplace

and I fundamentally disagree with that. I think there is a time and place for everything. And I also think that that varies by department, at an individual level. You've got to actually allow for right down to the individual level to determine where is the best place for the ultimate productivity, right? So as I was talking about, you know, workshops and things like that, they tend to be more productive in a face-to-face environment.

You know, you can still have them remote, but, you know, the research shows that, you know, communication travelling through, you know, looking at how we speak and looking at our actions, looking at our facial expressions, it's less impact or I should say less resource intensive on the brain to try and navigate what that other person is trying to tell me when when I'm face to face so you know there's a time and place for everything uh you know but doesn't say that you know uh you've got your own individual you know I'm working on a document I can be

sitting at home or on the beach or wherever it may be and I could be working on that document I could be just as productive whether I'm there or in the office. So I think, yeah, I think some organizations are still trying to work out what that looks like, but it's really not that difficult. It's just about empowering your people to find that happy medium and work collectively throughout the organization to make it work most definitely you know one of the problems we've had here in america is zoom burnout like i've got friends that work for corporation they're they're doing like 12 zooms a day there's just meeting after meeting and they are just freaking fried yeah i do two to three shows a day on on stream yard but you know i love this and i i do it for free uh if I had to, because I love

talking to brilliant minds like yourself, I love having great guests on the show, and finding out what their thing is, you know, and I don't have to do it, if I don't want to, but I love doing it, it's one of the few things I actually love doing, and, but, you know, I mean, three shows, and there's a lot of work and production that goes on in my background and head and trying to come up with comedy during the show. There's a bit of work to it. But three Zoom meetings for me of podcasts on StreamYard is a bit draining. By the third show, at the end of the day, I'm squeezing out whatever energy I left. So I can't imagine doing 10 or 12.

I imagine most of the time you're sitting there just going, what is this idiot talking about in my office? But, you know, to me, I'm good at inspiring people face-to-face and being in an office with people sitting down, you know, maybe putting a hand on their shoulder or pat on their back or, you know, you have to be careful what you do in office these days. But, you know, having a hand on their shoulder or pat on their back or, you know, you have to be careful what you do in office these days. But, you know, having that whole rah-rah, I mean, people feel you when they're around you. There's a feeling they get from you. There's excitement they get.

And like you say, I really like how you clarified it. You know, we look at faces and we look at body language and that has an effect on us. You know, I mean um you know when you see great speakers and they're using different signs and body language that's part of the whole package of that motivation i think one of the problems that leaders have today is trying to convey that across the video screen and keep people engaged especially people that may be you know just sitting around their pajamas and underwear and going uh i need this shit in the morning you know that sort of thing i i don't know if there's a little bit uh if there's a little bit

of a differentiation of your attitude when you're sitting in your home and you're just like who the fuck is this guy as opposed to in your office going who the fuck is this guy you're standing at attention you know because you want to look good for your co-workers it's kind of a whole different realm you're approaching people in their space instead of you know the ceo or business space what do you any thoughts on that yeah chris i think there's two parts to this i think uh i think sometimes leaders are focused on the wrong problem to solve. So what you're describing here to me is a potential lack of engagement conversation when actually behind the scenes that lack of engagement relates to the culture of the organisation

because I could still be in my PJs and I could be super excited to wake up in the morning and I'm happy about the work that I'm doing, who I'm working for and what I do, right? I could still be standing and I've seen it in a town hall session in a suit listening to a leader talk, but I'm still very uninspired by, oh, here we go again, you know, we're talking about the results again, the financial data, or we're talking about all the great things that we're going to do, but deep down, you know, it's not going to happen because we're constantly bickering and fighting each other behind the scenes and, you know,

we can't get anything done because people aren't aligned and, you know, we don't manage conflict well and so, you know, and that's all in person. So I think what I'm trying to get at here is that, you know, there's a cultural engagement type of conversation that needs to be fixed at the root cause level before you even talk about whether we do hybrid or no hybrid, or how do we execute the hybrid? That's what I would call ancillary to solving that problem. Then there's the other issue, which is, okay, so the culture is is quite well and we're doing that amazingly great at the moment but we're struggling with the balance and i think leaders

are then coming out and talking about well you must come into the office two days a week or three days a week again it's missing the point it's not about the time or the frequency you come into the office it's about what work needs to be done in the office versus what type of work can be done at home. So, again, we need to be talking about why are we pushing people into the office. And if you help take them on that journey, then there's an educational piece that will get the buy-in. Yeah, instead of being like Elon Musk at Twitter, it's like anybody who doesn't show up on Friday doesn't have a job. Yeah, exactly. It's so hard

to get the hearts and minds behind that vision. And then, of course, the sell. You don't have a job. You know, Steve Jobs, you know, good and bad, had the ability to build an enticing vision for people that would move mountains. I mean, you know, trying to build the iPhoneicing vision for people that would move mountains.

I mean, you know, trying to build the iPhone was extraordinary for all the stuff he wanted to put into it. And, you know, you can name a lot of other visionaries who were trying to build something, and the overall arcing vision of what they got people behind. And I love your idea on your counter thing, that there are people who can stand at the front of a room in a live audience with employees and bore the crap out of them,

make them feel like they don't care about the business and all that good stuff. And that's very true. You know, the other, the other thing I think that's hard is, you know, with these zoom meetings, I see zoom meetings, it looked like the Brady bunch and there's like you know 10 or 20 people on the screen i used to enjoy being able to uh i used to call it touching i know that's a bad word now with hr i come back i come from like old school brick and mortar um but it wasn't touching but to me it was touching people and so what i would go do is meet with people one-on-one hey how are you doing today doing today, man? It's good to see you, man. How's things going? You good? You know, and to me, that was the touching.

Touching the hearts and minds. And it was a very individual thing where I could go sit down with people and they could feel that I actually gave a shit. You know, and I don't know how much of that would be lost coming across the screen. And it seems unimpersonal. You know, you're like, Hey, can you load up the computer so I can look at you in the screen? And I'm going to tell you that I give a shit and care. And I'm one of those people that when people hang out with me, I'm

going to make them laugh. I'm going to, I'm going to try and engage with them, uh, intellectually and emotionally. And, and to me, there's that touch. There's's a human touch i think that's the word i'm looking for uh or two words i'm looking for human touch the touching and and you know and it wasn't like it wasn't like hey where are your tps reports and and uh how your sales doing asshole you know it wasn't like that it was like hey how you doing man hey anything you need help with is there something i can do for you servant leadership sort of thing and um and and they would come away with going hey this guy really gives a shit about me and he understands that that my application of the company and and to me that

was a really valuable thing and i i think if i had a large corporation like i used to have in the day it would be harder for me to do that because I would go around the room and do that with my employees. Or if I saw them in the hallways, hey, how you doing? You okay? Sometimes there were divisions in my company. I had no idea who the employees were. Sometimes I'd have to stop and be like, do you work here? And they'd be like, yeah, I work here. You're the CEO. And I'd be like, oh, okay. All right. Carry on. And so being able to just kind of touch people in the halls with a human touch and just communication and going, hey, take care. I don't know if you have any thoughts about that. Yeah, I completely agree, Chris.

I think nothing's going to replace that human touch. I think when we went through COVID, what happened was, though, is that everyone started to scramble to say look how do we how do we keep going and and i think in them in the angst um of all of that that's where the zoom meetings and what have you started to spin up and it started to become a back-to-back session you know i finished and i know people that sat on their chair for 12 hours a day right they literally didn't get up because it was just back-to-back every day. But I think, and in fact, people started to become more productive than what they were inside the office because there was no interruptions and there was just complete focus.

You could argue a case for did I really need to have that meeting? It was a complete waste of time or what have you. But people were scrambling to just adapt, okay? All I'm saying now is that I think you can still have an element of human touch through remote working, you know, just like we're having a transparent, open conversation this way and we spend a bit of time to, you know, ask individual and personal questions, et cetera.

So you can, but it doesn't replace, of course, the face-to-face interaction so um i think it's again it's about how do you blend that into your work culture so that you know you don't have people sitting at home day in day out and there is no interaction because that's not good definitely definitely uh i i noticed you post a lot on on facebook uh one of your recent things was a model for ethical leadership. Do you find being ethical as a leader is a big challenge today in a corporate environment? I do. I think it's a real struggle.

I don't necessarily think that it's, again, something new. I think with every era and every generation, it's the same challenge. It just looks a little bit different because of the advancements that we have, right? And it just becomes, in today's world, in a digital world, it becomes maybe a lot easier to uh go off track so i think uh i think it's important that it's it's revisited and and that's uh refocused and it's really about how do you um ensure you're not a hypocrite right so how do you how do you ensure that what you stand for is actually what you are doing because that's really a key driver for people to be uh you know that have that sense of purpose and enjoyment and satisfaction for who they work for yeah it's it it really makes a difference and maybe that's why people are experiencing zoom being out burnout is because

being out is zoom burnout you can be out if you want i don't know what that means i think that means we can drink too much coffee you've been out uh i've had those moments in my life too much coffee you're like you're like maybe i shouldn't add that third cup uh you become too energized yeah i'm gonna start a coffee website being out being out.com um maybe it's a how to get off coffee i don't know anyway uh what about teams you talk a lot about teams I see on LinkedIn. What do you think is important on team building and CEOs building teams and getting high performance out of them? You're right. There is a lot of focus on teams, right? And I think one of my recent posts that I did that seemed to be supported quite well by a lot of followers is that, you know, I put a model for, you know, five key dimensions, which was to, you know, listen to your team members.

And we talked about that at the beginning of this conversation. We also need to be more open, right, around how approachable am I in terms of being able to discuss anything right so that we remove that fear factor through trust and transparency and as you said uh you know about that human touch well that's referred to as how do you engage at a personal level right to really go beyond the hard skills and the technical competencies that we're looking for and the work that we're doing on a day-to-day, but really engage at an individual level and have conversations that are, you know, maybe nothing to do with work, right, but really help build and foster that relationship. Then we look at evaluating how we're doing in terms of performance. So again, it's balancing that

heart and sort of compassionate leadership with performance management, right, but at an appropriate level. And looking at how leaders can do a comprehensive review of what's going on and get down to root cause analysis, right, there's not enough of that because a lot of the time, especially at sort of enterprise organisations, by the time the data is summarised and then summarised again and summarised again and people spend so many hours on PowerPoint presentations and, you know, by the time you're trying to make a decision, you're making a decision about a completely different story.

So you don't have the right facts, you don't have the root cause analysis there to sort of sit down and unpack it and really dig deeper into looking at options and having this type of free conversation. But instead, you're tied to a one-slider summary of a summary that's lost a lot of meaning and a lot of context. And so the decisions that are being made are, yeah, ultimately not the right ones.

Definitely, definitely. It makes all the difference. Anything you want to touch on about leadership, book, what you're working on and what you're doing right now? I think right now it's about how do we drive a message around, you know, how do leaders drive a message around, you know, how do leaders become better leaders and inspiring others? So a lot of my work now is helping leaders and coaching their teams,

spending time with them. And the best thing that they come back to saying is that that was great or that was a good experience because there was a reflection. And I think that's probably the focus is to give people more time to reflect the more time there is on reflection the more time we're able to evaluate and look at what's working well what's not working well and and sort of improving which is that growth mindset that um that that i'm really trying to push through chris it's to you know how do we all build a growth mindset, which is it's okay

to take constructive feedback. It's okay to, you know, have conversations that maybe push us outside our comfort zone, but that's important for continued growth. There you go. There you go. Well, this has been really insightful to have you on this show. I really appreciate it, Stuart. Thanks, Chris.

I've really enjoyed having the conversation with you, and, yeah, I'd love to do it again sometime. There you go. GiveUsStuart.com so people can find you on the interwebs. Yeah, awesome. So it's just simply www.stuartandrews.me. Stuart is S-T-U-A-R-T, Andrews.me. There you go.

And order it up, folks. Wherever fine books are sold, you can find it at Amazon and other great places. The Leadership Shift, How to Lead Successful Transformations in the New Normal, which is definitely always changing, so it's good to keep up with it. It's crazy all the stuff that's going on, especially COVID. COVID threw such a wrench in the gears and remote working but we will

adapt, we will survive or at least try not to lose our minds graceful and pressure as it were so thanks to my audience for tuning in go to goodreads.com, fortresschrisfoss, youtube.com fortresschrisfoss, all those crazy places we're on the internet, I think we're even on TikTok so search for us over there

thanks for tuning in, be good to each other, stay safe we'll see you guys next time