The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Life We Chose: William “Big Billy” D’Elia and the Last Secrets of America’s Most Powerful Mafia Family by Matt Birkbeck

Episode Date: July 18, 2023

The Life We Chose: William “Big Billy” D'Elia and the Last Secrets of America's Most Powerful Mafia Family by Matt Birkbeck https://amzn.to/3O0DCV4 “The Life We Chose—an unforgettable story. A really great read.” —Nicholas Pileggi, author of Wiseguy and Casino and screenwriter of Goodfellas From Matt Birkbeck—investigative journalist and executive producer of Netflix’s #1 movie Girl in the Picture—a revelatory father/surrogate son story that takes readers deep inside the inner workings of the mob through the eyes of William “Big Billy” D’Elia, the right-hand man to legendary mafia kingpin Russell Bufalino, who ran organized crime in the US for more than fifty years. William “Big Billy” D’Elia is Mafia royalty. The “adopted” son of legendary organized crime boss Russell Bufalino, for decades D’Elia had unequaled access to the man the FBI and US Justice Department considered one of the leading organized crime figures in the United States. But the government had no real idea as to the breadth of Bufalino’s power and influence—or that it was Bufalino, from his bucolic home base in Pittston, Pennsylvania, who reigned over the five families in New York and other organized crime families throughout the country. For nearly thirty years, D’Elia was at Bufalino’s side, and “Russ’s son” was a witness and participant to major historical events that have stymied law enforcement, perplexed journalists, and produced false and wild narratives in books and movies—not the least of which being the infamous disappearance of union boss Jimmy Hoffa. In addition, their reach was illustrated by their relationships with Frank Sinatra, Marlon Brando, Michael Jackson, Suge Knight, and many other celebrities and personalities. D’Elia became the de facto leader of the Bufalino family upon Russell Bufalino’s imprisonment in 1979, and he officially took control upon Bufalino’s death in 1994 until his arrest in 2006, when he was charged with money laundering and the attempted murder of a witness. He pled guilty to money laundering and witness tampering and was released from federal prison in 2012. Candid and unapologetic, D’Elia is finally ready to reveal the real story behind the myths and in so doing paints a complicated, compelling, and stunning portrait of crime, power, money, and finally, family.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the big show, folks. We certainly appreciate you guys being here.

Ladies and gentlemen, children, women, and everyone in between, whatever you want to call yourself, welcome to the big circus tent in the sky. We're going to be talking about the mob today. We're not talking about the line at the local buffet. We're talking about the mafia, la cosa nostra, this thing of ours, as they like to call it. Or at least that's what I've heard.

I don't know. I'm going to say plausible deniability. I don't recall, sir. Anyway, guys, we're going to be talking about a wonderful author and his story and his interviews with people from the mob, the mafia, the big thing. So anyway, before we get into that, as always, we've got to do the plugs. So go to Goodreads.com for us. That's Chris Voss.

YouTube.com for us. That's Chris Voss. LinkedIn.com for us. That's Chris Voss. And all those crazy places on the internet. He is the author of the newest book that just came out, July 11th, 2023. The Life We Choose. William Big Billy Delia. Did I pronounce that right delia delia delia and

the last secrets of america's most powerful mafia family matt burkebeck is on the show with us today and he joins us to talk about this latest book and uh it's going to be a fun read there might be some hafe in here if you're familiar with that story. Matt is an investigative journalist and author of six books, including The Quiet Dawn, Deconstructing Sammy, and A Deadly Secret, as well as A Beautiful Child and Finding Sharon, which were adapted by Netflix for their hit movie Girl in the Picture, for which he served as an executive producer. His work is also appearing in Playboy, Rolling Stones, New York Times, People, Reader's Digest, and other publications. What did your centerfold look like, Matt, in Playboy when you were in there?

It wasn't me, I'll tell you that. Matt, welcome to the show. Give us a.com so people can find you on the interwebs, please. I'm sorry? Give us your.coms so people can find you on the interwebs, please. Oh, I'm sorry? Give us your.coms so people can find you on the interwebs, please. MattBerkbeck.com

and Matt.Berkbeck.author on Instagram. There you go. So you've written quite a few books. What made you interested in this story and telling it

in this latest book of yours? In this particular case, the story found me. Billy D'Elia had been the head of the Buffalino crime family from 1994 until 2006 when he went to prison. But before that, he had spent nearly 30 years as the protege and so-called son of Russell Buffalino, who was arguably the most important and influential member of organized crime in the 20th century. And Billy, I had gotten an email. It was a summer afternoon in the middle of COVID. And an email said, are you interested in talking to Billy?

I almost jumped out of my chair because I knew Billy, every law enforcement agency in the country tried to talk to Billy about things, mostly because of his relationship with Buffalino. FBI, Secret Service, Homeland Security, New York City Terrorism Task Force. And Billy didn't speak to anyone. So when I got that email and he said he'd like to talk, I said, sure. And I went for it. There you go. What drew him to you? Did you owe him money on the vig?

Or did he come around and be like, hey, it's a nice authorship you have here? Sorry. I'm happy to say I did not owe him money. I had covered him when I was a newspaper reporter. Oh, really? I did. So I knew who he was. I covered him when he got arrested.

I was writing these investigative pieces involving Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania brought casino gambling to the state in the early 2000s and it was a mess. Who was getting licenses and how it was fixed and the corruption that was involved in all of that. One of the individuals seeking a license was a very well-connected billionaire in Pennsylvania who had known Billy and did Billy with the Buffalinos for well over 30, 40 years. And Billy blames his arrest on this individual. Billy was also upset with the film, The Irishman, and how Russell had been portrayed, Russell Buffalino. You know, Russell was all powerful and in the film, it didn't appear that

way. He also said that Frank frank sharon's story about him killing jimmy hoff it was fiction oh really yeah and so and billy knew sharon back in the early 70s through the 90s and he was very much involved in the making of sharon's book and he knew it was fiction and so he said he wanted to set the record straight and we ended up spending well over a year and a half talking that That's got to be an awesome drop in the lap. I mean, that's got to be wonderful to be able to talk to him. He's billed as mafia royalty. Yeah, he was and he is because of his relationship with Buffalino.

You know, Russell was, you know, I once said to Billy, was Russell ever on the commission? The five-hour commission that ran the mob. And he says, no, he wasn't on the commission. He said Russell was above the commission. That's how powerful he was. So Russell had ties going back to Cuba in the 1950s. He had owned casinos. He had gone toe-to-toe with Bobby Kennedy during hearings in Washington.

He had been involved in a so-called CIA mafia plots in the early 1960s where the CIA recruited members of the mob to kill Fidel Castro. And of course, he was linked to the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa in 1975. Russell was one of the key suspects. So there was just an incredible wealth of information about Russell that only Billy knew. And so I knew that, you know, obviously this was something I had jumped into. There you go. I was watching before the show, the Buffalino interviews, I think probably before the Senate.

I couldn't see who was on the other side, but it was probably, it looked like it was some sort of Senate or House hearing. And it was interesting to see how vague he was about everything. He's like, I don don't know I don't recall it was classic I mean it was classic Buffalino you know Deacon and you know

Ducking not really answering questions you know Jimmy Hoffa I know I knew him do you know Frank Sheeran yeah I met him sometime long ago I don't remember when that's how they used to be but he was very I knew him. Do you know Frank Sheeran? Yeah, I met him sometime long ago. I don't remember when. That's how they used to be. What he was known for was being very secretive, very quiet,

which is why law enforcement really could never get its finger on the Buffalinos and what they were all about. They knew that they were powerful. They knew Russell was very powerful. As far as Billy was concerned, they always thought he was just his driver. They had no idea the immense power and influence that Billy would eventually have. And this is the early mob. I guess Buffalino was known as the Quiet Don, is that correct? Yeah, he was because of his quiet way.

You know, I did all these interviews with Billy inside the home that Buffalo had owned in Pennsylvania and lived in. And it's a very nondescript ranch house. It's not like a palace that you might, one of these mob dogs might live in, but it was, it was just a, you know,

it was a ranch home in Kingston, Pennsylvania. And it's almost like a museum because it's owned by, it's owned by Billy D'Elia's son now. It's left to him by his wife and it's kept exactly the way it was in say 1975.

It's like a museum in there. So we ended up doing all the interviews in there. But you could see how Buffalino lived. He wasn't showy and didn't seek publicity unlike some other mob leaders did, which led to their downfalls. And, yeah, so for Buffalino, I was smart on his part.

There was a story in one of the mob sort of history things about one of the quiet dons, and it may have been Buffalino, but they were always quiet and, like, they didn't go themselves around or, you know, like John Gotti. Like John Gotti really broke the whole sort of image rule of trying to stay quiet. But, like, if you offended him or, you know, did something to, I guess, injure him, you know, he wouldn't get irate or throw a fit or anything. You just end up, you know, I don't know, in the East River or something. It depended

on who would say what and respect whom. Buffalino was treated like I said earlier, as he was, as one of the most powerful. The government identified him in the early 1960s.

He was identified as one of the most powerful and violent members of organized crime in the early 1960s. He was identified as one of the most powerful and violent members of organized crime in the country. But when you read this book, this is really more of an intimate look about two men. Buffalino didn't have any children, so him and his wife basically

adopted Bill, who had his own... He had his father, but he had a terrible relationship with him. Really? Yeah, he had a father, but he had a terrible relationship with him. Really? Yeah, he had a really bad relationship, which becomes known very early in the book. And so it's really a father and son story set against this incredible story involving organized crime and all the different people that you meet along the way. Hi, Voxers, Voss here with a little station break. Hope you're enjoying the show so far.

We'll resume here in a second. I'd like to invite you to come to my coaching, speaking, and training courses website. You can also see our new podcast over there at chrisvossleadershipinstitute.com. Over there, you can find all the different stuff that we do for speaking engagements, if you'd like to hire me, training that we offer and coaching for leadership management entrepreneur ism podcasting corporate stuff with over 35 years of experience in business and running companies as ceo and be sure to check out chris foss leadership institute.com Now back to the show. That's an interesting setting because when I heard Francis Ford Coppola really explain what The Godfather was, it really, I mean, it's a beautiful movie, but when he explained the story is basically it's a king with three sons.

And when you look at it from that aspect, it becomes much deeper. And like you just said, your book is about this complicated relationship between an adopted son and a father. It gives it more context, I think, in where you can understand what's really the dynamic going on. So would you call this a memoir of Billy's?

No, no, not at all. This is me interviewing him for a very, very long period of time. And then writing his story. You know, we did our fact checking. We made our phone calls, you know, to kind of validate as much as we could. Had I interviewed Bill for maybe a couple of weeks or so, I'd question a lot more that's in the book. But so much time with him. And we went digging into things that he told us and did our research

that we feel comfortable with it. But you're talking about a man that you just mentioned, the Godfather. There's this scene in the book where Billy answers the phone, and some guy says he's Marlon Brando calling for Russell Buffalino. And Billy says, there's a guy named Marlon Brando calling for you, and he thought it was a joke. And Russell says, give me that phone. And it named Marlon Brando calling for you. And he thought it was a joke. And Russell says, give me that phone. And it was Marlon Brando.

Holy crap. Because Russell had this outsized influence on the making of The Godfather. Oh, wow. Before production had begun. And when they tried to stop the film. And then when Russell basically gave the okay and he started production in terms of who was actually in the movie, members of the Bufalino family, members of the Colombo family. So Russell had great influence in the making of that movie.

Oh, wow. We had the author Mark Seal who wrote Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli, the epic story of the making of The Godfather. And I remember he talked about that where you know they weren't too happy to have this film made not at all no they and they caused a lot of problems for it but the thing that was really good about bill was that he was there so this is firsthand account sometimes actually often you're getting third fourth hand accounts and you know but these are this is directly coming from him

and his own experience and the stories that he shares. And, you know, he's never shared these before. There you go. So what do you think is going to maybe, maybe some teasers that might surprise people or some different things that people might find in the book that will either shock them or make them go, holy crap, I didn't even know about that.

I think just about all of the book. It's in terms of all the different people. I mean, if you think about it, you know, we meet, you know, Johnny Unitas, the old football legend who meets with Russell Buffalino and with Bill in the early 1970s. Of course, there's Jimmy Hoffa. And Billy answers some of the questions as to what went on with the disappearance of Hoffa. And then there's Donald Trump and Michael Jackson.

Billy did business with Trump on a number of occasions in the 80s and 90s. And Billy eventually became Michael Jackson's co-manager. Because of an effort by Trump to get Jackson to perform in Atlantic City. Billy interceded to stop it. And but as a reward, he told Jackson's manager he was now his partner. So, you know, there's a number. I mean, the book is just it's really what it became, though. It became more of a historical statement it's really interesting given so much that billy had seen and it didn't a part of

uh for the first time we're seeing a lot that went that went on during that period and it it's an interesting time period because i mean you know it's the old mob before uh before, what's his face, you know, made it a show in the 90s. John Gotti. John Gotti. And really, you know, drew a lot of issues to himself. And it eventually, you know, the Teflon eventually was wiped off. But it took the Justice Department quite a long time to finally pin it to him. But interesting story.

Why do you feel that as Americans we're so enamored by the mob and the mafia? We love mob movies. We love mob stories. We love all this stuff. Why is that such an important thing to us? I think it's because we see a world that we're not part of. I've often, as a journalist, seen the world as black and white with a little gray in between doing this book is a lot of gray really you know it's populated uh by people like billy delia who go in there but it's

not just organized crime either you know billy gets called in. Billy became, Russell was known as the mob's negotiator. And when Russell went to prison in the late 70s and then through the 1980s, Billy took his place and he became the negotiator. You know, I just mentioned the story with Trump and Michael Jackson and the mob. You know, Billy got called in on a number of things, but it wasn't just organized crime. It was entertainment issues. It was sports. It was politics uh you know when people when they needed help and they had to go under the table this is who they went to and to me that was pretty eye-opening yeah did this uh is he happy with

the book uh billy because yeah he he i let him read it uh before publication. He has some concerns. He went to prison in 2008. He had been arrested in 2006 on a drug money laundering charge and attempting to kill a witness. And that charge got dropped. And he ended up spending four years in prison. He got out in 2012. And it was the first time he ever went to prison. And he doesn't want to go back so uh he had asked if he could read it and go through it and i said sure uh we didn't we

didn't take anything out yeah it was really more about him there's in some things there was just like semantics like the scene in which billy gets made is really unusual and this happened in early 1970s. And, you know, Bill had concerns about admitting to the fact that he was a made member of a crime family and whether or not that put him in jeopardy. You know, we explained to him that audit I did and his attorneys did. So at the end of the day, you know, we left it in there. So but he was, yeah, he was fine with it. I think, you know, we don't embellish anything and we don't, um, go light on anything.

You know, it's the raw story and, uh, you know, and it's a pretty interesting life. The old original mob. Maybe the other thing we, the, maybe the other reason we, um, find it intriguing is because of the secretiveness or what used to be the secretness of the mob you know the cosa nostra this thing of ours where where you know we don't talk about it you know and uh and i remember it being so secret and then there's that famous senate hearing uh i think with bobby kennedy and in the 60s where the guy starts you know talking about la cosa nostra and exposing everything. And maybe it's

because of the secretive nature of it. And, and the, and maybe the fantasy that we have, you know, like we like Bond movies because, you know, we all like to be James Bond and be some secretive dude. And, you know, our lives mean something more than just, I don't know, going to McDonald's every day. Uh, and maybe that, you know, we also have a fantasy of power and money and being in the mob and having, you know, some respect instead of, I don't know, the wife yelling at you every day. The mob, you know, the mob today doesn't exist the way it did before, say, the mid-1980s when the government really did a a number on it uh through its various prosecutions but the mob had such a stranglehold on so many industries in this country you know buffalo for one uh was a power in the dress manufacturing for instance he had all these manufacturing firms in pennsylvania and he had contracts coming out of new york So he basically controlled it. He also had a stranglehold over the Teamsters Union.

He had been really good friends with Jimmy Hoffa in the 1940s. And he had actually, Russell placed his cousin, William, there, who was an attorney with Hoffa. William became the general counsel of the Teamsters. And that gave, between that and between his friendship with uh jimmy alpha that gave buffalino incredible power and the teamsters ran the nation i mean a strike by the teamsters cut everything down and so you know with that kind of power behind them they could basically do uh whatever they want and we don't see that we don't see that today so it's a it's a different world yeah i think i've been till even the 90s you couldn't pour a pound of cement in New York City without paying off someone in the mob, if I recall rightly.

I don't know if that's officially true. That's true. They controlled the cement business in New York. I mean, they're still involved with different unions in New York, but not even close to what it used to be prior to 1990, say. The power has waned considerably. There's got to be a chance. It's kind of a dumb question, but I'll

just put it up. Any chances it can turn into a movie like Goodfellas or Casino? Yeah, that's pretty much. I've done a couple of movies before. I just did a last year on and um that's in the process but it's all kind of turbulence out in california right now with oh that's right yeah the writer strikes the directors and whatnot so and the actors so you know it's gonna have to get settled before anything moves forward but um

marcus says you should definitely option it the book just came out a week ago and it's just you know the response has been overwhelming and it's because of the you know basically because of the story i think um it's pretty emotional and intimate between russell and billy you know amidst all this craziness and then plus of course course, I touched on Hoffa before. Billy explains what happened after he disappeared. How he went to a meeting with Russell in New York. And it was to keep Frank Sheeran from killing two other men, Tony Provenzano and Anthony Salerno, who had actually ordered Hoffa's murder.

Wow. But I said to Bill during our interviews, he was very close to Russell and always wanted to protect him, and I said to him, Provenzano and Salerno have given that order without Russell's permission, and he thought of that. He said no. So I said, so Russell had been involved, and he said yeah. And it made sense because Russell had just been outed as being a member of these CIA mafia plots by Time magazine. And this was at a time where there were these church committee hearings going on in Washington, which was focused on the CIA and its recruitment of the mob.

And so after that happened, a number of different people just started to disappear. Sam Giancana was murdered. Hoffa disappeared. And another, Johnny Roselli, was found murdered a year later. They were all members of these plots. So, you know, Bill tells us who ordered Hoffa's disappearance. I think the thing that still remains is who actually pulled the trigger. And where his remains ended up, I guess, huh?

Bill says, in his words, he was cooked. So he was cremated then. Yeah, cremated. So within, say, 10 minutes after the murder, which makes sense because you're not going to, you know, you've got this whole cottage industry of Hoffa people for, you know, the past, what, almost 50 years following it and talking about it. And,

you know, he's buried in the giant stadium. He's buried in garbage dump in New Jersey or whatever. It makes zero sense to kill the most well-known labor leader in the country. And then transport his body, multiple States, just to dispose of it.

That made zero sense. So I would kind of believe what Bill has to say about that yeah i think one of the movies or documentaries that was their surmise or something i don't remember um but uh you know this is something that's intrigued us for uh i don't know almost 100 years i think we've been enthralled by it and and there's a romanticism to it that i think we have that's kind of interesting. I don't know why. Maybe it's power. Maybe it's respect. Maybe it's... I had issues with my dad,

and I thought that was complicated, but Jesus takes it to a whole new level. I don't think... It's not an excuse for why Billy went with Russell. He had a terrible relationship with his own father like you said it happens to a lot of people it's not a reason why someone might go do something

they shouldn't be doing yeah plus my dad you know wasn't you know all that powerful when i came right but i mean it had you know i mean my father was a new york city police officer right um so had i met someone like Russell Bufalino, the only thing I would be thinking of is my father in the back of my mind saying, just turn around and walk away. You know, Bill did it. Billy liked

Russell. Russell had a way about him. Russell took him in. Russell taught him. Russell trained him. He gave Billy an opening into a world that Bill most people never would have I mean there's scenes in the book where you're just meeting you know you met Frank Sinatra for instance um in New York where Russell basically goes to a restaurant and a bar that Sinatra frequented and sits at a table at Sinatra's table and when he's

told that Sinatra's coming that night he says says, well, you tell him this is my table. And if he wants, he could join me. And that's when Sinatra shows up and he joins Russell and Billy was there. So, I mean, these are the kinds of things that Bill, you know, it was a trade-off obviously, you know, but Bill, you know, to his credit, you know, I asked him this question multiple times and I said, do you have any regrets at all? And he said, no. And therein lies the title of the book, the life we chose, you know, we chose it.

It didn't end well for him as you read. Um, but he doesn't have any regrets, regrets. And he would, uh, he did a whole thing again. There you go.

Well, I can't wait to see it in the movies. It's got to end up as a movie. This is one of those books. It has to be a movie. Um, cause I, we love these characters.

We love the stories. We love, we love the romanticizing everything about it i just watched the godfather 50th anniversary in theaters and is a remastered version it was so beautiful to watch again and uh knowing some of the background stories like from books like yours and uh mr seals uh you know as to as to what how complicated these were if i recall rightly the story is uh what was it frank sinatra's story with uh was it benny youngman yeah johnny fontaine's story of the of the uh band contract and i think it was wasn't benny youngman's band or whatever that that story came from with frank sinatra it's a true it's a true story he he'd signed into a lifelong contract he wouldn't let him out of it yeah there was two so actually you know two things russell despite um his outsized influence on the godfather he would

never watch the movie he refused to see it really and even when the producer already offered him a private showing russell didn't want to watch it and then when the producer al ruddy offered him a private showing russell didn't want to watch it and then i also asked bill i said what was the most realistic mob movie that you ever saw and he said goodfellas really wow yeah he said on for the day-to-day on what these guys did and how they lived and whatnot he said uh good for Goodfellas was the most realistic, which was also based on a very good book by Nick Pelleggi. So I found that interesting. Yeah, that's cool. I mean, another great movie, Goodfellas.

I mean, just what a story, man. So this is really interesting. Anything more you want to tease out or pitch before we go? No, it's just, you know, I'm glad you had me on and talk about this a bit. You know, it turned out to be, you know, from getting an email dropped on my lap to three years later, you know, being published a week ago and the book doing really well. You know, my understanding is we already went to a second printing after just three days. Holy crap. Nice. It's been really well received. so I'm happy about that.

So it's a very, very unique and interesting story, and I'm sure your viewers would find it really compelling. Definitely, definitely. People love these stories and the romanticism behind them. So pick it up wherever fine books are sold. And it's Delia, right? Delia. Delia.

Delia. I've got to get that right. Order up wherever fine books are sold. It's Delia, right? Delia. Delia. Delia. I got to get that right. Order up wherever Refined Books are sold. The Life We Choose, William Big Billy Delia. Delia? I'm sorry.

Delia. There you go. The Life We Choose, William Big Billy Delia. Why am I having such a hard time? And The Last Secrets of America's Most Powerful

Mafia Family. Matt, thanks for coming to the show. We really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Why am I having such a hard time? And the last secrets of America's most powerful mafia family. Matt, thanks for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. And give us a.com as a shout-out as we go out. MattBerkbeck.com is the website, and Matt.Berkbeck.author is Instagram. There you go. Thanks, Matt, for tuning in.

Go to Goodreads.com, 4ChessCrispFcom, Fortress Crispus, LinkedIn.com, Fortress Crispus. All those places on the internet that Chris Foss shows. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time. And that should have us out.