The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Uncertainty Solution: How to Invest with Confidence in the Face of the Unknown by John M. Jennings

Episode Date: April 25, 2023

The Uncertainty Solution: How to Invest with Confidence in the Face of the Unknown by John M. Jennings A better approach to investing This is not a typical investment book. It is an experiential guide on cultivating the mindset and behavior necessary to weather inherently uncertain and unpredictable markets. It doesn’t just tell you how to invest but how to think better about investing. Referencing studies on psychology, decision making, and investment behavior, Jennings provides a no-nonsense analysis of the financial markets and a road map to navigating its inevitable twists and turns. Jennings uses mental models to create a latticework of wisdom that will help you evaluate investment advice and learn better behavior in the face of uncertainty. To name a few: ignore expert predictions, be wary of stories, and try to invest like a dead person. An engaging dive into investing psychology and best practices, The Uncertainty Solution is an authoritative, accessible guide for both lay investors and professionals inundated with financial news and data. Read this book to improve your thinking about investing, practice better investment behavior, and ultimately, have more money. About John M. Jennings John M. Jennings is president and chief strategist of St. Louis Trust & Family Office, a $15 billion wealth management firm. He is an adjunct professor at Washington University’s Olin Business School and writes on wealth management topics for Forbes. He has finance and law degrees from the University of Missouri and a professional certificate in Decision Making and Behavioral Finance from Harvard.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Hey, welcome to the big show. We certainly appreciate it. Our family and friends, the Chris Voss Show family. The family loves you, but doesn't judge you.

At least not as harshly as your mother-in-law, as we like to say around here. But I'm sure she's a nice woman. Anyway, I just like how that dropped off. I never dropped that off, but that just kind of dropped off there. Do you see what I did there with the comedy? I did. Yeah, I just gave it a hanging chat, if you will, as they call it in Florida. Those of you who grew up in the Bush era will recognize that reference.

Those of you who are Gen Z will have to Google it. Anyways, thanks for coming by the show. We have an amazing gentleman on the show. He's going to be talking to us about his latest book called The Uncertainty Solution, How to Invest with Conf confidence in the face of the unknown and what's really interesting about his book is he's got some behavioral science stuff in here some technology and graphs and data as they like to call it data you can google that as well jen's ears uh he's john m jennings is on the show with us today. He's got his new book out, called May 2nd, 2023.

It just is going to be hitting the stores here soon. So you're going to pre-order it wherever fine books can be sold. In the meantime, though, we have to extort you with plugs. So please go to youtube.com, 4chesschristmas, goodreads.com, 4chesschristmas, the big LinkedIn group of 130,000 people on LinkedIn, the big LinkedIn newsletter. Subscribe to all that stuff and guilt and shame your friends to join as well. Remember, the Chris Foss Show is kind of like

an MLM. You need to have five people. You refer the show on your downline, but you don't really have to because that's a joke, people. His book is billed by Charles R. Schwab. If you haven't been living under a rock the last, what, 30, 50 years? How old am I? I remember that whole. Schwab. If you haven't been living under a rock the last, what, 30, 50 years?

How old am I? I remember when that whole Charles Schwab thing started. He gave a plug to John's book, a must-have for anyone interested in developing habits that make them a more successful, lifelong investor. John M. Jennings is on the show with us today, and he is the president and chief strategist of St. Louis' Trust and Family Office of $15 billion.

Count them, $15 billion. That's a little bit more than $14 billion. And they're a $15 billion wealth management firm. As an author and speaker, he's a leading voice in the space of wealth management and leadership. His book, The Uncertainty Solution, is an engaging dive into investing philosophy and best practices, as well as an authoritative and accessible guide for anyone who feels inundated with financial news and data. He must have, of course, with Charles R. Schwab.

Welcome to the show, John. How are you? Great, thanks. I'm super excited to be here. Thereab. Welcome to the show, John. How are you? Great. Thanks. I'm super excited to be here. There you go. Do we give you enough pump on the intro? Yeah, if anything, it's almost too much. Well, we over-serve here.

We over-serve. It's good to over-serve the customer from what our ethics are. So, John, give us your.com so people can find you on the interwebs. Yeah, it's easy. It's John M., as in Michael, Jennings.com. John M. Jennings.com. And there you'll find a bit about me, information about the book. But importantly, I have a blog that I do sometimes once a week,

sometimes three times a week, but it's called The Interesting Fact of the Day. And you can click on it and decide if you like it and you'd like to subscribe. There you go. So what motivated you to want to write this book? Yeah, you know, I've thought I've had a book in me for a while. And it's really my main motivation is to tell people the truth about the wealth management industry. You know, I'll tell you, I've had a lot of people in the wealth management industry read the book, and they agree with it. But it's not the sort of stuff you're going to get from your broker or your financial advisor.

Like my editor, when we were working together outlining the book and digging into it, she said, she goes, first of all, this book feels like you're telling us there's no Santa Claus. Oh. Wait, what? No Santa Claus? Yes. Sorry about that. all this book feels like you're telling us there's no santa claus oh wait there's wait what yes sorry about that if you and anybody on this listening if you think there's a santa claus uh go ahead with that there you go there you go i'm pretty sure they don't allow children to listen to the show but at least they still have the easter bunny exactly easter bunny's alive and well hopping around um and she said uh you, is this book going to be controversial? Are people in the investment industry going to get mad at you? And I said, no. You know, at least the erudite ones, the well-read ones will agree with it. It's just, in fact, I tell a story in there of going to lunch with a broker. And, you know, we were talking about investing in different things. And he just said, he goes, wow, I wish we could invest like you do.

But because you're a family office and you're providing all these services, you can do basically the right thing. Whereas I've just spent all my time justifying my existence in selling. So I really wanted to help people see through all the noise. And secondly, we all deal with uncertainty or inundated with it, but especially in the financial markets, in the economy, it's constant. And to help people

have less worry, less anxiety around uncertainty in finance and in the investment world. That was really the motivation. There you go. So you wrote the book, and I think what's interesting, and I pitched that at the beginning because I think it's unique, is the behavioral science sort of aspect. Do I have that correct? Yeah, absolutely. And it's not straight-up psychology as much as it is really mental models.

People aren't familiar really mental models. And if you're not, if people aren't familiar with mental models, it was a concept pioneered by Charlie Munger, who is Warren Buffett's business partner, not as famous as Warren, but he's known for his wisdom. And in 1994, he gave a speech at USC's business school

about how to be wise and make good decisions. And he said, you have to have mental models. So these are models about how the world really works that are in your head. And he said, you need to have about 80 or 90 of them and you need to know which ones to pull out when. And so what I love this concept and studied a lot about mental models outside of investing. But then what I realized is what separates successful, good investors from

those that aren't as successful or more worried is that the successful ones have these mental models. So they create this latticework of mental models. And when they experience uncertainty, they're able to maybe not get rid of uncertainty, but focus on what they do know is real and correct and make good decisions and practice good behavior. Because successful investing is mostly about behavior. Yeah. And you have markets that, I mean, technically everyone's supposed to buy low, sell high. That's one of the formats. But people will buy on when everyone's buying and they'll buy in and then they'll sell when everyone's

selling. And it seems like a lot of people that are smart, Warren Buffett and others, they, you know, they buy, they buy in times when they see the models changing and kind of go against the market. Yeah. Warren Buffett famously said, be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful. And that is, that's an example of a mental model. I mentioned in my book, it's not one of my main ones, but that's incredibly wise. And you know it's true and that it's wise because it's simple, but it's not easy to do. There you go. That's really good investing is simple, but not easy. There you go. Well, I mean're you're always predicting the market and uh

it it's it's kind of a form of gambling although it's it's really you know not a form of gambling you you can have better odds in your favor if you if you play the market right and visualize some of the things you're talking about uh my psychiatrist does decide uh refers to me as a mental model but i think that's kind of a negative term for that reason. Yeah. So my psychiatrist therapist, who's both, he's hugs and drugs, is pretty great. He gets a big shout out in my acknowledgments. Without him, I would not have written this book.

There you go. There you go. Well, you know, there's something to be said about those good drugs. So give us some tease outs. What are some examples of, you've designed 35's something to be said about those good drugs. So give us some tease-outs. What are some examples of – you've designed 35 mental models in the book. Give us some tease-outs maybe of some of those. Yeah, and I'll tell you, you know, there's a lot of what I think are important ones. But let me give you the one that I think is the most important.

So, like, if you're a listener and you're like, okay, I'm not going to buy this book, but, you know, what can I take away from listening to the show? It's this one. And the middle model is called the stock market is not the economy. And here's what I mean by this. Economic growth or what's going on in the stock market, in the economy, excuse me, has zero correlation to what the stock market is doing. So going back to World War II, it's basically zero correlation. It's 0.03.

It means that they're random. So the economy can be doing great and growing, and the stock market can be down, and the economy can be in recession, and the stock market is up. Yeah. So it doesn't tell you what the stock market is going to do. In fact, it's the opposite. The stock market tells going to do. In fact, it's the opposite. The stock market tells you not perfectly, but somewhat predicts what's going to happen in the economy.

And, you know, as an investor, you'd prefer to have it flipped, right? If you said, hey, you know, I see that, you know, this or that, you know, unemployment is going up or our growth is going down. We may be entering a recession. You can't say, oh, well, now I should buy or sell stocks. Instead, it predicts what's going to happen in the economy. And let me give you some examples of how this works. So back, remember the financial crisis, 08, 09. The bottom was March 9th, 2009.

We were down 57% from the high. And at that time period, the news was bad and was still getting worse. If you remember back, things were horrible. Unemployment still was, the recession was still happening. Unemployment was still growing. It didn't peak for six months later. We had a sovereign debt crisis over in Europe. We had the U.S. Treasuries downgraded in 2011.

The news was horrible. Yet the market bottomed and increased about 640% from then until end of 2022. And then during COVID, so the market in 2020 bottomed on March 23rd. And at that point, we had 1, 1000 COVID deaths. The NBA was still playing. So was the NHL. You could still travel. And if someone on March 23rd, 2020 would have said, okay, I know this for certain, we're going to have all these COVID deaths and the international travel is going to be shut down and sports leagues are going to be shut down. And sports leagues are going to be shut down. And industries are going to be decimated.

And unemployment is going to jump to nearly 15%. And it's going to be just chaos. I think we all would be like, OK, I'm taking the money out of the market. But that was the bottom. It was up 70% from March 23rd to the end of the year. So the thing to take is the stock market moves in advance of what happens in the real world or the economy. And so the thing to take from this mental model is when you feel uncertain about what's going on in the economy, what's going to happen with inflation? Is the

Fed going to continue to raise rates? Are they going to cut rates? What's going to happen with what's going on in Ukraine or anything else politically that's going to affect, you know, are there going to be tax increases? Even if you had a crystal ball and you knew those economic things, it's not going to tell you what is going to happen in the stock market. And a lot of people would go, well, that's horrible. I want to know what's going to happen. But it's better to know the reality of it wouldn't help me even if I knew. And then what you do is you invest as if you don't know because you don't. And you invest in a disciplined, long-term way without trying to worry about what's going on day to day or it's going to happen next month or next year.

And I think a lot of successful models for that, you know, Warren Buffett and stuff. I mean, people invest for longterm, right? I mean, over time, technically, absolutely. But I hope like that mental model frees people to say,

I don't need to know what's happening or what's going to happen in order to invest. I'm just going to invest. I'm just going to keep buying or I'm going to just stay in the market. I'm not going to tinker. I'm not going to touch things. I'm not going to try to outguess anything. And I'm just going to let it play out and have a long-term perspective. And if you do that, you will be more successful than probably 80 plus percent of investors. Yeah. Because you never lose until you sell or the company files bankruptcy. So there's always that.

But no, the long-term aspect of it, and I love the graphs in the book. Like you've got a thing in here in that particular chapter on the stock market is not the economy, I believe chapter three. The S&P 500 index, the stock market returns and GDP growth. That was a very interesting yeah uh graphical model in here and then the positive stock market returns based on negative gdp um and uh it you know that's something a lot of people don't really understand like they'll i'll be like my friends will be like hey i'm buying tesla because it's like going up and i'm like you understand that it's probably priced into the market already so you're you're joining a train that's running that may be at the end of its tracks yeah and for some people they kind of found that out uh recently i guess and a few other stocks yeah yeah so i

that's a great point you know on buying a stock let's just look at tesla you know and i mentioned i mentioned in my book you know the exact you know tesla Tesla point in one of the chapters. I remember years ago where I was thinking about buying Tesla. And it was, I don't know, like less than $100 a share. And I didn't. And then it was up like 1,000% or whatever it was. And I looked back and thought, wow, I really should have bought Tesla. And I looked back and thought, wow, I really should have bought Tesla. And I

didn't. And, you know, I think, you know, at the time, you know, the Model 3, which was going to be the company savior and then was, you know, had production problems and it was delayed. And they're talking about, you know, that it was going to be sold for scraps or Apple might buy it. And you know, that Elon Musk's vision was fanciful. And, you know, I think it behooves us to all remember, you know, when we look back, like, what did you actually know at the time? And then when you're at that time, you got to ask yourself, you know, do I know something that isn't widely known that is correct? And the chances are with like a 99% certainty, you don't, you know, with a publicly traded stock. I mean, the information about that stock is going to be widely known.

And like you said, absolutely, Chris, it's priced into the stock. So if you buy or if you sell based on what you think you know, you're likely just going to be lucky or unlucky in the future. It's not that you actually know something that the other buyers or sellers of the stock don't already know. Yeah. I come from the old school of, of, uh, of, uh, investing. Uh, I, I trained to be a stockbroker, uh, just right before black Monday. Yeah. That didn't work out so good at moving into the field um but you know i used to get the big thick uh things mailed to you with all the stock charts over those days and uh i i made some

pretty good money doing dot-com trading and i knew how to get out of the at the top of it and did i made my mom like about four or five six times or something aol and uh and and so what about pe ratios do you address that in their book because i came from that world that i was setting up where nothing over 15 was yeah and gold was never supposed to go over 800 so yeah that's a good point um yeah yeah price to earnings ratio so that that tells you how relatively cheap or expensive the market is or individual stock and it's interesting when Vanguard did this great study looking at stock market returns going back to 1926, like 1926 to 2012. And they looked

at rolling one year periods and rolling 10 year periods. And they said for each period, we want to see what things predict, basically, what's the stock market's going to do. It's not quite prediction, but it's something called R squared. It's how much one variable relates to another, but you can think of it as prediction. And they looked at a wide range of things. And what they found is what's most predictive of the stock market as a whole, they looked at the S&P 500, and it's somewhat true of individual stocks, is its price to earnings ratio. A lower to price to earnings ratio translates into higher future returns over the next 10 years. Not over the next year. There was nothing predictive of what's going to happen next year. The price to earnings

ratios were the most predictive of anything they looked at, of what the stock market's going to do over the next 10 years. But it was only at about a 0.4. In other words, the price to earnings ratios only explain about 40% of the next 10 years return. And that was the best. So let me tell you what's less good than this 0.4. So there's things like looking at the, you know, it was looking at debt to GDP. So that was a lot less predictive. It was looking at something that's called the Fed model, which is when the dividend yield on stocks is greater than treasuries. That was like a 0.1. They looked at rainfall. Okay, this is a dummy variable. Rainfall, while it does have an economic effect, it should have nothing to do with what the stock market does it was a near zero

at 0.06 so only it was only explaining about six percent of what the stock market was going to do over the next 10 years but i'm going to tell you the things that were less predictive than rainfall are you ready yeah okay uh treasury yields really yields. Everyone cites that crap. Earnings growth. Oh, wow. Trend GDP growth. Wow. And on and on. Like, almost everything you read about in the financial news was less predictive than rainfall.

I mean, even presidents are running around going, we're going to have three GDP this year, 3% growth. And they're always predicting their growth rate, which usually never happens. Well, economists and politicians and financial forecasters are horrendous at predicting the future. Now, some experts, I have an entire chapter called Beware Experts Bearing Predictions. Some experts are fantastic at predicting the future. So like a doctor, if you have a certain injury or disease or whatever, they're going to be able to tell you not with certainty, but in general, here's how you're going to progress or not progress, right? And there's other experts, you know, engineers and things that can tell you what's going to

happen with things. But the problem is, is that the economy and the stock market and political systems is all humans interacting with each other. And we all have our own brains and our own emotions. And we're all watching everybody watch everybody else. And if you think about it in terms of a stock, I mean, for every buyer, there's a seller and every seller, there's a buyer. And each has about the same information or at least access to the same information and so if you're buying tesla there's somebody else going woohoo i sold my tesla right and and they may know more than you do right and well they know about that twitter purchase that what's his face bought so yeah isn't that the albatross around his neck these days yeah but but but you're right p.e

ratios are by far the best thing to look at but you can't really time the market it just tells you okay ish when p.e ratios are high lower your expectations the next 10 years when they're low you can go oh i have higher expectations but it only it's only about 40 correct there you go it's amazing but great point on price to earnings ratios it's funny you use the uh albatross around his neck i i wrote up a thing uh i think it was on my facebook and linkedin about how elon musk was the was the rhyme of the ancient mirror yeah yeah um one thing you talk about your book that i thought was interesting was the wisdom hierarchy pyramid. Do you want to share a little bit about that?

Yeah, so this was really important to me in kind of shifting how I viewed my consumption of news and information. I used to think to be a good investment advisor, wealth manager, that I needed to know basically everything, which you can't do. But I came across, it was really a great schematic and thought, and it's by this organizational theorist that came out with this in 1989. And it basically says that information can be broken into four different categories. At the very bottom, you have data. And data is things like, let's use housing starts as an example. So if you just get this data on housing starts from like the Bureau of Labor Statistics, you have these housing starts. It's raw data. There's a ton of data in the world. It's not very useful. The next level up is information.

So that's data that's organized. So if you take your housing starts and you or somebody else organizes it, let's say by single family versus multifamily and by zip code and houses that cost less than 100 grand, 500 grand, million, you can start getting an idea on what areas of the country are doing, how they're doing economically and different wealth effects. And you can start teasing out some insight into the economy. The next up from information is knowledge. So knowledge is taking information from different areas and putting it together in a way that makes sense. So you can take your housing start information that's not organized and put it together with unemployment claims and interest rates and inflation and GDP growth. And you can say, here's where we think we sort of are in terms of the economic cycle. And at the very top, and as you go up, each of these is more and

more useful, but less and less plentiful. And at the very top is wisdom. And wisdom is taking knowledge and knowing what to do with it. So, for example, if you have all that knowledge about different things going on in the economy and you say, I think this is sort of where we are in the economic cycle. Wisdom is knowing that you cannot time tops or bottoms of the economic cycle consistently or profit profitably and knowing again the stock market is not the economy even if you knew that it's not going to tell you exactly what the stock market is going to do and that's the wisdom and it's the it's the most rare it's um and again you know something is wise when it's simple but not necessarily easy there you go you know it it's simple but not necessarily easy. There you go. You know, I like the models and the graphs and everything you have into it.

Like I say, I used to be a big reader of graphs. I'm a big reader of data. And, you know, I meet people that will make emotional decisions, whether it was for, you know, buying real estate or investing in a stock, you know. I've had friends that, that you know they got caught up in the 2008 home crisis because they're like well i was my barber told me i should buy some homes up in bakersfield i'm like why would you buy four homes in bakersfield it's like four or five hours

away from me if you've got to manage them as a landlord you know just stupid stuff i mean i came to vegas at the at the peak of it right before it was about to blow. And we came to invest in Vegas. And I met with, I was a real estate agent at the time and owned my mortgage company. And I met with a few real estate agents that were here local. And they showed me, you know, what had happened with 9-11 and the inventory glut that had been created when everyone pulled their permits after 9-11, and how the inventory was finally catching up. And I said to him, I said, this thing's going to fucking blow.

And they're like, yeah, that's going to blow. It's a bubble. And anybody in this, and no one knew it. Meanwhile, I'd go down to the block, and there'd be people around the block sleeping overnight to buy homes. It was a crazy time but people just making these emotional decisions yeah absolutely and and you don't you don't want to miss out you're like fomo if you're missing out and you know there's there's this famous famous example back from the 1600s that maybe you heard of uh the the dutch tulip craze oh yeah yeah. So it's a situation where, for whatever reason, tulip bulbs,

not like the tulips themselves, but like the bulb, they became incredibly valuable where, you know, you could buy and sell a tulip bulb for, you know, 10 and then 100 times like what the average laborer in, you know, Holland made in a year. And people, you know, speculated and they took out loans and they bought all these bulbs. And the reason was it was kind of the greater fool theory. They thought it was going to go up and up and up and up.

And then at some point, people stopped buying and the bottom fell out of it. And there was widespread financial ruin. And at every time something like this happens, we think we learn. Like after the dot-com crash, we're like, oh, we've learned. And after the financial crisis, we've learned. But it's just human. It's human nature. You know, and you can look at, you know, some of the, you know, some of the meme stocks, you know, the things that, you know, that happened with, you know, like AMC and people doing stuff on Robinhood, some of these cryptocurrencies, you know, Dogecoin that is, you know, was put out there as a joke.

You know, Elon tweets about it and it goes up a thousand percent. And, you know, it's you don't if it doesn't have any financial substance to it, you're really just buying it because you think somebody else is going to buy it. You know, the NFT craze, which is, you know, you know, kind of people lost their shirts on. And yeah, it's unbelievable. There you go. Well, all the more reason to buy your book and learn data and approach it from a behavioral science. Cause when you understand human nature and human behavior, that makes all the difference. Fun fact, we, uh, we were actually going to call the Chris Foss show podcast, the greater fool theory. Oh, were you really? That was our, yeah. And we probably should have, have uh looking back over the last 14 years uh at least it would have described me at least for the thing but we

decided to go with chris washoe anything more you want to tease out john before we go uh yeah let me tell you one other thing um let's talk about like the the power of being inactive i'm going to tell you a really fun uh example of this so the these academics somehow got a discount brokerage who's not named in the study to give them 10 years of data on 35,000 accounts. And what they wanted to do is see which gender invests better. And the study was called Boys Will Be Boys. And what they found is that the best investors were single females, followed by married women. So the women were pulled down by their husbands, followed by married men. So they were pulled up by their wives. And then at the bottom were single males. And the researchers were like, why is this the case?

And what they found is both genders, regardless of marital status, were about equally as bad at uh investing so on average every time they sold something and bought something else they lost money like what they sold they should have kept instead of what they bought okay so every trade they lost money on average what they found was the reason why the single women were at the lead and the single dudes brought up the rear is because the single females traded 45% less. So the more inactive you are, the better you do. And then Fidelity, a few years later, in an internal study, said, we want to see the characteristics of our highest performing accounts. And their top accounts were those that belonged to dead people or were locked, usually because someone had a 401k plan, they'd switched jobs and hadn't moved it. So it goes like this, dead people, single females, married females, married men, single men. So always keep that in mind.

Whenever you feel like doing something to your investment portfolio, go take a walk, have a drink, do whatever you're going to do. Don't touch your portfolio. There you go. I mean, that really speaks to, you know, men are a little bit more risk into risk. You know, we like risk. We're riskers. But women are a little bit more into security and I think more risk adverse. And what men are in the financial area, women have their own areas where they lead. But men in finances and in investments are more overconfident. Women are overconfident too. But men are more overconfident when it comes to investing. And overconfidence is the mother of all behavioral biases

when it comes to investing. You know why that is, don't you? No. It's the cocaine. I was from Wolf of Wall Street. I'm being funny. Yeah, I jumped straight to Cocaine Bear. The Cocaine Bear, yeah. being funny yeah or i was i jumped straight to cocaine bear the cocaine bear yeah that

who when she wasn't you know tearing apart humans she and it was a she sorry if i ruined it for anybody who's gonna oh you ruined the movie yeah it's a she but she was an amazing stock picker that cocaine bear yeah there you go note to self hire a firm to manage my money that's got dead people in it. Wait, is that JP Morgan? Yeah, exactly. I don't know. That's not a plug for JP Morgan people. Anyway, I'm sure they're fine people over there.

You know, JP Morgan is a great firm and a very strong bank. Yeah. You could do worse. Yeah. I mean, it's, uh, you know, but it's, it's good. You have these models,

human nature is an interesting thing. Behavior is an interesting thing. Uh, I've been unfortunately studying it and myself and in my actions and other people's actions for 55 years now. So, uh, the more I learn about people, the more I enjoy my dogs.

Uh, well, John, it's been wonderful to have on the show. Thank you very much for coming on. Oh, great. Thanks for having me. This has been fun enjoy my dogs. Well, John, it's been wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you very much for coming on. Oh, great. Thanks for having me.

This has been fun. Thank you. And thanks, my audience, for tuning in. Order up the book wherever fine books are sold. And, John, real quick, let me get a.com out of you so we can get your plug in there at the end. Yeah, great. It's John M. as in Michael Jennings.com. John M. Jennings.com.

There you go. Order up the book wherever fine books are sold. But stay away from those alleyway bookstores. They're kind of dangerous, man. I had to get a shot after stepping on a nail on one. Anyway, fine books are sold. The Uncertainty Solution, How to Invest with Confidence in the Face of the Unknown. I should have had this sort of stuff for my first seven marriages.

John M. Jennings' book is out May 2, 2023. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. And we'll see you guys next time. You are a riot, Chris.