The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Oswalds: An Untold Account of Marina and Lee by Paul R. Gregory

Episode Date: December 23, 2022

The Oswalds: An Untold Account of Marina and Lee by Paul R. Gregory The closest friend of Lee Harvey Oswald and his Soviet wife Marina upon the couple’s arrival in Texas breaks a sixty-year silence with a riveting story of his time with JFK’s assassin and his candid assessment of the murder that marked a turning point in our country’s history. Merely two hours after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, television cameras captured police escorting a suspect into Dallas police headquarters. Meanwhile at the University of Oklahoma, watching the coverage in the student center, Paul Gregory scanned the figure in dark trousers and a white, V-neck tee shirt and saw the bruised and battered face of Lee Harvey Oswald. Shocked, Gregory said, “I know that man.” In fact, he knew Oswald and his wife Marina better than almost anyone in America. After sixty years, Paul Gregory finally tells everything he knows about the Oswalds and how he watched the soul of a killer take shape. Identified by the FBI as a “known associate of LHO,” Gregory soon faced interrogations by the Secret Service. Later he would testify before the Warren Commission. Here, in The Oswalds, he offers the intimate details of his time spent with Lee and wife Marina in their run-down duplex on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, Texas, and his admission into the inner world of a young marriage before candidly assessing the murder that marked a turning point in our country’s history. His riveting recollection includes memories both casual and deadly serious, such as the dinner at his parents’ house introducing Marina to the “Dallas Russians,” a front-yard incident of spousal abuse, and a further rift in the marriage when he exposed to Marina that Oswald was not the dashing, radical intellectual whose Historic Diary would be a publishing sensation. And Gregory also gives a fascinating account of his father’s role as an eyewitness to history, serving as Marina’s translator and confidante in the first four days after the assassination. As a scholar and skilled researcher, Gregory debunks the vast array of assassination conspiracy theories by demonstrating that Lee Harvey Oswald did it and did it alone—that the Oswald he once called a friend had the motive, the intelligence, and the means to commit one of the most shocking crimes in American history. 

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the big show, my friends. We certainly appreciate you guys coming by today. Today we have an amazing author on the show.

He's going to be talking to us about Lee Harvey Oswald. You may have heard of him. You know, recently we found out that through QAnon that I guess the government's being run by Jan F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy's son, which, I don't know, John F. Kennedy would be like, what, 110 or something? I don't know what he would be. But that craziness conspiracy aside, we'll be talking about the Oswalt's. And this will be a really interesting story and historical stuff. And we'll also be talking about the recently released John F. Kennedy files

from his assassination and stuff that the government's been keeping under wraps all this time. We're still wondering why, because everyone would like to know the truth. And maybe that would be just better just to let it off. So we'll be talking to him in a bit. But in the meantime, you know the drill. The family that loves you but doesn't judge you, The Chris Voss Show. Go follow them on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, all those crazy places, including LinkedIn. There'll be a LinkedIn newsletter over there as well.

He is the author of the newest book that just came out, November 15th, 2022, The Oswalds, An Untold Account of Marina and Lee. We have Paul R. Gregory on the show with us today. He's going to be talking to us about his amazing insight to his book. And I think you'll be very interested. I am. As soon as I saw it, I was like, I got to get this guy on the show. I got to find out what's going on with this book and what the details are.

Paul Gregory is a research fellow at Hoover Institute at Stanford University. He holds a PhD in economics from Harvard. He's written on the economy of the Soviet Union and the USSR under Stalin. He is an author of some 40 books, count them, his latest being The Oswalds, The Untold Tale of Marina and Lee. So welcome to the show, Paul. How are you? I'm doing fine. Looking forward to our conversation

so am I and here we are give us your.com so people can find you on the interwebs or wherever you want people to learn more about you well that's a very good question I'm paulrgregory.net that's the homepage of the book

so I would direct your listeners there paulrgregory.net there you go homepage of the book. So I would direct your listeners there. Paul R. Gregory dot net. There you go. So you've written over 40 books. Wow, that's quite extraordinary. Well, you might notice I'm not a youngster. And so if you spread that over 50 or 60 years of career,

it's somewhat less impressive, but I'm impressed by it. I think you should be. What I did is pretty good, so I'm happy about that. You should be. You should be. It's quite a body of work. I mean, I wrote my first book at 54, 53. So at my pace, I'll have another one out at 106 or 108, one of those two.

So you're doing much better than I am. So what motivates you to want to pick up and write this book on the Oswalds? Well, the main motivation is the fact that I'm one of the few left who knew Lee and Marina quite well. You did? Yes. Wow. I'm from Fort Worth, Texas, originally. At the time, I was a student at the University of Oklahoma,

and there was an item in the paper, Marine defector returning to Fort Worth with Russian wife. That kind of alerted me to something. My father is Russian, so our family is Russian, one could say. He taught Russian at the public library as a volunteer. And Lee and Marina came back to Fort Worth. They were staying with his brother, Robert. And Lee decided he needed a certification that he was proficient in Russian. And the one place to go for that in Fort Worth was my father's office in the

Continental Life Building. So my father got a call from the employment agency. There's a young guy coming by. It was Lee dressed in a woolen suit, probably bought in Minsk, and the temperature outside was 100, so that was not pleasant for him. My father had him read a passage or two from a book. They had a little conversation, and he did give Lee this certification

that he's proficient in Russian, but warned him there aren't any jobs in Fort Worth in 1962 for Russian speakers, but that was how we got acquainted. When Lee left, he left his brother's phone number and as a consequence of that, my father and I went over to their house, at least Robert's house, and met Marina. Wow. And so you end up being a close friend of Lee Harvey Oswald.

That's a good question, how to characterize it. Friend can mean someone you know. It could also mean someone you know and like. I would say I was on the someone you know category, but I was in their house on Mercedes Street quite regularly because I was speaking Russian and wanted to improve my Russian. And Marina was

fresh from the Soviet Union and someone to speak with and learn about what was then contemporary Russian, Russia. So I would go over to their house two, three times a week for about a month and a half.

And in that period of time, I got to know them pretty well, I would say. So who was Marina? We're all pretty familiar with Lee Harvey Oswald, at least we think we are. Who was Marina? I mean, I've never heard much about her. You know, Lee kind of always leads the news. And how old were you at the time? Tell us about that.

I was 21. Marina was 21. Lee was, I think, 24. Marina, who was quite a Slavic beauty, was a pharmacist in Minsk, which is now Belarus. So she was a pharmacist. Lee, who defected to the Soviet Union, was placed in a provincial city, namely Minsk. He met Marina at a dance, and one thing led to another. They married after a rather brief courtship and lived in Minsk for a while.

And during that period, Lee decided he had made a mistake and he wanted to go back to the United States. So she married him without knowing that he had plans to leave Russia and go back to the United States. So it took him a while to persuade her that she should come with him. Wow. And how was she able to get out of Russia? I mean, back then it was... Well, one thing you'll learn if you read my book is that Lee was quite inventive.

He knew how to manipulate people. He knew how to play a role, even though he was dyslexic and could not spell. Wow. And that's that's one reason we tend to underestimate him because he was a very bright manipulating guy who knew how to get his way so basically he persuaded the US embassy that he had seen the light of day and that he

wanted to return to the United States with his wife Marina and they had an infant daughter June at the time and not only did he get the papers that allowed Marina to leave Russia and those

papers were from the Soviet authorities Lee also got permission for her and the daughter to go with him to the United States and even got a loan from the State Department to pay the way. Wow.

So how does, at what point does Lee Harvey Oswald start getting, did he get radicalized? And at what point did he start getting radicalized? Where, whether he, did he, was he just enthralled by Russia and communism? Was he anti-American? At what point did this guy turn on a dime on us? My answer will surprise you because the answer is 15 years. At the age of 15, he discovered Marx and Lenin and Trotsky and the various writers in the Marxist tradition. I always found that hard to believe because there's nothing more tedious than trying to read Karl Marx.

But somehow at the age of 15, he got turned on to this. And I thought when he and I were together, you know, regularly, I thought it was just a pose for him. You know, I'm radical, I'm different, I'm interesting. But as a consequence of reading the details in the Warren Commission report, I learned that he was pretty serious about his Marxism, that he had written in terrible spelled English. He had written some things on Marx and Lenin, etc., which showed me that he was actually taking this quite seriously. So that was his persona.

A Marxist scholar would be how he wanted to be known. There you go. And so I imagine having a Russian wife and embracing Russia in a time of... When was the McCarthy stuff? Was that in the 50s?

It was over. It was over, yeah was the McCarthy stuff? Was that in the 50s? It was over. It was over, yeah, the McCarthy era. But, I mean, they, you know, I think the nuclear bomb, they'd prosecuted who was it? Oppenheimer. Yeah. The spy, Julius Rosenberg, I guess. Yeah, the two traitors, the husband and wife traitors. So there's still a lot of anti-Russian sentiment and suspicion over Russia going on.

I mean, I grew up in the 70s. We were still hiding under a desk from the USSR. So the book is billed that you break your 60-year silence with this story. What made you want to wait all this time or what made you wait this time? Well, I'd say one reason was I was very busy. I was trying to get a PhD from Harvard in economics without having the necessary training from my undergraduate institution.

So I was scrambling to keep my head above water. I also got married at that time after a year in Germany. But that's sort of a technical explanation. The real explanation was that our family, which was involved in this thing, because my father was with Marina for five days immediately following the assassination. He translated for her because she couldn't speak English. So he saw an awful lot of history being made. But we were very reluctant to let it be known that we had associated with this commie guy. Yeah.

That he'd been in our house and we'd introduced him to the Russians in Dallas and so on and so forth. And my father was fairly prominent in the oil industry. So, you know, we thought what in the world would associates and neighbors think of the Gregories who were consorting with this guy? And someone who killed the U.S. president. Yeah, of course. So somehow we managed to stay out of the newspapers. We, of course, testified before the Warren Commission.

Yeah, you guys saw the Warren Commission, the Secret Service, imagine the FBI maybe. The Secret Service knocked on my door in Norman, Oklahoma, about 8 a.m. the day after the assassination. They knocked on my father's door in Fort Worth at 3 a.m. So they got to us rather quickly. And one reason for this is that Lee and Marina didn't really have that many friends. And the report that they used to come and get me in Oklahoma was that I was a known associate.

So there were very few known associates of Oswald. So anyway, that's reason number two for waiting so long. Reason number three is we now know a lot more than we knew at the time. I've been able to go through the Morton Commission report, Lee Harvey Oswald's KGB file we now have. So we have a lot more information than we used to have. So if you add those three together, they explain why we're talking almost 60 years after the fact. Yeah. And it's an important discussion to have because one of the problems with this is,

you know, they locked up, you know, a lot of the details about this for, what was it, 50 years? I think it was sealed or something. There was some of it that was released a couple weeks ago. And, you know, you went through the Warren Commission, the Secret Service, all this sort of stuff. In the book, you debunk the vast array of assassination conspiracy theories. You know, you watch this man develop and stuff. And so I think that's important. You know, I joked at the beginning of the show about the QAnon stuff,

and there was like a bunch of them that were down at the grassy knoll area there in Dallas waiting for John F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy Jr. to reemerge, and they believe all this crazy stuff about the thing. So I guess you talk at length about debunking a lot of these conspiracy theories. I don't spend that much time on debunking the conspiracy theories. Most of them should be debunked. The reason for this is the minute you open that door,

there's going to be a horde that starts running through that open door. I just didn't want to deal with how many bullets were fired, when were they fired, who did the autopsy, the grassy knoll, etc., etc. If I open that door, I would be spending the rest of my life on this subject, which doesn't interest me a great deal. What interests me is really who was this Oswald guy? Why did he do it? And so on. So that's how I structured the book.

Who is this guy? How was his marriage? Did the marriage contribute to what he did? Why did he do it? Did he have the tools to do it? Those are the questions that interested me, not some rather wacky conspiracy theory. Yeah, it sounds like you really break down the man and how he radicalized himself and

the kind of person his behavior and personality was. I mean, it sounds, you know, many dyslexic people are highly intelligent because they have to learn to adopt and adapt in other ways or learn stuff in other ways. Or not always, but sometimes people can be very manipulative or narcissistic if they have trouble learning things. I'm not saying all dyslexic people are like that, by the way, so don't get your feels hurt. But, you know, people can adapt and adopt to whatever sort of life they can. And I think it's interesting that you break it down. What, what was the last time you saw him or talk with him before Kenny's assassination?

How many, how many, how much time had passed before then? And did you see, was there a point that you saw that like, this guy's dangerous, he's going to kill somebody. The answer to the first question is it was November 22nd 1962. Kennedy was shot November 22nd 1963

and it was Thanksgiving Day in Fort Worth. Marina called me up at home saying they need to get the bus back to Dallas because all their transportation was foot or bus. So will you come get us? And I drove over and picked up Lee, Marina, and June, the daughter, little daughter,

who went to our house. It was a rather tense meeting, and it's sort of a long story, but I had gotten a postcard from Dallas. They'd moved to Dallas, and the postcard was written in a rather primitive English with misspellings, and I thought that postcard had been written by Marina, who had decided to learn some English. And it turned out it was Lee who had written that postcard.

And he had pawned himself off to Maria as this intellectual Marxist, and he couldn't spell. And so I wrote a letter back to marina saying i'm happy you're learning english but you made these mistakes so when marina called me up on november 22nd 62 which was the last time i saw them she her first words were i didn't write the i didn't write the letter Lee did. So Lee was exposed to her, and I imagine at that point in time he was dangerous. But here I was, a naive 21-year-old,

and wouldn't have picked up on it. But I can imagine there was a great deal of hatred in him for me. Yeah. Did you, because you in him for me. Yeah. Did you, uh, could you expose him? Wow. You know, he, he sounds like,

uh, maybe this guy was on a, would you say this guy was on a path from your experience with him to end up doing something bad? Uh, I mean, there's some people that they're just kind of from the, from the beginning,

they're kind of a bad egg and they're on a destiny course. I don't know. That's my opinion. I don't know. That's my opinion. I don't know about him, though. I would have been the worst judge of something like that. I imagine if he were alive today, he'd be a school shooter. Because his view of the world was he was a great person. The world did not recognize that he was a great person

and they did not recognize he was a great person because society had it in for him and his mother and the mother is a big factor in explaining Lee Harvey

Oswald she was a monster. Wow. Was his father in the picture? No, the father died I think shortly after he was born. So he grew up with his mother. Well, that explains a lot. That's usually where a lot of school shooters have

issues there. The mother was a real pest and bothered our family for a long time because she thought she had been isolated

by the Secret Service from Marina and the kids as a dangerous person. So the mother thought that we were the ones who were hiding Marina and the kids. And so she kept phoning and pestering us about this. So you're right. In order to really understand him, you have to understand his mother, whom he hated.

He wouldn't allow the mother in the house. Wow. And I think he hated her because he saw himself in her and i'm not a psychiatrist so it's a that's a a novice's belief well we grow up we grow up becoming more like the people that we're surrounded by so most people become like their parents in fact they recreate their relationships from the relationships their parents had to try and resolve them subconsciously. And that's really interesting, that insight that you gave to the mother. And most school shooters have either an absentee father, this has been documented in several books. In fact, the boy crisis is one of the big ones. But a lot of these boys that are raised in emotionalism

and don't have a strong alpha father in the home or around are school shooters. It's just these boys are lost in emotionalism and don't have testosterone around. So this is really interesting, man. You expose a lot man this is a great book on getting to know in depth everything um the the uh is there a point that you feel he becomes a killer did he have a real thing for kennedy did he did you see any of that in inklings in your with with with respect respect to Kennedy, I heard nothing but good things from them. Marina really admired Jackie. And I know this because when I would go visit them in their duplex in a rather poor part of town.

On the coffee table, they had the Time magazine issue where Kennedy was the man of the year. And so that gave me occasion to ask Marina and Lee, you know, have you heard of the president? What do you think if you've heard of him? And Marina was quite fascinated by JFK. She had seen pictures of the kids and she ventured that Jackie must be a very good mother. So I only heard good things about Kennedy from Marina. And Lee seemed to shake his head and agree. So there was no evidence of any hostility towards Kennedy. When Lee shot Kennedy, he would have realized that he was really going to destroy his wife,

who was his admirer of Kennedy. So I imagine he thought that over. It's just a guess. I wonder if, you know, that makes me think kind of interesting. If maybe, you know, Kennedy was a good-looking man. A lot of women adored him. It's infamous. We've had authors on that have talked about what was going on in the White House, in the White House pool, you know, in Kennedy's affairs.

He was a good-looking man, and he he was charismatic and women liked him I'm wondering if some of it was a bit of jealousy that his wife liked Kennedy and maybe it was you know I'm taking on another man to do the thing or do you think maybe I mean this is all you know we're just kind of throwing around theories

do you think maybe it was part of that built into some sort of political thing or I don't know it sounds like a really complicated, convoluted situation. It'd be speculative on my part and on your part to think that way. So Kennedy happened to be the wrong place at the wrong time. Wow. That's, you know, because Lee had narrowly missed assassinating the leader of the Dallas right-wing community, General, what's his name, General whatever.

He was a leader of the John Birch's General Walker. He was a leader of the John Birch's side in Dallas. And much of Dallas's reputation as being super right radical came from Walker. And so Oswald, after he had ordered his assassination weapon, staked out the Walker house in Dallas for a couple of weeks and took a shot at him one night, just narrowly missed. So there's no doubt that Oswald was a killer. And people forget that he'd come very close to killing a prominent political figure. So that answers one of the questions. Was he a sort of a born killer?

And the answer appears to be yes. But relating this to his wife's admiration of Kennedy and Kennedy's charisma, etc. That's going further than I'm prepared to go. Sure. I thought I'd throw it out as a theory. Keep that in mind, people. Don't create any more conspiracy cults. We have enough.

We have enough already. When I saw the QAnon people, they're like, John F. Kennedy's coming back. In fact, I've seen some videos where they believe John F. Kennedy's actually running the thing. It's like, have you done the math on how old he would have to be? Like, there's no one. I mean, I think John F. Kennedy was in his 60s when he was gone? No, I think he was mid-50s.

I could be wrong. So he'd be 100 plus. 120 or 10 or something. They complain about presidents that we now have in the last two who have been in their 70s that aren't quite with it. Come on.

This is really interesting. I've been fascinated by Kennedy and Kennedy's legacy. We've had a number of authors on the show have written about his, uh, all sorts of different aspects of his life, even his wife's life. Um, and you know, people are just endlessly fascinated by this period of time. And, and I, and I think it's appropriate because, you know, it, it was, we were, we were robbed of a president that was, uh, you know, likely loved. Um, I think one of the things that came out of the two weeks ago, I think it was the more stuff was exposed or put out by the government and Biden from on what was going on at the time.

And I think there was an inkling or a hint or discussion that the FBI knew and was aware of Oswald and the danger of Oswald. And it's possible that Hoover looked the other way because of Hoover's interests on, you know, he wasn't a big fan of the Kennedys, as you know. And I think that's pretty much public knowledge. Any thoughts on that? Well, what my father witnessed, and this was in the aftermath of the assassination, where they were hiding out in the Six Flags Inn between Dallas and Fort Worth with the Secret Service, Marina, and the mother, Marguerite, what he saw was a very bitter enmity

between the Secret Service and the FBI. In fact, the Secret Service would not tell the FBI where Marina was being held. So the FBI had to come to my father's office and try to dig out of him, you know, where they were holding Marina. But this enmity, I think, was due to the fact that the Secret Service, which was very close to the president, you know, they're with him every day, FBI had dropped the ball on Oswald because by that time they knew that he had been in Mexico City and had been in the Soviet embassy. And this is the foundation of virtually all conspiracy theories, that trip to Mexico City. But the Secret Service thought that they'd lost their president

due to the incompetence of the FBI. And it was, my father saw this enmity, you know, firsthand. Interesting. I mean, it's, I really wish they quit hiding all this stuff. Like, evidently there's still some stuff they won't release. And it's like, just release it already. You're causing so many people to come up with stupid conspiracies but i think it's really interesting you've broken your silence on it share it with the world i think it's uh

i think it's definitely due and uh it's always topical with the kennedys i mean we'll probably be talking about the kennedys and the kennedy administration you know until we're still talking about Abraham Lincoln. And Lincoln's a big part of history books and everything that's written. So, you know, having a president lost in, I think, I think in some, in some sort of subconscious mode of us as a country, we kind of go, what would it have been like if we kept that president? We know this country would be very different if, if abraham lincoln had lived and been able to finish his agenda uh you know jim crow and everything grew out of uh his assassination and the country flipped back um you know certainly a lot of dark things happened especially with vietnam and other things uh when johnson took over and uh uh you know i i think i think somewhere in the back of

our mind we have questions where we just go, why did this happen? How did it happen? How can we keep it from happening again? You know, we saw a lot of attempted assassinations of Ford in the 70s, I remember. I think just about every president's had some. Reagan. Reagan, of course. Someone even took a shot at Carter from about a block away, though.

Yeah, yeah. And I think there's been lots of attempts that go on. I think Obama had the largest amount of threats against him than any president in probably ever history. And so, you know, this is one of these things where, you know, we don't want to have anything happen to our presidents and their legacy of what they are, at least, I guess, if you're vested as a voter. But, you know, these are the people that we deem to carry the torch for four to eight years of our democracy. And we certainly don't want a foreign government, of course. You know, the implication with Lee in Cuba, there was a big Cuba thing and, you know,

the Russia thing. And we're like, we don't want people from other countries influencing or causing our leaders to be assassinated. So it's always just interesting. Anything more you want to tease out of the book before we go? No, I think

we could go on for a couple more hours and still not exhaust everything. We want people to go buy think we've we've covered I'd say the main points and I appreciate you're having me on and I hope others will find this

conversation interesting and be motivated to buy the book which is The Oswalds and so I'm just pleased to get it out. I'd say the one thing I'd end with is you were asking me why I wrote this book 60 years after the fact, and it was, I'm at Hoover Institution, which has some very good historians.

And they said, you know, you've seen history. So it would really be a black mark if you were not to write this stuff down. So I'd say that was the most persuasive argument right there. There you go. Yeah, I think it really helps by shining a light onto this sort of stuff. It can help find all these crazy conspiracies and stuff that go on. You know, it's interesting to me how one of the reasons, like, people are always like, why do these conspiracies happen? I think the horror of these things and the loss of these things Manson, who decides to go be a killer or someone like these guys, the Harvey Oswald, to be a killer. It's interesting to me what you said about how he would be a school shooter today.

And his MO probably fits it. I'm not an FBI MO agent, but we've had him on the show. But it sounds like I'm not brilliant, but I stated a Holiday Inn comment there, but there's a joke for you. So I'm glad you came out and talked about this because to me, it gives you a bigger picture of the mother, his mother, the wife, the kid, the complication of his life, the pressure of being found out of fraud that he is by what he's built. And it sounds like he really built a house of cards and put himself under pressure to do whatever he ended up doing. And it's crazy.

You ask yourself, as a man, you ask yourself, what makes a man do certain things that other men don't do? In innately in our biology, we are born killers. If I get in a fight with another man, it can escalate to a point of death. So it's always interesting to me what makes a man cross that threshold and how it does it.

And of course in this, it was the most extraordinary famous event of, you know, most people remember, my parents do, remember when Kennedy died. In fact, my mother has like all the newspapers from that day, the day after, and I think the subsequent days. I should have brought them out for this. But anyway, people should read your book and all that good stuff.

Give us your dot coms where we want people to find you on the interwebs, Paul. Okay. to find you on the interwebs, Paul. Okay, well, paulrgregory, no spaces, excuse me, paulrgregory.net. There you go. There you go. And I'll be excited to read it. It's going to be really interesting.

You know, more in-depth makeup of this man who did one of the most horrible things we've faced in the 20th century. So thank you very much for coming on, Paul. We really appreciate it. Thank you, and I've

enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Order up the book, folks, wherever fine books are sold. The Oswalds, An Untold Story of Marina and Lee by Paul R. Gregory. Order it up and make a great Christmas gift for all your inquiring minds there on the holiday season. And just a great read, especially if you've been following John F. Kennedy for as long as I am. I remember one of my first big books I read was, I think it was A Thousand Days by Celestian.

Yeah. And I was so intrigued by Kennedy. He was just a young teen and just his life and consuming his mind and life. Of course, the aspect of like, what if? What if he hadn't been killed? How would life have been different,

especially with Vietnam? Anyway, thanks for tuning in, my friends and family. Be sure to go see us on youtube.com, LinkedIn, all those crazy places on the internet. Be good to each other, stay safe, and we'll see you guys next time.