The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Those We Throw Away Are Diamonds: A Refugee’s Search for Home by Mondiant Dogon

Episode Date: October 23, 2021

Those We Throw Away Are Diamonds: A Refugee's Search for Home by Mondiant Dogon A stunning and heartbreaking lens on the global refugee crisis, from a man who faced the very worst of humanity and survived to advocate for displaced people around the world One day when Mondiant Dogon, a Bagogwe Tutsi born in the Democratic Republic of Congo, was only three years old, his father’s lifelong friend, a Hutu man, came to their home with a machete in his hand and warned the family they were to be killed within hours. Dogon’s family fled into the forest, initiating a long and dangerous journey into Rwanda. They made their way to the first of several UN tent cities in which they would spend decades. But their search for a safe haven had just begun. Hideous violence stalked them in the camps. Even though Rwanda famously has a former refugee for a president in Paul Kagame, refugees in that country face enormous prejudice and acute want. For much of his life, Dogon and his family ate barely enough to keep themselves from starving. He fled back to Congo in search of the better life that had been lost, but there he was imprisoned and left without any option but to become a child soldier. For most refugees, the camp starts as an oasis but soon becomes quicksand, impossible to leave. Yet Dogon managed to be one of the few refugees he knew to go to college. Though he hid his status from his fellow students out of shame, eventually he would emerge as an advocate for his people. Rarely do refugees get to tell their own stories. We see them only for a moment, if at all, in flight: Syrians winding through the desert; children searching a Greek shore for their parents; families gathered at the southern border of the United States. But through his writing, Dogon took control of his own narrative and spoke up for forever refugees everywhere. As Dogon once wrote in a poem, “Those we throw away are diamonds.”

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Thechrisvossshow.com.

Here at Coney Road, we have a great podcast. We certainly appreciate you guys tuning in. So we're excited to announce my new book is coming out. It's called Beacons of Leadership, Inspiring Lessons of Success in Business and Innovation. It's going to be coming out on October 5th, 2021. And I'm really excited for you to get a chance to read this book. It's filled with a multitude of my insightful stories, lessons, my life, and experiences in leadership and character. I give you some of the secrets from my CEO Entrepreneur Toolbox that I use to scale my business success, innovate, and build a multitude of companies.

I've been a CEO for, what is it, like 33, 35 years now. We talk about leadership, the importance of leadership, how to become a great leader, and how anyone can become a great leader as well. So you can pre-order the book right now wherever fine books are sold. But the best thing to do on getting a pre-order deal is to go to beaconsofleadership.com. That's beaconsofleadership.com. On there, you can find several packages you can take advantage of in ordering the book. And for the same price of what you can get it from someplace else like Amazon, you can

get all sorts of extra goodies that we've taken and given away. Different collectors, limited edition, custom-made numbered book plates that are going to be autographed by me. There's all sorts of other goodies that you can get when you buy the book from beaconsofleadership.com. So be sure to go there, check it out, or order the book where refined books are sold. We had an amazing author on the show with us today. This is pretty cool.

I was excited to get his book and the early press copy and read it. To order it, you can go to wherever fine books are sold. The book title is called Those We Throw Away Are Diamonds. A Refugee's Search for Home just came out on October 12, 2021. Mondiat Dogen is going to be with us today to talk about his book and everything that went inside of it. He is a human rights activist and refugee ambassador born into a Congolese Tutsi family in the Bagwe tribe in North Kivo province. At age three, he was forced to leave his home village because the Rwandan genocide against the Tutsis spilled over into the Democratic Republic of Congo. Since 1996, he has lived in refugee camps. He holds a BA from the University of Rwanda and an MA in international education from

New York University. Welcome to the show. How are you? Thank you so much, Chris, for having me. Thank you. And did I get your first name right? You did. It's very important to me that we get all our names.

And like I said, I need to work on my French. Your French is really good. Well, pas de vous Francais. I don't know what that means, actually. So welcome to the show. Give us your plugs so people can find you on the interwebs. So I'm everywhere on social media, mostly on instagram my instagram name is moja okay there you go and then so you've got the new book coming out congratulations on the new book actually it

came out october 12th i'm just in denial that it's october i'm still in september so i'm just like no wait this year's almost over so what motivated to want to write this book? It seems obvious, but I'd love to hear your words on it. Thank you so much, Chris, for having me on Chris' voice show. I'm so happy. I'm so excited to interact with the audience. The reason why I wrote the book was because my life and the lives of people around me were a series of untold stories, and that's what motivates me to write a book. And also, I want to feel connected to the tens of millions of refugees searching the world for a home.

And with all those kind of reasons, I say, let me make a move and decide to write this book. This is awesome. There's a lot of people that have talked about immigration in this country, and people don't realize how important America's building, founding, and everything that America does is this melting pot concept where anyone can come here and be successful. And that's the dream. That's the vision of America. And people are willing to give up their lives to have the chance to come here.

And that really speaks to it. But also because we have other countries like China that have a much larger population than us, and they're not really interested in freedom. And they're going to beat us on the world stage one of these days because they are a much bigger marketplace like we used to be. And they certainly are keeping us up with us technology-wise. So I just want to lay that foundation for people who are out there who might be naysayers of immigration because some of our best people steve jobs and other people have been immigrants to this country the ceo of google grew up on a

dirt floor in india so this is the beauty of the american dream the american vision so welcome and give us in our overall well tell us what motivates you want to write the and give us an overall, tell us what motivated you to write the book or an overall arching thing on the book and what's inside. So my book talks about my memories back in the Congo. I was born in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, one of the most beautiful places on the planet. It's green everywhere, beautiful rivers, lakes. It was amazing. But my life in Congo, that beautiful life didn't last so long. In 1995, the genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda. Rwanda is a neighboring country of my country, Congo, so it spilled over into Congo. And Congolese Tutsis started targeting me.

Congolese Hutus and Rwandan Hutus, they started targeting and killing and killed the Congolese Tutsis. So that's the time with my family and everybody, particularly Congolese Tutsis, they fled Congo to Rwanda. So my book talks about those memories back in the country, Congo, before I fled. And also the experience of living in refugee camp for most of my entire life. And also a great opportunity I was given to come to America and how that impacted not only me, but everybody and the people. And the people I left back in refugee camp. One of the labels I really hate being thrown around with people

is they call people immigrants when they really should just call them human beings. We're all human beings. A mother or a father wants the best for their child and whether they want to come to this country or whatever they're trying to do, they're trying to do what every mother and child or father, mother, child are doing,

trying to give the best life to their kids. And so when people fault people or look at them as numbers or as not people, I think that's where we really fail. To give some background to this, if anyone saw the movie Hotel Rwanda, that was a fictionalized story. Not a lot of it. It wasn't fictionalized. It was a true story, some of the that was a fictionalized story. Not a lot of it. It wasn't fictionalized. It was a true story, some of the aspects that were fictionalized.

But it detailed the failure of the Clinton administration in trying to help the Rwandans out and everything that went on. Is that correct? No, I've never watched that movie, Hotel Rwanda. I never watched the Hotel Rwanda movie. But I met with a lot of people, Rwand, the Rana people, the survivors of Rana genocide. Yeah. A lot of them criticized that movie. A lot of, a lot of untrue stories.

Oh, really? Yeah. I think it's how Hollywood partially fictionalizes stuff, the drama, dress up. But technically, it was basically about how the thing came about and everything. And of course, sadly, as a country that didn't have any oil reserves there that we were interested in defending, we didn't step in and there was a real failure of the Clinton administration. So talk about the arc of your book and some of the details that you have inside of it and your journey. Let's talk about your journey.

My journey from where? From growing up in the Congo to coming to America. How did this journey take place? I think, as I said, I was born in Congo and in 1995, I fled my place, my ancestral home. I went to Rwanda. So I ended up in a refugee camp called Mudende. This Mudende refugee camp was like a transit refugee camp. We stayed there, and the refugee camp was attacked twice. So the massacres happened there. Two of my best friends, Alessia and Patrick, they got killed. And I witnessed all those murdering.

I saw how they were killed, my grandma, my auntie, and other friends of mine. And the people would stay, we lived in the same country together. And the UN and running government evacuated us from the refugee camp to the place where I spent most of my entire life, called the Gahanna Refugee Camp from 1997 until 2017 when I came to America for school, when I came to NYU. How bad did it get that drove you guys to the refugee camp? Did they come take your houses? What sort of activities were going on at that time? Yeah, the reason my dad, it was like a normal day like other days.

My dad went to the farm to look after cows. And around 10, my dad came back home seriously bleeding. And he told us how people, Hutus, were targeting him and how they wanted to kill him. And a few minutes later, his friend, his best friend, who was also Hutu, he came and said, Sadiq, Sadiq is my dad. I warn you, you have to leave this place. Otherwise, at 6 p.m., they will come and kill you. So my dad, my mom grabbed me and my young sister, Patience, and my siblings.

So they took us and went to hide in the forest near by the village. And you guys have a home there? You have a farm? You had abandoned all of that? Yeah, we had a really huge farm. My dad was the chief of the village, so we had a huge mountain, a huge land, home in Manhattan or New York City. We had a huge land, and we had cows as people.

As my father was the chief of village. Over the weekend, people, regardless their ethnic group, Hutus, Hundus, they came and they danced, they drank, we sit around fire. We didn't have electricity, we didn't have running water, but life was amazing. Life was beautiful.

I remember over the weekend, sometimes because my dad had married before and he had a lot of things, he was rich at the time. I had many of my siblings, a lot of my half of siblings and half of brothers and half sisters. So our home was sometimes super busy because everybody was there dancing, singing, and it was amazing. But everything we had that disappeared on the blink of eye in 1905,

everything disappeared. But we had a lot of things. Wow. That's just heartbreaking. So you enter the refugee camps. The massacres come. They're attacking the refugee camps. Where do you go from there? So after the refugee camp, after the massacres come, they're attacking the refugee camps. Where do you go from there?

So after the refugee camp, after the massacres, the UN and the Rwandan government evacuated us from that refugee camp because that refugee camp was very close to the border of Congo. So the Hutu crossed the border and came to attack the refugee camp. And after killing people, they went back to Congo, in the forest of Congo. So the government of Rwanda and the UN, they decided to evacuate us from that place, that refugee camp called Mudende, which was in the west of the country, to the north of the country, to the camp called Kihenwe.

This is amazing. Now, you entitled the book, Thosehenbe. This is amazing. Now, you entitled the book, Those We Throw Away Are Diamonds. Where does that come from? I grew up, I told you, I started my education. I hold my masters from NYU. I started my education in refugee camp. So since I was very young, I grew up, I met, I encountered this kind of limitation and

bias saying he's a refugee, he's a refugee. And when I went to college, instead of being able to be eligible for financial aid, they said, Dagon, we are so sorry. You are not allowed for financial aid because you are a refugee. So with all these limitations, I want to prove the world, to prove wrong the world, that, you know, those with our diamonds, we are people like everybody. We can do everything when we are given opportunity. We can unlock. And there's, yeah, these are human beings going through experience. And if anybody thinks

that they're above the fray, things can turn in any country, even America, things could, you know, go off the rails. You look how weird things got during coronavirus, where everyone emptied shelves all of a sudden. You're one collapse away from being in trouble yourself. And how we treat people is just unfortunate in this world and how we look at these sort of things. But of course, how we let monsters run around the world and do what we do in Syria. And then of course, in your areas of the country, Africa has a lot of different issues with all the different turnover that they have over there. So you find your way through perseverance to America. Did your family come with you? Is your family stay with you through your journey around? Or did your family, what was

left of your family separate? And how is that working out now? The way I came to America was like a miracle for me. After I graduated from the University of Rwanda in 2016, I tried to apply to every single nonprofit organization or these public and private sectors in Rwanda. But it was really hard for me because I had these talents of being a refugee. They said, I'm so sorry, Monty, we don't have a place here. So I decided, I said, okay,

I was fortunate to go to school. What can I do? So I started traveling from refugee camp to another camp to collect the stories of war and rape. And many of these stories were held particularly by women. So it was, they held them for so many years. So it was like uprooting the energy for me to,

I want to help these women to be able to share their stories because in refugee camp, nobody talks about what they've been through. So the silence itself, it was like a machete again. It was like a machete wound again. So for me, I said, I wanted Aline to find a way to share the stories of people and the people around me. So, and the UN and other people, the UN wrote my story. And one man from New York, the other side of the planet,

he learned what I was doing and said to God, I want to bring you to America for school. That's how I came to America as an international student. And there's a story that's in your book too about how you're in Rwanda and you go back to Congo

and that doesn't turn out very well. Yeah, I went there. After we fled my village in Congo, we came to Rwanda and we lived in this refugee camp. And my family and everybody, especially other people, they talked about Congo. They talked about how beautiful Congo was before, how amazing Congo was, how great Congo was.

And people started leaving in the past because before they had everything, they were rich. But when they came to the refugee camp, everything completely changed. So they talked really great things about Congo, but they never talked about something that pushed them out of Congo. So everybody in the refugee camp, especially young people like us, we leave, we say, okay, we want to see the beauty of our country instead of dying from refugee camp. Let's go back to Congo. So that's how my family, my dad, my brother, and I found ourselves in Congo. But for me, I didn't see the Congo, the beauty of Congo that my parents and everybody talked about.

Everything was killing when I went back to Congo. So it was completely different from the Congo I used to know. And you end up in prison, and the only chance they're offering you to be a child soldier. What was that like? So it was not my brother. My dad went to his village, and he got caught. He was that like? So it was not my brother. My dad went to his village and he got caught. He was jailed.

And my brother was being able to manage to go back into refugee camp in Rwanda. I stayed there. And the only choice was either to join the rebel groups or being killed. And at that time I was still going to school. And I said, okay, what can I do?

I had a beautiful bird called Blessings. And that bird, the people, the commander, the rebel commander came and said, come to the rebel base whenever you feel, or whenever you want to picking up the food for your bird. I said, it's fine. So

they built that connection. We built that connection. I built the connection with rebels. And that's how I finally ended up there as my home. So I, even when I went to school, I went to school, and from school, I went back to the Rebel base. So it was like my home.

Wow. Wow. That's crazy, man. And so you finally decided you got to get out of there, I guess. It was not easy to get out there, because if you try to leave that place and you got caught, you could be killed. So the rebel base was surrounded by a lot of different ethnic groups who were targeting.

So it was risky to take that risk and say, let me leave this place because I witnessed a lot of people. I saw a lot of some of my best friend of mine who tried to escape and court, and they were executed. I saw all these people. So everybody was very afraid of escaping. When I was there, a friend of mine, a friend of my dad, who came all the way from Rwanda, he came to rescue his son.

That's how, also, I was able to go with them and go back to meet again my family in refugee camp. There you go. Wow. It's just chilling, some of the different things that people go

through, they're immigrants. And sadly, you think we have resolved this by all these years, but it seems like we just don't do it. What are some other things you want to tease out from your book that you think would entice readers to pick it up and would interest them? Chris, the reason why I wrote the book, I think I tell people all the time whenever I go to speak at the UN or at any university in America, people, what I want people to know, I think that people, tens of millions of people,

searching the world for a home, at least listen to them, give them love, give them compassion, and be able to give the opportunity to these people. They fled their home for search of a better life. And these people are quite human beings. If we support, if we invest, if we believe in them, we can work, we can build together a world where everybody feels at home and feels at ease. That's the message. Most definitely.

America was always a melting pot of the most brilliant ideas and people. And there's no monopoly on great ideas. Like I say, I mean, most of the world right now revolves around something that Steve Jobs did with his mobile phone and the different businesses and all the stuff that he's created out of it. And his father was a Syrian. If his father had been allowed to immigrate to this country, you have to wonder what might have happened and how things might have been different. And we need to recognize that as a country. America was made great because it was a melting pot.

And certainly, we've got a dwindling population. For the first time ever, our population is actually going down. And we're not going to keep up with China. China is going to take us over. And we need more smart people. We need more smart people. We need more valuable people. And you never know where the next big idea comes from or the next person, whether they're working in any of the given fields.

I think you can also see the CEO of Chobani. He is from Turkey. He's also emigrated. So there are a lot of great people, as you said, like CEO of Google. There are great people from outside who are bringing a lot of innovation in the country. That's what makes the United States, I think. Yeah. And I believe some people that were involved with the coronavirus were also immigrants.

And the coronavirus vaccines were also immigrants. I'm going from memory, so. Go to the hospitals, nurses, doctors. We need more brilliant people. And anybody who hasn't read I forget the name of the book, but it has to do with the billion people in America by the Vox writer, I think Matthew

Galatius. But those of you who know what I'm talking about, you can Google it. He created Vox. But he puts a good thing forward about how really the only way we're going to be able to compete with China in the future is to open up our borders and to bring more people in this country. We actually have one of the best integration systems. For some reason, people integrate more into the American way of life. They bring their culture and their stuff, but they balance and mix with us better than they do in countries like France

and other countries in Europe where they don't mix very well. And maybe it's because people appreciate the American ideal. They love American stuff like McDonald's, which they probably shouldn't like McDonald's as much. It's bad for your health. Chris, something funny. During the World Cup in 2006, I think,

everybody, every young man, women, refugee camp where I grew up, Gihembe, everybody was supporting the United States. And when you ask them, they say, yeah, I'll be an American one day. I'll be an American. So people, a lot of people appreciate these American ideals out there.

They feel they can do everything for America. Yeah, you're right. It's unfortunate that people like me that grow up here, we tend to take it for granted. I think there was a time in my life where I took it for granted until about 9-11 and I went, wow, there's a world out there and what's going on?

A lot of Americans do that. They take it for granted because they've always had it. They don't think it's that big of a deal, but it really is. So I commend you on what you've done with your life and the drive and the chasing of goals that you've done to get here. And hopefully your journey will continue and you can become a citizen. That's what I hope. That's what I hope.

There you go. Anything you want to tease out before we go out? When it comes up, I think I'll... There you go. Anything you want to tease out before we go out? When it comes up, I think I'll... There you go. Guys, order the book up. Hand it to your friends, relatives, everybody. Really understand what's going on with the immigration and refugee system and how important it is these people come to our country

and get involved with what we're doing. And then, of course, help us build a better country because we need as many great minds and help as we can at this point. We're not pumping out engineers and new ideas like we used to. Our population is going down, which is the beginning of the failure of an empire, if you really understand history and empires. So we need more people. I know a lot of the refugees from Afghanistan came here just recently and the military is integrating those folks and finding ways to do them. So my friends in the military have been talking about that, and that's a valiant

effort as well. These are human beings. I see fathers and mothers when I see pictures of them crossing the borders into our country. All I see are fathers and mothers who want a better life for their children, and they're willing to give their life for it. And those are what our soldiers do when they go fight for the United States. So someone who's willing to give their life for it. And those are what our soldiers do when they go fight for the United States. So someone who's willing to give their life for this country, they should probably have a chance to get in here and do something great with it. Anyway, thank you for coming on the show. We certainly appreciate it and spending some time with us today.

Thank you so much for having me, Chris. Thank you so much. There you go. Give us your plugs one more time as we go out. Sorry, Chris. Give me your plugs, your dot coms where people can find you on the interwebs. Yeah, I think they can find me on Instagram or Facebook

or LinkedIn. It's Monty Dogon Official. There you go. Guys, pick up the book. Those We Throw Away Are Diamonds. Refugees Search for Home. And it's in a beautiful read. We are a copy here, a press copy. And check it out. It just came out October 12th, 2021. Also go to goodreads.com, Forge Has Crispoff. See everything we're reading and reviewing over there.

Go to Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, all those different places where the kids are playing and posting. And go to YouTube.com to see the video version of this as well. YouTube.com for Chess Chris Voss. Thanks for everyone for tuning in. Be good to each other, and we'll see you guys next time. Thank you so much. So we're excited to announce my new book is coming out.

It's called Beacons of Leadership, Inspiring Lessons of Success in Business and Innovation. It's going to be coming on October 5th, 2021. And I'm really excited for you to get a chance to read this book. It's filled with a multitude of my insightful stories, lessons, my life and experiences in leadership and character. I give you some of the secrets from my CEO entrepreneur toolbox that I use to scale my business success, innovate, and build a multitude of companies. I've been a CEO for, what is it, like 33, 35 years now. We talk about leadership, the importance of leadership, how to become a great leader, and how anyone can become a great leader as well. So you can pre-order the book right now wherever fine books are sold. But the best thing to do on getting a pre-order deal is to go to beaconsofleadership.com. That's

beaconsofleadership.com. On's beaconsofleadership.com. On there, you can find several packages you can take advantage of in ordering the book. And for the same price of what you can get it from someplace else like Amazon, you can get all sorts of extra goodies that we've taken and given away. Different collectors, limited edition, custom made numbered book plates that are going to be autographed by me. There's all sorts of other goodies that you can get when you buy the book from beaconsofleadership.com. So be sure to go there, check it out or order the book wherever fine books are sold.