The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – The Way of the Wall Street Warrior: Conquer the Corporate Game Using Tips, Tricks, and Smartcuts by Dave Liu, Adam Snyder

Episode Date: December 10, 2022

The Way of the Wall Street Warrior: Conquer the Corporate Game Using Tips, Tricks, and Smartcuts by Dave Liu, Adam Snyder In The Way of the Wall Street Warrior, 25-year veteran investment banker and finance professional, Dave Liu, delivers a humorous and irreverent insider’s guide to thriving on Wall Street or Main Street. Liu offers hilarious and insightful advice on everything from landing an interview to self-promotion to getting paid. In this book, you’ll discover: How to get that job you always wanted Why career longevity and “success” comes from doing the least amount of work for the most pay How mastering cognitive biases and understanding human nature can help you win the rat race How to make people think you’re the smartest person in the room without actually being the smartest person in the room How to make sure you do everything in your power to get paid well (or at least not get screwed too badly) How to turn any weakness or liability into an asset to further your career

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the big show, my friends. The man who spends most of his life in an alternative universe.

I'm Chris Voss, your host. Thank you for coming by the show. We appreciate you coming by. You have no idea how quickly I just made that rough off the cuff. So anyway, guys, you know the drill. But in the meantime, we're going to be talking for quite some time today, maybe up to an hour, maybe 45 minutes, maybe 30 minutes. I'll let him decide. We have a Wall Street warrior on the show, a warrior, my friend.

So you're going to want to see that because, I don't know, maybe we'll hear some awesome battles in his amazing new book. But in the meantime, refer to the show to your family, friends, relatives. Remember, the Chris Foss Show is the family that loves you but doesn't judge you. One of the best gifts you can give this holiday season is refer the Chris Foss Show to your family and friends because it gives. It's been giving for 13 years and will keep giving. The best gift in the world. Plus, you know, it stops those political fights over Christmas dinner. YouTube.com for Chris Foss. Goodreads.com for Chris Foss.

LinkedIn. Subscribe to the newsletter, the 130,000 group. All the crap we do on LinkedIn. It's huge since every other social media seems to be going out of business or being taken over by insane oligarchs. Today, we have an amazing gentleman on the show. He's got his fingers in so many pies, we just can't count them, so we'll ask him. He is the author of a book that came out in 2021, The Way of the Wall Street Warrior, Conquer the Corporate Game Using Tips, Tricks, and Smart Cuts. David Liu is on the show with us today. He's going to be talking about his amazing book. And he is a 30-year veteran of

Wall Street and Silicon Valley. He's an advisor, author, entrepreneur, investor, and philanthropist. He started his career on Wall Street at Goldman Sachs. You may have heard of them. And then joined Jeffries, where he rose from the entry level of analyst to the executive ranks of managing director and co-head of the digital media and internet investment banking group. He worked on over $15 billion worth of transactions for hundreds of companies including microsoft google yahoo and yelp clearly you know he didn't get to 20 so i'm not sure how successfully i'm just teasing where day we're just going on he's a ceo and a sponsor investor to multiple companies several reach

multi-billion dollar unicorn status including internet brands web md you may have heard of that too uh that's where i go to spend a half an hour figuring that I've been dead for 10 years. Mobility Wear, Figs, and Volbalay. I'm not sure I pronounced that correct because I'm not French. Welcome to the show, David. How are you? Great. Thanks, Chris.

Thanks for having me on your show. And let me correct that. Dave. It's Dave, not David. I'll get that right. My mother calls me David, but you can call me Dave. Yeah. Well, your mother's a wonderful person, so I'm just, I don't know.

There's a joke there somewhere about me channeling her. But I'm not angry with you. She probably calls you David when she's angry with you, maybe, like my mom. She uses all the letters in your name. Yeah, David Alexander. Yeah, she's like, David Alexander. And you're like, oh, crap, she found out what I did. So welcome to the show, Dave. Give us your plugs, your dot coms, wherever you want people to start stalking you on the interwebs.

Well, best way to reach me is just go to my website. It's www.lucrative.com. So it's a play on my last name, L-I-U-C-R-A-T-I-V-E.com. And you can find me there. You can find out all about me if you want to stalk me. And you can also send me an email there. I respond to all the pings I get there. There you go. I respond to, to every, everything people send me except for Snapchat

for the most obvious reasons. So you wrote this amazing book. It's won a lot of awards. It won nonfiction gold winner, a book awards, bestseller on Amazon, hot new release and business finance. Give us a, what motivated you want to write this book? What was the thing that said, hey, put this in a book form? Yeah. So the simple answer to that is being a dad. So I have two boys. At the time, they were nine and 12. And one of the things that I had the privilege of was I went to two of the top business schools in the world. And as I was rising up the corporate ranks, I had hundreds of hours of HR and leadership training. And I'll be honest with you, Chris, I didn't learn anything at those schools or in leadership training to actually help me

scale the corporate ladder. And what you find in corporate America is that there's a lot of people that feel that the system is rigged against them, that there's a ceiling, if you will. For women, they call it the glass ceiling. And for Asian Americans, they call it the bamboo ceiling. And when you look at some of the data out there, for instance, for Asian Americans, is that Asian Americans are found to have the lowest rate of promotion within corporate America. And so given that backdrop and given the fact that I never really learned a whole lot about how to play the corporate game at school, I decided to write down a lot of the things that helped me in my career, frankly, for my two boys.

As I was getting older and, you know, you kind of start to forget stuff, I started to realize that there were a lot of things that I did to negotiate my compensation, to get promoted, to make an impression in the meeting. There are a lot of things that I did that nobody ever taught me that I kind of just learned the hard way that I wanted to distill to my two boys. So I started to put together what I call this Lou manifesto, this family manifesto. And it was nothing more than really this document with a bunch of bullet points and tips and tricks that I used in my career. But during the pandemic, as I was kind of brushing it up, a friend of mine who is a bestselling author pinged me and said, hey, what are you up to? What's going on? Just the usual shoot the breeze kind of stuff. And I told him, yeah, I'm just brushing up this thing that I've been working on for my two boys for years. And he asked me to send him a copy just to take a look at

it. I said, sure, knock yourself out. I sent it over to him. And he said, hey, man, this is good stuff. This is stuff that they don't really teach you anywhere. And I think this could really help a lot of people if you were to turn this into a book. And at that point, I was like, nah, you know, writing the books is a real pain. That's a lot of work. I'm not sure I want to do that. But after reflecting upon it for a while, I realized that I could actually use it as a way to give back to the community. I could not only share my secrets, if you will, with my boys, but also with the broader community at large. Anyone that frankly feels underrepresented or feels that the system is disadvantaged against them could pick up the tips and tricks that I wrote about.

And then I could also use it as a vehicle to not only donate money to charities, but also raise awareness of certain charities that are important to me. So I pledged to give 100% of all charities that are important to me. So I pledged to give 100% of all the net royalties to me to charity. And I use the book as a way to call awareness to several charities that may not have the branding of like an American Red Cross or Save the Children, but are charities that are really important to me. So I was able to talk about some of the work that I've done with Smile Train, which is a charity that helps kids with clefts. I was born with four clefts, so it's very near and dear to my heart. And then a whole host of Asian American charities that were focused on everything

from Asian American news to stopping Asian hate to helping just underrepresented Asians in the business world. And so that all kind of snowballed into something that ultimately became my book. That ultimately convinced me, you know what, I'll sit down and I'll write this thing and see where it goes. And as you mentioned, the book was published in November of last year. So the book's been out for just over a year now. And it's done really, really well, thankfully. And I think I've kind of touched a nerve. There's a lot of people that feel that this kind of advice is not really readily available. And the royalties have been quite good. So I've been able to donate over $100,000 to a variety of different charities from the proceeds

of the book. So all in all, it's worked out exactly the way that I thought it would, which is rarely the case in life. But I'm really happy with the outcome of the work I've done. The book's a bit humorous, a bit irreverent. You know, I mean, sometimes when, you know, we've had Wall Street folks on the show. Sometimes it can be a little stuffy. We had the billionaire, what's his face on the show? I afraid the name misses me. We had him on the show. Sometimes it can be a little stuffy. We had the billionaire What's-His-Face on the show.

The name misses me. We had him on the show and he was really nice. He was very funny. We tried to get him to be a little reverent. I think he's got a show on what is it? The big MSNBC or the big NBC channel

for Wall Street. Oh, it's Bloombergberg um that's not at msnbc uh but he uh you know it could be a little some of these books can be stuffy when you talk about you know i can tell you chris i have spent my life being pounded with these business books uh you know from all the books i had to read at harvard all the books i had to read at wharton to all the books that all my business friends told me, hey, you should read this book, right? And I'll tell you, 99.9% of them are books that come from the top of the mountain, right? It's like Moses comes down from up top and with the disembodied voice says, this is how you should do it. And it's usually

some kind of framework or some kind of two by two matrix or something like that. And it's usually some kind of framework or some kind of two by two matrix or something like that. And it's like, if you only did these three things, you would be just as successful as me. And I always hated those books, honestly. And so I swore to myself that if I ever wrote a book, it'd be a very different book. And I would only work with a publisher who embraced that ethos of my book. And I'll be really honest with you. I think my publisher, Wiley, which is one of the largest publishers in the world, I think they're a little nervous.

They're like, whoa, what kind of book is this, right? And as I describe it to you, hopefully your takeaway will be like, hey, this isn't like a normal business book. So first off, the book is about 300 or odd pages, but it's 30 chapters. So every chapter is relatively short because I know we live in the attention deficit generation and none of us have any time. The second thing is that I know a picture tells a thousand words. So I'm an amateur cartoonist. So every chapter begins with a cartoon. And so you've got

30 cartoons in there. And you can think of it as like my take on, you know, like a Dilbert or like a Farside, you know, it's kind of like, there's, it's meant to be funny, each cartoon is meant to be funny. But there's a there's an element of truth behind it. And thematically, each cartoon is relevant to the chapter that that's about to come. And then every chapter ends with three or four key bullet points. And my goal was really to summarize what I've seen in every major business book out there. And it's the following. Like every major business book, and I don't know how many you've read.

I've definitely read way too many. You read this book, and I don't know how many you've read. I've definitely read way too many. You read this book, right? And like I said, it's usually the disembodied voice that tells you, if you just do these three things, you'll be just as successful as me. You read it, and it's usually 300 pages. And then after you're done with it, you go like, huh, I'm trying to remember what I learned from this thing. And most of the time you can probably pick two or three, maybe four key things out of the book. And just to validate my point, there are these websites like Get Abstract and others that have grown super fast. And what they do is they charge a subscription fee for you to get a summary of a business book. And it doesn't matter how long that business book is, their summaries are usually under one page. So it shows you, yeah. So it shows you that the vast majority of business

books you can summarize under one page. So taking that, my own empirical learnings, as well as what the market's shown, I tried to make sure that if I wrote a chapter and distilled it into a couple of bullets, if there weren't at least two or three or four important bullet points or takeaways at the end of every chapter, then that didn't warrant a chapter. That warranted something a whole lot less. So what I tell people when they're thinking about potentially reading my book is the following, which is, I don't want you to read the whole book. What I want you to do is look at each of the chapters, there's 30 of them, and read the cartoon, and then go to the back and look at the key takeaways. That will take you at maximum 15 seconds, okay, maybe 20,

all right? And if you think that the theme of the cartoon and the key takeaways are thematically something that you're interested in, then invest the time in reading the chapter. Otherwise, just skip it. Just move on. My hope is that in this society where none of us have any time and we want the answer, and we want to be entertained, honestly, that I've created a format for a book that people find appealing. That's why, again, my book's a little different than maybe this billionaire's book that you talked about and a whole host of other books that they tell you to read in business school. Peter Drucker, that's like the driest freaking read. I can pick him on him because I think he's gone. But Peter Drucker is like the driest freaking business read.

It's like reading an encyclopedia on business or a dictionary on business. But, yeah, I mean, there's good books out there. But, you know, I like the format you put there. And I call that the Harvey McCabe model because he really broke the model with his swim with sharks and never ask a naked man for a shirt or never take a naked man shirt that he offers you or something like that. But he wrote that model where it was these thin, really precise, really just the core knowledge that he shoveled at you, but they weren't long chapters. They were just little chapters. And so I did about half of that in my book. So let's touch on a few of these things that are in here. I like some of the stuff you're in here. This one, because you come from Wall Street where there's a lot of smart people. I mean, these guys have got pedigrees, they've got college degrees from,

you know, Harvard and all these top schools. One of the topics you talk about in your book is how to make people think you're the smartest person in the room without actually being the smartest person in the room, which is usually, you know, what I do. Only it's the opposite, I think. So let's tease that out a little bit if you'd like. Yeah. So the simplest way to do that is to be like Jerry Seinfeld. And what I mean by that is that if you look at Jerry Seinfeld's background, and if you have any friends who are professional comedians or improv people, what I'm about to tell you is what they all do. Okay. Which is the following. They practice like crazy. They practice their material. They go to different venues. They try out different things

and then they create essentially logs of what seems to work and what doesn't. And if you look at like Jerry Seinfeld, he's been very open about, he used to go practice at the Gotham club and practice stuff, new material all the time. And some of that stuff, probably a small fraction of that ended up in his shows, in his main events, you know, where he would do some big performance, either his equivalent of a Netflix show or some big, you know, stand-up thing at Carnegie Hall, but he would try out his material. And so even though this may sound a little strange, I give this advice to all the people I've mentored and I've used this myself, which is that most of the time

when you think about the corporate life, it consists of a lot of drudgery where you're doing stuff, right? You're making spreadsheets, you're preparing stuff, writing stuff, doing stuff. But then there comes times within your corporate life where you're actually performing, right? And most of the time that's in a meeting, the most dreaded venue that you can think of. The Zoom meeting or the meeting meeting, yeah. Yeah, any meetings, right?

And most of the time those meetings are one hour, right? And if they fit into the Jeff Bezos, Amazon, ex-CEOs ethos of like no meeting should be more than what you can serve a single pizza to, that number of participants, you know, you might have a handful of people there. And therefore, if you kind of parse it out, most people don't have a whole lot of airtime. Right. And actually, that's an advantage. Right. airtime. And actually that's an advantage because what you can do then is you can really think deeply about what is the one or two things that I'm going to say in that meeting that's going to make people think like, hey, you know that guy Dave, he's pretty smart. He has some pretty smart

things to say. And then you jet out of there. Once you say the smart thing, you don't say anything else. You shut your mouth once you get the close. You don't keep selling else, right? You shut your mouth, like once you get the clothes, right? You don't keep selling, right? And so that is one way that even if you're not the smartest person in the world, right? If you're constantly preparing and you really prepare for that meeting and knowingly go into the meeting, knowing that, you know, maybe I get one or two shots at this to get the mic, I'm going to say something that's impactful, right? That's a very, very easy way to appear to be the smartest person in the room, even though you're not. And I want to counter that with something or give you kind of the flip side of that. So there's something I talk about in my book. And it's, again, something that I tell a lot of young people, which is one of the best ways to advance in your career is to be a stork and not a pigeon.

Now, you kind of visualize that for a minute, right? So what is a stork, right? A stork is someone- Delivers babies, right? Yeah. Delivers the baby. Brings value, right? Brings solutions, right? Oh, okay. And we know what pigeons do, right? Pigeons fly in, they crap on everything, and then they go, okay? So- And we know what pigeons do, right? Pigeons fly in, they crap on everything, and then they go. Okay? Why do you hate pigeons so much, my friend? Show me on the doll where the pigeon hurt you.

No, I'm just kidding. Well, I grew up in Hong Kong, so I love eating pigeons. Ah, wow. You have an issue. Yeah, we eat them. You might want to see a therapist. No, I'm just doing the jokes. So you'd be a stork and not a pigeon, right?

And again, if you prepare like crazy, you can appear to be a stork and not a pigeon, right? And again, if you prepare like crazy, you can appear to be a stork and not a pigeon. Now, what's interesting is that most people, when they hear that, they go like, dude, that's really obvious, right? Of course, right? And I know it's freaking obvious. 99% of advice is obvious, right? But it's the execution that's the hard part, right? And what I'll tell you is that after having worked in corporate America for 30 years, okay, so this is not like a small sample size, right? For 30 years from the bottom of the bottom all the way to the top of the

top, I will tell you that the vast majority of meetings are like this, okay? The meetings I've been at, I've definitely been in over 10,000 hours of meetings. So I'm an immediate expert. I'm sorry. It gets better. I hope so. So, so, so in the over 10,000 hours of meetings, most of the meetings I've been in, the vast majority are the following, right? A bunch of people convene and usually somebody's presenting something, right? That's why you're having a meeting, right? They're, they're either saying, here's a new product we're going to launch, or here's a new deal, or here's a new idea, blah, blah, blah. And here's what we should do. Here's some ideas, right? And then what ends up happening is that there's a whole bunch of people, usually sitting in the bleachers, right? Who go like, yeah, you know, but have you thought of this or that? Or like, I don't know about that,

right? Or this or that. Right. And then the whole meeting discussion goes around and around where people are criticizing whatever that thing is you're presenting. And then guess what happens? Time runs out because usually these meetings have a finite amount of time and then everybody bails. Right. So most people are pigeons. Right. They go in there, they crap on everything, they crap on your idea, and then they leave. Right. And so one of the ways that you can really differentiate yourself in life and in particularly career is to go in there well prepared with one or two things that are really value add. So you're the stork, not the pigeon. And then when people go back and they reflect on that meeting, they're like, you know, most

of those dudes were like a waste of space, right? They were just crapping all over this thing. And they're not helping us advance the ball. It is so easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. Like anybody can be a Monday morning quarterback. But the people that come up with solutions that help us advance the ball, those are people that stand out. And so when I thought about people that I wanted to promote that work for me, I always think about that. Like who's a stork and who's a pigeon? You know what? I don't need more pigeons. I got

plenty of those. I need more storks. True, true. Well, thanks, Dave. You've driven off the pigeon audience that we had, all five of them. So way to go, buddy. We're probably going to lose the pigeon ad revenue too. So for the sunflower seeds or whatever the hell they eat. But no. So a couple things to unpack there. When people crap on your thing, it kind of reminded me of my friend Andy Grignan. He used to tell stories about when he would pitch Steve Jobs and Steve Jobs would just rip you apart. But at least that was one guy. Do people, do people sometimes crap on an idea?

Cause I know what that's like in meetings because they don't want to do the work that might come out of a decision that's made. Like we should do this forward. Is it almost like we're, we're, we're in a crap on this cause we don't want more work. Is that, is that sometimes the motivation or are people just negative Nancy's? No, I actually think that a lot of us think that the way we show how smart we are is by pointing out all the problems. Ah, it's the quarterback you mentioned earlier. It's the quarterback.

I really do think the vast majority of us are either trained this way or believe that the way I show everyone how smart I am is to point out all the problems, all the faults. But what I think people fail to appreciate is that that's the easy part, particularly if you're creating something new or creating a service or product the world has not seen before. Obviously, there's going to be a lot of problems, right? When you're inventing the future, when you're inventing something, if you're driving something to a more successful outcome than anybody else, you have to be a little insane, right? Because otherwise somebody else would have done it already, right? And so therefore, there must be a ton of problems. So to me, if you're trying to prove yourself in the work environment, it's not by pointing out problems, it's actually by

showing value, by bringing solutions. Now there's always exceptions, Chris, right? If you work in a business or in an entity where the main thrust of the entity is to protect the downside and not do anything new. OK, then, yeah, being a pigeon is probably the DNA of the company. Right. And I could argue that a lot of insurance companies are like that. Right. They're they're about like, how do we mitigate our risk? How do we mitigate our losses? Right. It's not about inventing some new fangled insurance product that we can sell to crypto bros, right? That's not our goal, right? Our goal is how do we reduce our losses on the things that we've underwritten? So maybe in those scenarios, it is fine to be a little bit of a pessimist and criticize everything and not necessarily bring ideas,

but that's a very, very small minority. The vast majority of businesses are businesses designed to grow because if you don't grow, you die. And if you're trying to grow, you're clearly going into either markets that have never been created before, right? Where you can point out a lot of reasons not to go, or you're trying to take market share from someone. You're trying to go into someone else's market space. And again, you could argue till the cows come home about all the problems you're going to run into. So that's why I think most people tend to Monday morning quarterback and criticize. I think it's more that they think that pointing out all the problems is the way you add value. And I would counter that. No, I think actually identifying the problems is not

the hard part. The hard part is actually coming up with the solutions. Yeah. You know, we had on the show the Amazon, John Rossman, one of the, who talked about Amazon's leadership principles. I think this is the book we had two authors on. but one of the things that Amazon had at their offices was they quit having meetings before they would send like a pitch thing for like a pitch synopsis that was very short of what the idea was and what the benefits would be. And they would send that out first so that people could have a time to marinate in it. And I thought that was pretty brilliant. You know, you said something throughout that whole thing in the middle that you touched on that I really want to clarify to people, because this is really important in selling. You mentioned get out of there because you've closed, you've got to close. When you say, you know, something smart or ask a couple of smart

questions, get out of there. You know, there's an old saying, I think it's Shakespeare who says, it's better to stay quiet and be thought an idiot than open your mouth and prove it. And I've seen so many people, you know, the thing I had to learn in sales 35 years ago was, you know, once you get that close, shut the hell up. Because you can unravel a deal by opening your mouth, getting casual, getting stupid. I mean, whether it's dating, which I've done all my life, or whether it's a business deal, once you get that close, go cash check, go get it done. Don't talk yourself out of a close. I've seen so many people do that in a close, talk themselves out of it. And they get relaxed. They put their guard down. They get non-business. Or they end up telling their client something.

They're like, wait a second. This is a bad deal for me. I don't like this deal. Just shut up and let it close. So that's a real important technique. One other thing that was in your book, I'd love to talk about it, if you don't mind, is how to master cognitive biases and understanding human nature. It's really amazing to me that we're not taught human nature better. Explain some of that and what that's about and how you talk about it in the

book, if you would, please. Yes. So I'll be very honest about this. So I was not a student of cognitive bias and psychology, human psychology, until probably in the middle of my career. And I would say that I kind of wandered in the dark and got to a point where I was a classic middle manager. And I started to realize, huh, you know, none of the Asian Americans here get promoted and a bunch of them start off at the junior level and they never get past kind of middle management.

And then I looked at a couple of the people that were my bosses and my boss's bosses. I'm like, huh, I'm nothing like those guys, right? I'm really good at numbers. I'm really good at ticking and tying stuff, but I can't sell myself out of a paper bag. Like I don't know how to build a relationship. I never learned any of these things in school, right? Because I was a classic engineer and finance guy. There's a lot of stuff that I clearly don't know that I see is required to get up the corporate ladder. And so I started to really try to delve deep into, OK, so what is the secret?

Like, what's going on here? And a lot of it, I realized, came down to being able to interact with people and understand people and know, frankly, how to get people to do what you want them to do to help you. My bosses were really good at that, figuring out ways to motivate the underlings to do his or her bidding or to convince clients to hire him or her for their deal. So I started to study all these books and all this research around human psychology and cognitive bias. And the simple fact of the matter is that this is an area that has been researched now for well over half a century, so 50 odd years. And if you go to any airport in America, lo and behold, many of the business books actually have cognitive bias and some type of human

psychology underpinning their overall recommendation. And these are books like Nudge by Richard Thaler or Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely or Thinking Fast and Slow by Danny Kahneman. And when you when you start to read all these books, which I did, I absorbed all of them. You start to learn that there are inherent biases in the way that we act as human beings. And if you know what those biases are, then you can potentially use them to your advantage. Right. So, for instance, you know, there's a lot of research now around things like, you know, recency bias and the fact that we tend to remember things that happened really recently versus the past. And to go further, there's a lot of research around how we kind of have two selves.

We have the experiencing self and the remembering self. Right. And this concept is actually part of what got Danny Kahneman a Nobel Prize. So this is clearly a big time idea. And what it essentially says is you're actually two people. You're the person that actually experiences something. And then there's a person that is your historian, the person that writes down in your mind what happened. And usually they're very different, right? And so when you think about that, okay, so Dave, how does that help you in your career, right? A very simple way is that when you think about how to advance

your portfolio so that people think of you in a positive light, people think about you when you come up for annual promotion or annual bonus, one of the key things to do is always, always make sure that the bad stuff, the bad stuff that you've done, the bad stuff that's been said about you remains verbal. Whereas the good stuff is written down. Not in your annual review, right? The good stuff is written down. The good stuff is in your annual review. So obviously, when I was going up the corporate ladder, I wasn't perfect, contrary to what you might believe. And I made a ton of mistakes, right? I had some clients who were really mad about, you know,

I didn't get them, you know, 500 million. I only got them 400 million, right? I kid you not. These are the kind of things that I had to deal with. But I always made sure that things ended on a positive note. So even if, let's say, the outcome wasn't fantastic, I would make sure we had a great closing dinner. I would make sure that we'd have a great celebration. And then I would write a nice, long email or letter to the client and explain how I thought about the deal and how I thought everything turned out. And obviously, I try to put everything in a very positive light. And most of the time, they, yeah, you know, I know I was kind of upset about, you know, not getting 500 million and you only got me 450, but you still got a good outcome for me. So I'm really happy. Right. And what I find is that

many years later, that's the only thing people remember. Yeah. Well, the only thing they remember is the email or the letter that you wrote at the very end. And so that's one very small example of how you leverage all this Nobel Prize winning research around the fact that we're really two selves, experiencing and the remembering self, and you use it to advance your career. So part of what I did in my book was I covered a lot of different tactics, everything from negotiating compensation, getting a deal through committee, making an impression in a meeting, you know, all these kinds of things. And my structure is actually very simple. It's like, okay, here's what I think you should do, you know, in your career. Here's what I did, right? And then here's a little bit of science

that kind of backs up why what I did actually works. And so that's how I embed cognitive bias and human psychology in my book. And hopefully when people read it, they'll go like, okay, yeah. Your example, Dave, that you gave to get paid more, that really won't work for me in my industry or with my boss. But I understand the science behind why your tactic works. And maybe there's something I could do in my negotiation discussions that could help me, because I know that in the compensation situation that people are more risk averse than risk loving, right? It takes two times the amount of wins to offset one loss, right? That's another cognitive bias that I go into in my book when I talk about how to get compensated for your work.

That's brilliant. I love that idea of the closeout thing and leaving that impression. Is it also about not only being a historian and saying, you know, this is how I see it, this is how it happened, but it's that feeling that you give people that locks in that memory? Absolutely. Because people remember the way they feel more than they remember the facts. Right. And so it's really important to leverage that fact that you want. You want to leverage the emotional element and emotional elements are really powerful. You know, as we all know, the best way to sell is actually through emotion because that's how you really differentiate yourself.

Yeah, people buy on emotion. People buy on emotion, but even people hire on emotion. People promote on emotion. Wow. Emotion goes way beyond just selling a product. Emotion goes to the heart of selling yourself. And so when I counsel a lot of young people as to how to go up the corporate ladder. I, you know, I have a thing I talk in my book about, which is about, you know, kind of my ace up the sleeve when it comes to

negotiation. So that's one thing that the business schools pound into you ad nauseum. Like these are all the different tactics for negotiating, right? Because we all know in the business world, particularly as you get more senior, you know, negotiation is really part of your job, right? And what I learned was that all these negotiation tricks that you learn at Harvard and other places, right, are very, very, you know, perfect, right? They're like, you do X and they'll do Y, right? And then you have this thing called the, you know called the BATNA, the best alternative to a negotiated agreement, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff, right? And look, I'm not trying to criticize that stuff because to a certain extent, some of it works. But my ace in the hole was always,

always appealing to a sense of morality. Nobody ever taught me that anywhere, right? But the best deals I've ever negotiated for my clients and for myself come down to a very simple ask, typically towards the end of the negotiation. And that is, Chris, you do what you think is fair. Just do what you think is fair, right? We've been pounding at each other for days, for weeks, for months, depending on the nature of the negotiation. And frankly, I'm just going to let you have the power. So you do what's fair. Right. And what I found is that the vast majority of people fit into this first bucket. Right. They they they they love themselves. Right. They want to be able to go to sleep at night, right? And they want to feel like I did the right thing because I'm actually in the good, right? So they love themselves. And most people are actually,

have some sense of fairness, right? And so what I've found is that by appealing to that, usually you're able to get a little bit more of that last mile, right? You might not get all of it. It gives them that feeling of empowerment too. Yeah, it makes them say, look, I'm putting my, my, uh, destiny in your hands. You have the power. So you do what's fair, right?

Now I will also admit that there is a small percentage of people who are Lucifer. There's a small percentage of people who are like, awesome. Thank you for giving me that power. I'm still going to screw you. Right? And so part of the, the training, if you will, that we talked about earlier about trying to learn people, trying to get to know people is that your job is to figure out,

are you talking to the almighty or are you talking to Lucifer? Right. That's, that's the hard part, right? That's usually what I'm doing on first dates. Or, or he or she is doing the same thing

to you. I think they figure out early on that I'm a zipper, but chicks like that thing. You know, you bring up a good point, the emotion and the closeout thing. And I really love this idea because it works in customer service as well. One of the things I used to do was I don't argue with people. So, you know, we had a huge mortgage company for 20 years, a huge telemarketing department of hundreds of seats. Um, and so in the early days you would have people with the telemarketing, you know, we always had a, you know, strict rules of, Hey, if somebody doesn't want us to call them, take them off the list.

And so people get angry with the, with the telemarketer and start chewing them out. They don't want to talk to your manager. And if I was passing by, I was usually overseen by my vice president, but if I was passing by, they want to talk to the manager. And I'd just get on the phone with them, and I'd be like, I understand that you don't want us to call you anymore. We're taking you off the list right now. We won't contact you.

We certainly appreciate it, and sorry for bothering you. And they'd just be shocked because they'd be looking. They'd be expecting me to argue, whatever. But we were all customer service-based. One of the funny things was, is I would get these calls to my office and sometimes the mortgage loan officer, usually it was some idiot loan officer who's new. He would screw the deal up. He, you know, he, they would want a 30 year mortgage. He'd give them a 15 year mortgage, whatever it was, but they were closing and they were pissed. Uh, it was the funds we had, maybe it was, you know, whatever it was. But they were closing, and they were pissed.

It was the funds we had. Maybe it was whatever it was. And so they would get on the phone with me, and the first thing out of my mouth was, how can we make you happy? What do we need to do here? Okay? No argument.

I don't argue. They try to argue. I understand you're angry, and we fucked up. How do I make you happy? Do I need to give you $3,000 back? $1,000 back? I mean, I think the most I ever gave back was $5,000. We wiped the whole fucking commission. I did that a couple of times and you know, they would just, they would have blasted me. You're a piece of whatever, you know, you're this, that, or the, you know, the most ugliest shit. And you know, I get done, I'd be like, okay, I gave you your money back. I gave you, you know, we, we did

something to fix it for you. We went and fixed it to a 15 year, whatever. And, uh, I'd be like, okay, I gave you your money back. I gave you, you know, we, we did something to fix it for you. We went and fixed it to a 15 year, whatever. And, uh, I'd be like, yeah, they're never coming back. That person, they, they laid so much hate on me. I really don't want them to come back. Uh, but you know, they said some pretty ugly things during the negotiations, but in the end I just went straight for it. In the end I went, okay, we're making you happy. And I don't know why they're happy at the end, but you know what was funny? Those guys would always come back to me and they would sit there and I would be playing the history in my head going, I'm a fucking seizure. And they would be like, Chris, you know what? You were so wonderful. We really love doing business with your company. You know, you did screw that one thing up, but you fixed it.

And we would make so much money year after year with those guys coming back. Sometimes they were investors, so they would do multiple properties with us. And all it took was that one time. And I was always surprised because they would always come back. And I'd be like, I'm not really sure I want your money again, but I am a whore, so I'll take it. And maybe that's my reward for the money I lost in the original. But it was so amazing. But it was that feeling, you know, that they got from the ending that, like, this guy gave a shit.

And that customer service element that we're missing in so much business today. So that's the part we want to add. Your example actually leverages two of the classic, very classic biases, right? One is the recency bias, right? So, you know know the way you end is way more important than the way you begin right particularly in a relationship so the way it's not so much like how it began but like how did it end like how did you reach that i used the bedroom too sorry i had to get that joke in there and then and then you know the

second thing and this is super powerful too right it's It's the reciprocity bias, right? It's the quid pro quo, right? Like fundamentally, if you do a favor for me that I view as a favor, right? I feel a sense of obligation to reciprocate, right? And it's just nature. If you think about it, it's like evolutionary biology, right? Like that's how human species like start to work with each other and figure out how to like team up, right? Because if you think about it, if we were all cavemen and we all like, okay, what's in it for me? species like start to work with each other and figure out how to like team up right because if

you think about if we were all cavemen and we all like okay what's in it for me like why should i help you fight that saber tooth right i can get killed right but if let's say you know last time we went hunting like you saved me and you did me a solid right i feel like i owe you so i might go with you on that next saber tooth uh hunting trip. So reciprocity bias is so powerful. And one of the one of the tips I give to people that first start in their career, particularly ones that were a lot like me, where they're like, I don't know how to build relationships. I, you know, I hate small talk. I'm not good at that. Right. I just tell them, look, you know, the best way to build relationships with people, do a lot of favors.

You know, just go out of your way. If they ask for help, help them. Actually, by doing good, you're actually being greedy. You're helping yourself out because they will come back and they will help you. And it's almost like gravity. It's a human nature element that's actually hard for people to resist, unless you're Lucifer. And we already pointed out there's a few people like that, right? Those are our triotypes. Yeah, exactly. Most people are like, yeah, you know what?

I know Chris screwed me on that other thing, but then he did me a solid right at the end of that thing. Fine. We'll give him another chance, right? At the end of the day, he turned out to be not such a bad guy. Yeah, that's usually what I hear. We used to do that trick in car sales when I was a kid. You would, when you would first meet the customer and you sit down with them for the deal after

showing them the car and doing the test drive and stuff, you'd be like, well, you know, let's go over the numbers. You'd buy them coffee. And back then, we had these coffee vending machines. You'd go put a quarter in and, you know, we used to gamble off the cups because they had like blackjack on them. But, you but you know you go buy them a coffee and you know they they you know it was a quarter 50 cents for a couple uh but you know you're sitting here having coffee and people relax and you bought them something and so yeah like people forget a lot of this stuff in

sales like the i see this so many times now where they just go right for the throat. Like LinkedIn or someplace. You just, you just go right to it. There's no qualifying. There's no rapport building. It's just like, Hey,

you want to buy some shit? And you're like, what the hell? You know? So there you go. Well, you and I could talk for hours, my friend,

but we want people to go buy the book and get to know you better and buy the book and read it. I'd love to sit here and tell everybody about the book. One thing I did want to touch on was, and you talked about it, you alluded to it a little bit, is one of the reasons Asian American Asians, Asian Americans don't get promoted as well. And I reviewed a few that were CEOs here at Googling as we were talking, but a lot of them are thrown in as India based. So I'm not sure if that's the same, but evidently that's how Google, you know, the, the, uh, head of Microsoft and Google,

they, they claim to be Asian Americans, but they come from India. So I don't know how that works, but is the reason they don't get promoted and do well is because they're not self promoters enough. And I think you alluded to that a little bit in your discussion yeah so a couple things first off the the way america defines asian american does include indian americans no it essentially includes everyone in all of asia from north down to southeast to south asia right so it's kind of weird they shouldn't have their india shouldn't be their own thing. It's very weird. And honestly, it creates a lot of challenges because there's this thing called the model minority myth,

where people have this perception that all Asian Americans are, you know, good at math, super obedient, all went to Harvard, right? Got all A's, right? And there are definitely a few of us. Wait, they didn't?

Yeah, exactly. Well, you haven't met some of my relatives, right? There are some that don't accomplish a whole lot and are really lazy. That's just it. Dave throws his relatives under the bus. Exactly, yeah. The ones listening to this are like, what the heck? We just lost them off the show.

So first off, Asian America is very fragmented and it's really a whole diaspora. OK, but I will tell you that there is research done by Harvard, actually. It's in Harvard Business Review where they say that Asian Americans are the least likely to get promoted of any ethnic group in America. Is it racial bias or is it they're not? I think there's a whole host of reasons. But but that is what I'm sharing with you is the output. Now, you could diagnose this. Okay, well, why is that?

And there's a lot of reasons. But I think one of the major ones is that there's a lot of things that Asian Americans are raised with. They're actually not conducive to acceleration up the leadership ladder. And I'll just give you one example. And again, I keep using Harvard, and it's not just because they're my alma mater, but they've done a lot of research in this area. And in the Harvard Business Review, there was actually a study done around white males. So they just looked at white males, and they said, what are the characteristics of white males that

seem to climb the corporate ladder and get paid more than any other white males? Right. So they tried to take a control group. I said, OK, what is it? What differentiates one white male from another that helps them rise a ladder faster and get paid more? Penis size? No, I'm sorry. We have to do the jokes here. Yeah, they didn't go there. I had to get that one in there. But the one, and there were a bunch of characteristics that were kind of obvious, right? Oh, you know, aptitude, you know, hardworking, right?

Like, you know, okay, yeah, I got that, right? But the one characteristic that actually allowed for a separation between the haves and have-nots was a level of disagreeableness. Okay. So I'm not talking about like being a kumbaya and cooperative. It's actually the opposite. Like you're the kind of person who goes in there like a bull in a China shop and goes like, Hey man, like, why are we doing it this way? This is not the way to do it. And unfortunately, or fortunately, when you look at corporate America, there's a lot of examples of people like that, right? You mentioned a few of them already, like Steve Jobs, right? Steve Jobs was notorious for being a very disagreeable person, right? Yeah. And we're seeing this in real time with a few other people that are creating a lot

of controversy, using their wealth to buy social media companies, right? There's a lot of these visionary people that have risen to the top who are breaking glass and they don't care. Right. And if you think about that, I'm not judging whether or not you need that superpower or not. OK, I'm just telling you what the facts show, that disagreeableness is highly correlated with success in corporate America as well as compensation. Disagreeableness is one of the elements That runs completely counter To Asian American upbringing Asian American upbringing Particularly if you're East Asian

Is steeped in Confucian values And Confucian values Were developed by Confucius Around like hierarchy And making sure that you understood Where you sat within the hierarchy And you respected your elders You respected youriors. That is not how disagreeable people work. Disagreeable people look at their boss and go like, how does this Nimrod, my boss,

I can do his job, right? I'm going to figure out how to get his job, right? Whereas if you're, if you're raised in a traditional Asian American household, you're not supposed to do that. And so I just give you that as one very small example of how I think some of the cultural elements that help Asian Americans, frankly, at the junior level, actually hurt them at the senior level as they're trying to move up the corporate ladder. You know, you bring up a good point. I mean, business and work is a masculine business. Now women can be masculine and most women have to go into their masculine to, to be success in business. Um, and one of the, one of the same failures that women run into is, you know, their egalitarianism. So, you know, they're, they're more socialist based and they're more

social, you know, let's sit and have a picnic with each other. They're more of like, you know, everybody, help everybody rise. And that disagreeableness is really the thing. It's a killer business. Business is about killing. It's hunting and killing. It's cavemen, mammoth, hunt shit down, kill it, kill the other tribe. You know, people follow leaders who are killers women follow

men who are killers i mean there's there's epistrophelia if you understand how that works with prison um where women chase guys in prison who are killers and criminals they people want killers because they want people to defend them and whether there's a ceo in a tribe of business or a ceo or or a man in his life they want people want to follow somebody who's a CEO in a tribe of business or a CEO or a man in his life, people want to follow somebody who's a killer, who's going to defend the tribe, who's going to protect the tribe, who's willing to go to whatever the extreme lengths are. If you or I get into a fight as men, the highest point that we can go to kill is to kill each other. With women, the highest point they would go is they'll just talk badly about each other behind their backs and try to straight to their socialness.

So I think it's interesting, the same paradigm that you're presenting with Asian-Americans, because I'm always curious about this stuff and how it works, is that disagreeableness. You know, I've got a lot of Asian-American friends, and yeah, they talk about their tiger moms. And I know tiger mom is kind of a stereotypical thing, but all my friends that are successful in Silicon Valley, they had Tiger Moms. And they talk about it.

One of the problems or one of the challenges on the Tiger Mom thing is that the Tiger Mom ends once you finish education, right? There's no such thing as a Tiger Mom that helps you with your career. Oh, yeah. Right? Well, she just judges you after that. Yeah, she judges you. She's like, why aren't you a doctor, right? But the reality is that you kind of want to have that killer instinct continue. Actually, it's more important once you reach

a corporate world than it is in education. And let me tell you why. If it's not obvious to your audience or to people in general is that as you go up the corporate ladder, the power and the compensation grow exponentially, like exponentially, right? Even parabolically. Like you look at, I just saw an article today where the three CEOs in Silicon Valley, if you add their compensation, the three of them pulled off, you know, half a billion dollars, one year's worth of work for three guys. Okay. half a billion dollars, one year's worth of work for three guys. And the guy who got the most, I think he's getting paid 100,000 times more than the entry-level people at his company. That sounds like my ex-wife's Amazon cart. So you know the pain, right? You look at that and go, what the heck?

But because the compensation and the power grow exponentially, the stakes grow exponentially. And therefore, you need to think about how do I play this game to win if I want to win? Like a lot of people just check out. They go, yeah, I don't want to win. I don't want to be the CEO. I don't want to be the VP. I don't want to be that guy. Right.

But most of us want to reach some level of financial security, you know, power, you know, et cetera. And so we need to think about how do I play this game where the stakes grow exponentially and therefore the things people are willing to do to get to the top expand exponentially. And that's why I think this notion of having some type of killer instinct, having an inner tiger, if you will, is actually really important as you move up the corporate ladder. It doesn't matter so much in college. It doesn't matter, frankly, at the junior level, but it matters a lot if you want to go up to the top. If you really understand human nature, and that's why I'm glad you touched on or talked about in the book.

I'm not sure how much you put in the book. But, you know, if you study the dark triad traits of human beings, especially men, and why we're built the way we are and why we succeed as masters of business. It's really interesting if you study that. So I'll just put that out there. Someone can Google dark triad. I wouldn't advise becoming an outright narcissist, but you can definitely play on those attributes. So let me ask you this. I read, this was like 30 years ago, I read this in Harvard Business Review, that one of the challenges, the other challenges that women had, not just the disagreeableness issue, but they don't tribe up well. And they tend to slice and dice each other and sabotage each other, just like they do with mates.

And so that's one of the reasons they were struggling at the time to break through the ceiling. You've seen women get really good at it. And there's a lot of women that are very successful nowadays because they've learned to tribe up with men and, and, and play the tribe game. Uh, are, are Asian Americans good at that? The tribal thing? Because what they basically researched was that in a lot of times in a corporation, the tribe moves up to the top and eventually achieves the top. The men help each other get to the top. And it's like a moly mammoth battle. So are Asian Americans good at that tribalism? I think they are, but I'm not sure it's any better than any other ethnic group. I think one of the overall challenges with creating like a tribe within a company, so I'm not talking about external, you know, I think actually that's my usual recommendation. I recommend people create tribes outside of companies because then you're not in competition with your other tribe members. And one of the challenges that if you are in a tribe within a company, the best tribe

is actually for you to tribe up where your tribe includes your boss and your boss's boss. That's why whenever women and people of color come to me and ask me for advice, I say the first thing, look for someone that's the same gender and ethnicity as you in your company, hopefully more senior than you. Because they have gone through a lot of the land mines and politicking and gaming that you will have to learn the hard way. But they can, if they see in you, maybe a younger version of themselves, maybe a mentee, then they might be willing to help you, right? So I think if you tribe up, and I do see this in a lot of companies, if you tribe up based on gender or ethnicity, I think that can be really effective if you tribe up. Where I haven't seen it be, frankly, that effective is

when you tribe with peers. Because corporate America is, spoiler alert, it's a pyramid, right? We don't have the same number of CEOs as we have a number of junior people, right? As you go up the corporate ladder, the number of seats declines, right? And guess what? At some point, you may be effectively vying for a position that other members of your tribe are vying for. And unfortunately, given all the bias in the existing system, right?

If you're a woman or if you're a person of color, there's a lot of bias against you. Whether you wanna admit it or not, there's a ton, right? That's why we have things like ceilings, like glass ceiling, bamboo ceiling, some of these terms, right? So where I have seen a little bit of what you're alluding to as it relates to some women, and this is purely anecdotal, not scientific, I don't have any data on this, but I have seen a little bit of fragmentation of the tribe when there is a view among the same gender or same ethnic group that there's only one seat available

for people of our color or one seat available for my gender and you're in competition with me. That's where I've seen the fragmentation. And I think, I'm glad you clarified that because that's one of the things I talked about, but I've never really thought, I mean, it just makes sense.

I just call it the general tribe, but. that's why tribing i think is good in the ideal world you tribe up yeah because that if you help that guy above you when he hits the pinnacle he's going to call you and then you're second in line or or everything you see that in presidential things where you know people will play well i'll take second place, you know, people will play, well, I'll take second place. And, you know, they, they, they get that call. Um, you know, I've seen it firsthand in all my corporations. And when with women, uh, you know, the thing that the sabotage element, uh, comes into play, like I, I'll have an open office and, you know, Margaret comes in and starts telling me about Betty and how awful Betty is. And then, you know, Betty comes in and starts telling me about Betty and how awful Betty is. And then Betty comes in and starts telling me how Margaret is. And then Betty starts coming in and telling me how bad Chris is.

And you're just like, do you understand what's going on and what we see? You've got to tribe up. You can't be seen as the person who's undercutting everybody because we know who you are. If you're the shit talker, we know who you are. So you've got to use different elements. And I think, I can't think of any examples, but I know there's a lot of women who've could become very successful in business because they've learned to play the tribal man game and they've learned to build alliances with men and, and move up. Um, so I think that's important.

Let me ask you this, cause this, this really is something I think about and I'm curious about. The culture of like Japanese, and I believe it's the same in Korean people, is very different than U.S. culture. And they're very mannered. They're very orderly. There's the apologetic nature that they have where they, you know, apologize. You saw like the Fukushima nuclear meltdown. You saw like the, the Fukushima, uh, nuclear meltdown, you saw the, the apologies, you know, they, they, they have a really, um, just to me, it's a better culture, but you know,

they, they apologize, they take accountability, they're, they're more pleasing, they're more pleasant people. At least that's what I've, uh, my perception is that maybe a detriment to them when they're trying to rise up in American corporate political ladders of the corporate world? So a couple of comments on that. First off is that I generally hate to make generalizations about a country because for every Korean or Japanese that you just mentioned with that characteristic, I know someone personally completely the opposite, but I get what you're saying. I will say in general, just like what I

said earlier about the deferential nature of Asian Americans towards hierarchy and seniority, age, you don't talk back to your parents. These general values are embedded in Confucian values of which the Eastern Asian cultures, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, they have a lot of that embedded in the culture. Right. And like I said earlier, I definitely think that that is a superpower at the junior level, because who wouldn't want a bunch of junior people that are very differential, that work really hard, that don't question my authority or my judgment, because frankly, I don't want to spend a whole lot of time justifying myself to a bunch of junior people, right? Those characteristics help you and are a superpower at the junior level, but become a liability as you move up the corporate ladder. Because it's not just disagreeableness that is a feature, if you will, of a lot of people that have risen to the top. But there are elements of leadership that we're always looking for. And most of the time, leadership is not synonymous with being a follower, with doing whatever your boss says.

Leadership is about having an idea, having a vision that other people might not necessarily have, but convincing others that this is the way to go. Better beating the shit out of them with a stick and then disagree will listen, you win. Don't use violence, right? Well, don't physically use violence. I mean, unless you have to, but that's my policy. I'm just kidding. Don't do that, people. Those are jokes. Those are jokes. Don't write me. So I think you're right. There are elements of the East Asian culture that are really helpful. But one thing I want to be really clear on, and again, I'm kind of Captain Obvious on this, but sometimes I think it's worth saying, right? The people that are here in America, like me and my family that came here, right, we self-selected into the American way of life, right? We're the ones, my ancestors and my family are the ones who decided, I want to be American, right? I don't

want to live in China. I don't want to grow up in China. Like I don't want to be in an environment where that is the culture, right? The Chinese culture is very different from the American culture, right? So many of the characteristics that you see in America among Asian Americans are a blend of the two. But I always want to emphasize to people that may not be as attuned to Asian Americans is you have to remember, like my parents and my parents' parents and my parents' parents' parents, we self-selected to come here because we wanted the American way of life. We wanted the American way of doing business. We didn't want to do things the way they did back in the homeland. Are you sure you guys just didn't want Big Macs? I mean, I'm sorry. I went on younger until I realized what you're really putting in your body.

Yeah, no kidding, Frank and me. So this has been a great discussion. You've enlightened me in a lot of things, Dave, and helped kind of firm up some of my minds on some things. I like what you talked about with the team moving up. I've always just kind of thrown it as a general team or tribing up. But, you know, people need to realize, you know, I was talking about this earlier on Facebook. I mean, tribal business is a killer business. It's a hunter killer.

You know, our company is looking for IBM. We're looking to put HP out of business. Fuck those guys. We're going to kill them. And it's not, you know, official killer stuff, but we are. People are going to get hurt. Steve Jobs hurt people in Silicon Valley when he created that secret monopoly ban where he wouldn't let people, you know, they put a salary cap in and they wouldn't, uh, you know, hire other people from other shops.

That was evil as shit. That destroyed people's lives. Probably had an effect on marriage. It's probably an effect on a lot of people's lives. Um, it was pretty evil. That's killer shit. Um, but I like I've identified the disagreed agreeableness because I hear a lot of complaints about why people aren't successful in business

and, and you, it's a battle. You've got to realize it. And I get a lot of, I get a lot of feedback that like, we need more emotion in business. We need more egalitarianism. And I'm like, no, no, we don't. We don't all need to get along. We don't need participation trophies in business. In fact, that's one of the problems that we have in today's fucking world. People don't need participation trophies in business. In fact, that's one of the problems we have in today's fucking world. People don't realize that it's dog-eat-dog, it's killer, and you've got to play that game. So anyway, that's my take on it. Dave, it's been wonderful having you on the show. Please come back.

I'd love to have you back anytime and wrap up stuff. You've educated me a lot on what's going on with the experience in the corporate world. You know, Asian Americans have really taken just the worst abuse over the last four or five years, probably because of one guy. And, you know, it's just horrific, some of the things we've seen. So we need to put an end to that as well. I hope so. And, Chris, thanks so much for having me on your show.

And I'm happy to come back anytime. Anytime you want, my friend, anytime. So give us your plugs, your dot coms if people want to find you on the interwebs. Yeah, so again, you can just go to my website, liucrative.com, lucrative.com. You can find out all about me, my book, and then you can also ping me directly on my site. There you go. Check it out. The Way of the Wall Street Warrior.

In fact, that's kind of the battle thing we were doing. I didn't realize we were doing that at the same time. We're plugging the book, basically the warrior conquer the corporate game using tips, tricks, tricks, and smart cuts by David Liu. Thanks David for being on the show with us. Thanks so much, Chris. There you go. Thanks for tuning in.

Go to youtube.com and subscribe to the show. Hit that bell notification. It will give you this feeling that will wash over you of completion, pleading something today. You can just quit your job and go home for the rest of the day. After doing that, you have accomplished the pinnacle of your thing. Don't make that your pinnacle.

Jesus Christ. People go to good reason. Come worth this Christmas LinkedIn and all those other great places. We certainly appreciate it. Watch for upcoming reviews and interviews with CEOs at CES show. We just did my good friend Gary Shapiro on the show, the CEO of CTS. He was at the

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