The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Soul of Genius: Marie Curie, Albert Einstein, and the Meeting that Changed the Course of Science by Jeffrey Orens

Episode Date: July 27, 2021

The Soul of Genius: Marie Curie, Albert Einstein, and the Meeting that Changed the Course of Science by Jeffrey Orens A prismatic look at the meeting of Marie Curie and Albert Einstein and the impact these two pillars of science had on the world of physics, which was in turmoil. In 1911, some of the greatest minds in science convened at the First Solvay Conference in Physics, a meeting like no other. Almost half of the attendees had won or would go on to win the Nobel Prize. Over the course of those few days, these minds began to realize that classical physics was about to give way to quantum theory, a seismic shift in our history and how we understand not just our world, but the universe. At the center of this meeting were Marie Curie and a young Albert Einstein. In the years preceding, Curie had faced the death of her husband and soul mate, Pierre. She was on the cusp of being awarded her second Nobel Prize, but scandal erupted all around her when the French press revealed that she was having an affair with a fellow scientist, Paul Langevin. The subject of vicious misogynist and xenophobic attacks in the French press, Curie found herself in a storm that threatened her scientific legacy. Albert Einstein proved a supporter in her travails. They had an instant connection at Solvay. He was young and already showing flourishes of his enormous genius. Curie had been responsible for one of the greatest discoveries in modern science (radioactivity) but still faced resistance and scorn. Einstein recognized this grave injustice, and their mutual admiration and respect, borne out of this, their first meeting, would go on to serve them in their paths forward to making history. Curie and Einstein come alive as the complex people they were in the pages of The Soul of Genius. Utilizing never before seen correspondance and notes, Jeffrey Orens reveals the human side of these brilliant scientists, one who pushed boundaries and demanded equality in a man’s world, no matter the cost, and the other, who was destined to become synonymous with genius.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain now here's your host chris voss hi folks chris voss here from the chris voss show.com the chris voss show.com hey we're coming here with a great podcast we certainly appreciate you tuning in thanks for being being with us here today. Today, we have an amazing author. We do this every day. We just have these amazing authors that come on the show and we just put them in the Google machine and we type in amazing authors

and they just appear like magic on the show. So the beautiful part is you should tell your friends, neighbors, relatives to subscribe to the Chris Foss Show podcast so they can experience the magic of the wonderful authors and book writers that we have on the show. I don't know why authors and book writers are just separated into two different forms, but hey, duplicate nouns, way to go. Anyway, guys, back to what we're up to. Go to goodreads.com forward slash Chris Foss at the bell notification button. Go to all the groups you have on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. I can't even count all the groups that we have for the Chris Foss Show, but go follow them because there's interesting stuff that happens over there. That's what they tell me. Anyway, guys, today we have an amazing author

on the show as well. The soul of genius, Matt Marie Curie, Albert Einstein, and the meeting, the change, the Course of Science by Jeffrey Orns. He's with us today. He's going to be talking about his amazing book. And he is a former chemical engineer and business executive with Solvay Chemical, who has written for several history publications and has an exceptional eye for overlooked gems in history. He lives in Fairfield, New Jersey, and here he is on the show with us.

Welcome to the show, Jeffrey. How are you? I'm great. It's great to be here, Chris. Thanks for having me. Thank you very much. And did I get the name of your chemical company correct? Solvay Chemical.

That's right. Solvay Chemical. I just took a swing at that and just tried to nail that one out of the park. So welcome to the show. Give us your plugs so people can go find you on the interwebs and find out where to order this amazing book. Sure. Really, LinkedIn is a great place to go. I'm also connected through Amazon author's page, Pegasus Books author's page, that type of thing. But really, I'm connecting with everyone through your show and telling them to go out and buy the book.

I'm on Amazon. The book's in print. It's an e-book. It's an audio book as well. They've done a great job on that. And it came out a couple of weeks ago. So it's fresh off the presses and ready to be purchased. So get out there and do it. It's got that beautiful, fresh book smell.

So, Jeffrey, what motivated you to want to write this book? Yeah, I was in the chemical industry for 40 years. And in the chemical industry, my last stop was with a company called SciTech Industries that was purchased the Salve offices in New Jersey or around the world, one of the first things is a picture that's a mural-sized picture of what looks like an all-star assembly of scientists, chemists, and physicists. It's usually on one wall in a reception room. You take a look at it it and it blows your mind. Albert Einstein, Marie Curie, Max Planck, Niels Bohr is over there on the side, Heisenberg, a whole range of physicists and chemists. And it makes you wonder, what's this all-star group doing up here on the wall? And I wanted to take a look and understand it a little bit more. And the more I delved into it, the more I found out, number one,

this picture is usually referred to as the most intelligent picture ever taken, because 17 out of the 29 people in that picture either had one or would go on to win Nobel Prizes in chemistry and physics. So this is a pretty rarefied air we're talking about here in the scientific world. This was a picture of the fifth Salve conference on physics. And that took place in 1927. And I wanted to the fifth Salve conference. It's interesting. How about the first Salve conference? What was that all about? I did a little research and it led me to uncover a tremendous story related to Salve, a fellow named Ernest Salve who founded Salve Chemical, why he sponsored these conferences, what the first conference was all about, the personalities, the events surrounding the

conference, and really to understand more about the Salve conference as a turning point in physics. The Salve conference basically, first one was in 1911. And the reason Salve brought people together, and he only brought 24 of them together, it was a pretty select group of geniuses. He brought them together to try to balance out what is happening in the world of physics, the classical world of physics, Newtonian physics, gravity, light and energy was being challenged by this upstart theory that was being espoused by a couple of different individuals, including Einstein. And that theory was quantum theory. And so at this conference, basically, quantum theory was colliding with the classical Newtonian physics of the day. Oh, wow. This is pretty interesting. I should have photobombed that photo so that I could have gotten on the Nobel Prize sort of list, maybe. I don't know. I'm not sure if that would have done it, but... No, turn it. No, there you go. On the cover of the book, there's a picture of both the individuals, and I guess inside you have this famous photo inside the book?

Absolutely. I have a photo of both the 1911 conference, the first Salve conference, and a photo of the 1927, fifth Salve conference on Physics. And it's interesting to see that Salve himself was there at the first conference, didn't make it to the fifth. He had passed away. Even in 1911, he was 72 years old. So this wasn't at the beginning of his interest in physics and chemistry. It was near the end. But what he found was that it was important to bring together the brightest, most intelligent people in Europe in science and physics and chemistry to solve the most pressing issues that the scientific community was facing. And there was none more pressing than what was going on with the subatomic world versus the world of the stars and the heavens.

Newtonian physics, way back in the mid-1600s, Isaac Newton came up with a number of different things that stood science on its head, but the biggest and most important was the theory of gravity. Beyond the theory of gravity, he was able to take a planetary motion. He was able to take a look at the laws of motion. He understood what was going on with light and why it was made up of different colors. He understood a number of different things about how to describe all this in terms of mathematics. In fact, Isaac Newton created calculus. Now, that's not something that is done lightly. This was put together by Newton to try to explain the motions of the bodies in

the heavens. And as he put this together, basically what he was looking at was trying to understand how are all these bodies, these large masses connected, and could you mathematically explain them all? And so he put together this shorthand for science, if you will, called calculus, which basically was used to help explain the motions of all of these bodies. Things went along fine related to gravity, related to the laws of motion, and people accepted them in the 16th, 17th, 1800s. All of a sudden, in the late 1800s, people started to look inward rather than outward. Looking inward, looking at subatomic phenomenon rather than looking outward at the stars and the heavens. And what really moved that along quite a bit was the astounding

discovery of Wilhelm Rankin of x-rays in 1895. And the discovery of x-rays really opened up a lot of exploration by scientists into subatomic particles. The electron was discovered at that time. People were talking about the nucleus and people were trying to understand a little bit more about these minute particles that you couldn't see with the naked eye, whereas you could, in previous physics history, take a look at the planets and the sun and understand their relationships. Well, Marie Curie came along in the late 1890s. She and her husband, Pierre, were exploring a sort of side phenomenon that had come up with the exploration of x-rays. A respected French physicist named Henri Becquerel had uncovered emissions of uranium that were like x-rays. They weren't as strong. He delved

into them for a while, and then he put them aside and went to other things. Marie Curie, in trying to get her doctoral physics work done so she could give a doctoral dissertation, she said, along with Pierre, hey, this would be a great place to pick up some research that had been started but hadn't really been followed through, these mysterious emanations of uranium. And over the course of the next six months, she herself explored a number of different materials to try to find if there were other emanations coming from other minerals as well as elements. She came across actually a mineral called pitch blend that

contained uranium, but she found out something very interesting. When she removed the uranium from the pitch blend, she actually saw that there were emissions that were even stronger than uranium coming from the pitch blend residues. And so the hunt was on in her mind, hey, what is causing this? In short order, she was able to discover that there were two elements in these pitch blend residues. One, she named polonium after her own country, Poland, and the other radium, Latin for rays. And so these two elements she discovered, along with her husband, they were given the Nobel Prize in 1904. Now, is this the material we used for nuclear bombs and the Manhattan Project and everything? We use the theory of radioactivity, okay? And uranium is normally the element that's used, but radium is really a transmutation of uranium. And what she uncovered was that these things were

happening and that there was this tremendous emission coming from these heavy elements, uranium, radium, polonium. And where radium was actually first used was in medical applications, focused beams of these transmissions to attack cancers. Certain cancers could be attacked and leave the rest of the healthy skin and organs intact. And so uranium was actually first used along those lines, long before thoughts of radioactivity and relationships, energy and nuclear type of situations. Oh, wow. Wow. This is pretty amazing. And there was a bit of scandal too, wasn't there? Reading something about the French press and censors. There was. There was more than a bit of scandal. In fact, Marie Curie had a tough life. She was a

Polish woman who couldn't get an education in her native country of Poland. She came to France in order to get an education. She got that education in the Premier Institute in Paris and in France and one of the premier institutes in Europe. She got a physics degree. She got a mathematical master's. She was a brilliant individual. Meeting Pierre Curie sort of was the culmination of two great minds coming together. And they got married, had two daughters, and things were moving down a path that culminated in this Nobel Prize that they were both to win in physics. And then a couple of years later, unfortunately, Pierre Curie was run over by a horse cart, of all things, in the streets of Paris. And he was killed.

You know, just amazing. I should have left too soon. Too soon. Just a terrible accident. But the real culmination of that whole situation was that she was left by herself. And she was distraught. And she really didn't know if she could carry on. And after a couple of years, she started to see an individual who was a protege of Pierre Curie's

named Paul Langdon. And surreptitiously, covertly, an affair started. And that affair started in the 1909, 1910 timeframe. And when she went to this first conference, the Salve Conference in 1911, there were rumors swirling around about the affair, what's going on here with Paul Langvin and Marie Curie. Now, Paul Langvin was a married man, but he was unhappily married. And not only unhappily married, if you talk to him for any length of time, he'd tell you how unhappy he was and how much he wanted a divorce. Sounds like all my friends. And it was interesting at this conference, 1911, within the space of a few days found some love letters that she was going to publish in different journals in the Parisian press. And so she went from, it was a roller coaster, she went from a high to about as low as you can go. And she had to really run back to Paris along with Paul to try to defend themselves versus what the French press was doing. And they were basically saying, look,

here's a woman who's a foreigner. She's Polish. She's a homewrecker. She's going after a married man. And it didn't really matter that years before they had embraced her as one of their own, saying, hey, she won a Nobel prize and how great it was that she was part of French scientific culture. And things had turned sour very quickly with this situation being exposed. Wow. That's crazy, man. So she was getting a vicious misogynistic and xenophobic attacks by the French press, which seems weird because those seem like the wrong sort of people to be knocking that sort of thing. It was a two-faced situation, to say the least, because in France, there was a culture that was basically, you can have a mistress if you're a man, as long as you don't parade her around,

as long as you don't show her off and rub the French people's face in that type of situation. Here was a situation where Marie Curie was going after a married man where she wasn't given the right to have an affair, but certainly Paul Langvin was. The misogynistic nature of this was very, very strongly stressed in the press. And not only that, as you say, the xenophobic nature of, she's not even one of us. She's not even from France. She's from Poland, of all places. So they were crucifying her.

At that time, it just so happens that she had gotten to know Albert Einstein at the 1911 Salve Conference. And after she came back to Paris to defend herself, she received a letter of support from Albert Einstein. He came in, he stepped in right at the important time when she was starting to feel pretty put upon. And what he said was, hey, Marie, you're better than this. You're a principled woman. You're someone who is extremely intelligent. Don't listen to all this. He termed it hogwash. Don't listen to the hogwash that the press is pushing forward here. Leave it to the reptile to whom it was designed to entice

and go on and live your life the way you feel you need to live your life. It's pretty important in that here's Einstein, who had only gotten to know her a couple of weeks before at this Salve conference. And here he's giving support that's probably stronger than some of her French compatriots who were trying to support her through this situation. It was an interesting time, to say the least. This is a pretty smart move for Einstein. He always was a ladies' man, I think, wasn't he? He was. Supporting the ladies is good.

Well, you know, it wasn't that particular approach that he was taking, although you could see it that way. Well, he was just a hot guy. That's all I'm trying to say. Oh, Einstein is a hot guy. You can't go much further than that. We just do the jokes here. But Einstein was a very supportive individual. He was basically a person who was, if you're intelligent, you're the type of person I want to support, I want to be with, I want to talk to, and it didn't matter.

Man, woman, what he was really all about was intelligence. Now, in and of his own right, he had some problems with his wife. In fact, his first wife, he ended up, when he met her, they were students at the Polytechnic Institute in Zurich at the turn of the 19th century and the 20th century, and they were madly in love. Einstein madly in love. I don't know if I can picture it, but okay. That's the situation that you find yourself in here at the turn of the 19th century and the 20th, and they unfortunately have an illegitimate daughter. The daughter was basically lost in history. She either died very young of scarlet fever, or she was put up for adoption covertly. They never talked about her.

Seriously, sounds like a book. You could make a book out of this. I'm telling you. I'll leave it to you. Absolutely. And so as you follow the book along, what you find is she had been a scientist in her own right, attending this Polytechnic Institute. She didn't graduate, whereas Einstein did. He got a job, but it wasn't as a scientist or as a teacher. It was in the patent office of all places. He was distraught.

He was a patent examiner, third class. And it was a situation where, as you take a look at that, he wanted to continue his own exploration of scientific thought, physics thought. And he had been doing that with his wife. But once he got married, he dropped her from his scientific inner circle, if you will. And he palled around with a couple of guys to bounce his theories of physics off of. And his wife, who really wanted to be part of science, like maybe a Swiss version of Marie and Pierre Curie. It could have been Einstein and his wife, Mileva. But it wasn't to be, because he was a rather misogynistic individual as well. That's the way

it turned out. Albert was. Yeah. Jeez, Albert. Come on. I mean, expect a little more of them there. It's 1911. Come on, buddy. Get with the times. Well, he turned a situation which could have been a very interesting one with his wife into one that was shutting her off. And she always resented that from that time on. They had a couple of boys. They really enjoyed

them. And that's what kept them together for a while. But by 1919, they had gotten divorced. And she was always bitter. And in fact, Weinstein had a tremendous year in 1905. It was called his Honest Mirabilis, where he basically had a marvelous year, as they say in Latin. And this marvelous year was four papers. Sorry, I had to do that. Simply marvelous. It was like an SNL callback. Absolutely.

And this was a situation where he was turning science on its head. He published four papers that were just amazing related to their subatomic theories. And one of them was related to quantum theory. And not only was he talking about quantum theory, one was related to the special theory of relativity. One was an offshoot of that that was related to the famous formula E equals MC squared. And there was something to it with this guy. He knew what he was talking about. As a theoretical physicist, he didn't go and prove all of this. He left this to the experimental physicist. He said, look, here's my theory. Here's how I can prove it mathematically. But experimentally, I leave that to the experimental

physicist. The reason I bring up the special theory of relativity and his connection with his wife is that she actually has been thought by some to have contributed to Einstein's special theory of relativity. And why do they think that? In examining some of his papers that have been translated from German into English, there are some references to Einstein and his and working on a relative theory of motion. And you take a look at these references, and is that special theory of relativity? And there has been a raging debate since these papers of Einstein's were translated to try to understand, was his wife, Mileva, really a part of this or not? Now, a lot of scientists say, oh, that really isn't. Why isn't it? Because she never claimed any authorship to any of this.

He published his papers alone. She didn't come out there and say, hey, it wasn't just Einstein. It was me as well. And people say that in and of itself says that she wasn't a part of this. Now, who knows if she was or not? We really don't know to this day. But the reason I bring that up is Einstein had a very smart wife. Yet he chose to move on to, as you say, he was a womanizer. He ended up leaving his first wife for his cousin, his second cousin. Whatever, wasn't that smart? Was she hot? Maybe it was. Take a picture of her and you have to judge for yourself. Okay.

But the idea is she wasn't a genius, that's for sure. Oh. The idea is she wasn't a genius, that's for sure. And so he ended up moving on. And this was a situation that was so different recreate this with Paul Langvin, who was an up-and-coming scientist in his own France. And as I said previously, a protege of Pierre's. And she was very hopeful that she could move past the devastating death of her husband. And then that was all torn apart because obviously the French press would have none of it. How could a woman be a homewrecker like this and go against French family and cultural values? It was a very difficult time for her in 1911. The highs of winning a second Nobel Prize and the lows of having her reputation

besmirched by the French press and much of the French population who went along with it. Yeah. It's good to know that marriage wasn't working 110 years ago either. So note to self. I actually have some theories on where Albert Einstein got that energy in motion thing. I do. He got it from his wife who wanted him to do the laundry or the dishes and a body in motion stays in motion when he's running away from his wife who's chasing him with one of those roller things, the baker's things. That's what that is.

You've said it first here, Chris, and I buy in. I buy in. To a certain extent. This is book three or two. Really? Right. I think that the situation that's a funny one here is there's an awful lot of truth to Einstein's representation of physics that goes beyond just his own thinking, although he was really the pinnacle of genius. There were others who shared in his experimentation or theoretical experimentation by trying to help

him with the mathematical proofs of this. So he had good friends who were helping him along with that. He also had friends who he could bounce some of these ideas off of. Rather than Maleva and his wife bouncing a rolling pin off his head, he was bouncing his ideas off of some very close friends of his who he stayed close with for most of his life. But he really didn't have a wide circle of people who understood him because his brilliance was at such a high level. One of the few people who did was Marie Curie. And so that's where the friendship developed because they were high level elite thinkers about things that other people just couldn't wrap their heads around. He was an individual who in Marie saw someone who could understand him from that theoretical physics and mathematics standpoint. They could sit around and talk about relativity and everybody just sit around going, what's going on over there? I'll tell you what, Einstein often said that there were only a handful of people in the world

who understood relativity. When he came over to the U.S. on his first trip to the U.S. a hundred years ago in May of this year, he came over on a ship with a guy named Chaim Weizmann, who was the head of the World Zionist Organization. Weitzman was using Einstein's popularity to basically say, hey, let's raise some funds for a Hebrew university that's going to be in Jerusalem. Okay, Einstein went along with it. Einstein wasn't a religious Jew, but he did want to help his fellow brethren. And so he came over. And on the boat over, Einstein basically tried to explain the general theory of relativity to Weizmann. And people asked Weizmann when the boat landed, hey, do you understand this general theory of relativity?

And he said, I don't really understand it. But in the boat trip over, at least I felt, and Einstein's trying to explain to me what was going on, at least I felt he understood it. At least there was someone who understood the general theory of relativity. Yep. When you have only a handful of people in the world that understand what you're talking about, it is hard to get laid. What else can we tease out on this book to entice people to want to buy it? What sort of teasers might we share? So here's Marie Curie. She comes back from the conference of 1911,

and she's being inundated by incoming missiles from the French press. And what transpires? Within the course of three weeks, three duels take place. In fact, five duels were to take place related to defending Marie Curie's honor. One of them actually included Paul Langvin. Paul Langvin issued a dual charge to one of the editors of a conservative newspaper that was just tearing Marie Curie's reputation to tatters. And he said, meet me on the velodrome track out in the outskirts of Paris, and we're going to have a pistol duel. One shot, 25 meters. Let's see what happens here. They go out to the velodrome track. The second for Langvin is the one who's counting down the paces as these guys pace off their 25 meters, and he rushes the count,

and Langvin is turned around. His pistol's aimed at the editor of the conservative paper before the editor even has his gun up. Is there going to be a killing here? No, they both decide they respect the other too much and they're not going to shoot. So the seconds take the guns, shoot them in the air and say, this duel is done. Here you have a duel in the 20th century over a woman's honor. And you actually have five of them. You're talking about a situation that's interesting here related to how did the French cope with the chivalrous nature of what was going on and the smirching of someone's reputation. Duels weren't that uncommon. So, you know, that's one situation that's an interesting one.

Maybe we should bring that back. That might be interesting to bring back. They could, but I don't know if that's going to work or not. I think the duel itself, just the challenge, was interesting. Here's a scientist who's saying, okay, let's shoot at each other. I don't know many of those. I don't know if Einstein would do that. There's no end to what millions of men have done over the eons for the love of a woman.

Absolutely. It's insane. We get no credit for it either. So anyway, wonderful stuff. Anything more you want to tease out before we go out? Oh, absolutely. When you take a look at Marie Curie and you try to understand her relationship with Einstein, it was a relationship that was really on a very high technical level, right? Physics,

that type of thing. They were two people unlike any others, the two most brilliant people probably in the world at that time or close to it. And when Marie Curie died, Einstein gave an epitaph a year later at a ceremony on Marie Curie's behalf that basically talked about her shining virtue and her ability to think as no woman had. And it's interesting that they had such a close relationship, yet Marie Curie had a daughter who won a Nobel Prize in 1935, and her name was Irene. And Einstein was cordial, but not really close. There wasn't a relationship that Einstein carried on beyond his relationship with Marie to extend through the generations over the next 20, 25 years that Einstein was alive. Yet the progeny of the Curies was just tremendously involved in science.

Ren and her husband won this Nobel Prize in physics in 1935. From there, the Nobel Prize was actually awarded to Ren's sister for something completely different. Her sister was married to an individual in the 1950s who was the head of UNICEF, the United Nations efforts related to improving the lives of children. And he and Irene's sister, Eve, received the Nobel Peace Prize for their efforts there. So when you talk about receiving Nobel Prizes, the Curie family actually had five that they received. There was Pierre and Marie in 1903. There was Iran in 1935. There was Marie again in 1911 for chemistry. And there was Eve receiving a Nobel Prize in the late early 1960s, I believe it was.

So you talk about a family that has a Nobel Prize lineage, can't find one that's even close to the Curies. And I don't think you ever will. You talk about Einstein's situation. He lived a lonely life in his last 25 years. His second wife passed away in 1935. He came to the US. He hung out in the Princeton area. He didn't teach at Princeton, but in Princeton, there was the Advanced Institute of Research, and he basically spent his time there. His sons, one actually became schizophrenic and was institutionalized. The other became a well-known university hydraulics professor. And he never really spent much time with the one who became a professor and the one who was institutionalized. He didn't see after he left

Europe for the States. So he lived a rather lonely existence. But for a brief time, he and Marie were really, in 1911, the leaders of this meeting that changed the course of science because of their understanding of quantum mechanics, quantum theory, and how it collided with Newtonian physics to move physics off in another direction. The other aspect of 1911 was it shot Einstein's career path to the stratosphere. He was an obscure professor in Prague when he went to this meeting. By the time he left this meeting, he was being considered by a number of different people for professorships in Zurich, in Berlin. He ended up going to Berlin in 1914, developing his finishing touches on the theory of general relativity. And that really was exposed to the public in 1919. And he became the rock star of the scientific world.

There was no one who could hold a candle to him. And that all started that trajectory for him in 1911. There you go. And you capture it all in your book. Give us your plugs so that people can find out more about you and follow you on the interwebs. Well, the key is not so much the LinkedIn connection, but really I'm going to Amazon, getting the e- scientific individuals, 24 of them, got together and discussed how to move forward in the scientific world and juxtapose the quantum theory versus Newtonian physics was just a time that is like no other. And this book isn't about the

science as much as about the people, about Marie Curie, about Pierre, about Einstein and his wife, about Paul Langvin, about Ernest Salve, who was the sponsor of the conferences. And it's all out there. So I encourage people not only to get the book or the audio book or ebook, but to leave a review once you take a look at it. And I'm sure you're going to find it a tremendously interesting story related to these people who weren't just geniuses. They were people like you and me. Definitely.

Definitely. Thank you for being on the show. We really appreciate it, Jeffrey. Thanks for coming and spending some time with us and enlightening us on your amazing book. Well, it's great to be here. I appreciate it. And thanks for having me. There you guys go.

So pick it up. It's just barely off the presses. July 6, 2021. The Soul of Genius. Marie Curie, Albert Einstein, and The Meeting That Changed the Course of Science. To our audience, thank you for tuning in. Be sure to go

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