The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Third Perspective: Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance by Africa Brooke

Episode Date: May 15, 2024

The Third Perspective: Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance by Africa Brooke https://amzn.to/3WI7Cet AMAZON BEST BOOK OF MAY 2024 In our deeply divided, binary world, honest discussion is stressful for all sides. International thought leader Africa Brooke says there is another way: the Third Perspective. In this manifesto, Africa teaches us how to return to critical thinking and reduce societal divides by opening our minds and being more self-questioning in difficult discussions. This book will help you figure out what you truly believe—as opposed to parroting or having knee-jerk reactions in conversation. You’ll learn to share your views, hear theirs, make a point you feel must be made, and try to find common ground without self-censorship or self-sabotage. This personal guide helps readers move away from rigid thinking, allowing them to enter any potentially difficult discussion about politics, work, personal responsibility, race, sex, gender, religion — whatever the subject — while maintaining integrity, authenticity, and openness, and successfully expressing opinions while listening to contrary points of view. Africa has built a successful business coaching an exclusive roster of high-profile clients seeking to handle themselves in the public eye. The tools offered in The Third Perspective have been honed over years of that experience: hers is a proven system that works. She offers readers a new path for communication, and because communication is everything, critical to building trust and fruitful relationships, a life transforming experience. Africa Brooke’s framework has three pillars—Awareness, Responsibility, and Expression—that ask: what is stopping you from speaking your mind, what do you stand for, what are you willing to risk?

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com.

The Chris Voss Show. Come on. There you go, ladies and gentlemen. That's how you know it's official. There's the official stamp of the Iron Lady on the Chris Voss Show. For 14 years, I sung that line, and you'd come up to me at shows and events going, TheChrisVossShow.com! And it got kind of scary.

I always had to call security because I never know who any of you are when you run up on me at a show. We hired her to do it. So if you ever see me at a show, you've got to go find the Iron Lady and tell her how much you really like the show. And you'll like her little limerick she does or whatever the hell you call it. We have an amazing author on the show.

When don't we, damn it? There's never a darn time where we don't have an amazing guest on the show. Unless it's just me talking to the mic and then that's just a group of idiots. But the rest of the time, we have the most smartest minds that come to the show share with you their journeys their insights their expertise their cathartic moments in life their lessons they learned and as we always say on the

chris faust show stories are the owner's manual to life i need to put that on a shirt or a coffee cup and if you do it i'll see you so wait for me we'll have those those will be in the gift shop when you do the tour of the studio there's no gift shop anyway we have an amazing author on this show the very lady shit with her newest book that's just come out may 14th 2024 the third perspective brave expression in the age of intolerance just came out tomorrow actually with the book and we'll be talking about her insights and all that good stuff and what's going on in the world so we can be better darn educated africa brooke is the author she's a zimbabwean-born consultant coach speaker and podcaster she's recognized for her work in overcoming self-sabotage and self-censorship

she's the founder and CEO of Africa Brook International. She provides consulting, coaching, and support to a global audience. She hosts two personal development podcasts, Beyond the Self and Unthinkable Thoughts. We thought about making our show Unthinkable Thoughts, but no one liked the thoughts that I think. So I think people like her thoughts better. Mine are dark and dangerous, and it depends on which person I was talking. She's also a frequent guest on TV shows, podcasts, and radio podcasts. Her insights have been featured in publications like The Guardian and has been delivering

keynotes at prestigious venues, including Cambridge University. Welcome to the show. How are you, Africa? Thank you. Oh, that's a mouthful, isn't it? There you go. I love calling you Africa. I feel like I'm just talking the whole time. Thank you. It's a big one. And you know what? I love the energy that you've started this off with, so I already feel good. But thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to sit with you. Thanks for coming as well. And folks, we're hosting Africa today.

We'll have the, we'll have India on next week. No, I'm just kidding. So there you go. So Africa, give us your dot coms. Where can people find you on the interwebs? Yes. So you can find me the social media. The only one that I use is Instagram

and you can find me at Africa Brook with an E at the end. My website is africabrook.com just so you can get a full picture of my work and what it is that I do. And if any thoughts come up in this or something that you disagree with or strongly agree with, you can get in touch with me and we can continue the conversation. There you go. And if you want, you can box it out with her. Yes, please. That Tyson things. I'm just waiting for of a fight in my head. I don't know what's going on.

That Tyson thing. I'm just waiting for that Tyson fight with that one annoying guy from social media. There you go. So give us a 30,000 overview of your new book and insights the third perspective. So to me, and this is why I'm always so curious about how that title lands for people. To me, the third perspective, I see it as a call for people to step out of the binary. I feel like, and it's actually not just a feeling, but it's also an observation based on the data that I've collected, working and speaking with thousands of people. We're in a time right now where there's so much pressure, and I wonder what you think about this, Chris, to pick a side,

to prove your goodness in some way. Are you left? Are you right? Are you pro? Are you anti? Are you woke or anti-woke? Are you with us or against us? And especially now at the time of recording this, I know that people are feeling this more than ever. So to me, even though I started writing this book three years ago, I just want people to realize that we don't have to buy into these rigid categories that people are placed into. It's an invitation into that third perspective, where there is nuance, where we get to say, actually, I don't agree with this, and this is why, where we get to have dialogue without feeling like we need to force people to share the same

worldview. And the subtitle is Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance, because I think it's no shock to anyone that we're in this time where people are constantly walking on eggshells, terrified of saying the wrong thing because you might be cancelled for it, X, Y, Z. But I think we need to push back on this culture. I think we need to be more courageous. I don't think we should just accept this as the norm so through my work as a consultant as a writer as a researcher i don't just want to give people the why the why of why we've become

intolerant the why of the so-called culture war i think we're at a point where people need actual solutions and this is what i want to do with this book. I love it because we do need more of this. We do need, you know, we do need to talk to each other. We need to work together. We need to quit this extreme tribalism where, you know, and you put it just perfectly, you know, people feel like they have to pick an extreme side. Maybe, you know, I mean it i'm a moderate democrat i've kind of moved around from both sides of the spectrums and both sides of the political spectrum and i've talked about this on the show i think most people know but to me i feel really comfortable being a moderate

i think the extremes of both parties move the goalposts on me yes and where there was a time where i was republican and there was also time where i was a Republican and there was also a time where I was a liberal. And I probably still am technically a liberal when it comes to the liberalism of the Constitution and things of that nature. They move the goalposts with the woke folks. And I think it's really important. And the other thing you mentioned is

trying to feel like we're being forced to identify with either team and then we have to start running our pr and and talking you know with those talking points yeah and to me what i found very comfortable with being a moderate democrat is i've been able to sit with both sides and go okay i understand that you know this side maybe isn't a big fan of abortion, but what are they trying to accomplish? What is important to them? And maybe what they're trying to accomplish about isn't going about a way that's going to work for them or in a way that's going to work for everybody.

So how do we figure out how to meet in the middle? How do we try and figure out how to build bridges? And politically, we used to do that up until tip o'neill after tip o'neill right and we need more of that you know yeah when i have conversations with people now about politics and i only do it with people that are i feel are smart enough to be able to deal with it the first thing i do is i lay a foundation i go we're gonna lay a foundation first we're all americans and we going to have this discussion as Americans, not as, you know, left and right. We're going to have this discussion as Americans.

And anytime it gets out of control with, you know, your side does this, I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We're Americans first. Fuck all the parties. We're Americans first. The Constitution is our thing. Your thoughts on that? Yeah, and I really appreciate you kind of giving me more context into your experience of this, because I think our lives have become so heavily politicized. And I do really think something changed

fundamentally post-2016, with sort of the explosion of Trump and the level of just the polarization that we were experiencing from that point in time and the role that social media played in sort of entrenching these echo chambers where people are just shamelessly intolerant of any worldview that doesn't neatly match up with theirs. So I think for me, I think a big part of what I realize about this and I write about this extensively in the book but also in my work is that we have an inability to hold our own contradictions so it feels like it's a frightening thing to say actually I agree with that person on the right or I agree with that person on the left that has been labeled as woke we're so terrified

because we think we're going to be cast out of our group if we do so. I often come to the conclusion that because we are so incapable of holding our own contradictions and our own multiple truths, we can't do that for other people. So when we encounter people like yourself that are able to say, actually, I can see both sides, or sometimes I'm more in the middle, or I don't have an opinion, it feels threatening to our sense of self. Because we think, how dare you? How the fuck are you expressing yourself when I can't, you know? I think it's a lot to do with this sort of projection that we have as individuals. And then we come together as a collective of people that are so intolerant of themselves that they have no choice but to project it.

And we call that cancel culture. Yeah. Right. What are your thoughts on cancel culture? Oh, gosh. You know what? I coined a term that I think is far more useful, collective sabotage, because I think what cancel culture does, and I'll go into exactly what I mean by that. I think what the term cancel culture does

is that it's been so politicized that it's either going to preach to the choir, people that are like, people that probably label everything as cancel culture, or it's going to land with the people that think cancel culture doesn't exist. It's just people in power being held accountable. So I think we have a definition issue to begin with, because if we're working with very different definitions, how can we even have a productive conversation? But the reason why I call it collective sabotage is because so I have been researching and studying and trying to understand self-sabotage for the past nearly nine years now. And I realized that what we call cancel culture, which is a combination of public shaming, it's doxing, it's an intolerance of differing worldviews. It's just that projection that I'm talking about, but it also manifests

in so many different ways. It can only be made up by individuals who are in their own mode of self-sabotage. Individuals who lack awareness, individuals who lack critical thinking, who are driven by fear, driven by the fear of having their worldview shattered to pieces through questioning. So then we end up coming together as a collective. So to me, collective sabotage just illustrates what we call cancel culture so much better. But I think it's a huge problem, which is why I wrote this book. And I'm bold enough to say that my work and this book is the antidote to cancel culture because I haven't seen people fuse the why and the how. I think it's so easy to go on a rant about cancel culture, about the woke, but how many people are offering us tangible solutions

as to how we can actually start to navigate this environment that we're in? I think cancel culture is a very, very big problem. And at the same time, I think the language of cancel culture is not useful because it's not specific enough. And you find that we'll never come to a point of agreement of how to even fix the problem if we're working with different definitions. So that's sort of my thinking around it. I love this, the term that you've coined, sabotage. I think we do need to redefine cancel culture it's kind of funny i find it ironic and kind of hypocritical how both sides seem to seem to complain about it but then they both enjoy it they love it like

say i'm being canceled right now we're like we check this viral thing you're not being canceled you're just throwing yourself up on the cross and we need the wood you know it's kind of interesting how like it's a badge of honor on something it's fascinating isn't it i'm still waiting to get into culture i've missed out so far have you experienced anything remotely close to a cancellation or public shaming or anything of the sort considering how visible you are no i've i've you know sometimes i get shit from ideas on facebook sometimes people when you're a moderate people really have a hard time figuring i know i know it's kind of funny because it throws them like they're like what do you believe in and i'm like i sit and

i look at both sides and and i think about what's important and there's where america there's a constitution i've read the federalist papers i'm pretty familiar with what the founding fathers intended and i think that intent falls through and we have a lot of great guests on the show who teach me about everything democracies and illiberalism and and the constitution and what the founders wanted we've had a lot of that on the show and so it's funny because it kind of diffuses them but it throws them like a curveball like they don't know you know i mean i'm on the democrat side but you know i i i can i i really try i i kind of went you know what you what you've described is kind of what I went through. There seems to be this thing where the people who want to do cancel culture on both sides,

because they're both using it, it's just ironic. And it's basically this, you know, basically what you said, hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Oh, I don't want to hear your idea. Oh, it affronts me or it hurts me or it gives me a microaggression. But hearing each other's ideas, we've done this on the show. We've had a Republican congressman and Democrat congressman. I mean, obviously, we don't invite the toxic people. We've had plenty of people on here.

I remember the governor of Massachusetts was on here, the have the i remember the governor of massachusetts was on here the prior one who's one of the most popular governors in the in the nation and he was very good at at not playing the middle it sounds a little manipulative but but he could see both sides i think that's what we need to do more and we need to listen to each other and and but we both have to be open to listen chris i agree i i couldn't agree more and you know what's so interesting it's like all of this sounds so obvious it's yeah no shit we need to listen but it's it's amazing how if you start to actually observe the way in which we speak to each other the way in which we speak to each other, the way in which we react to, let's say, a Black

person that says, actually, I'm a Republican because we've bought into these. We're so obsessed with identity, which is something that I talk about a lot. So just a little bit of context. In 2021, I wrote an open letter called Why I'm Leaving the Cult of Wokeness. Please, if you're listening to this, go ahead and read that. Okay. This thing blew up within a couple of weeks. It was read by over 10 million people, 4,000 words, by the way, now, and this is just the data that I have now it's been read by over 27 million people, but it's on different resource lists. It would have been so easy for people to know what to do with me. And

in that letter, I was pretty much declaring that I'm not playing the identity politics game anymore, that I can see that because I'm a black woman and because I'm a left-leaning black woman, all of these identity markers, I'm expected to think and speak and behave in a very specific way. And it was just my declaration that I'm not going to be playing that game. I bought into it very briefly in the summer of 2020 because of everything that had happened with George Floyd, et cetera. And even though some very valuable conversations came from that time, and I'm very grateful that we had them, there was also very, that's when I really got to see the face of intolerance in myself, but also in a lot of people. I really got to see the face of intolerance in myself, but also in a lot

of people. I just got to see the binary thinking. I got to see just how the casual dehumanization of white people happening in that point in time and how it was just supposed to be seen as sort of normal that they're the enemy in some way. So there were a lot of things that were very frightening at the time to say, I am not going to participate in this. And I bring this up because of the thing that you're saying about being a moderate and people not knowing what to do with you. Because for me, as a black left leaning woman, that's I will not participate in this culture. It's very it's very jarring for people because it would be they would know what to do with me if I was leaving the left and going to the right, you know, then there would be, it would be a neat story. If I was the British Candace Owens, they would know what to do with me, you know, but it's so, it's so interesting

what can happen when you start to see where you're not allowing yourself to really think critically because you believe that you hold a certain identity. So that's what I want people to just be very conscious of, of where are you not allowing yourself to entertain a different worldview, be it your own or someone else's, because you have an alliance to some kind of identity or community or label, or because I'm a liberal, I'm not supposed to agree with this because I'm conservative. I'm not supposed to agree with this because i'm conservative i'm not supposed to listen to this person i i think i think for me the first and most important step is just being aware of where you're censoring your own expansion because of an alliance to identity yeah you perfectly said i'm going to read this letter i pulled it up on the oh yes please do but you know you're right.

When we start locking into our ideals and our belief systems, we close out other information or other data. And, you know, it used to be in America that we all saw ourselves as Americans, and regardless of our foibles over the last 200, almost 50 years, we've always been able to center on that one thing. Who's our enemy? Russia or China. But we're all together on that. Now we've seen that dissipate. And we are at these crossroads where you go onto these college campuses and you can't talk to them. A recent thing of the whole anti-Israel thing is I saw someone going to interview some of the people at the camps of the colleges.

They're going there right now. It's 2024, folks, if you're watching this 10 years from now on YouTube. And they were trying to interview them as to, you know, what their motivations were. And they wouldn't talk to the people. Yeah. They literally said, you have to go talk to the PR desk. And they were like, we just want to know what your personal opinion is. And they wouldn't talk to them at all.

And, you know, I've seen different other things on campuses where if anybody brings a discern you know i'm a big fan of comedy i love comedians and i understand the importance of comedy yes and you know being able to laugh at ourselves i mean jesus the last thing we need to just take ourselves too seriously if you've seen this thank you and and and you know comedians can't work on campuses that's when i knew something was really wrong at first i'm like it's comedy like you can't even do comedy on campus like this this is supposed to be the foundation of open thinking and learning and and ideas and debate you know yeah yeah it's interesting but yeah we need more voices like yours that bring us back to

a healthy perspective thank you and you know everything that's happening right now it's it's isolated in this moment in time sure of 2024 but even if someone is listening to this in five years two weeks five years ten years there's going to be a new thing a new thing where there is pressure to to prove your goodness is how i think of it And I think it's such a shame that in the place where young people are supposed to be exploring their wild ideas and learning how to be mavericks in the world, the people that are going to be the leaders of the world that we live in, being so afraid of even hearing an opposing view. And when I speak to young people, which I do a lot of the time, it's not that they don't want to speak in general with people they disagree with, is that they're afraid that they're going to be seen as accepting that worldview by their peers. So they have this idea that understanding someone and their position, being curious, is synonymous with acceptance. So something that

I speak about all the time is, and again, it sounds so simple, but it's amazing what can change when you understand that understanding someone's position does not mean you're accepting their worldview. And I think just that in and of itself can show you why we're so afraid of even entertaining an opposing view, because we think that that will experience cancellation by proximity. Yeah. I mean, that's what I get down the middle is, you know, people be like, so what do you, again, people should have their freedom of choice and their rights and what they want to take and do. And it's kind of what our whole freedom thing's about. Yes. And, you know, they're like, so do you support this?

And you're like, no, but I understand why family's important to them. And by sitting and being able to look at the two different arguments, you can then go, okay, so I see what's important for them here. And maybe the way they're going about it isn't working yes clearly and they're angry about it and so we need to find a better way and same thing with these people over here on the other side is so at that point you can start going okay so how can we find a way to cut down the middle and try and bring everyone together where you know this is a country where not everyone's gonna get what what you want. That's the way it is.

That's the way it always has been. And that's part of a thriving democracy is the fact that we can debate, but we're still Americans. We can debate. We can play with ideas. I mean, what made America great is we were the cornerstone of all the great ideas in the world because we have all the great engineers. And basically freedom and the ability to be rewarded for your contribution if you worked hard, if you came up with great ideas directly to that. I used to look when I was a kid at Russia and communism.

And it was a killer of the human spirit. The human ideas because it told you, we don't care how hard you work. We don't care how great ideas you come up with you get the same dole out as everybody else yeah so why bother right and you just you're just like okay i'm just gonna give up and have a little bread line here yeah and that's that's what it does and so and so we need to recognize that but that's the only time where you know now i have more thoughts where when i sit down i I look at people's polarized points. I can go, how can we design something that works for everybody?

We may not agree on everything right now, but maybe we can start there. And that's how kind of negotiations work. You know, you call your book The Third Perspective, and I think that's what we're talking about here is the third perspective the middle ground because maybe that's it is it is absolutely it's the idea that in every single moment especially those moments where we truly trick ourselves into believing that it's one or the other there's always a third way and sometimes even a fourth and a fifth and what i also like like to think of how I like to think about it, Chris, is that we are all embodiments of the third perspective,

whether we fucking like it or not, because guess what? You don't neatly fit anywhere. You change your mind all the time. Sure. You have your belief system, which is the root, but your worldview constantly shifts.

You meet someone who makes you think a little bit differently, but maybe because of your alliance, you push back onto it. But we're more fluid than we'd like to think. So for me, just what we're speaking about now, it's already so refreshing. And I can imagine that there's so many people listening to this, maybe even surprised that a black woman is speaking in this way, because again, we've been made to believe that this is a right wing white cishet man position to take which is just it you know mad in and of

itself but i i think one of the first things we can do which can really help lift us out of this hopelessness which i think we can all feel on some level is to admit that the culture that we've created is stifling us. It's robbing us of intimacy, of interesting conversations, of dark humor. When was the last time you saw a film where you thought, oh, that's good. They were able to do that. I can't remember the last time that I experienced a piece of mainstream art that was daring and risky, you know, and I think it's all part of that sanitization of just censoring slowly, slowly, slowly. So I think brave expression is not a nice to have.

I think it's urgent. Definitely, definitely. And you know, the other thing is I meet people who they've been one political party all their life. And I find that astounding. I grew up with kind of not into politics when I became a huge successful in business and i thought being a republican was the thing to do because you know it's very business

oriented and then george bush came along the w and dick cheney took over the presidency and i could see the money making that was going on with halliburton and the corruption in the Iraq war. And then 9-11 really changed my perspective because it woke me up to a worldview where I was like, why are people in the world hating us? I thought everyone liked us. And why are they flying planes into our buildings? And that made me go, maybe I need to find out, are we doing something wrong? Why is everyone hating us? I thought we were the cool.

And then, of course, I wasn't a big fan of the religious stuff that the the religious right that was being pulled By the W so I left the Republican Party at that time and I just thought W was an idiot And I still think he's an idiot. Hmm. He's a very nice man, but I'd have him on the show But I don't think he's the brightest bulb in the light category. But just imagine if I was still in the Republican Party and seeing what I see now. So then I kind of wandered in the desert for a while. I liked Obama. Obama was a great leader.

He had a great vision. He reminded me of Bobby Kennedy. And he's an incredible communicator and a man of integrity. And I just thought, you know, that's the guy. And so then I became, you know, I suppose you'd call him a liberal. And then over, you know, the George Floyd era and certainly the Donald Trump era, I became very woke. And I was really angry about a lot of things because I was getting gaslit every day. Yeah, yes. And, you you know i understand the constitution the the the rule of law and why

the all these things are important and and then after george florida somewhere i don't know when i made my conversion to going back towards the middle but somewhere it happened i think over last year but i just i just saw it becoming extreme, and I saw the college campus thing. I think it was the community campus and the, you know, hear no evil, speak no evil. Yes. I see people going to colleges to speak and getting shouted down. Gosh. The professors and the students.

You know, I mean, certainly you look at Woke now, and, you know, some people are supporting Hamas on college campuses. You need to go over there and visit, man. Let's ship you over there for a while. It's mad. I mean, even at the time of us recording this just yesterday, Jerry Seinfeld was giving his speech. I'm sure you might have seen it. And there was a walkout of about 40 students because they see him as a Zionist. I mean, to what extent is it someone just being Jewish by default means they, I think there's this very binary way of viewing things.

And I can hold multiple truths about so much of it because I do think we need more young people to be politically engaged, to care. But when does it become just purely virtue signaling without actually knowing what foundation you're working from you know so i think even as you were speaking one of the main things that comes to mind which i talk about a lot is that everything gets to be a case by case basis you know you get to think about it and to assess and see whether something makes sense or not and to ask tough questions even to yourself yeah i i think we need it i think we need it yeah and i think we need to be wary of politicians to try and push it to extremes i think we need to find more of

those politicians to talk down the middle yes there's there's one that's really big on tiktok and i think they they gerrymandered his position now but you know he gets on and he just does a straight talk and i like that we've had a lot of politicians on the show that i allow on that how you can have a conversation with them that's good that's good it's calm yeah we're not slinging monkey crap at each other and and so i like politicians like that and i think we need more of that i agree i agree yeah because they as leaders they inspire us that's what that's what the founding fathers wanted they wanted people who are the common working people and this and technically the smartest like scientists and other things yes washington

to figure stuff out instead we've got these performative crazies that they just they pull stunts i mean these stunts are crazy so your book your book details gives people more of a roadmap and how to get into that and it does and how to do that there's a framework you have called this of three pillars called awareness responsibility expression give us some depth on that, if you would, please. Absolutely. So the biggest case that I'm making just in my general work is that I think one of the biggest things underpinning cancel culture, collective sabotage, a culture of intolerance is self-censorship. Where you begin, and I'll just define self-censorship very simply. Self-censorship is when you begin to withhold your ideas, your thoughts, your opinions, your general expression, because you

believe that you're going to be punished for it. So there was a time where maybe you could have believed that you'd be punished by your family, your local community, but now you can be punished by a shit ton of strangers in a common section. Okay, so times have changed. So I think self-censorship is a serious problem because when you start to self-monitor, self-surveillance and self-edit your speech to the point of speaking in a way that isn't even remotely human-like,

where we put so many disclaimers and caveats and sort of Twitter speak, infographic speaks, it's just mad. To get from that into what I think of as mindful expression, as brave expression, where we can speak our minds and still be compassionate and still be empathetic and think critically and ask hard questions. A lot of people want to jump to expression. What do I say? What do I do? But we need to go through the phase of awareness. What are you actually afraid of? What do you think will happen when you speak your mind?

So I'm going to take you through all of that as the first part of the book, because again, it's not a memoir. It's not a rant. I don't think we need any of that anymore. I think we actually need something tangible and solid. So we realize and learn how to actually communicate effectively and more mindfully and push back on this culture. So we go through awareness. What are you afraid of? And then we go through a responsibility where you have to take responsibility of your so-called wrong thoughts. What? Because a lot of us, oh my goodness, we have become, so we think all of these things

and maybe behind closed doors, we sort of say, I actually think this way. I don't agree with that, but we won't actually stand in our convictions and our values and say, this is what I believe. I respect that this is your worldview, but this is mine. When we stop agreeing with things that we don't agree with to the point of denying reality. You know, I need us to take responsibility for our thoughts, take responsibility for your values and your convictions

without being closed-minded because you can do both, right? And then the last phase is expression. I need us to know how we're currently communicating. What is your communication style? A lot of us think we're being assertive, how we're currently communicating what is your communication style a lot of us think we're being assertive but we're actually very aggressive and very intolerant so you have some people and they tend to be my male clients which is interesting

who say things like africa my issue is not actually self-censorship more people need to step the fuck up have a backbone say what it is that they feel I do it. But they don't realize that they don't have a social filter. They don't have a refined social filter where they use discernment in conversations, where they allow themselves to listen more than they speak. So they say everything because they've also bought into this idea that to be brave in your expression, just give them fucking everything you have. Where the two end up being holding hands is that they're both ineffective in their communication, whether your issue is self-censorship or not having a refined social filter. So I'm going to take you through very, very intricate prompts and exercises and not just on a surface level. We go very deep in this because I need you to understand whether the way you're currently communicating is working for you or against you. So those three

phases of awareness, responsibility, and expression get you to a place of actually communicating, not just bravely, but also very effectively, which is what I think we need. There you go. I love it. You know, people need that roadmap to take a look at how to do things. You know, I've tried to listen more. I've tried to be more slow in my response and less reactive. I try to be more stoic in my responses, too. It used to be when people dumped their, you know, whatever the usual stuff was on me. It was reactionary.

You'd jump in and be like, but now I try to be a bit more measured and go, how can I approach this without coming across as a bully? That's what I do as a man, because, you know, as you kind of talked about with men, we kind of have a way about us. And that's kind of how we operate in a tribe of men with each other with other men but you know and it can and it can be useful in different contexts but we need to be able to use discernment to know what is useful here what is not useful here because everything is a constant negotiation you can't get people on your side if you're shaming them and berating them to wonder it's not gonna happen it's not gonna happen give me their numbers i'll call them up but it's a feature not a bug if you understand it but no you know i've i've kind of started to realize there's a bulliness to it where you're

bullying when you're shoving your your ideas of people and and you're like try it like you say trying to shame them there's a bullying to that shaming where you're and so I've tried to sit down and in my in my measurement of it or trying to be more measured and thought okay how can we have this discussion and how can I reply to them in a way that doesn't sound bullying it doesn't minimizing shaming yes but it's constructive it's kind of hard to do sometimes so i don't know here's the here's an example i'm dealing with this morning that's interesting so i have a friend who i just made a new friend on facebook i don't know why that sounds funny to me.

It's quite endearing. It's quite wholesome. I like it. I feel like I'm Mr. Rogers. Today we made a friend, boys and girls. I don't know why that's funny. But so I made a new friend, and I posted about how I was really concerned about generative AI and some deception that's going on.

And I'm concerned about the gross amount, percentage of people that are falling for really obvious fake AI. And, you know, it's not really that great yet. And if people are falling for, really, you know, you can see the fingers are messed up and the eyes are messed up. You know, when they have 10 fingers, it's fake photo people. I don't know why I had to say that. On one hand, I should establish because people are going to write me. You got that wrong. And so basically, this friend came on.

And so he saw the AI and how I was concerned about people are just not smart enough to figure out AI. And he wrote some stuff that's clear that he listens to Fox News and probably some other programming, manipulative, mind-controlled channels, not news. And so he made some comments. And I was like, okay, should I respond to this? Because, I mean, there's some things that you should just sidestep. And so there was a little bit of he was he was worried about losing his democracy and i'm like i think i can handle this one and so i you know

he said we can lose our democracy any second now under this current president so i wrote it back and i i basically tried not to bully and i said hey just just so you know you know voting is one of the fat one of the foundations of our democracy our democracy is pretty okay as long as you can still have the right to vote speak your opinion when we still have the constitution that stands there's no authoritarians running this country we're probably okay so you just breathe a little bit man and then i said you know it sounds like what you're describing is some of the news sources you're using probably aren't giving you the best information. You want to turn those off and do some more reading.

And there was something he cited that was completely debunkable. Oh, it was the Biden administration's flying immigrants into the nation on taxpayer time. You know, they're just wholesale flying people in their room trying to get over the border. And that's pretty easy to debunk. So I sent him just a link to that i said here's here's some data you and i go go search some of the other data go read a lot there's there's a lot of proof on this and instead instead what i got i mean he replied nicely to me but i got the whole laundry list of conspiracies and i got it's like a two-page thing of every crazy thing that you can imagine q and onish and so now i i just i can't reply do you have any ideas

i can bridge that gap or do i need to just sidestep that and just i i think i think sometimes it's just time and you speak to something that I also think about and is a key part of the work that I do. You are not responsible for how someone else is going to respond. I think that's ultimately it. I think you are responsible for being clear on what your intention is. Is your intention to change someone's mind in this conversation, in this text, whatever it might be?

But also you can't have any over attachment to what the response will be you have done your part so you have to just let it marinate for however long it needs to i think sometimes we have a an expectation whether we will admit it or not it's often subconscious but even conscious we want the person to respond in a certain way we want them to value the information we have just put forward how how intentionally grounded and nuanced we have been in this message so they should understand and get on but that's not how it works especially when the person has deeply entrenched beliefs and values around what they're talking about i think all you can do which it sounds to me you have done you can plant the seed but you don't get

to decide how it's going to grow when it's going to sprout or what that's that will take care of itself if it needs to so i i don't even think there's a neat conclusion to any of this i think you just have to both on some level accept that this is where you agree to disagree but him agreeing with what he does and you agreeing with what you do it doesn't directly impact your life really so i don't think it's right so i think sometimes what i'm trying to say is that we need to have a detachment to the outcome of a conversation or us reaching out i think that's very important again sounds so simple when you say but it's amazing how much the ego will not fucking allow you to practice that,

you know, because we want the person to agree, especially if we have any kind of personal relationship. It's almost like we tell ourselves, if you value me enough as a person, you will see things where I'm coming from. That's not how it works, you know. I love how you really have this down. You've really analyzed this a lot, and I'm just sitting here learning. And the way you describe it, too, is so easy to understand. Oh, that's good. You mentioned or alluded to not being offended by the response. Yeah. Where you feel like your ego's attacked.

And you're like, geez, I gave them smart information. I just took a giant dump on it. And I'm offended now, so F that person. Right. We're so quick to, this is another thing that I had to spot in myself first, Chris. And a lot of these things, I really want people to know, I am not preaching at you as some kind of expert. No. I had to notice these things and accept them and work at them in myself first.

But I realized that another thing for me was to just learn to observe my own ego in action as in what is my intention here? Am I trying to get someone to change their mind because I truly believe that I have something useful to say? Or am I leading with self-righteousness on some level? I know more than you. You are, you know, kind of with, again, we do a lot of these things without even realizing that we sort of assert our worldview. Sometimes it's positioned as concern, which I find so amazing. You know, when you spot it as yourself, I'm just concerned about my friends. So let me just give you all of these links to this.

So I'm always just checking myself to be like, Africa, do you really care if this person changes their mind? Or do you want to sort of assert your worldview because it strokes your ego in some way? So I think it can be very interesting when you take on the role of observer to be like, huh, that's interesting. What's my motivation to share this thing thing or to you know what i mean yeah yeah it's it's i love how you're having us really start thinking about our how we're receiving the data how we're interpreting it how we're reacting and you're gonna have you thinking more i've ordered your book on audiobook for tomorrow, I guess. And that's why I consume everything I do in the car and gym.

But, you know, these are things we need to think about more. Can we get your book in speaking on college campuses soon, please? Oh, my God, yes. That's actually part of what I want to do. I think if, as adults, we're struggling with this, think of what it's like right now to be in your 20s, to be a teenager. So I really want to adapt a lot of my work so that I can really connect with young people. And it already does quite a lot for a reason,

but gosh, we just need this. And I like bringing it back to the self so that it's more manageable because a lot of the time when people are speaking about these topics it's sort of just woven in academic jargon that no one can understand or it's just boring and it's I mean we we need to speak in a way that the everyday person will be able to relate to it and think oh my goodness I around a dinner table I end up agreeing with things that I don't actually agree with like why am I agreeing with things that I don't actually agree with. Like, why am I agreeing with things that I don't believe to be true? Why do I feel so anxious when a question is posed to me so that I can state what I actually think? You know, why do I get, why do I go into that mode of bullying when actually I would be served better if I was to

just retract a little bit and allow myself to be uncomfortable, but listen to what someone has to say. You know, so I like bringing it back to the self because I think it's just much more manageable and realistic. Definitely. You know, is there any chance you've started a group for this, like a Facebook group or some sort of group of us middle people, perspective people? Yes, I really, really want to, again, if anyone connects to this conversation and you really need it, just get in touch with me, africanbrick.com. And if I can see that there's a big demand for this conversation, I really want to create a community of people that can also meet up in person because i think also a lot of these conversations are only had online so people don't really get to see the proof of like-minded communities but i know that this is a conversation that people are craving that some feel like

they're not allowed to admit it you know and i think you bring up a good point the being with each other in person you know we understand we have more empathy towards each other yes we're more care caring about you know each other you know when we're behind that veil you know i remember i remember before social media there was a thing where basically the reason get road rage in cars is because you kind of feel like you're in this armored vehicle and cut off and so you're just ugly to people around you on the road, which describes most of California. In New York, probably. But you feel like you're protected.

And on social media, you're just seeing someone's avatar. Yes. You're not seeing the humanness of that person. And it makes a difference in person. But I would love if you had because you're you're such a great mind on this and leader if you had a facebook group or third party yes group where you had people like because i need a home people in the right the white nationalists and the woke people have a home i am i'm just you know it's just you and me at this point and i don't

know a couple other people we we need you know but then i don't know you'll probably start a facebook group and people start fighting over you're not doing the third perspective right no i'm doing the third perspective no the third perspective is done this way no it's done this way i'm going i'm a right-winging third prospector, damn it. It always happens, right? You know what? It's crazy you say that. That's something I think about all the time, Chris,

that you go from one echo chamber and you have to be so careful because you can neatly end up in another confined space. But yeah, I think I'm going to make it happen because we need this and we need to laugh. We need to laugh about these things, no? Maybe we could just, because I like the idea of this group because we can just laugh at everybody else on the left. You see what those stupids did today on the right?

Which is what I do anyway on my kids. Humility. So it's going to be a very humble group. See, we need to have you lead this and set the rules so you can be like, oh, you guys are being humble. Get in the line. There's no left and right third perspective. Not here. Not in this house.

Only the third. So there you go. Give people your final thoughts and pitch out the order of the book as we go. Yes. I really want you to know, again, that the way that I'm putting this together is that it's a roadmap that is specifically designed for you. It's not me saying this is your, no, you get to design this. And when you get the book, you will see exactly what I mean. And you can refine it as you change your roadmap changes as well.

And again, I think there really is a tangible way we can push back against cancel culture. And I know that this book has done that because I have tested this method solidly for the past five years with thousands of people. And I really do want you to experience this because I think the level of hopelessness that we all are starting to feel, I don't think we need to just accept it as the norm. So please accept this as my gift to you the third perspective there you go now one other idea for you and i know you're really busy and people used to do this to me all the time here's some ideas for you chris how much time do i have maybe a video series or a yes recorded movie series yes i remember i forget the gentleman's name i think he was an

nfl athlete but after george Floyd, he started holding these conversations. Was it Conversations with a Black Man? He started all these conversations. And they were really enlightening because they were calm. And they went viral. Oh, amazing. What was it called? I'm trying to see if I can jog the...

Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black man by Emanuel here it's cut off on the cutting off on the Google come on Google okay good going there Emanuel a chew at you okay I don't know if you saw the videos but he did it started as a YouTube series this is book and comfortable conversations with black men but he started a YouTube series after i think it was after george floyd was the proponent of it and he started sitting down and talking to people about you know and he would have rich really rich conversations and he would invite people who were from opposing thoughts like maybe some people who had racism and had prejudice against certain different ideals or political oh i love that and he would have a calm situation and and by the

setting that he would enable you know and you know a video series like that i know we had somebody just recently on who they did a they were one of the first people to do those those cards that you can get where you can enable conversation yes but yes several emmys for you know putting a couple together and having them talk about stuff they maybe never talked about and so if you ever you know i know you're busy. No, but I'd love to create something. I think that's why my second podcast, which is more of a show, if you will, Unthinkable Thoughts, is exactly about that. Bringing the things that we think we can only speak about behind closed doors, really bringing them to the fore. And again, in that same respect, having it in a way that isn't just antagonistic debate style,

who can, I just want to make really beautiful, potent work with this topic, because I think we need something that is not just fueling the division that we're speaking out against, you know. So if anyone listening to this thinks we can create something wonderful together, get in touch, get in touch. We'll do it, we'll do it it and then we have your dot coms right yes there you go you are the

person i'm betting on to save america so please do it's a it's on you don't don't don't feel too much pressure i accept there you go you will lead us to the promised land so thank you very much for coming to show africa really appreciate it thank you so much this was a very i can even just feel an expansion in my body and just you've really affirmed and validated my work and i i've just loved how much laughter there was in this conversation so thank you so much for having me and thank you i mean i found i finally found a kindred spirit in the middle because there's not a lot. I believe there's a lot of us in America. There are. There are.

We saw that where there are people in the middle across political spectrums to vote for whoever can carry this democracy forward for another four years. You have to vote for the Constitution and whoever can be the best steward of that. And we're all stewards of this. We just had Eddie Glaude Jr. on this show talking about how we're all leaders and we're all stewards of this democracy. Yes. We're all responsible for it. Yes. And I think taking on what you talk about and that we're all leaders and stewards of this, we need to have better conversations.

I agree. That's really important. I agree. Folks, order up the book wherever fine books are sold. The Third Perspective, Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance by Africa Brooke, out May 14, 2024. Go to goodreads.com, 4chesschristmas, linkedin.com, 4chesschristmas, christmas1, tiktok, and all those crazy places on the internet. Thanks for being here.

Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time.