The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Tom Clancy Rules of Engagement (A Jack Ryan Novel) by Ward Larsen

Episode Date: May 17, 2026

Tom Clancy Rules of Engagement (A Jack Ryan Novel) by Ward Larsen https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0593718097 Wardlarsen.com When a member of his Cabinet is killed in a plane President Jack Ryan suspects that the “accident” is anything but in this latest shocking entry in this #1 New York Times bestselling series. The White House is stunned when the Secretary of Commerce is killed in a plane crash in Turkey. President Jack Ryan isn’t ready to write this off as a simple accident. Not only has he lost a good friend, but the Secretary was on an important mission: on the surface he was making an appearance at an economic conference, but the CIA was also using the flight as cover to extract an important asset from the Middle East. Soon, Lt. Commander Katie Ryan and her team are working with the investigators to find the cause of the tragedy, but one shocking revelation changes everything. There were supposed to be 16 people on the plane, but there are only 15 bodies. The quest for answers will lead the team deeper and deeper into a quagmire of lies and deception that will force President Ryan to face an unprincipled enemy with global ambitions. About the author Ward Larsen is the New York Times bestselling author of eighteen novels. Code Zero, cowritten with Brad Thor, has been optioned for film by Netflix. He is also the author of Rules of Engagement, a Tom Clancy/Jack Ryan thriller. A former U.S. Air Force fighter pilot, Larsen flew twenty-two missions in Operation Desert Storm. He has served as a federal law enforcement officer, airline captain, and is a trained aircraft accident investigator.

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Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education role. roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Folks, Voss here from the X-Vos Show. There you go, ladies, gentlemen. They're all the least things. That makes official welcome to 16 years and nearly 3,000 episodes of the Chris Voss show,

because that's what we do here for all a lot of time and eternity. Go to goodrease.com, Fortress, Chris Voss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress, Chris Voss. YouTube.com, Fortress, Chris Voss, 1 on the TikTok. Continue an amazing young man on the show with us today. he is the newest author of the series Tom Clancy Rules of Engagement, a Jack Ryan novel that is out. Ward Larson is joining with us today, and we're excited to have him because we've had everybody but Tom Clancy on the show for some reason, but all the other authors. And for some reason, he just doesn't return our emails, Mr. Tom Clancy.

I'm not sure why, but he seems like a good feller. And so we're going to be getting into it with him. This book just released, I'm trying to find my release date. at some time this month that it came out. Next Tuesday and the 19th. There it is. May 19th. It's all over the Amazonium. So we're going to get into it with Ward.

Ward is the New York best-selling author of 18 novels. Code Zero, written with Brad Thor, has been optioned for film by Netflix. He's also the author of the aforementioned book, and he's a former U.S. Air Force fighter pilot. He flew 22 missions in Operation Desert Storm and he served as a federal law enforcement officer, airline captain, and is a trained aircraft accident, investigator. Welcome to the show. How are you, Ward? I'm doing well, Chris. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming. We really appreciate it. Give us any dot com's websites.

Where do you want people to find out more about you on the interwhips? It's just by name, Ward Larson with an E. So, Ward, tell us what's the 30,000 overview? What's a aside this new book? Yeah, it's the latest Jack Ryan book from Tom Clancy, that series. It starts out with an airplane going down, commercial airliner crash, actually a civilian government airliner crashes. And it is investigated by the Navy, among others, in the State Department. And of course, there's more of the crash on VTI. It goes down in Bodrum, Turkey, place I've been to. A very cool place. Yeah. And so that's where it starts.

And, of course, there's more to it, all of the meets the eye. Is it a high suspense thing in Turkey where you get new hair plants or lip filler? That seems to be a big. You know, Bodrum's a very cool place. I was there about a couple years ago. And I had never been there, never really been any of smaller cities in Turkey. And they had a very cool harbor. They had all these, like, 65, 70-foot yachts that were all hand-built, wood.

They were all different. They're charters. I guess it's a big sailing charter. But I never knew that, but a very cool place. I think you go there for veneers too or something. I don't know. Dental work. Yeah.

Yep. I hear they're not so much. I don't know if they have a lot of turkeys there, but maybe they do. I don't know. I'll have to find out. So now the plane goes, did you say the plane goes down, right? Plain goes down. Yes.

I don't know if you remember a long time ago, back in the 90s, there was a crash. Commerce Secretary Ron Brown was flying a diplomatic airplane into. Bosnia and his airplane went down. Crashed, everybody died. And it turned out to be just a crash, you know, there were some mistakes made and they were in the weather and in the terrain. But for a long time, it was a question of, you know, was there something to various involved? And I guess that stuck in my writer's brain and is the seed of an idea. Now, we talked in the bio that plane crashes or investigation are kind of up your alley, right? Yeah. When I was in the Air Force, I went to their accident investigation school, and it was really some interesting stuff, you know, that you learn how to

basically facilitate an accident investigation, because, you know, when a civilian airliner goes down, the NTSB takes over, but the military does their own investigations, these sort of respective services. So they train officers and pilots to do the operational side of it and to get involved in the investigation. So you really learn the whole spectrum from engineering to operations to weather, you know, what kind of stuff can go wrong. And, you know, they give you some, they have a laboratory, as they call it. Basically, it's just a field where they set up some crash debris exactly as it was. They were real crash. I said, you had to go out there and kind of figure out what went wrong. So this is your first book with the series. Is that correct?

It is. Yes. First Tom Clancy book. What was it like approaching this? You have your own series we'll get into and talk about it in a second book that you've written. But what was it like being chosen for this role. Well, it's a great honor to be chosen. I mean, this series is going on for a long, long time. And the writers that came before me, Mark Greedy and Mark Cameron and Andrews and Wilson, I know all those guys are really good guys and excellent. But, you know, it's a little intimidating to come into this series with so much background. You know, there's so many movies and they'll be in fun. You know, there's a JackSaw Ryan series right now going on. So it's one of the most, probably the most enduring, you know, Thriller's series out there. I really, you know, it was a lot of

work just to get you know keep a lot of that backstory straight i'm doing book number 27 and plus there are other series alongside at the jack ryan junior so there's a lot of background and there's a lot of there's a big readership and you don't want anything wrong because they will let you know yeah they will let you know it's uh did you when you were growing up or somewhere in your youth did you was tom clancy something that books were something or stories that were movies that were something that influence your entrance into being an author? How did that play out? Yeah, I mean, I don't think it really, when I was, when I read the Hunt for Red October, his first book back in 84-5, I had just gotten in the Air Force. I was just in college. And yeah, at that point, I had no inclination of writing, but I was a big reader.

Every writer I've ever known was a reader first. Yeah. Yeah, I was blown away by that book. It created a whole new genre, the military thriller. So it was really something I remember. I remember that story. And to think that I'm writing it so many years later is very special. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's pretty crazy. I think some of the people that are written for Tom Clancy, I'm thinking about all the interviews we've done for the series,

for all the series, I guess, when you count the junior. And, yeah, some of them, I mean, Tom Clancy was their first idol, their first person that they were just like, wow. And then to be writing either with Tom or after Tom is just quite a thing. Tell us a little bit about yourself in your series and some of the other work that you do on your stuff. Yeah, I started out with a book called The Perfect Assassad. And that was my first book. I was published by a small publisher and did fairly well, although it took a while to kind of catch on.

So I did in the meantime, after I did that, I did a few other books, primarily a three-books series about aircraft accident investigation, which was kind of close to my heart. And it was sort of a police procedural thing with a former military pilot who did. some accident investigations and always found something beyond that a simple crash. It was always something more to it. But then the perfect sass started doing better and better. So that was picked up by McMillan and I've been writing that series. About 10 books into that series.

And most recently with a book called Dark Vector, which came out last year, I kind of advanced that to sort of a spinoff series where the original character is David Slayton is still in it. But I've got a new guy kind of taken over sort of a pro-tebrose. Jay that he's taking on a new green guy that gets thrown into the mix and thrown into the deep end and he swam. And you got, you said 10 books out under that series or the whole different things you're doing? Yeah, the site series is about 10 books deep and then I'm starting a spinoff, which I'll be doing

the second book in that series for next year. And there's kind of alumni of you guys that write these types of novels. A lot of you guys have military backgrounds. and you write which you know, so that kind of contributes to it, right? Yeah, it's kind of interesting, this Clancy series. So the main Clancy series, Mark Reedy actually wrote with Clancy for a few books, and then he took it over after Clancy passed away. But Mark's an excellent writer, and then Mark Cameron took over.

Now, Mark was a law enforcement background. He was a U.S. Marshall. And so you can kind of see that in some of his books. There's more of a law enforcement emphasis. And then when Andrews and Wilson took it over, they're both Navy guys. So there was a lot of big naval battles in their books. And now I'm taking over, and there's more flying in this one because of my aviation background. And I think that's actually good for the readers because you get a little bit of a mix.

You know, it's still all basically a Jack Ryan book and the same types of plots. But you get that kind of flavor of certain emphasis from certain writers. And the next one is going to be written by Mike Woodward, N.P. Woodward. And he's a Navy intelligence officer. So he's going to bring his, you know, aspect of it. Yeah. I noticed this is book 27 and 28 and I'm like, ah, they've announced it. In fact, I think there was one time we had some of the Tom Clancy folks on the show.

And I found the announcement of the next book that was coming out like six months later or something. And they're like, yeah, that's not supposed to be on Amazon, man. That's not even supposed to be out. I'm like, I'm looking right at it. I can see the cover. And they're like, yep. I think it's a nine month cycle, a nine month cycle for the main series. And then they put in the junior ones in between that.

So yeah, they put out a lot of books. Yeah, but people love these books. They consume them. They think it's crazy. Now, I don't know if you can talk about the hook that's in this book. There were supposed to be 16 people on the plane that goes down, but only 15 bodies are found. That's not too much of a spoiler. It's kind of near the beginning.

So this airplane goes down. And in the last few books, the kids, Jack Ryan's kids, Katie and Kyle had kind of been featured. So I kept them in. They're not a main focus. This is more of a John Clark book. But Katie Ryan, it turns out there's a Navy officer on this airplane that goes down. So the Navy wants some oversight on what's going on in the investigation. So they send Katie over there.

And she's in the neighborhood. It just so happens. And one of the first things that they find out is they've got, you know, manifest with 16 people on it, but they only come up with 15 bodies. So that's the beginning of the mystery right there. So they know something's a little fishy. Something's fishy. That other guy.

He must have gotten the rapture or something, maybe. I don't know. I don't think that's in the book. You know, you write about aircraft disasters. What do movies and TVs get wrong when they, you know, you see him write about stuff like this in the movies? Well, let's see. That all pilots are good looking. Yeah, it's, you know, oh, I know one of my pet peeves is you get the somebody will shoot a gun on an airliner that's up at altitude and the bullet will go through.

And you get the massive depressurization event. That's not how it works. Really? Oh, not at all. No. Those airplanes all have holes in them. In fact, they do. They all have little, you know, seams and holes and airplanes are constantly leaking air. In fact, there's what's called an outflow valve at the back of the airplane that's always open a little bit. And that's things about the size of a laptop computer. That's the size of it. And it's always modulating open and closed just to keep the pressurization. but the pressurization, the air conditioning pushes air, over-pressurizes the airplane,

so that you're always over-pressurized. So, yes, you can't have rapid depressurizations of an airplane, but it takes a much bigger breach than a simple bullet hole. If you look out an entire window, then that might do it. But it's not quite, and usually if you do have a rapid depressurization, it's a very quick, almost instantaneous event. And the first thing you get is missed. You'll see a fog.

because you've got that human air inside the cabin that suddenly loses 50 degrees. So you get like a real quick fog that dissipates real quickly. But that's what really happens. Yeah. I mean, you see a lot of that example of that in the TV. There's lots of movies, I guess, where something gets blown open and whatever. Now, you flew a lot of combat missions, worked in law enforcement, flown commercial aircraft, and investigated crashes.

Do all those real-life experiences out playing into writing for the book? Yeah, absolutely. I see a lot of, you know, just things happen and you can adapt. And I think also just getting the relationship between amongst the crew members, right, getting the verbiage right, making it sound correct. I think that that was a big help. And, you know, the same token, you know, I had some scenes in this book, a Rules of Engagement that took place on a ship. And I made sure I went, because I never worked on a ship when I was in service. So I made sure I went and talked to Natives. guys and send them those chapters and say, hey, look, is this sound right when the captain's talking to the petty officer? And you go, yeah, or I'll make this change. You know, I'm kind of writing to what I know when I write about the aviation stuff, and I think I can make it float. But if I write about other things, I try to make sure I have it right. Yeah. And Turkey is kind of an interesting place in how it works.

It kind of seems to bridge itself between. It's not a Victor. Orb. Who runs Turkey? Turkey. Erdalon. Erdogan, yeah. I haven't heard about him in a long time.

He used to be top of the line. I don't know what they're up to over there. But no, Turkey's easily into a lot of different things. I think they're usually playing both us and our enemies against each other. Yeah, yeah, that's a very interesting country. It is east versus east meets west. I mean, you sail up the middle through Istanbul and the city is split in two, and one side is Asia, one side is Europe.

So it's really the crossroads. And you look at the right side of Turkey, and you're talking about Syria and Iran, places like that. Iraq, it's really borders up some, some of the really hardcore Muslim countries, whereas the other side, you've got Europe. We had the big, you know, migration of refugees back five, 10 years ago, that's where a lot of them went through. To get to Europe, they went through Turkey. Some of them just walk through. So yeah, it's a real crossroad. And it always has been. That's nothing new. That's been going on for thousands of years. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how these things play out. So you deal with the CIA.

this. Was there some research you needed to do? Or have you had a lot of experience in your action with the CIA and extraction and stuff like that? That really comes more from just reading that genre of fiction. I read a lot of books with the CIA, both fiction and nonfiction where I read about the CIA.

I do have friends who work there if I need to do a fact check on something here or there. But you ask about the JFK thing? No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. Not yet. I don't know what that's about. I just figured I'd throw it as a joke. Don't take me a secret prison, folks. I'll get picked up or something.

Is there a moral dilemma or dimension in this book? There's kind of a lot of that in Jack Ryan books. Yeah, there always has to be because that's where Jack Ryan really comes. And he's present. He's the guy you're counting on to make those right decisions. And so certainly. And also in this book, his kids are not deeply involved. They're not put immediately at risk because that's happened a few times lately and you don't want to do that every book where you're putting his family at risk. But still they're in their neighborhood and he's kind of counting on his family to on his daughter in particular to help get him out of this mess just with her professional. means. And he's, you know, at this case, it's the United States versus Russia, but he doesn't really know who's responsible for this thing. And that's kind of a question for a long time through

the book. And he's got to make those calls. And he's got Mary Pat Foley by his side to bounce all this off and as he's had for so long. So yeah, it's a lot of time with Jack Ryan spent in the situation room trying to figure all this out. And also a little time at home with his family. Yeah. Family's kind of whole part of the Jack Ryan's story, right? It gives It is, yeah. Family, duty, country. That's always been the Jack Brown thing. And I wasn't going to change that in one book. For readers who've never read a Jack Ryan novel before, is this standalone pretty good if they start with this one? Yeah, it's always designed where you can read it as standalone. I don't know how many people are out there who haven't read Tom Plenty book, but there's someone somewhere. But yes, it's always written to be where you can written out of standalone.

What we do, though, is I've coordinated with Andrews and Wilson and also with Mike Woodward, who wrote books before and after me. And we, it's not a continuous story, but we throw little Easter eggs in there where, you know, the previous book will mention just one or two things that kind of lead into mine and then mine into the next. So we kind of have little clues as to what's coming in the next book. I was going to ask you about the Easter eggs, so you got me there. What separates a good military thriller? from a great one, do you think?

Yeah, I think it's always in the characters. You really have to get the reader invested in the characters. Like the Huffer Red October, I mean, because a lot of people read that one, I think that that submarine captain really, you know, Mark Arabius was really, grab a lot of people, you know, and is he the protagonist or antagonist or both? I don't know. But just the way, right off the bat, you know, he just seems like the Soviet sub-commander, and all of a sudden he kills his political officer just out of the blue.

That was like, oh, what's going on here? but so you really get invested in that in that character trying to figure out what he's up to so yeah that's what really grabs readers i think it's not so because you know clancy is famous for the technology for all the gadgets yeah but you know he i will say he wrote a couple books that really over relied on that that i think little turned people off just a little bit where it's just so much you know action and gadgets that you know you didn't get invested in them characters but the majority of them you do and especially the jack ryan books yeah sean Conry. What a great. That movie was just so spectacular. I mean, there's more lines from that movie. Yeah. I, I always think of, oh, who's the, who's the famous actor from Star Wars? John Paul Jones? I'm saying the line, Mother of God. And I think, I think I got the name right there. But he says the name, Mother of God. And just the way he delivers it, James Earl Jones. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Harris Harrison Ford. If I think of Jack Ryan, you know, in a movie, that's what I think of is Harrison Ford. Alex Baldwin played him nicely. Man, yeah, Baldwin was really good looking when he was young. And when he wasn't shooting people on set, no, just kidding. That's a joke, folks. Don't write me. Don't write me.

But, you know, I mean, Harrison Ford and when he was in Apocalypse now, when he's so young, he just looked kind of like, holy shit, he was a baby. But, you know, these movies are just people love them, and they love the stories in them. They love, you know, finding from the country and all that good stuff and the suspense that goes into them. And so it's, it was it a little daunting to take it on? How was your first emotions when you got chosen for this and, you know, maybe a little bit of, boy, this has got to make sure I do this right or otherwise I'm going to get a hate mail.

Yeah, very. Oh, very, you know what I think you put the pressure on yourself because you know what a big deal it is. You know how, how big this series has been. And so, yeah, I think you put the pressure on yourself. to get it right. So I took a little longer to write this book. I definitely had more research involved, not so much in terms of the research for this book, but the research in the previous books to make sure I get all the characters straight and the details that I do use relating to those characters

are accurate because it's famous. You know, people ask, you know, what do you do for a living? And I tell, oh, I write books. What kind of books? Military Thorewers. Oh, like Tom Clancy. And now that's what they've always said. And now I can say, why yes is a matter. just like Tom Clancy. Oh, I mean, what a great honor to be a part of this series. We've had so many of the great authors on that are written for it, except for Tom. I guess we started the podcast. We didn't get him on before or whatever.

I never met him. I wish I had been able to meet him, but I don't know. I think one of the authors we've had on started working with him. Mark Reedy was working with him. Yeah, it was Mark. I think it was Mark. Yeah, that was working with him. And he grew up.

I think his first book was the Tom Clancy book. If I'm remembering the right, Tom Grady. Clancy author on the show. And I mean, just what an amazing thing. It's like it's like growing up listen to Led Zepp. And then they ask you to join their band. Exactly. They need a new bass player. Yeah. So now with your series that you have on the books that you write, anything forthcoming, anything in the future coming up for you. Yeah. I had what come out last year, but then I've been doing, I did this book with Brad Thor this year and then I did the Clancy books. So that really took up a lot of time. But my next project is one of my own. It's going to come out next year. Don't have a

title just yet, but that'll come out late next year. And it's going to be the second book in this true Miller series I'm doing that I'm spinning off from the original. So yeah, we've got some good feedback on the first one, and I think it's going to be a good, fun book. When did you start writing? When did you kind of know you figure out the yet an act for it? Yeah, I was always a reader, but which every writer I've ever known was to begin with. But I never really thought. about it as some you know profession certainly or even doing it for a hobby until i got with the airlines and then i just i think i read a bad book one day that just didn't grab me at all i thought i could do better than that so i just got a got a laptop and started tickering with it and after about

three four years i got it done i just did it on my overnight at the airline because i had a fair time it was you know better than some of the things i could have been doing on over I used to spend a lot of time drinking in the airline lobby. They're like, your plane's laid two hours. I'm like, go to the bar. And then I think I almost fell asleep and missed one because I was drinking too much. Because, you know, airline tribal now has gotten so fun, exciting. So it's almost a military Jack Ryan experience just to now be TSA now, I think.

You mentioned four hours of lines and I guess the software is bad and all the TSA things, or Tia, whatever, towers or some weird shits going on. I don't understand it. But it's a weird world right now. I just swim everywhere. That's what I do. Or drive. Driver swim.

So that's what we have coming out for you in the future. And then do you see yourself maybe writing future books for the Tom Clancy series as they go through? Oh, that's a possibility. I know the editor. I think this one turned out pretty well. But really it's just normal of his scheduling. Because I am going to do another book with Brad Thor.

So that's kind of on the books right now. So I'm just kind of tied up. But yeah, that door is open. It may happen someday. I think readers are going to really like this one. I think it turned out well. It's interesting how, you know, most entrepreneurs, their first experience was something or, you know, a product that they or service that

they don't like. You know, they innovate and they go, I could do this better and I can figure out how to do ways to do it. And it's kind of wild. You know, your whole military background, you know, you were able to read that book that you didn't like and you're like, I can do this better. and then you can, then you make something better. I mean, it's just, it's just great that you had that military background experience

where you could do it. And, you know, some of these folks that come on the show, their authors, a lot of them, you know, they've have experience in different things. And then one day there's an aha moment where they write. What do you use to be a consistent writer on this scale? Do you write minimum hour or day? Do you lock yourself in a lodge somewhere in the Montana woods? How do you approach writing every day so that you're on point?

Yeah, I'm not flying anymore. So that helps a lot. So I'm not on the road, you know, for three or three days a week. So that's good. I write every day. I just try to write at least six days a week. I write and sometimes seven. And just try to write three or four hours every day.

And usually it's, you know, write for 45 minutes and then go do something different, kind of get ready to rest and just do that. But that's one of the nice things about writing. you do it on your own schedule. And I don't have a set number of words I try to get every day. I just try to do something every day. Yesterday I had a nice long chat with Brad Thorne because we're working on this book. So that's part of it too.

When you're co-writing, we've got to kind of coordinate with the co-writer and so things like that. But, yeah, I've gotten into the groove of it. I guess we'll have to live with the fact that not all pilots are good looking and don't look like Tom Cruise and everybody from Top Gunn, I guess. It turns out I can be a pilot then. So I'm ugly. You'd be great. I don't know. You know, there's so much stuff that pilots go through with all that, you know,

you got to do the pre-flight check and stuff. And I know how I am and how lazy I am. I'd skip it and I'd end up killing myself and everybody on the plane. I'd just be like, eh, I'm sure it'll be fine. It flew and it'll fly out. Yeah, it's got wings, you know. You just go fast enough. It'll take air.

And then I'd be like, how do you land this thing? Yeah, that'd be bad. So that's why you'll never hear me on the commercial thing. This is Chris Fos, your pilot. Maybe I should just do that on the podcast. Yeah, go ahead. Give me your pilot. You're a PA.

What are you going to say to? Yeah, yeah. What's my pilot license number 8675309? Anyway, award, anything more you want to tell us about what's coming in the future and what you're up to? Yeah. We're going to do one, a book event here next Tuesday at the Oxford. Exchange in Tampa. You can learn more about that and on the release of the book and where you get it. Brousal Engagement. It's at my website, wardlarsen.com. Thank you very much for coming on. We really

appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me, Chris. Good talking to you. Thank you. And we'll look forward. We'd love to have you on for the other series that you do, your personal one. And anything else you're up to. Just come on and just come on and just say hello. You know, what are you up to? And you're like, I'm just having a burger right now, Chris. And there you go. Thanks, Ward. Thanks for minutes for tuning in. Pick up the book, wherever fine books are sold. called Tom Clancy Rules of Engagement, a Jack Ryan novel out May 19th, 2026. Check it out. Thanks for much for tuning. Go to goodreads.com, Fortresschusch, Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, Fortresschusch, Chris Foss, 1 on the TikTok, and you know all those crazy places on the internet. Be good at each other. Stay safe.

We'll see you next. You've been listening to the most amazing, intelligent podcast ever made to improve your brain and your life. Warning. Consuming too much of the Chris Walsh Show podcast can lead to people thinking you're smarter, younger and irresistible sexy consume in regularly moderated amounts consult a doctor for any resulting brain bleed all right ward great job wonderful stuff there i will have this up in a few days and all that good stuff there'll be an email that comes out to ask if you want to copy